France Asserts Women's Right to Wear Clothes

[maskedmelon]

In a ruling praised by International Social Justice Hero League, Amnesty International, the French judiciary has upheld the right of women to clothe themselves by overturning bans in dozens of French municipalities much to the chagrin of local officials who had instituted the bans in the interest of public safety.

Prime Minister Manuel Valls refused to acknowledge the very serious war in which France was engaged while continuing to pander to affected jurisdictions by reaffirming that public safety was indeed at the forefront of the (overturned) discriminatory legislation.

Having proudly denied women the right to anonymity in 2010, France now struggles to advance its anti-woman agenda in 2016 year of the monkey, while trying to distance itself and obfuscate the eerie similarities between this legislation and the recent deplorable conduct of British law enforcement in treatment of clothed female beach patrons.

All of this as another international player across the pond is poised to install the first (alleged) vagina in its highest office. Is there no refuge for smoldering torch of Liberty?

Source (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/frances-top-court-suspends-burkini-ban/ar-BBw5zYj?li=BBnb7Kz)

[Jarnauga]

I spznd a great deal of time here crticizing the us, so it's all fair:

I was ashamed as a french to see some mayors and city policemen actually asking women to change their outfit, glad the conseil d'etat told them to go fuck themselves. Obviously the mayor of nice is a right wing asshole who's known for putting more cameras than anywhere else in france for "security"..

As far as i'm concerned, the law was perfectly fine: you can wear whatever you want in the streets except if it covers your face.

[Jarnauga]

l’arrêté litigieux a ainsi porté une atteinte grave et manifestement illégale aux libertés fondamentales que sont la liberté d’aller et venir, la liberté de conscience et la liberté personnelle.

Even had to fucking quote the constitution. Fucking dumbasses.

[entruil]

are you allowed to wear religious symbols in public? or just not in public schools?

i think it's cool how you can only wear helmets in specific situations.

[Jarnauga]

Not in public schools and it's only for "ostentatious" signs. I.e you can wear a cross necklace or a star of david if you want, but no kippa or hijab or stuff like that

[bdastomper58]

france the real racists

[Spyder73]

france the real racists

I eat Freedom fry's with my triple bacon burger Frenchy

[bdastomper58]

I eat Freedom fry's with my triple bacon burger Frenchy

extremely good post im shocked wowza!

[Daywolf]

http://i.imgur.com/oze1YnB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bv4QAYG.jpg


Trump 2016

[AzzarTheGod]

In a ruling praised by International Social Justice Hero League, Amnesty International, the French judiciary has upheld the right of women to clothe themselves by overturning bans in dozens of French municipalities much to the chagrin of local officials who had instituted the bans in the interest of public safety.

Prime Minister Manuel Valls refused to acknowledge the very serious war in which France was engaged while continuing to pander to affected jurisdictions by reaffirming that public safety was indeed at the forefront of the (overturned) discriminatory legislation.

Having proudly denied women the right to anonymity in 2010, France now struggles to advance its anti-woman agenda in 2016 year of the monkey, while trying to distance itself and obfuscate the eerie similarities between this legislation and the recent deplorable conduct of British law enforcement in treatment of clothed female beach patrons.

All of this as another international player across the pond is poised to install the first (alleged) vagina in its highest office. Is there no refuge for smoldering torch of Liberty?

Source (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/frances-top-court-suspends-burkini-ban/ar-BBw5zYj?li=BBnb7Kz)


Country wide? What the fuck. You should specify the ban was intended to only apply to beaches, some of them nude beaches.

Going to a beach fully clothed and headscarfed just makes you a fucking weirdo. Why should they be allowed to enturbulate people and make them feel bad at the beach?

The beach is about trust and openness, being able to see other peoples bodies and you all share it together (seriously). If they keep wearing full garb at the beach and headwraps there could be violence.

[R Flair]

^ridiculous.

Anyone that tells you what you can wear anywhere is fucked imo. Not defending muslims and their burkinis, I'm defending common sense. I think they should round all the muslims up and ship their asses out because their religious is fundamentally dangerous and irreconcilable with most western idealogies, but people should be able to wear whatever the fuck they want, anywhere they want to.

[Jarnauga]

^ridiculous.

Anyone that tells you what you can wear anywhere is fucked imo. (...) people should be able to wear whatever the fuck they want, anywhere they want to.

You know it's not that simple.

Plenty of businesses have a dress code for example. It actually happened in france when a muslim woman was hired to care for young children. She started to wear a full islamic veil and refused to take it down when asked to, so she was fired. She went to court and lost, because laicity (in france at least) is not applicable in private businesses.

The school thing is different, it's pretty much tied to how we consider school in france. i'm not gonna talk about the history of the republican school, but basically it's supposed to be the place where origin, wealth or religion shouldn't matter. Universities have a higher degree of independance, and some allow to wear muslim scarf or kippas, etc.

As far as i'm concerned, i don't care if someone working in an office on the phone/computer all the time wears a hijab or some fucking flipflops. But when you actually have to deal with customers, businesses have every right to ask you to respect a certain dress code.

The beach thing is fucking dumb. A beach is a public place, and you should be able to wear anything you want. As long of course as it's respecting laws about decency, etc. (and even that, it's pretty lax in france lol.. boobs out everywhere and nobody cries about it)

The whole thing is just a way for the french right to get some public attention. I never ever saw a burkini in my whole life, and i live 30 mins away from one of the nicest beach in france. I also never saw any burqa, saw some hijabs, but not much. I went to school with a girl that used to wear a scarf over her hair, but could still see ears and neck. 99,9% of arab girls i see in the streets are definitely like that left one. (http://i.imgur.com/GzksG8V.jpg)

But yeah, unemployment, economic growth, etc.. let's not talk about that. Let's talk about what women wear. After all presidential elections are next year, gotta instill the fear of the foreign in the elector's heart. (does that remind you of anything..? :rolleyes: )

[AzzarTheGod]

You know it's not that simple.




