Mink damage vs hybrids

[tolinwiz]

Hi everyone,

I often hear that monks do far more damage than hybrid classes (paladin/sk). What are the mechanics leading to this? Higher skill caps? Does this not become relevant until 50+?

Assuming a 32\36 on the paladin, what pushes the monk so far ahead?

Thanks!

[Cecily]

Having two arms and/or a mini backstab button (kick). Also higher offensive cap. Triple attack will put them further ahead in later patch.

[jpetrick]

Dual wield, better 2 handers with the ability to weaponswap, higher offense, access to more +attack items and flying kick.

[tolinwiz]

I apologize if this is all obvious, but my google-fu is failing me.

Anyone have any parses for DPS at different levels between the classes? Or a general calculator for all weapons/classes/variables?

[Fragged]

It's mostly based on the underlying damage calculation table. Monks and warriors are currently on a far superior damage table than hybrids. In one of the upcoming patches knights will be moved to this damage table, but monks will be moved to a separate and even more superior damage table. At this point (combined with triple attack) monks with ntov weps started doing the same DPS as rogues on live. The addition of triple attack was the icing on the cake, but nothing more than a 4-10% dps increase.

[maskedmelon]

Different damage tables and lower skill caps. Hybrids don't start REALLY eating shit on dps until their skills freeze at L40 though. They are not made for dps though ^^ They've a very specific role that they fill very well ^^

[Ivory]

SK's can dot + have pet + fear kite (increasing their DPS potential) ...and paladins can heal other people or root / stun for CC (actually decently).

So, it isn't all about raw DPS.

Monks are nice, but they are one trick ponies! They can FD and hit stuff....but don't have access to bows or other ranged options for taking down stuff that is harder than they can directly out-tank / dps.

[jolanar]

Different damage tables and lower skill caps. Hybrids don't start REALLY eating shit on dps until their skills freeze at L40 though. They are not made for dps though ^^ They've a very specific role that they fill very well ^^

Ya level 40 is when skill caps stop raising until 50s and that's when you REALLY start to notice the difference in DPS.

But even beyond lower skill caps and weapons with worse ratios, there is a hidden damage table that hybrids/knights are on that means even if they were wielding the same weapons at the same skill caps they would do less damage. On top of all that there is flying kick which does a significant amount of damage over normal bash/kick.

[Jimjam]

Basically monks are better at everything given the same stats, but often have access to things with better stats / higher skill caps.

The only exceptions to this are 1) they don't get as much HP per Sta as some classes, 2) AC is harder to collect (but still possible to cap) and 3) they can't taunt. They don't get spells, but their abilities don't require mana.

Oh and there is the weight penalty thing, which is actually a bonus if you stay light.

Monks are a great class for a lot of content / play styles.

[Loke]

Monks are nice, but they are one trick ponies! They can FD and hit stuff....but don't have access to bows or other ranged options for taking down stuff that is harder than they can directly out-tank / dps.

I don't know if I'd call possibly the most over powered class in the game a one trick pony. Sure, if you just consider innate aspects of the class they might be a bit more one dimensional than casters, but when you consider the wealth of gear and clickies available to them, you add a whole new aspect to the class. Just like rangers can't quad without a wuoshi bow, when you start talking about wort pots, reapers, slow stones, etc, you realize why a monk's over poweredness goes beyond the fact that they're a class that rivals rogues in DPS and non-disc'd warrior in tanking.

[Ivory]

Most OP class in the game? When did we start talking about enchanters and shamans? :o

[Cecily]

Minks most OP.

http://i.imgur.com/kmtK9EQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jZ6GAZf.jpg

[tolinwiz]

Minks most OP.

http://i.imgur.com/kmtK9EQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jZ6GAZf.jpg

I wish I had some clever reason why I typed mink in the threat title. Fat fingered phone press doesn't count.

Thanks for the information everyone, all questions have been answered.

[EQBallzz]

I wish I had some clever reason why I typed mink in the threat title. Fat fingered phone press doesn't count.

Thanks for the information everyone, all questions have been answered.

I dunno but I bet it has something to do with why you put it in the threat title.

