Millennial men 20% weaker than their fathers

[fash]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/15/todays-men-are-nowhere-near-as-strong-as-their-dads-were-researchers-say/

Of course, this doesn't apply to Trump supporters. Even the white-collars among us regularly go to the gym before heading to our cushy office jobs.

[R Flair]

i could bench my father when I was 21 and can still squat twice his weight.

[JackFlash]

i could bench my father when I was 21 and can still squat twice his weight.

proof plz. need pics.

[Daywolf]

meh I don't think it has much to do with the labor force. I think there are two greater factors. My observations as a genx, diet and exorcise has changed much and especially impacting adult development.

1. GMO's and all the fake food now. We didn't have this crud, not so much, where everything now is loaded with sugar etc. May as well be eating sawdust now. So, poor development as well as insufficient muscle maintenance. You add water to your vehicle and see how it runs too.

2. Though I had a computer, a C64 etc, most didn't. Best we had was dial-up BBS servers, not even really interlinked. We had no mobile computers either e.g. smartphones. Staying in all day was generally considered a bad thing, unless you were watching a game or something. No matter if in school or holding a desk job, people just got out and did stuff, regularly.

[R Flair]

Agree. 2 major things, inactivity in the digital age. Lotta deep couch sittin and high media intake. Second, faggy diets and the demonization of meat, esp red meat.

[entruil]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_exoskeleton

'Ekso Bionics is currently developing and manufacturing intelligently powered exoskeleton bionic devices that can be strapped on as wearable robots to enhance the strength, mobility, and endurance of soldiers and paraplegics. Various problems remain...'

[pathius41]

I remember as a child thinking my dad was huge, he was 6'2 and a little overweight about 240lbs I'd guess looking at pictures. Then I grew up and my dad nicknamed me the beast because I just moved shit in the garage he'd never dream of lifting. I grew to 6'5 235 so in my case this story is just like the rest of the WP garbage.

edit: then again I also grew up with a stay at home mother who cooked real food every night for dinner and packed lunches with real food as well.

[JackFlash]

Tell us more about the real food? I would argue that as you go back to the 50's (millenial fathers) food gets worse by the year and people actually eat better now.

[Daywolf]

Tell us more about the real food? I would argue that as you go back to the 50's (millenial fathers) food gets worse by the year and people actually eat better now.
just search for: nutrient deficient foods
for starts.
Then you can maybe capture the magic of posting on something you know a little about rather than opinion just flying out of thin air ;)
results such as http://www.motherearthnews.com/natural-health/nutrition/nutrient-deficiency-zm0z13jjzmat.aspx
You just get fat w/o the nutrients as your body still craves them thus more and more food intake yet less and less health. You can pretty much blame the FDA, agricultural subsidy, ethanol production, or anything involving the fed govt where everything golden they touch turns to led.

As for the past, actually if you go back before electricity, most people heated their homes with wood. The remains made for very excellent nutrient rich fertilizer. Now they just dump human waste (people shit sort of like soylent green) onto farms then spray them with pesticides 1000x the dosage (and greater every year as GMO crops fail) just to maintain minimal production. Great famine coming.

[bdastomper58]

just search for: nutrient deficient foods
for starts.
Then you can maybe capture the magic of posting on something you know a little about rather than opinion just flying out of thin air ;)
results such as http://www.motherearthnews.com/natural-health/nutrition/nutrient-deficiency-zm0z13jjzmat.aspx
You just get fat w/o the nutrients as your body still craves them thus more and more food intake yet less and less health. You can pretty much blame the FDA, agricultural subsidy, ethanol production, or anything involving the fed govt where everything golden they touch turns to led.

As for the past, actually if you go back before electricity, most people heated their homes with wood. The remains made for very excellent nutrient rich fertilizer. Now they just dump human waste (people shit sort of like soylent green) onto farms then spray them with pesticides 1000x the dosage (and greater every year as GMO crops fail) just to maintain minimal production. Great famine coming.

drugs

[JackFlash]

just search for: nutrient deficient foods
for starts.
Then you can maybe capture the magic of posting on something you know a little about rather than opinion just flying out of thin air ;)
results such as http://www.motherearthnews.com/natural-health/nutrition/nutrient-deficiency-zm0z13jjzmat.aspx
You just get fat w/o the nutrients as your body still craves them thus more and more food intake yet less and less health. You can pretty much blame the FDA, agricultural subsidy, ethanol production, or anything involving the fed govt where everything golden they touch turns to led.