יש שפע של עסקי קוד לבוש למשל. זה באמת קרה בצרפת כאשר אישה מוסלמית נשכרה לטפל בילדים צעירים. היא התחילה ללבוש כיסוי אסלאמי מלא וסירב לקחת אותו כאשר ביקש, אז פוטרה. היא הלכה לבית המשפט לאיבוד, כי laicity (בצרפת לפחות) אינו ישים בעסקים פרטיים.

דבר הספר שונה, זה פחות או יותר קשור לאופן שבו אנו רואים ספר בצרפת. אני לא הולך לדבר על ההיסטוריה של בית הספר הרפובליקני, אבל בעצם זה אמור להיות המקום שבו ממוצא, עושר או דת צריך לא משנה. יש אוניברסיטות רמה גבוהה יותר של עצמאות, וחלק לאפשר ללבוש צעיף או כיפות מוסלמיים, וכו '

ככל שזה נוגע לי, לא אכפת לי אם מישהו עובד במשרד בטלפון / מחשב כל הזמן לובש חיג'אב או כפכפים מזוינים. אבל כשאתה באמת צריך להתמודד עם לקוחות, יש עסקים כל זכות לבקש ממך לכבד קוד לבוש מסוים.

דבר החוף הוא מזיין מטומטם. חוף הוא במקום ציבורי, ואתה אמור להיות מסוגל ללבוש מה שאתה רוצה. כל עוד כמובן כפי שהוא כיבוד חוקים על הגינות, וכו '(וגם זה, זה די רופף בצרפת חחח .. ציצים החוצה בכל מקום ואף אחד לא בוכים על זה)

כל העניין הוא רק דרך הימין הצרפתי כדי לקבל קצת תשומת לב הציבור. אף פעם בחיים לא ראיתי burkini בכל ימי חיי, ואני גר במרחק 30 דקות מאחת החוף הכי יפה בצרפת. אני גם אף פעם לא ראיתי כל הבורקה, רואה כמה חיג'אב, אבל לא בהרבה. הלכתי לבית הספר עם בחורה כי נהגה ללבוש צעיף על השערה, אבל עדיין יכול לראות אוזניים וצוואר. 99,9% של נערות ערביות אני רואה ברחובות הם בהחלט כמו [URL = "http://i.imgur.com/GzksG8V.jpg"] שהותירה אחד. [/ URL]

אבל כן, אבטלה, צמיחה כלכלית, וכו '.. בואו לא נדבר על זה. בואו נדבר על מה נשים ללבוש. אחרי הכל הבחירות לנשיאות הם בשנה הבאה, צריך להחדיר את הפחד של
:rolleyes: )

Thing is, beaches are a place of openness and represent Western values.

Why should that change? Just because of an idea you made up? Cultural Marxism?

Very (((weak))) rationale here. Burkas on beaches, then we should also protect freedom of speech to yell fire in a theater.

[R Flair]

A dress code in a place you work is one thing. Enforcing a dress code on the general public by the government is a bad thing.

Also don't buy this beach values bullshit. Beach is no different than any place else. Claiming people have to respect some sort of western beach values is total bullshit. Its just a public place like any other.

Again, don't care about muslim rights per se, but I do care about decisions regarding them that may infringe on my personal liberties. For that, I think telling people they can't wear a burkini is an obvious bad choice.

[Jarnauga]

A dress code in a place you work is one thing. Enforcing a dress code on the general public by the government is a bad thing.

Also don't buy this beach values bullshit. Beach is no different than any place else. Claiming people have to respect some sort of western beach values is total bullshit. Its just a public place like any other.

Again, don't care about muslim rights per se, but I do care about decisions regarding them that may infringe on my personal liberties. For that, I think telling people they can't wear a burkini is an obvious bad choice.

i never thought i would say that ever, but i totally agree with you

AzzarTheDumb: http://www.ouest-france.fr/bretagne/lannion-22300/des-soeurs-dominicaines-sinvitent-la-plage-732822

props to the guys that went to the beach in their moto suit too:
http://i.imgur.com/m3VtEUj.jpg

We're fucking invaded by islamimz /s
http://i.imgur.com/lQnVu7V.jpg

[entruil]

http://i.imgur.com/lQnVu7V.jpg

thats one way to get open borders...

-

i just wonder why this is news... i get why it's bazonker's but... the state of emergency is more troubling, is it still going on?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_emergency_in_France says it is....


'Proclaiming the state of emergency gives exceptional powers to the Minister of the Interior and to prefects. The Minister can pronounce house arrests. The prefects can regulate or forbid circulation and gathering in some areas: the power of curfew, which mayors can pronounce for the territory of their city independently of the state of emergency, is extended to prefects.'

'On 13 November 2015, immediately following a series of terrorist attacks in Paris, and presently ongoing. As of 23 July 2016, almost 3,600 houses had been raided, under the state of emergency, and five of these raids led to a terrorism-linked judicial investigation.'

so they let a bunch of people in to cause craziness and then institute Bigger Bro and General Warrants?... is this verifiable?

[entruil]

it is verifiable and i find the bullshit dancing aorund this idea innapropriate ... i'm sorry if i cause your country that is democratically socialist to reject the principles of private property and self-determination....

stand up (lay down in the case of the assed-out moto-bike civil disruptors who displayed themselves in their own self-made ovens for cooking on the beach)....