[Loke]

Most OP class in the game? When did we start talking about enchanters and shamans? :o

Let me know when an enchanter or shaman solos ragefire. Sure, monks and warriors need strong item clickies and good gear to do it, but that isn't much different than the few hundred thousand plat in spells and gear shamans need to solo big mobs. Over all farming enchanters and shaman may be better, but I don't think either can compete with the high difficulty of mobs a monk or warrior can solo with the right set up.

[Raev]

Let me know when an enchanter or shaman solos ragefire. Sure, monks and warriors need strong item clickies and good gear to do it, but that isn't much different than the few hundred thousand plat in spells and gear shamans need to solo big mobs. Over all farming enchanters and shaman may be better, but I don't think either can compete with the high difficulty of mobs a monk or warrior can solo with the right set up.

Warriors and Monks are for sure amazing, but Ragefire is a terrible example. The vast majority of NPCs in EverQuest have neither 100% magic immunity nor Dragon Roar. Plus Hokushin and Detoxx are probably the two best geared melees on the server; you can't seriously compare buying torpor, malo, and canni IV to multiple Vulak/AOW loots. And while I could probably do Ragefire on either my warrior or monk I'd rather bring one of my shaman/cleric pals than burn 10K in clickies.

[Loke]

Warriors and Monks are for sure amazing, but Ragefire is a terrible example. The vast majority of NPCs in EverQuest have neither 100% magic immunity nor Dragon Roar. Plus Hokushin and Detoxx are probably the two best geared melees on the server; you can't seriously compare buying torpor, malo, and canni IV to multiple Vulak/AOW loots. And while I could probably do Ragefire on either my warrior or monk I'd rather bring one of my shaman/cleric pals than burn 10K in clickies.

I don't disagree that it is a bit of a ridiculous example, but it does highlight how monks and warriors can do a lot more than people assume with the right preparation. I mean, Svenn's use of puppet strings to solo Portector back in the day wasn't any less impressive because he used strong item clickies imo, but even with the clickies I doubt a shaman or ench would be able to solo RF.

My whole point was to refute the claims that a) monks are one trick ponies and b) monk aren't arguably the most overpowered class in the game. Obviously there are situations where shamans or enchanters are better, but there are also situations where monks are better. I mean, you could even make an argument thay bards are the most OP class because how fast they can level, but that is just one aspect of the game.

Like I said in previous posts, monks may be more straight forward than other classes, but their dmg output, avoidance and mitigation do imo make them arguably the most OP class right now.

[Ivory]

Ya, monk can solo ragefire....

But can they camp A4 solo? Or casually take down WW dragons? :P Not typically without burning a bunch of money on wort potions at least.

Sure monks are strong.....nice mix of DPS and tanking potential (same with warrior). But level 60 sk are strong too.....or rogues....or rangers....or....lots of things.

Slightly more efficient DPS and FD isn't really game breaking. Team up with a healer or someone and the thing is going to die sooner or later no matter what you are.

Or for normal soloing (without burning potions), monks don't really outshine other classes at all. They have a very limited window of what they can hunt and run into a hard limit of their power potential.

Where as something like a ranger or sk can go far beyond that upper limit because of how different they are mechanically when using their abilities to do something other than tank and spank.

But that is more smaller group stuff. In a larger group yea monks fill a nice role....decent defensive and great offensive. So, the same group...one has a monk tanking, one has an SK tanking....I would rather take the SK.

The monk does add very slight increase to groups DPS....and can pull better....but the SK and Paladin adds ability to insta-taunt (which in a group at higher end, is prettyyy important). If it is ONLY about the DPS, then sure monks are nice....but, again, when taken in the context of the entire group, it is just a slight increase in the efficiency of stuff dying (though warriors and rogues keep up at level 60, with rangers just a little behind).

So, OP? Nope. They are decent. But things like shamans and any class that can charm just break the game higher end (would you rather have a monk DPSing? Or a charmed enchanter pet? quadding for 300? :P))

[Raev]

Enchanters and Shaman are great for stomping easy stuff. When the going gets tough, you need pure melee.

[delfi]

Warriors and Monks are for sure amazing, but Ragefire is a terrible example. The vast majority of NPCs in EverQuest have neither 100% magic immunity nor Dragon Roar. Plus Hokushin and Detoxx are probably the two best geared melees on the server; you can't seriously compare buying torpor, malo, and canni IV to multiple Vulak/AOW loots. And while I could probably do Ragefire on either my warrior or monk I'd rather bring one of my shaman/cleric pals than burn 10K in clickies.