As for the past, actually if you go back before electricity, most people heated their homes with wood. The remains made for very excellent nutrient rich fertilizer. Now they just dump human waste (people shit sort of like soylent green) onto farms then spray them with pesticides 1000x the dosage (and greater every year as GMO crops fail) just to maintain minimal production. Great famine coming.


Wow.....drugs for sure.

[Slathar]

this Daywolf psycho definitely has penned a manifesto which will go viral when he inevitably does something insane and violent

[pgerman]

wa po readers are 83% more gay than the rest of the universe

[stormlord]

HIstorically, strength of the hand was one of hte major muscular differnces between men and woman. It's interesting the differnece is decreasing, despite men still being able to create more muscle. Female athletes with too much testosterone are typically not allowed to compete or must be medically monitored precisely becaue testosterone is strength building.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303
.......The present findings show that the differences in hand-grip strength of men and women are larger than previously reported. An appreciable difference still remains when using lean body mass as reference. The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/naturally-high-testosterone-snares-female-athletes-rio-n631086
It is not publicly known how many hyperandrogenic women are competing in Rio. But a study published in 2014 by Dolle and other medical experts calculated that seven out of 1,000 elite female athletes may be hyperandrogenic, 140 times higher than expected among the general population. Hyperandrogenism is a medical condition that causes a person to produce high levels of hormones and can be caused by differences in sexual development.

[maskedmelon]

bottled water, soy, dairy, sugar, pesticides, inactivity, behavioral modification

[entruil]

bottled water, soy, dairy, sugar, pesticides, inactivity, behavioral modification

time to raid!

[entruil]

local px store owner would always talk about the mcdonalds generation to me when i was real young gettin sinkers and swivels n leads to go fishin....


was a good guy... may not known about drones tho ;z

[Daywolf]

Wow.....drugs for sure.
Dude, just go eat your Nutella and pretend you're not eating cake frosting lol
So many people have lost the ability for critical thinking, and they're dropping like bees.

[JackFlash]

Dude, just go eat your Nutella and pretend you're not eating cake frosting lol
So many people have lost the ability for critical thinking, and they're dropping like bees.

Your thinking or lack thereof has definitely reached critical levels. Go read a book instead of eating so much red meat. Or maybe have some of that nutritious wood charcoal you fertilize your garden with.

[Daywolf]

Your thinking or lack thereof has definitely reached critical levels. Go read a book instead of eating so much red meat. Or maybe have some of that nutritious wood charcoal you fertilize your garden with.
That doesn't even make any sense :/ Nourishment comes from reading books? Especially odd coming from someone that sounds like they never read a book in their life.

And you dope, I didn't say "wood charcoal", learn to read? Quit embarrassing yourself and research wood ash for gardening/farming, it's loaded with nutrients. I mean you been locked in mom's basement all your life and never seen what happens within a year after a forest burns?

[entruil]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_ecology

' Many ecosystems, particularly prairie, savanna, chaparral and coniferous forests, have evolved with fire as a contributor to habitat vitality and renewal. Many plant species in fire-affected environments require fire to germinate, establish, or to reproduce. Wildfire suppression not only eliminates these species, but also the animals that depend upon them. Finally, fire suppression can lead to the build-up of flammable debris and the creation of less frequent but much larger and more destructive wildfires.'

[JackFlash]

Ok I'll bite. Here is some research on a low grade form of fertilizer. Seems like all those heavy metals in all the wood ash fertilized food you eat are taking hold. 0-1-3 npk isn't going to do shit for ya bro. Learn to grow.

https://extension.umaine.edu/publications/2279e/

[entruil]

first part of your link and the premise for the study...
'Pulp and paper companies in Maine often burn wood, bark or paper-mill sludge to make electricity. '

and later...

'Although ash is often mixed with water (“conditioned”) before leaving the power plant, it can dry out after being stored in the field. Be careful when you handle any dusty soil amendment (like ash, lime or dry fertilizer). '

and....