Twista - Adrenaline Rush album (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7P64lclf7Y)

it's no wonder why im ignored most of the time... but ... im really not tryin' to kill this place even if thats my order...

more like, wake up, pay attention, see the views that are outside of MY range....


welcome jarnauga because if we don't we will suffer the same wrath knowing or not...


heow... so much for leavin the lime out... damn.... DAMMIR... (throwbakc shoutouts to t0y,bot, spirit , caustik, ryu, yea ill stop.... flo got the most, we decide but , nothing about now, here , today.

[R Flair]

Attacking someones clothing is just a bitch-made roundabout way of condemning a religion/culture that threatens their laws and values. They should grow a pair and address the real issue instead of making up stupid rules that also restrict and infringe on the rights of their "normal" citizens.

But this is the french we're talking about, so growing a pair is probably out of the question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft9rCXsYCpY

[entruil]

its more than religous abridging....


its more to me about freedom of association... why else would they create a law for it... ok its france so i'm learning and for real from the beginning knowing i could never get down with bernie so ... oh wait


its the frnech... FUKC your right... i will say that it all appends to USA tho... as soon as trump and nanny Rodham are included then we already knew so anything here is past tense... hence why im here... im surprised im still able... these are those times...

[R Flair]

I'll ask again, do you prefer rape for your daughter or a betrayal of Western values to protect yourself from the savages you were too weak to resist allowing within your borders? These, or God forbid, physical removal of immigrants who belong to cultures that are statistically more likely to be unable to assimilate (includes physical removal of people who do not deserve it), are your options.
How does banning the burkini protect anyone? Are we to assume that because muslim women aren't able to wear it, that all muslims, both men and women, will simply opt out of visiting the beach?

Again, this is just passive aggression when direct aggression is needed. This is just people helplessly lashing out.

Assuming that banning burkini's actually does somehow magically prevent muslims from going to the beach and therefore groping women (which is asinine), no I still wouldn't support it. Not unless the law read:
Any muslim found wearing a burkini will be arrested and deported, and also any muslim found anywhere regardless of attire will likewise be deported.

They need to deal with the root of the problem, not the symptoms.

Taking away the rights of the general populus is always done in the name of protection. In this case, they need to protect the people from those who are threatening them, not create a cause for further civil disturbances.

[AzzarTheGod]

ur right, but u also don't have the hungry eyes and fingers of dozens of creepy savages touching your loved ones with enmity for their wanton driving them to temptation (remember, it's their fault for tempting them to rape by being uncovered).

Like everything you say is objectively true thru the lens of Western values, yet having dozens of people from a wacky sex cult in bondage gear on a beach where women are typically scantily clad is asking for trouble. This is more or less the reason mormons were driven into the wilderness back in the day. Certain bizarre domineering sex cults are just not compatible with open civilization when they are allowed to form parallel societies (individual units are much less dangerous).

I'll ask again, do you prefer rape for your daughter or a betrayal of Western values to protect yourself from the savages you were too weak to resist allowing within your borders? These, or God forbid, physical removal of immigrants who belong to cultures that are statistically more likely to be unable to assimilate (includes physical removal of people who do not deserve it), are your options.

This. The Burkini is downright fucking anti-social. I don't care if its associated with a religion. Its antisocial like wearing an open trench coat to the grocery store or market and letting your dick hang out. You are supposed to be clothed at a store, beach you are not clothed.

Those bikers are fucking retarded I'd kick sand straight into their face, I hope they are wearing goggles.

[R Flair]

It makes it uncomfortable for sex cultists to go to the beach and denies them the ability to contrast uncovered heathen women deserving of forced impregnation with good girls in bondage themed swimming gear. Keeps sickos out of a place where some degree of civility is required.

You're right about everything, and that direct aggression is the real solution. The problem is that you do not have the option in your so-called Western democracies.

You must let the savages in, that is not optional, but if the consequences bother you enough you may choose to erode the rights of every citizen to mitigate them. This is the meaning of "democracy" in the modern era's information matrix. There are traitors among us and there's only one fitting penalty.


You're right, nothing we can do - currently. Still, I don't see this as a worthwhile deterrent as all it will really do is strengthen their position as an "oppressed minority", resulting in more protection via our bleeding heart liberal parties both here and in France.

Honestly the best thing to do is wait until people get fed up, giving the savages no excuse to lash out and no cause for activism on their behalf. Eventually they will become so abhorrent in the eyes of normal people that the powers that be will be forced to act or die.

Targeted oppression will only serve to delay that outcome.

[AzzarTheGod]

You're right, nothing we can do - currently. Still, I don't see this as a worthwhile deterrent as all it will really do is strengthen their position as an "oppressed minority", resulting in more protection via our bleeding heart liberal parties both here and in France.

Honestly the best thing to do is wait until people get fed up, giving the savages no excuse to lash out and no cause for activism on their behalf. Eventually they will become so abhorrent in the eyes of normal people that the powers that be will be forced to act or die.

Targeted oppression will only serve to delay that outcome.

I can agree with some of this.

The talk you were on earlier a page ago was borderline (((R Flair))) though I thought (((Jarnauga))) had gotten to you.

[R Flair]

This. The Burkini is downright fucking anti-social. I don't care if its associated with a religion. Its antisocial like wearing an open trench coat to the grocery store or market and letting your dick hang out. You are supposed to be clothed at a store, beach you are not clothed.

Those bikers are fucking retarded I'd kick sand straight into their face, I hope they are wearing goggles.

Dude, you are on the wrong side of this. Who are you to decide what is sociable and where we must do it? I don't know about you, but i live in Murica where we aren't "supposed" to do anything anywhere we don't care to.