You can definitely solo RF on your monk/warrior Raev. Would be easy and wouldn't come close to 10k of clickies. Not sure where soloing a lvl 54 mob became the standard for awesome melee...any melee can do it with preparation and clicks.

[Damn]

Ya, monk can solo ragefire....

But can they camp A4 solo? Or casually take down WW dragons? :P Not typically without burning a bunch of money on wort potions at least.

Sure monks are strong.....nice mix of DPS and tanking potential (same with warrior). But level 60 sk are strong too.....or rogues....or rangers....or....lots of things.

Slightly more efficient DPS and FD isn't really game breaking. Team up with a healer or someone and the thing is going to die sooner or later no matter what you are.

Or for normal soloing (without burning potions), monks don't really outshine other classes at all. They have a very limited window of what they can hunt and run into a hard limit of their power potential.

Where as something like a ranger or sk can go far beyond that upper limit because of how different they are mechanically when using their abilities to do something other than tank and spank.

But that is more smaller group stuff. In a larger group yea monks fill a nice role....decent defensive and great offensive. So, the same group...one has a monk tanking, one has an SK tanking....I would rather take the SK.

The monk does add very slight increase to groups DPS....and can pull better....but the SK and Paladin adds ability to insta-taunt (which in a group at higher end, is prettyyy important). If it is ONLY about the DPS, then sure monks are nice....but, again, when taken in the context of the entire group, it is just a slight increase in the efficiency of stuff dying (though warriors and rogues keep up at level 60, with rangers just a little behind).

So, OP? Nope. They are decent. But things like shamans and any class that can charm just break the game higher end (would you rather have a monk DPSing? Or a charmed enchanter pet? quadding for 300? :P))

R u off ur fkn meds??

[Jimjam]

If we take consumables out of the equation that SK has no drink/mana. Or arrows. That SK becomes a poor warrior with no left hand and a stinky fart every couple of hours. Instead of defensive.

[Lowako]

monks have pretty insane tanking capacity for a not warrior class. they probably have the best tanking capabilities aside from a warrior using disc. high avoidance and high mitigation, plus stonestance discipline (12 sec duration, 60% mitigation, 4 minute reuse), and mend. tstaff proc is also quite good as well, long duration stun that is unresistable. whats not to love? they're also one of the better dps classes in the game, aside from good charmed pets and rogues. also "FD isn't really game breaking" makes me wonder if we're playing the same version of everquest.

Going through a few old parses, monks seem to demolish any SK/Pal in DPS, even monks that are busy not attacking the boss because of pull management. Maybe rangers can compete in DPS with the proper weapons (possibly trueshot discipline? dunno if its been parsed a ton), but no hybrid is even gonna come close to the mitigation and avoidance monks have. Sure, they have much better snap aggro, but so do a lot of classes.

I understand that ivory truly wants people to respect/realize the potential of hybrids, but no amount of dark voodoo secret magic or skill or whatnot is going to change the fact that monks outdps/outmitigate/outpull sk/pal/rangers. I suppose ranger/SK get the advantage of being able to fear/bowkite certain stuff, but monks can solo some neat things with limited clickies (efreeti comes to mind). However, monks seem to have more options, and more lucrative duo/trio options than hybrids.

tldr; monks are beyond good in this goofy game

[Fragged]

The ability to drop off an agro list completely is the single most broken skill in this game. Full stop. PERIOD. Combine this with tools like puppet strings, bladestopper and beads and you have an unfathomable amount of plays you can make. UNFATHOMABLE - You will still be learning secrets to the trade years after you started your monk, there simply is that many.

Other than that you have a class that tanks as well as a warrior when the warrior has plate amor and the monk has leather. In relation to that statement, how well do you think monks are doing in late game Velious when they start getting 40ac on every armor slot?

Lastly but not least if you compare the only 3 classes on a good damage table, warrior monks and rogues. Monks just get NUTS weapons, where rogues get utterly shafted, have sub par ratio weapons in late game and being forced to use Epic for the longest time to maintain the ATK bonus, monks on the other hand can keep the ATK bonus and swap in two 15/18 fists. This closes the DPS gap between monks and rogues ALOT (I often outdps rogues) - And mind you the monk does not need anyone to tank for him or to be hitting from behind.

[jolanar]

Ya, monk can solo ragefire....