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_recycling#Limitations_and_impacts_of_paper_r ecycling

from Limitations and impacts of paper recycling section...
'Along with fibres, paper might contain a variety of inorganic and organic constituents. Paper might contain up to 10,000 different chemicals'

was something else but i took too long... seems like the results might be different from a personal/residential perspective?...

[bdastomper58]

daywolfs posts are like a love letter to Sorcha Faal

[Daywolf]

low grade form of fertilizer.
wow! and they had these factories in the 14th century where they churned out heavy metal laden industrial waste from trash and sludge, ran out of landfill so started dumping the waste product onto farms? So showed me up! I sure hope they modernized these factories over the past millennia, maybe you should ring 0bama and check on that. Maybe he'll even increase that other industrial waste production, fluoride, and increase our drinking water dosage of it.
:rolleyes:

https://youtu.be/2IpVDkg3kL8
https://youtu.be/EbmueS6sHPM
https://youtu.be/ThIrw_LpuRA
http://i.imgur.com/QBaQ6Sw.png
http://i.imgur.com/JtrOiDG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7bKbCxf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rx62uNI.jpg

[bdastomper58]

you are too dumb to realize the soda pic is fake

this is art. you are art.

[bdastomper58]

did you know nutella is made with INGREDIENTS?

teach the controversy

[JackFlash]

Also too dumb to realize there are two nutella recipes. One is produced in Canada the other in Italy.

Keep going daywolf. I'm enjoying this thread while eating my nutella from a jar. Tell me more about heavy metal laden industrial waste from the 14th century.

[Raev]

Tell us more about the real food? I would argue that as you go back to the 50's (millenial fathers) food gets worse by the year and people actually eat better now.

The NPK fertilizer revolution started in 1945 when the bomb companies realized that fertilizer and bombs are very similar chemically (think McVeigh). The problem is that while you can grow great looking plants with NPK, humans need the trace minerals like selenium, copper, zinc, etc. Then you have the Great Hybridization; modern wheat has far more poisonous gluten than it did before. Then you have the carcinogenic artificial sweeteners (read up on Aspartame and Rumsfeld sometime). Then you have the confinement beef and dairy where the animals wallow in their own poo and are so unhealthy that they need constant shots of antibiotics to avoid keeling over dead. Then you have the nutty crusade against animal fats; McDonalds used to fry their french fries in beef tallow! And finally you have the food pyramid which encouraged Americans to fry their pancreas with 500+ calories of carbs at every meal.

So I'm curious why you think that our food is somehow better nowadays. It's *possible* to eat better now, but it's very hard.

Also, since the article measured grip strength, I find it rather interesting that ever since I started doing kettlebell swings my grip has gotten a lot better. I went back to my CoC grippers that I haven't used in a year (I bought them to help my deadlifts, which are still limited by my hands) and nearly did the #1 (140 lbs) with my weak hand (inb4 masturbatory jokes). Pretty amazing considering I only do swings with the 40 lb bell and with two hands.

[Danth]

I drive a car with a V-8 engine, wear a broad-brimmed hat, believe men are men and women are women and it's okay that they're not the same, and don't have any notion of how to work a smartphone (indeed, I refuse to carry a cellular phone at all). Guess I'm a dinosaur. I can live with that.

A lot of the reason you're seeing an increase in cancer deaths and such nowadays has to be because folks aren't dying of other stuff first quite so often. Historically it was fairly commonplace for men, especially, to keel over dead from heart attacks in their upper 40's or 50's. That doesn't happen nearly so often anymore. My old man had a major heart attack in 1988 that should've killed him when he was 61 (and would have in any other era)...instead he recovered and lived almost another 20 years and died of other issues unrelated to the heart instead. Same for my mom, she lived long enough due to modern health care that she died of things that wouldn't have had a chance to kill her in earlier eras. Heck, prior to postwar medicine she would've died from pregnancy complications and I wouldn't be here to post this. It's a common story. Odds are a fair number of you folks wouldn't, either, considering that some half of all people used to die in childhood, who consequently never had a chance to die of the things we die of nowadays.