[AzzarTheGod]

Dude, you are on the wrong side of this. Who are you to decide what is sociable and where we must do it? I don't know about you, but i live in Murica where we aren't "supposed" to do anything anywhere we don't care to.

Maybe you just aren't intimately familiar with the institution of beaches in general and aren't partial to care about it.

Yeah we're not supposed to, but you are talking about injecting dark ages culture into my beach and calling it enrichment. Doing whatever you want has limits under the constitution.

You cannot yell fire in a crowded theater. You cannot make written threats, and verbal threats are also becoming criminalized quickly.

Freedom of speech and expression has a history of only being acceptable in this country when its the norm, and jives with Western values. This is why you can't invoke freedom of speech and expression in all circumstances.

We had this tiff already over pornography in the 80's and early 90's with the John Stagliano criminal indictment. It took time to determine whether there was a legal basis for the case and what the definition of obscenity was. Until the burkini goes to the Supreme court, I'll stand my ground.

I maintain I am on the right side of this. I believe in limits.

[R Flair]

To what end though? Are we going to convince them of our supposed enlightened ideals of equality and freedom through legislation of beach apparel?

Just that you are trying to connect beachwear to public endangerment is a nutso argument. Think about that for just a second. Think about the importance of our basic liberties covered under the Bill of Rights compared to the insignificance of social norms regarding 21st century fashion.

[AzzarTheGod]

Really tough to argue that being fully covered is comparable to screaming fire. You could say lack of face visibility is a security risk, but fuck that I have the right to anonymity in public if I'm not being stopped for something.

Problem is you can't take the obvious correct course of action without betraying principles. Incompatible cultures.

Must limit intake such that assimilation occurs, regardless of how low that requires the rate to be.

What of the existing bans on masks and facial covering in most US cities? Im not aware of how that is being handled in the US.

Most major states/cities have a ban on face masks (including sentencing upgrades for crimes committed with a full ski-mask/face mask), and including laws the expressly ban the wearing of a full face mask/ski mask. This ban is circumvented by criminals seeking to avoid the "ski-mask" law by using a bandana around the lower half of the face, which prevents the sentencing upgrade from being applied as the language of the law in LA views a partial face covering as legal afaik.

Just an example of the complexities of "mask law" and was wondering if anyone knows if a full burka is even allowed in these states and cities?

[phacemeltar]

used to be the day that the general focus how not to starve, freeze to death, or will we be able to survive animal attacks... now the biggest concern is recreational beachwear... humanity is doomed

[fash]

Remove the people with the incompatible culture and 99.9% of the burkini problem goes away. Removing problem populations (or blocking immigration) isn't against western values nor US's past behavior. It's against modern egalitarianism values (modern, as in since 1965 Immigration Act for US, maybe a few decades earlier elsewhere).

[Lojik]

Clearly this opens the door for Muslims to create a sharia law state on one of France's beaches. I predict they will call the nation Burqini Faso.

[Jarnauga]

ITT i learned that my women friends were raped daily and that we had sharia on beaches

http://i.imgur.com/26J7Yud.png
http://i.imgur.com/7fQQbBh.png

May i present to you the terrorists that rule france and try to impose sharia these days /s:

Minister of education, Najat Vallaud Belkacem
http://i.imgur.com/ShtMsMM.jpg

Minister of work and employment, Myriam El Khomri:
http://i.imgur.com/m6xpBiv.jpg

you can definitely feel the sharia law coming out of their eyes

[Nihilist_santa]

ITT i learned that my women friends were raped daily and that we had sharia on beaches

http://i.imgur.com/26J7Yud.png
http://i.imgur.com/7fQQbBh.png

May i present to you the terrorists that rule france and try to impose sharia these days /s:

Minister of education, Najat Vallaud Belkacem
http://i.imgur.com/ShtMsMM.jpg

Minister of work and employment, Myriam El Khomri:
http://i.imgur.com/m6xpBiv.jpg

you can definitely feel the sharia law coming out of their eyes

This post really opened my eyes.

http://i.imgur.com/S2DbQ7c.jpg

[fash]

ITT i learned that my women friends were raped daily and that we had sharia on beaches

http://i.imgur.com/26J7Yud.png
http://i.imgur.com/7fQQbBh.png

US is 60% non-hispanic white.
Scotland 90%.
France 85%.

You posted this same image earlier. Did you forget already? :)

[Jarnauga]

http://i.imgur.com/mo35UoT.jpg

[Jarnauga]

US is 60% non-hispanic white.
Scotland 90%.
France 85%.

You posted this same image earlier. Did you forget already? :)

oh i thought it was about some religion that made you rape people, but i forgot, sorry, it's about some gene that makes you rape people, got it..

[fash]

oh i thought it was about some religion that made you rape people, but i forgot, sorry, it's about some gene that makes you rape people, got it..

As ethnic diversity increases in a community, trust decreases. Lower trust societies have higher crime.

Also, 2013 fbi crime data (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43): Rape rate for US black population 2.8x higher than white population. That includes hispanic whites though. Would be worse if fbi separately reported hispanic whites and non-hispanic whites to use in comparison.

[Jarnauga]

So wait.. i heard countless times that france was basically africa and that we were raped in the streets, but now thati provide you with some data that show it's not the case, because we're all white ?

i definitely get why you guys don't care about trump flip-flops..

[fash]

So wait.. i heard countless times that france was basically africa and that we were raped in the streets, but now thati provide you with some data that show it's not the case, because we're all white ?

i definitely get why you guys don't care about trump flip-flops..

