Ranger weapon with Swiftwind

[darkreap]

So I am quite a ways away from finishing my epic but was just wondering which weapons would work well with Swiftwind. I was thinking of maybe Wurmslayer especially if I can ahold of the PoS Cloak it would be really nice. Anyone have some other suggestions? Not thinking BiS, just obtainable weapons or even just fairly cheap droppables.

[Cecily]

I can't see Wurmslayer being bad. I'm pretty sure I saw some of my TMO guildies doing that combo in Kunark. Ideally, you'd want a fast main to take advantage of the damage bonus for that hand. Swiftblade of Zek is fantastic, expensive, but that's what I use and it's very very solid damage.. What I used before that, and it'll take a bit of doing on your part, is the Fayguard Parrying Dagger (http://wiki.project1999.com/Fayguard_Parrying_Dagger) from HS north's boss. It's a fantastic dps weapon. That with Swiftwind was the best DPS combo in Kunark, but it does proc a point blank AE. Use caution when wielding it, especially in an area you're relying on enchanter or root crowd control. You'd definitely need some other swap weapon if you went with that.

[darkreap]

Cecily, could you elaborate on what you said in your above post? It looks like the fayguard parrying dagger would only have a damage/delay ratio of about 0.92 after epic haste and cloak haste are applied. The wurmslayer looks to have damage/delay ratio of about 1.09. Would the higher damage of the fayguard parrying dagger be due to the faster attacks with damage bonus of main hand?

[Ele]

Cecily, could you elaborate on what you said in your above post? It looks like the fayguard parrying dagger would only have a damage/delay ratio of about 0.92 after epic haste and cloak haste are applied. The wurmslayer looks to have damage/delay ratio of about 1.09. Would the higher damage of the fayguard parrying dagger be due to the faster attacks with damage bonus of main hand?

Yes

WS - 25/40

FPD - 9/17

You get the same primary hand damage bonus regardless of type of one-hander or damage on the one-hander.

At level 60, I believe it is ((level-25)/3) ---> ((60-25)/3) = 11.6 (don't recall if it floors or rounds up)

Then to compare the primary hand options between the two:

((damage_primary_one-hander x 2) + (primary hand bonus)) / delay

WS: ((25*2)+11) / 40 = 1.525

FPD: ((9*2)+11) / 17 = 1.70

[Cecily]

I think this covers most of the droppable mainhands a ranger might consider. Epic put in for comparison. Ty Ele for that formula.

Main Hand Weapon Effectiveness at 60:

Lamentation: ((9*2) + 11) / 21 = 1.38
Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn: ((20*2)+11) / 34 = 1.5
Revulant Whip: ((5*2)+11) / 14 = 1.5
Wurm Slayer: ((25*2)+11) / 40 = 1.525
Edge of the Night Walker: ((14*2)+11) / 25 = 1.56
Frostbringer: ((12*2)+11) / 22 = 1.59
Jade Mace: ((9*2) + 11) / 18 = 1.61
Winter's Fury: ((13*2)+11) / 23 = 1.61
Skyfury Scimitar: ((13*2)+11) / 23 = 1.61
Earthcaller: ((14*2)+11) / 24 = 1.625
Exquisite Velium War Sword: ((12*2)+11) / 21 = 1.67
Exquisite Velium Battle Hammer: ((12*2)+11) / 20 = 1.75
Exquisite Velium Spear: ((12*2)+11) / 20 = 1.75
Swiftblade of Zek: ((11*2)+11) / 18 = 1.83
Horn of Hsagra: ((13*2)+11) / 20 = 1.85

What's really interesting is how good Jade Maces are. IMO, spend 1k on a mace and get that HS dagger when you can. Then start saving plat.

[Cecily]

Cecily, could you elaborate on what you said in your above post? It looks like the fayguard parrying dagger would only have a damage/delay ratio of about 0.92 after epic haste and cloak haste are applied. The wurmslayer looks to have damage/delay ratio of about 1.09. Would the higher damage of the fayguard parrying dagger be due to the faster attacks with damage bonus of main hand?

So this is why selecting a primary is more complicated than an offhand. Pure ratio is the only consideration for an offhand, for the most part. Damage bonus messes that all up so you need that formula Ele and I used when picking a primary. The bonus gets applied on every attack, so a lower delay = more damage from sheer number of hits. So fast AND good ratio is what we're looking for in primary.

See how the Edge of the Night Walker, Scim of the Emerald Dawn, and Wurmslayer perform at 60 and notice how these slow, high ratio weapons are bad for primary later on.

[Colgate]

get a swiftblade of zek

[Cecily]

Basically. The cost / value of it is so much better than HoH for a ranger.

[darkreap]

Thanks guys, in my calculations I wasn't including the damage bonus.