But can they camp A4 solo? Or casually take down WW dragons? :P Not typically without burning a bunch of money on wort potions at least.

Sure monks are strong.....nice mix of DPS and tanking potential (same with warrior). But level 60 sk are strong too.....or rogues....or rangers....or....lots of things.

Slightly more efficient DPS and FD isn't really game breaking. Team up with a healer or someone and the thing is going to die sooner or later no matter what you are.

Or for normal soloing (without burning potions), monks don't really outshine other classes at all. They have a very limited window of what they can hunt and run into a hard limit of their power potential.

Where as something like a ranger or sk can go far beyond that upper limit because of how different they are mechanically when using their abilities to do something other than tank and spank.

But that is more smaller group stuff. In a larger group yea monks fill a nice role....decent defensive and great offensive. So, the same group...one has a monk tanking, one has an SK tanking....I would rather take the SK.

The monk does add very slight increase to groups DPS....and can pull better....but the SK and Paladin adds ability to insta-taunt (which in a group at higher end, is prettyyy important). If it is ONLY about the DPS, then sure monks are nice....but, again, when taken in the context of the entire group, it is just a slight increase in the efficiency of stuff dying (though warriors and rogues keep up at level 60, with rangers just a little behind).

So, OP? Nope. They are decent. But things like shamans and any class that can charm just break the game higher end (would you rather have a monk DPSing? Or a charmed enchanter pet? quadding for 300? :P))

Somebody has been drinking too much of their own koolaid.

[Ivory]

Really? There are monks that casually solo camp 22 at A4 in POM?

I would loveeeee to see it. Because the entire time I've been there.....I've never seen anyone attempt it.

Seen solo druids, enchanters, necros, and shamans do it....but never a monk come along and clear it out.

"Could" a monk do it? Sure. They could burn through some healing items (as could ANY OTHER CLASS). But could they do it without a serious plat investment as just normal hunting? Not even close.

[delfi]

Really? There are monks that casually solo camp 22 at A4 in POM?

I would loveeeee to see it. Because the entire time I've been there.....I've never seen anyone attempt it.

Seen solo druids, enchanters, necros, and shamans do it....but never a monk come along and clear it out.

"Could" a monk do it? Sure. They could burn through some healing items (as could ANY OTHER CLASS). But could they do it without a serious plat investment as just normal hunting? Not even close.

I believe people were commenting on your including monks and rangers/SKs in same league. Not that monks can out solo shaman/charmer against any content. They obviously can't.

Monk isn't going to solo 22 without an insane amount of clicks, he has huge MR and he dunks hard even slowed.

[Lowako]

Really? There are monks that casually solo camp 22 at A4 in POM?

I would loveeeee to see it. Because the entire time I've been there.....I've never seen anyone attempt it.

Seen solo druids, enchanters, necros, and shamans do it....but never a monk come along and clear it out.

"Could" a monk do it? Sure. They could burn through some healing items (as could ANY OTHER CLASS). But could they do it without a serious plat investment as just normal hunting? Not even close.
Rangers may solo better, but thats not the only criteria for a class being good. Add more people and the monk becomes much, much better

[Ivory]

I believe people were commenting on your including monks and rangers/SKs in same league.

It is strange how people get into this hyper min/max mentality, where a slight difference in DPS and efficiency in killing a mob is what makes a class good or not.

10 people on a raid, let's say overall DPS is 300 (average 30dps each) (but usually in a raid you will have more, so the percentage goes even further down)

A monk joins in, he is UBAARRRRR with 45dps!!! ((but likely the dps isn't really close to double of a rangers equally geared, but I'm being really generous))

Overall dps is 315 now.....an entire increase of 5%. So, a fight that would have taken 360 seconds....now takes 343 seconds .....

In everquest terms, it doesn't mean much (especially higher end raids where more often than not you have way overkill). The mob is still going to die, in 360 seconds or 343 seconds.....everyone still gets pixels....

Is that really the definition of uber we are talking about? :P Ranger, monk, paladin, SK....all uber enough if you gear it and get the high end weapons. Play what you like, put in the time and get gear, and you can "compete" at the high end (IE play a decent role in DPSing the thing down).

I would be really curious to see an SKs dps with pet compared to a monks though. Anyone have numbers to back up their claims on uber monks?