The white population % is from 2004. Your rape stat was from 2009. For all I know, they've both skyrocketed since then due to cultural enrichment (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKDeyuM0-Og). I can't get anything more recent than 2004 since "race" basically means "death camp" in France.

[Jarnauga]

The white population % is from 2004. Your rape stat was from 2009. For all I know, they've both skyrocketed since then due to cultural enrichment (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKDeyuM0-Og). I can't get anything more recent than 2004 since "race" basically means "death camp" in France.

what do you think ? immigration to france is strictly restricted since the 70's, most of what you call "arabs" are descendants of people that emigrated after the world war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_France

[fash]

what do you think ? immigration to france is strictly restricted since the 70's, most of what you call "arabs" are descendants of people that emigrated after the world war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_France

So you agree France is mostly white, and that the disparity in rape rate vs US is due to ethnic diversity in the US. :)

[Lojik]

Rape and race are only 1 letter difference, basically the same word! They have to be related

[fash]

Rape and race are only 1 letter difference, basically the same word! They have to be related

Try saying/typing race rape rate three times fast.

[AzzarTheGod]

US is 60% non-hispanic white.
Scotland 90%.
France 85%.

You posted this same image earlier. Did you forget already? :)


How is France maintaining 15% more non-Hispanic white than us?

US politics make a lot more sense now.

[R Flair]

Of course france calls their white people with pale skin and kinky black hair "white people."

[LordRayken]

Women aren't the one doing it, so why are they being focused on.

[maskedmelon]

Interesting thing here is that there are already prohibitions on clothing. Facial coverings as already mentioned are one example, but there are also restrictions on minimal clothing, which are again generally more restrictive on women than men. Why is it 'moral' to tell women what they must wear, while deplorable to tell women what they cannot wear?

[R Flair]

Why is it 'moral' to tell women what they must wear, while deplorable to tell women what they cannot wear?

Everyone knows the answer to that question around when they hit the age 6.

[Meep]

Interesting thing here is that there are already prohibitions on clothing. Facial coverings as already mentioned are one example, but there are also restrictions on minimal clothing, which are again generally more restrictive on women than men. Why is it 'moral' to tell women what they must wear, while deplorable to tell women what they cannot wear?

[maskedmelon]

Everyone knows the answer to that question around when they hit the age 6.

Hmm, are you suggesting that this moral revelation is born of the understanding that girls and boys are different? Well here's the problem with that, the very same understanding is the reason for the Burka.

[R Flair]

Hmm, are you suggesting that this moral revelation is born of the understanding that girls and boys are different? Well here's the problem with that, the very same understanding is the reason for the Burka.

No im talking about respecting modesty and conscience in regard to how little a person can wear. It naturally makes people uncomfortable.

Maybe i misunderstood what you were referring to when you said "what they must wear", but i thought it was a reference to requiring clothing to be worn vs going naked.

[Jarnauga]

Interesting thing here is that there are already prohibitions on clothing. Facial coverings as already mentioned are one example, but there are also restrictions on minimal clothing, which are again generally more restrictive on women than men. Why is it 'moral' to tell women what they must wear, while deplorable to tell women what they cannot wear?

Nobody is telling anyone what to wear or not to wear.. it's just a small restriction on clothing. It's funny because if i remember well, the "dont hide your face" thing was actually to prevent violent "demonstrators" to hide their face during demonstrations so they could not be prosecuted if the police would recognize them on video.. nothing to do with islamic veil (i should research this, i may be wrong).

Pretty much any laws are a compromise between freedom and security. The little freedom you lose by not being able to cover your face is considered not as important as the security gains you get. And that's actually why the Conseil d'Etat told the mayors to go fuck themselves: wearing a burkini is not considered a "trouble à l'ordre public" (risk of trouble in the public space => basically what gives the power to mayors, or any public representative to not allow or forbid a demonstration for example) and forbiding it was stepping on the freedom to wear whatever you want in the public space.

[entruil]

Nobody is telling anyone what to wear or not to wear.. it's just a small restriction on clothing.

... oh

also...

Orwell's 1984: Was Orwell Right? (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p--9_bennett.html)

[Jarnauga]

... oh

also...

Orwell's 1984: Was Orwell Right? (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p--9_bennett.html)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_INwSDY6jYI

Yesterday i was reading this:

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.

And it reminded me of Daywolf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[maskedmelon]

No im talking about respecting modesty and conscience in regard to how little a person can wear. It naturally makes people uncomfortable.

Maybe i misunderstood what you were referring to when you said "what they must wear", but i thought it was a reference to requiring clothing to be worn vs going naked.

No, you are right ^^ I am talking about being unclothed or partially unclothed. Women are generally more restricted. If it is ok to limit one's choices with regard to how little one wear because it might make someone uncomfortable, why is it not ok to limit how much one may wear if it might make someone uncomfortable?

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly practical reasons to not go prancing around baring your breasts, but so too are there to not wear a burka. ^^

[Jarnauga]

No, you are right ^^ I am talking about being unclothed or partially unclothed. Women are generally more restricted. If it is ok to limit one's choices with regard to how little one wear because it might make someone uncomfortable, why is it not ok to limit how much one may wear if it might make someone uncomfortable?