There's truth in that it's all too easy to eat a lot of food and still wind up malnourished. We're better off than we used to be because most everyone can *afford* food now (food used to be expensive!) but folks still have to educate themselves to be sure they're getting the nutrition they need. "Junk" food is a fairly modern invention and the human subconscious hasn't really had a chance to get used to the notion, yet.

At least in my case the change in restaurant cooking oil had a very unintended effect: The vegetable-oil fried french fries are far inferior, taste disgusting, and caused me to stop eating out years ago. The restaurants also seem to dump loads more salt on stuff to try to compensate for the lack of flavor and it only succeeds in turning the food into a sort of salt lick. Lots more sugar in stuff now too. Yuck! In the early 90's I used to buy fries a couple times a week, at least....I haven't bought any for years and years now.

That being said, I don't drink bottled water. It always tastes like plastic and I'm fairly sure water isn't supposed to taste like plastic.

------------------------------------------------

If men aren't developing their muscles as well nowadays as they used to it's quite probably due more to changing demands than due to dietary factors. Most modern men simply don't *use* their muscles all that much unless due to deliberate exercise; manual labor just isn't a big deal for most folks. Doing homeowner work with picks and shovels and blue-collar factory work involving heavy lifting has largely been replaced by mechanized assistance and white-collar office work. To put it another way, I bet most men can't ride a horse as well as the typical guy could 100 years ago, either.

Those "manly" victorian-era men? Nope, they were routinely mocked for being foppish dandys by the older men of that time. I look at millennial guys and think all too many of 'em look like a bunch of sorry weaklings, but that's the new norm and they're a reflection of the times just as I'm a reflection of my era.

[bdastomper58]

you say gluten is poisonous but don't know what gluten is.

unsurprising.

[big_ole_jpn]

I drive a car with a V-8 engine, wear a broad-brimmed hat, believe men are men and women are women and it's okay that they're not the same, and don't have any notion of how to work a smartphone (indeed, I refuse to carry a cellular phone at all). Guess I'm a dinosaur. I can live with that.

A lot of the reason you're seeing an increase in cancer deaths and such nowadays has to be because folks aren't dying of other stuff first quite so often. Historically it was fairly commonplace for men, especially, to keel over dead from heart attacks in their upper 40's or 50's. That doesn't happen nearly so often anymore. My old man had a major heart attack in 1988 that should've killed him when he was 61 (and would have in any other era)...instead he recovered and lived almost another 20 years and died of other issues unrelated to the heart instead. Same for my mom, she lived long enough due to modern health care that she died of things that wouldn't have had a chance to kill her in earlier eras. Heck, prior to postwar medicine she would've died from pregnancy complications and I wouldn't be here to post this. It's a common story. Odds are a fair number of you folks wouldn't, either, considering that some half of all people used to die in childhood, who consequently never had a chance to die of the things we die of nowadays.

There's truth in that it's all too easy to eat a lot of food and still wind up malnourished. We're better off than we used to be because most everyone can *afford* food now (food used to be expensive!) but folks still have to educate themselves to be sure they're getting the nutrition they need. "Junk" food is a fairly modern invention and the human subconscious hasn't really had a chance to get used to the notion, yet.

At least in my case the change in restaurant cooking oil had a very unintended effect: The vegetable-oil fried french fries are far inferior, taste disgusting, and caused me to stop eating out years ago. The restaurants also seem to dump loads more salt on stuff to try to compensate for the lack of flavor and it only succeeds in turning the food into a sort of salt lick. Lots more sugar in stuff now too. Yuck! In the early 90's I used to buy fries a couple times a week, at least....I haven't bought any for years and years now.

That being said, I don't drink bottled water. It always tastes like plastic and I'm fairly sure water isn't supposed to taste like plastic.

------------------------------------------------

If men aren't developing their muscles as well nowadays as they used to it's quite probably due more to changing demands than due to dietary factors. Most modern men simply don't *use* their muscles all that much unless due to deliberate exercise; manual labor just isn't a big deal for most folks. Doing homeowner work with picks and shovels and blue-collar factory work involving heavy lifting has largely been replaced by mechanized assistance and white-collar office work. To put it another way, I bet most men can't ride a horse as well as the typical guy could 100 years ago, either.