Personally I like paladins / rangers a lot since they are handy off-healers and CC (helps if things get crazy to be able to root off of an enchanter or patch someone). I've saved many a person with just ranger heals :P

[Raev]

Soloing 22 is not exactly the ultimate goal of this game.

[Ivory]

Was just a random example of a farm camp :P

I never saw monks down camping frenzied ghoul in guk for FBSS either.

The point is just monks are nice....but they aren't crazy uber best DPS in the world and best tankers 10/10 would monk again. They have a nice mix of abilities, but they aren't banana kings of EQ.

[nyclin]

No they're just the best non-disc tanks in the game while bringing 50-65dps, self-heal, and FD. Monks are disgustingly OP and not even in the same league as SK/PAL or RNG in terms of tanking ability or mechanical potential.

And yes, time-to-kill absolutely matters in high end raiding. You aren't killing AoW or Tunare if your clerics run OOM before the DPS can finish it. 17 seconds could be the difference between a wipe and success.

[Lowako]

It is strange how people get into this hyper min/max mentality, where a slight difference in DPS and efficiency in killing a mob is what makes a class good or not.

10 people on a raid, let's say overall DPS is 300 (average 30dps each) (but usually in a raid you will have more, so the percentage goes even further down)

A monk joins in, he is UBAARRRRR with 45dps!!! ((but likely the dps isn't really close to double of a rangers equally geared, but I'm being really generous))

Overall dps is 315 now.....an entire increase of 5%. So, a fight that would have taken 360 seconds....now takes 343 seconds .....

In everquest terms, it doesn't mean much (especially higher end raids where more often than not you have way overkill). The mob is still going to die, in 360 seconds or 343 seconds.....everyone still gets pixels....

Is that really the definition of uber we are talking about? :P Ranger, monk, paladin, SK....all uber enough if you gear it and get the high end weapons. Play what you like, put in the time and get gear, and you can "compete" at the high end (IE play a decent role in DPSing the thing down).

I would be really curious to see an SKs dps with pet compared to a monks though. Anyone have numbers to back up their claims on uber monks?

Personally I like paladins / rangers a lot since they are handy off-healers and CC (helps if things get crazy to be able to root off of an enchanter or patch someone). I've saved many a person with just ranger heals :P

Using raids isn't a particularly great example, throw enough bodies at anything and it will die. But, sticking to this scenario, you can achieve 300 dps with 6.7~ monks, or 10 hybrids, but who cares because either way they're gettin crushed in damage by rogues. But wait, this is a raid and you need people to split and pull the raid monsters. And hybrids simply cannot pull as effectively as monks. Also, at the "high end" sk/pal are competing with bards in terms of dpsing the thing down, and thats just raw melee, not considering everything else a bard can do.

Tune that group size down to a duo, the monk is now adding a 50% damage increase, wowza. On top of this, monks are vastly superior tanks, and will take much less damage than equally (or even better) geared hybrids. Even in 6 man groups its a pretty significant benefit. Healer mana when doing stuff with smaller numbers becomes even more important, so being able to mitigate damage better becomes huge.

Rooting things off of healers is valuable, but literally everyone can do that if they carry root nets (which most people have no reason not to, very cheap to recharge, 0.1 wt, instant cast). While technically not a part of the monk class, every monk (and rogue, and everyone really) should try to carry some of those for those "oh shit" moments. Besides, if you are good at being a monk you probably wont need to root things off the healer anyways.

The usefulness of FD, mend, and being the best tank (aside from warriors in disc) in the game cannot be stressed enough. While hybrids arent as abysmal as most think, you are really selling monks raw power short. Also, the reason you rarely see a monk doing something like frenzy or goofy pom shit is because they can find a healer friend (playing with others in an mmo!) and do things that are much more fun/effecient/lucrative. Play what/how you want in this game, but no amount of gear/skill/technique is going to change the core game mechanics.

[Ivory]

Play what/how you want in this game, but no amount of gear/skill/technique is going to change the core game mechanics.

Gear changes the expected core game limitations of classes. It lets you do crazy stuff like try to make a caster tank. Though the higher up you go, the less you are able to break stuff like that.

[Ivory]

are you trying to be contrarian or are you just genuinely stupid?

You better watch out!! My dad can beat up your dad!!!!

[maskedmelon]

Monks can also level to 60 naked while doing all of these things.