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly practical reasons to not go prancing around baring your breasts, but so too are there to not wear a burka. ^^

burqa =/= burkini =/= hijab =/= tchador =/= veil

burqa (http://www.canalfrance.info/photo/art/grande/8164359-12742989.jpg) is pretty much the afghan one, with the grill before the eyes (forbidden in france because no face)

burkini (http://www.courrierinternational.com/sites/ci_master/files/styles/image_original_1280/public/assets/images/rtr1l4wj_layout_comp.jpg) is just a swimming suit covering the hair.

hijab (http://flashmag.tn/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/74b2a6b51ae61bcb74b63d60073996f3.jpg) is one you see most of the time, veil around the face covering ears and hair

tchador (http://vigile.quebec/archives/07-1/20-tchador.jpg) is the iranian one, you only see the eyes (forbidden in france)

veil (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DieiaVS3JHI/VNws5JRVi5I/AAAAAAAAAn4/oHtLVm4oZv4/w680-h508-no/Net%2Bhijab%2BScarf%2BStyle.JPG) is basically a scarf on the hair

i'm sure there's actually more than that.. Game is: find out which of these isis thinks is too kinky

[Jarnauga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_INwSDY6jYI

Yesterday i was reading this:



And it reminded me of Daywolf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Actually more Children of Men than 1984

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-woNlmVcdjc

One of my favourite movies ever, just watch it

[R Flair]

No, you are right ^^ I am talking about being unclothed or partially unclothed. Women are generally more restricted. If it is ok to limit one's choices with regard to how little one wear because it might make someone uncomfortable, why is it not ok to limit how much one may wear if it might make someone uncomfortable?

Like i said, one is a natural discomfort from modesty, the other is nothing less than an authoritarian stance on apparel.

[AzzarTheGod]

burkini (http://www.courrierinternational.com/sites/ci_master/files/styles/image_original_1280/public/assets/images/rtr1l4wj_layout_comp.jpg) is just a swimming suit covering the hair.


lol ok dude. didn't click any of that shit. try using imgur

[AzzarTheGod]

burqa =/= burkini =/= hijab =/= tchador =/= veil

burqa (http://www.canalfrance.info/photo/art/grande/8164359-12742989.jpg) is pretty much the afghan one, with the grill before the eyes (forbidden in france because no face)

burkini (http://www.courrierinternational.com/sites/ci_master/files/styles/image_original_1280/public/assets/images/rtr1l4wj_layout_comp.jpg) is just a swimming suit covering the hair.

hijab (http://flashmag.tn/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/74b2a6b51ae61bcb74b63d60073996f3.jpg) is one you see most of the time, veil around the face covering ears and hair

tchador (http://vigile.quebec/archives/07-1/20-tchador.jpg) is the iranian one, you only see the eyes (forbidden in france)

veil (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DieiaVS3JHI/VNws5JRVi5I/AAAAAAAAAn4/oHtLVm4oZv4/w680-h508-no/Net%2Bhijab%2BScarf%2BStyle.JPG) is basically a scarf on the hair

i'm sure there's actually more than that.. Game is: find out which of these isis thinks is too kinky

No im talking about respecting modesty and conscience in regard to how little a person can wear. It naturally makes people uncomfortable.

Maybe i misunderstood what you were referring to when you said "what they must wear", but i thought it was a reference to requiring clothing to be worn vs going naked.

Many elite fraternities have rituals about getting naked together, Bohemian Grove, Yale Skull and Bones, etc. These rituals stem from Western values.

Its a bonding experience and its about not judging others and also accepting vulnerability together.

The beach is supposed to be a similar area where you can go and hope to find openness and Western fraternity values.

ITT: fat nerds/sperglords/creeps ignore the institution of the beach and what the beach is about.

We aren't going to change the institution of the beach just because some fat arab virgin losers said so.

[R Flair]

Your authoritarian fascist leanings are showing talking about "institutions of the beach". Going to the beach was never about "accepting vulnerability together" traditionally.

Also, learn your pagan rituals. Moloch worship (bohemian grove) and the like are many millennia old, and has nothing to do with western values in the fucking slightest.

[AzzarTheGod]

Your authoritarian fascist leanings are showing talking about "institutions of the beach". Going to the beach was never about "accepting vulnerability together" traditionally.

Also, learn your pagan rituals. Moloch worship (bohemian grove) and the like are many millennia old, and has nothing to do with western values in the fucking slightest.

A response to the second part of this post would be like 5 pages long. That's a whole nother meta discussion.

[maskedmelon]

Like i said, one is a natural discomfort from modesty, the other is nothing less than an authoritarian stance on apparel.

I want to make sure that what you are saying is, "modesty with regard to nakedness is a natural trait universally expressed by humans and is therefore good, while discomfort around burka wearers is unnatural and not universal and therefore bad." Is that right?

[R Flair]

I want to make sure that what you are saying is, "modesty with regard to nakedness is a natural trait universally expressed by humans and is therefore good, while discomfort around burka wearers is unnatural and not universal and therefore bad." Is that right?

Correct and in before you cite some tribe from africa as evidence against the former.

[maskedmelon]

Correct and in before you cite some tribe from africa as evidence against the former.

^^

[AzzarTheGod]

natty argument is weak. I'd rather make the moral character of public spaces argument (cant be naked in public legally, right?). Keep your fetish gear to private functions and maybe permitted/planned events, not at places where people go to gather with a reasonable expectation of civility and minimal lasciviousness. This goes for furries and leather daddies as well as sex cultists.

And we can settle on that.

*Gavel drops*

/thread

[maskedmelon]

Aversion to aberration is natural and that is what anti burka-ini people experience. It's the same reason people in clothes wearing societies might be uncomfortable around naked people.

People are always going to be uncomfortable about something. If you are going to advocate anti-authoritarian / libertarian ethic, then there should be no restriction and any restriction is authoritarian whether rooted in "natural discomfort" or not. That doesn't make the prohibition any more or less reasonable though^^

[fash]

Interesting thing here is that there are already prohibitions on clothing. Facial coverings as already mentioned are one example, but there are also restrictions on minimal clothing, which are again generally more restrictive on women than men. Why is it 'moral' to tell women what they must wear, while deplorable to tell women what they cannot wear?

