Dwarf Pally charisma at creation even worth it?

[Stonewallx39]

I'm thinking about creating a paladin and i've been eyeing a dwarf (I played a Half Elf on live and satisfied my fashion quest).

The only issue I have with Dwarves is I love pulling and they are so ugly lull wouldn't have a chance. If i dumped 15 points into charisma (5 into agi) and got it to 70 I feel like lull still would fail often. The other stats would be superior to other Pally races still but I'm wondering if I'd be wasting my time.

Crude stein etc. Is fairly cheap, how much charisma do you need to lull consistently?

I'm not trying to min/max just be effective in grouping and have a good time/explore parts of the game I didn't see during my time on live.

[Shodo]

I wouldn't recommend putting starting stats into it, though that certainly wouldn't be the worst option. But even with 70 you'll still fail all the time. I had to get mine to 100+ to get consistent lulls, following the suggestions of others on this forum. I get mine up to 110ish now as a dwarf with gear swaps and only get a crit resist about 1 in 10 or 15, so that's a decent goal to shoot for.

[Lemonhead]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Kobold_Jester%27s_Crown

This is a very good start for charisma and decent enough AC, you really don't have to switch it out.

[Jimjam]

TBH I always felt lull was best used to make out-of-line-of-sight pulls by spamming it until a crit resist happened.

[Stonewallx39]

So just dump starting points into stamina or wisdom (after 5 agi) and use critical resists as an asset?

Charisma gear is reasonably cheap so I'll just have to find some and keep it for when needed.

[Danth]

I wouldn't put points into charisma as a Dwarf. The main reason to pick a Dwarf is to have higher melee starting stats than the other Paladin races. If you dump your points into Charisma, you play away from your strengths while still having less charisma than other options. I favor using gear and buffs to cope with this Dwarven deficiency.

Danth

[Shodo]

So just dump starting points into stamina or wisdom (after 5 agi) and use critical resists as an asset?

Having put my starting stats in stamina as a dwarf, I would advise putting them in wisdom. Even at level 60, 15 sta is only about 75 extra hp (out of about 3k or more) - plus, with good gear and shaman buffs it's not hard to cap it in raids or even xp groups. Wisdom, on the other hand, is harder to come by on gear that also has good tank stats, and 15 wisdom is enough extra mana to cast a couple extra roots/stuns/flashes before going oom and potentially prevent a death or even a wipe.

[Doctor Jeff]

wisdom is immensely more beneficial than any other stat for a paladin

[Trungep99]

Paladins main roll is to tank, having stamina will allow you to tank better for a group. Wisdom is secondary to. Stamina since you are not the main healer, if you want to be a healer then play a cleric.

However as previous people mentioned, if you get to raid level and gear, stamina is easy to max, wis isn't.mif you plan to be more of a casual player the. Stamina probably would help your groups more along the way.

[trite]

incredibly stupid post

you realize you cast spells while tanking as a paladin, right?

by your own logic, if you want to tank you should just play a warrior

not gonna explain for the 20th time on these forums the significant mathematical advantage wisdom has over stamina for a paladin, not considering how it's infinitely more beneficial for healing someone other than yourself and that you have to spend mana to generate aggro - i'll let you do some thinking for once to figure that one out

Ok so I don't play a paladin but here is a link to a magelo profile for a dwarf paladin with 20 points into CHA you can see a min/max configuration gives you max wisdom with englightenment (258 actually) without ever putting points into it. Some combination of points into AGI and or CHA is almost certainly part of min/max build for a dwarf paladin.... also once again, not a paladin, but it seems like as long as you are regening mana as fast as you are spending it to generate agroe you are good to go and that having a large mana pool and running yourself dry is inefficient

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:MinMaxPaladin

but that suit of gear is a pipe dream and maybe being unbuffed close to 255 wis better than pipe dream min max gear and high charisma

[Pint]

I went 5 agi and all sta when I made my paladin in classic and now I have 252 Sta unbuffed so it was kind of a waste. My gear is really good though. Put 5 in agi then go wisdom or charisma, it really doesn't matter.

[Trungep99]

incredibly stupid post

you realize you cast spells while tanking as a paladin, right?

by your own logic, if you want to tank you should just play a warrior

not gonna explain for the 20th time on these forums the significant mathematical advantage wisdom has over stamina for a paladin, not considering how it's infinitely more beneficial for healing someone other than yourself and that you have to spend mana to generate aggro - i'll let you do some thinking for once to figure that one out

Flash of light has a low mana cost. Chain casting it for threat doesn't require a lot of wisdom.
Again Paladins are back up healers. Yes more wisdom will help with this , but it is a secondary roll and their main roll should be tanking. If you don't think you will get to end game then Stamina will help your primary roll more than wis. I played a paladin on live , and I felt many Paladins had roll confusion

[Sage Truthbearer]

My advice is to get agility to 75 and put the other 15 in either WIS or STA. Don't overthink it. Honestly, no matter how you spend the 15 points it won't make a significant difference in your character. We're arguing about whether a 1-2% optimization of your mana pool or 1-2% optimization of your HPs is better.