Those "manly" victorian-era men? Nope, they were routinely mocked for being foppish dandys by the older men of that time. I look at millennial guys and think all too many of 'em look like a bunch of sorry weaklings, but that's the new norm and they're a reflection of the times just as I'm a reflection of my era.

I see. Would you describe yourself as a Renaissance man?

[AzzarTheGod]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_ecology

' Many ecosystems, particularly prairie, savanna, chaparral and coniferous forests, have evolved with fire as a contributor to habitat vitality and renewal. Many plant species in fire-affected environments require fire to germinate, establish, or to reproduce. Wildfire suppression not only eliminates these species, but also the animals that depend upon them. Finally, fire suppression can lead to the build-up of flammable debris and the creation of less frequent but much larger and more destructive wildfires.'

my n-word entruil is a beast for this one. good post.

[AzzarTheGod]

bottled water, soy, dairy, sugar, pesticides, inactivity, behavioral modification

I don't have a problem with the rest of that list.

But what the fucks wrong with bottled water?

[AzzarTheGod]

HIstorically, strength of the hand was one of hte major muscular differnces between men and woman. It's interesting the differnece is decreasing, despite men still being able to create more muscle. Female athletes with too much testosterone are typically not allowed to compete or must be medically monitored precisely becaue testosterone is strength building.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303


http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/naturally-high-testosterone-snares-female-athletes-rio-n631086

Do they allow women with PCOS to compete?

Would be very controversial if they didn't I would think as PCOS is relatively "common".

[maskedmelon]

I don't have a problem with the rest of that list.

But what the fucks wrong with bottled water?

Soft plastics (even if BpA free) are widely regarded to leech estrogenic chemicals. Occasional ingestion is not a concern, but chronic exposure can be problematic such as when it becomes the sole water source due to poor quality public tap sources in urban/suburban areas.

[big_ole_jpn]

always lol @ seeing chaparral used in a wildlife context. There's a Chaparral High School in my area and let's just say "Savanna" might be a slightly more accurate name for it.

[entruil]

Soft plastics (even if BpA free) are widely regarded to leech estrogenic chemicals. Occasional ingestion is not a concern, but chronic exposure can be problematic such as when it becomes the sole water source due to poor quality public tap sources in urban/suburban areas.

but at least we dont have cavities

[entruil]

hey melon....


Adjudicator of Indecision & Orator of Superfluous Nothings...


oh heh... nm

[pathius41]

I drive a car with a V-8 engine, wear a broad-brimmed hat, believe men are men and women are women and it's okay that they're not the same, and don't have any notion of how to work a smartphone (indeed, I refuse to carry a cellular phone at all). Guess I'm a dinosaur. I can live with that.

A lot of the reason you're seeing an increase in cancer deaths and such nowadays has to be because folks aren't dying of other stuff first quite so often. Historically it was fairly commonplace for men, especially, to keel over dead from heart attacks in their upper 40's or 50's. That doesn't happen nearly so often anymore. My old man had a major heart attack in 1988 that should've killed him when he was 61 (and would have in any other era)...instead he recovered and lived almost another 20 years and died of other issues unrelated to the heart instead. Same for my mom, she lived long enough due to modern health care that she died of things that wouldn't have had a chance to kill her in earlier eras. Heck, prior to postwar medicine she would've died from pregnancy complications and I wouldn't be here to post this. It's a common story. Odds are a fair number of you folks wouldn't, either, considering that some half of all people used to die in childhood, who consequently never had a chance to die of the things we die of nowadays.

There's truth in that it's all too easy to eat a lot of food and still wind up malnourished. We're better off than we used to be because most everyone can *afford* food now (food used to be expensive!) but folks still have to educate themselves to be sure they're getting the nutrition they need. "Junk" food is a fairly modern invention and the human subconscious hasn't really had a chance to get used to the notion, yet.

At least in my case the change in restaurant cooking oil had a very unintended effect: The vegetable-oil fried french fries are far inferior, taste disgusting, and caused me to stop eating out years ago. The restaurants also seem to dump loads more salt on stuff to try to compensate for the lack of flavor and it only succeeds in turning the food into a sort of salt lick. Lots more sugar in stuff now too. Yuck! In the early 90's I used to buy fries a couple times a week, at least....I haven't bought any for years and years now.