Some folks here are overthinking these issues. These are the mores of the successful culture in that area. Some of them codified as laws. Some of them enforced via community (e.g. shaming overly sexual behaviors in public that harm family/societal structures, outrage at overt refusal to assimilate, revulsion to female treatment in Islam represented by their clothing, etc).

Regarding more restrictive clothing restrictions for women, there are differences between genders. They aren't equal. The dynamics between the genders is not symmetric, so it's unreasonable to assume expectations should necessarily be equivalent for both genders.

Regarding the burkinis, bring incompatible cultures together, and those cultures clash. When a people with an incompatible culture enter proximity of another culture and refuse to assimilate, don't be surprised when there is war. Diversity + proximity = war

[fash]

If you are going to advocate anti-authoritarian / libertarian ethic, then there should be no restriction and any restriction is authoritarian whether rooted in "natural discomfort" or not.

Libertarianism isn't anti-restriction. It doesn't mean you can do whatever you want without consequences. On the contrary, libertarianism is very much about restriction e.g. physical removal off my property if I dislike you.

[entruil]

People are always going to be uncomfortable about something. If you are going to advocate anti-authoritarian / libertarian ethic, then there should be no restriction and any restriction is authoritarian whether rooted in "natural discomfort" or not. That doesn't make the prohibition any more or less reasonable though^^

I read about an example but cant find ref atm... it was "Feinstein's Bus" iirc... bunch of smells and sights and sounds that might be annoying, but u can always get off the bus and catch the next one...


yea fash the "dam kids, get off my lawn" adds a nice twist.

[maskedmelon]

Libertarianism isn't anti-restriction. Libertarianism is very much about restriction e.g. physical removal off my property if I dislike you.

Let's start with why your example is libertarian and then see if we can develop that into restrictions in clothing ^^

[maskedmelon]

Regarding more restrictive clothing restrictions for women, there are differences between genders. They aren't equal. The dynamics between the genders is not symmetric, so it's unreasonable to assume expectations should necessarily be equivalent for both genders.


Yes and right or wrong, such restrictions are sensible.

Regarding the burkinis, bring incompatible cultures together, and those cultures clash. When a people with an incompatible culture enter proximity of another culture and refuse to assimilate, don't be surprised when there is war. Diversity + proximity = war

Why the bans were sensible, whether right or wrong.

[maskedmelon]

I read about an example but cant find ref atm... it was "Feinstein's Bus" iirc... bunch of smells and sights and sounds that might be annoying, but u can always get off the bus and catch the next one...


yea fash the "dam kids, get off my lawn" adds a nice twist.

Yep, freedom of association, or dissociation ^^ If I don't like what others are doing I can go some place else. If others don't like what I am doing I probably will go someace else. Everyone should be like me in this regard ^^

[fash]

Let's start with why your example is libertarian and then see if we can develop that into restrictions in clothing ^^

Are you asking for a scenario in which clothing restrictions would arise in a libertarian society? Suppose the property owners in the local community hold similar mores about how people should dress. If you're on their property and don't observe said dress code, you're physically removed.

[maskedmelon]

Are you asking for a scenario in which clothing restrictions would arise in a libertarian society? Suppose the property owners in the local community hold similar mores about how people should dress. If you're on their property and don't observe said dress code, you're physically removed.

This is my point ^^ You're just being contrarian now, unless you want to argue that everything within a libertarian society is private property ^^

[entruil]

everything within a libertarian society is private property

just about is

[fash]

This is my point ^^ You're just being contrarian now, unless you want to argue that everything within a libertarian society is private property ^^

?? I was trying to makes heads or tails of your question/statement:

Let's start with why your example is libertarian and then see if we can develop that into restrictions in clothing ^^

Not sure where you are trying to take the conversation with this. My point was that your characterization of any restriction as anti-libertarianism isn't accurate.

[entruil]

ITT: fat nerds/sperglords/creeps ignore the institution of the beach and what the beach is about.

We aren't going to change the institution of the beach just because some fat arab virgin losers said so.

lol... people of the "beach" guess i missed it... are they made in china there too?... meh gunna hit send...

i bet $$ fat virgin losers would change your institution real f'n quikc lmao... unless they are wearing suits ? ;P ...

[AzzarTheGod]

lol... people of the "beach" guess i missed it... are they made in china there too?... meh gunna hit send...

i bet $$ fat virgin losers would change your institution real f'n quikc lmao... unless they are wearing suits ? ;P ...


Suits on the beach are acceptable as long as they are seasonal and dressed down/relaxed.

I think everyone can see that suits wouldn't inherently be a bad thing so no idea what your point is there.

[entruil]

Suits on the beach are acceptable as long as they are seasonal and dressed down/relaxed.

I think everyone can see that suits wouldn't inherently be a bad thing so no idea what your point is there.

suits was in ref to your shirt vs suits paradigm....


plus other stuff u didnt pull so ill just b buzzed in the corner for future silence...

[AzzarTheGod]

suits was in ref to your shirt vs suits paradigm....


plus other stuff u didnt pull so ill just b buzzed in the corner for future silence...

Ahh yes I remember.

I use the t-shirt paradigm a lot, I could write a decent blog entry on it I should polish up the thoughts a bit and provide illustrations/backdrop/history to the whole t-shirts versus suits situation 1950 to date.

I probably have about 10-15 odd posts ive made that are certifiably blog worthy. I might utilize the search engine and pull the raw material (also will borrow a few lines and illustrations from big J, uncredited of course since this is America u kno how we do it when we do it bruh)

[maskedmelon]

?? I was trying to makes heads or tails of your question/statement:



Not sure where you are trying to take the conversation with this. My point was that your characterization of any restriction as anti-libertarianism isn't accurate.