[Trungep99]

arguing that stamina is king endgame for paladins is a joke considering paladins don't tank endgame and are relegated to patch healing and casting divine strength

if you plan on dedicating years of your life to raiding then it doesn't matter because every relevant stat is easy to max unbuffed except for charisma, for which there is an argument to keep it low

at the end of the day paladins are one of the worst PvE classes in the game anyway, followed only by shadow knights


Sk's are way better than Paladins in many situations.

[Raev]

Sk's are way better than Paladins in many situations.

SKs were awesome when mobs didn't assist through Hide. But now? I'd be hard pressed to find a relevant situation where a SK is more effective than a Paladin, especially considering that 105% of the Project 1999 population rolled Monk.

arguing that stamina is king endgame for paladins is a joke considering paladins don't tank endgame and are relegated to patch healing and casting divine strength
Anyone who seriously believes this will roll Cleric or Warrior depending on which part of the Paladin they find more intriguing. Ergo, STA is the correct choice.

[Farzo]

Naw...wisdom is king for Paladins. Sorry.

What would you rather:

having 100 more hp

Or

having an extra sup heal or cc cast? (560 hp or 700 up to 875 hot heal)

Paladins or sks arent tanking in velly. Maybe.....just maybe once one gets truely bis u might see one tank an entrance dragon in ntov or vindi but at that stage and those mobs the tanks a meat shield that just needs to survive the attack rounds (a sk/pal will have the required hp/ac at bis to do this)

Before I took time off I was at 1400ish ac 5.1k hp 2.7k mana and I regret to this day not going all wisdom because been 1400ish ac 5k hp and 2.9k mana is just 2000% better.

If you're not going all wisdom you're dumb.

Edit:

Also go highelf female for sex appeal and you start with 120 wisdom =)

Edit2:

Dont forget healing is agro too, healing helps the group over all. Showing up with a low mana paladin is detrimental to the group because why play to the weaker side of the hybrid when the strength of a paladins lays in their spells. (Fol/heals/stuns/pacs).

Edit3:

you can argue all day about sk v pal but the only time an sk beats out a paladin for group tanking is when you need a split pull even then its a marginal thing. If its 2-3mobs a paladin can pacify pull fairly effectively and if the pull goes to shit can root CC.

Sk's are the soloers tank choice; between their fds/invs etc you can do alot more item camps/exploring etc. (Also for PvP their spells/dots/ hts are goog)

Paladins are kings of group tanking hands down and by miles. Like nothing is even close to the utility a paladin brings to group as a tank -- off heals, lohs, stuns, hp buffs, insta agro with root proximity, rez's, snap agro.

Warriors obv. kings of raid tanking.

I think Brad McQuaid got the EQ tanks down great.

[Trungep99]

SKs were awesome when mobs didn't assist through Hide. But now? I'd be hard pressed to find a relevant situation where a SK is more effective than a Paladin, especially considering that 105% of the Project 1999 population rolled Monk.


Anyone who seriously believes this will roll Cleric or Warrior depending on which part of the Paladin they find more intriguing. Ergo, STA is the correct choice.

Sks still hold agro better for less mana needed . Let's not forget sks get a few ac/ atk debuffs that land on many raid targets. I hit Vulak all the time with my debuffs, which does help on a long fight.

[Sage Truthbearer]

Sks still hold agro better for less mana needed.

This is just wishful thinking.

[Danth]

Disease Cloud is 10 mana and Clinging Darkness, 20. Flash of light costs 12 mana and stun costs 35. The Shadow Knight does actually have the advantage there, although both classes can get the job done if they have to. With clarity, both can effectively ignore their mana bars.

The hybrid tanks are notoriously unimportant in high-end raids--not news. A player or two who stick mostly to high-end raids have low regards for hybrid tanks...again, no shocker. I have a 54 Paladin and a 60 Shadow Knight on my account and both give excellent service for the jobs I use them for. I don't participate in high-end raiding.

If you want to min/max a Paladin for high-end gear, there's an argument to be made for Wisdom or Charisma builds. However, if all you care about is the high end why are you making a Paladin in the first place? If you dream about spending most your time raiding north Temple Veeshan, do yourself a favor and pick some other class.

Danth

[Sage Truthbearer]

Disease Cloud is 10 mana... Flash of light costs 12 mana... The Shadow Knight does actually have the advantage there

k.

[Trungep99]

Disease Cloud is 10 mana and Clinging Darkness, 20. Flash of light costs 12 mana and stun costs 35. The Shadow Knight does actually have the advantage there, although both classes can get the job done if they have to. With clarity, both can effectively ignore their mana bars.


Danth

+
Disease cloud is greater snap agro than flash or stun, it doesn't make sense but disease cloud is a huge amount of agro.

Nothing sexier than a geared knight from ToV. Partially because they are ancillary classes for end game raids . But they do offer some small benefits to those raids. Pallies with minor heals, Loh & the token DS. SK's with their shroud debuffs that land on most raid targets, and pulling assistance .