That being said, I don't drink bottled water. It always tastes like plastic and I'm fairly sure water isn't supposed to taste like plastic.

------------------------------------------------

If men aren't developing their muscles as well nowadays as they used to it's quite probably due more to changing demands than due to dietary factors. Most modern men simply don't *use* their muscles all that much unless due to deliberate exercise; manual labor just isn't a big deal for most folks. Doing homeowner work with picks and shovels and blue-collar factory work involving heavy lifting has largely been replaced by mechanized assistance and white-collar office work. To put it another way, I bet most men can't ride a horse as well as the typical guy could 100 years ago, either.

Those "manly" victorian-era men? Nope, they were routinely mocked for being foppish dandys by the older men of that time. I look at millennial guys and think all too many of 'em look like a bunch of sorry weaklings, but that's the new norm and they're a reflection of the times just as I'm a reflection of my era.

Can't find anything I really disagree with here as I suspect I am a dinosaur as well.

[AzzarTheGod]

Soft plastics (even if BpA free) are widely regarded to leech estrogenic chemicals. Occasional ingestion is not a concern, but chronic exposure can be problematic such as when it becomes the sole water source due to poor quality public tap sources in urban/suburban areas.


I'm familiar. But I thought a little bit of sunlight had to be involved or the bottles need to sit for a bit.

Fresh bottled water from a distribution center that's high volume should be OK?

[bdastomper58]

I'm familiar. But I thought a little bit of sunlight had to be involved or the bottles need to sit for a bit.

Fresh bottled water from a distribution center that's high volume should be OK?

can already smell the bitch on ya

cuck

[fash]

I'm familiar. But I thought a little bit of sunlight had to be involved or the bottles need to sit for a bit.

Fresh bottled water from a distribution center that's high volume should be OK?

Supposedly, even bpa free plastic bottles have estrogen-like effects. I recall a study that found an estrogen-like effect on tissues grown in such bpa plastics. I can't find the study atm though. Glass and aluminum bottles didn't have that effect on the tissue samples.

[Ahldagor]

RO water or you're doing it wrong.

[azeth]

I am stronger than your fathers.

My father has an unachievable level of strength.

[AzzarTheGod]

can already smell the bitch on ya

cuck

u tap water dirtbag

[AzzarTheGod]

Supposedly, even bpa free plastic bottles have estrogen-like effects. I recall a study that found an estrogen-like effect on tissues grown in such bpa plastics. I can't find the study atm though. Glass and aluminum bottles didn't have that effect on the tissue samples.

If you are claiming there are not additional factors involved in releasing these endocrine disruptors such as exposure to sunlight (only takes a few minutes of sunlight to release plastic) or other factors such as sitting in a warehouse or storage then I'm afraid we disagree.

RO is the best, but I have been using bottled water for years and I can taste the difference when its a bad water. I throw many many bottles of water out per year.

Sometimes Ill get a bad case of water and just throw the whole case in the parking lot of the store out of my car. Just whip it out of my car and toss it across the parking lot. I don't have time for that shit I just bought the waters and they aren't even drinkable? lol cya. only costs 3 bucks for 26 waters. I freely toss the whole case out and secretly hope it breaks open and sometimes flies water bottles all over the place as punishment for wasting my time.

[Cecily]

Sometimes Ill get a bad case of water and just throw the whole case in the parking lot of the store out of my car. Just whip it out of my car and toss it across the parking lot. I don't have time for that shit I just bought the waters and they aren't even drinkable? lol cya. only costs 3 bucks for 26 waters. I freely toss the whole case out and secretly hope it breaks open and sometimes flies water bottles all over the place as punishment for wasting my time.

Take that minimum wage employee! Clean this up. How dare you waste my time with this filth. Don't you realize I make far more money than you?

[AzzarTheGod]

Take that minimum wage employee! Clean this up. How dare you waste my time with this filth. Don't you realize I make far more money than you?

Actually the idea is that less educated consumers will be able to have free water to drink. I tell my priest of the good deeds I have been doing.

I assume the average person realizes you can safely break the seal, remove the cap and pour into their mouth without touching below the seal line that was exposed to ground.