Selling Libertarianism, a school of thought espousing the virtues of liberty (freedom of choice, association, etc.) as a concept "very much about restrictions," (your words) is absurd ^^ Hence, you're being contrarian. It is only concerned with restriction of liberty insofar as that liberty infringes upon the Liberty of another.

The point is, as you restrict Liberty, you become less libertarian ^^

[R Flair]

^correct.

In other relevant news:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/31/majority-public-backs-burka-ban/

[fash]

Selling Libertarianism, a school of thought espousing the virtues of liberty (freedom of choice, association, etc.) as a concept "very much about restrictions," (your words) is absurd ^^ Hence, you're being contrarian. It is only concerned with restriction of liberty insofar as that liberty infringes upon the Liberty of another.

The point is, as you restrict Liberty, you become less libertarian ^^

And how is a libertarian order maintained? Think through how freedom of association will play out when you inevitably have people in conflict in proximity of one another. It will involve restricting people and physically removing them until they decide to "freely associate" elsewhere, e.g. in a different community.

I'd encourage you to read libertarian philosophers who address these issues e.g. Democracy, the God that Failed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed).

[Nihilist_santa]

Fash gets it with his sweet ass HHH avatar.

ETA: Christopher Cantwell wrote an article earlier this year that really captures my thoughts on the matter.
https://christophercantwell.com/2015/12/06/why-libertarians-are-hopeless/

[maskedmelon]

And how is a libertarian order maintained? Think through how freedom of association will play out when you inevitably have people in conflict in proximity of one another. It will involve restricting people and physically removing them until they decide to "freely associate" elsewhere, e.g. in a different community.

I'd encourage you to read libertarian philosophers who address these issues e.g. Democracy, the God that Failed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed).

For sure ^^ and as those tendencies evolve the society becomes less libertarian ^^ I'm not advocating libertarianism, just pointing out the problem with embracing any ideology as an absolute. Deviations from established dogma should not be shameful things that people attempt to mask as conforming. There are many sound reasons to modify an ideal, impracticality among them ^^

[skarlorn]

it is frankly WRONG not to be allowed to wear your Religious Gear. it's like if we were in Felwithe (Paris of Norrath) and the guards said - HEY stop you CANNOT wear the Innoruuk only faction head piece, mr. dark elf. and then arrest you.

what i want is a world where any elf can wear any helmet even if its from a religion who sometimes sacrifices people to create more raw hatred in the known universe.

i thank you for your reading

[R Flair]

Apparently you've overlooked the fact that worshippers of Innoruuk are killed on sight in Felwithe.

[skarlorn]

Apparently you've overlooked the fact that worshippers of Innoruuk are killed on sight in Felwithe.

So you're saying they should kill worshippers of innoruuk (aka towelies) in Paris?????

[R Flair]

I think its only fair to warn worshippers of Innoruuk in the event of a policy change, prior to actually killing them.

At that point though, yes I think they should be downed and coined.

[skarlorn]

Ok.


America Is founded on freedom of religion. What is France founded on?

[R Flair]

Baguettes and prostitution

[maskedmelon]

Baguettes and prostitution

[skarlorn]

Baguettes and prostitution

France literally concerned about declining baguette consumption and believes it to be the glue holding their society together.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10143339/French-turning-away-from-the-baguette.html

This is a country that takes themselves seriously, ps

[Daywolf]

Ok.


America Is founded on freedom of religion. What is France founded on?Murder.

You know how you were taught that France supported the American revolution? Well that may be true, but they left out the part where that France stopped existing when king Louis of France and his family were murdered along with 40,000 people (a lot at the time).

Installed was a leftist-liberal government that would likely have been communist if happened in 20th century (e.g. protocommunist revolution). They murdered the king, the nobles, the priests, anyone with any wealth, anyone with political leanings, and anyone that was horrified with the murders.

France died, and was replaced with that that that ((((((france)))))). And that france seems to be cursed, some have pointed out that france has never actually won a war since the bloody revolution. It's always a defeat or a stalemate. France moved to Canada, and the rest of the french people that stayed behind are about to be slaughtered by scimitars rather than guillotines this time around.

[R Flair]

^that entire post needs a lot of trigger warnings for (((Jauranga)))

[skarlorn]

i guess they thought america had a great idea getting rid of the monarchy through good old fashioned civil disputes, guerilla warfare, etc... but they weren't smart enough to hire ben franklin, goerge washington, or the simon bolivars of the world?

why did they fail after the murder? we all know murder is healthy for any developing nation...

[Daywolf]

^that entire post needs a lot of trigger warnings for (((Jauranga)))
Prolly. But then he never admitted to being of French descent where as I have. He's either really ashamed of his heritage (liberal self-loathing white), or he's (((french))). I'm just glad my family got out before the revolution :)

i guess they thought america had a great idea getting rid of the monarchy through good old fashioned civil disputes, guerilla warfare, etc... but they weren't smart enough to hire ben franklin, goerge washington, or the simon bolivars of the world?

why did they fail after the murder? we all know murder is healthy for any developing nation...
We didn't have monarchy, we were a colony under a monarchy, and we didn't murder King George nor his supporters. Yes there was a war, but it was fought as a war, a war for independence. And after the war, there were no mass executions, but gestures of peace and friendship which to this day (well mostly) has been enduring for the benefit of both our nations.

Franklin and Washington were never hired, these were patriots at the center of the revolution. Franklin was friends with King Louis, persuaded his help and support. Those that did so were all murdered years later. The cake is a lie! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFJ2vfS4hYk)