[Imago]

Velium Maul of Superiority: (11*2)+11)/18 = 1.833

[Cecily]

Blade of Carnage is a droppable I missed, but it's a terrible primary for the price: 1.78

[Skew]

Statues hammer is 17/25 that's what I mainhand with my ranger

[Doctor Jeff]

Statues hammer is 17/25 that's what I mainhand with my ranger

For the lazy: ((17*2)+11)/25=1.8

[Jimjam]

I'd only use these formulas as at best guidelines. They don't take in to account factors such as atk or ac, which alters the weight of importance between DMG and damage bonus.

I often see these formulas cited (and for different classes) but have never seen a plot of parsed vs modelled dps.

[Doctor Jeff]

I'd only use these formulas as at best guidelines. They don't take in to account factors such as atk or ac, which alters the weight of importance between DMG and damage bonus.

I often see these formulas cited (and for different classes) but have never seen a plot of parsed vs modelled dps.

Formulas assume you are stat capped and what weapon you use has no effect on the mob's AC.

[Jimjam]

Formulas assume you are stat capped I don't buy that. I've seen this formula ((2dmg+damage bonus)/delay) rolled out for all levels on any class. It obviously has no consideration for skills, damage tables and so on(all of which depend on level/class and will skew the relative importance of dmg and damage bonus).what weapon you use has no effect on the mob's AC.True, but mob AC skewers the importance of dmg vs damage bonus (the balance of which is the entire purpose of this formula).

This formula seems to provide a useful guideline certainly. However, I am wary of trusting it to be within few % accuracy, especially when deciding between weapons with wildly different delays.

It's always banded around, but never evidenced. I'd like to see how it compares to parses.

[Jimjam]

I don't understand how the 2 represents double attack; that is a factor that effects damage bonus as well as dmg. Surely double attack is one skill that isn't relevant to the formula that attempts to balance dmg vs db?

[isoka]

The formula 2xweapon dmg + bonus_dmg provides the average dmg per hit and the "*2" is therefore not related to double attack.

I also agree that AC mitigation is something which should be taken into account because I don't know if it mitigates a % of dmg or if it's a fixed value (in which case higher delay weapons could end up dealing more dmg than low delay ones).

[Jimjam]

From what I recall from live dev posts, you roll a 20 sided dice which is applied as a multiple to your DMG (but not damage bonus) characteristic. This dice is weighted depending on the atk vs ac scores of the attacker and defender.

If the same holds true on p99, then against tough opponents you want to use fast weapons as damage bonus (ie. min damage) is never mitigated. Likewise, against soft opponents DMG rolls will tend to be higher so DMG becomes more important.

I have no idea how bonus damage due to high str is resolved here.

I hope to get some parses done of my own some day, I think the mathsquest could be interesting. Ideally I need to find a mob with high regen that I can swing at for a long time with different weapon set ups (and have a healer helping to keep me alive while I gather data).

[koros]

The real way to test this thoroughly is to remove dps from the equation entirely. A mob of static level hit a few hundred times with the same weapon (preferably primary only or offhand only or having different skill types) will reveal the probability distribution of the damage function. Said mob can be given a full set of say bronze armor or debuffed to simulate different mob AC levels.

As a general rule, damage bonus is a huge part of total damage for any weapon during this era. Therefore a high damage high ratio weapon will almost never realistically out damage a low delay, slightly worse ratio weapon in practice. See wurmslayer vs jade mace, even on a very low ac mob.

[Deji]

Whats a weapon that looks the most like swiftwind without the particle effects? I'm fashionquesting

[Sajan]

Whats a weapon that looks the most like swiftwind without the particle effects? I'm fashionquesting

Crafted Velium Warsword perhaps?

[TheBiznessTZ]

I USE TOLANS LONGSWORD OF THE GLAVE / SWIFTWIND... AM I DOING IT RIGHT?! OH WAIT I HAVEN'T LOGGED ONTO THIS GAME IN MONTHS. CARRY ON.

[jolanar]

Main Hand Weapon Effectiveness at 60:

Lamentation: ((9*2) + 11) / 21 = 1.38


What's really interesting is how good Jade Maces are. IMO, spend 1k on a mace and get that HS dagger when you can. Then start saving plat.

FWIW Lamentation is 19 delay, not 21. But it is crazy that Jade Mace is so much better. Just goes to show that the 1 delay difference really is large in the primary.

Downside is Jade Mace is a Fashionquest fail for a Ranger.

[Cecily]

Oh thank you for catching that. Lamentation = 1.53

[demokatt]

Whats best. 2 lammys or wurmslayer + lammy ?

[darkreap]

It depends on the level from the calculations everyone has given.

Wurmslayer - ((25*2)+11)/40=1.525 @ level 60
Lamentation - ((9*2)+11)/19=1.526 @ level 60
Wurmslayer - ((25*2)+4)/40 = 1.350 @ level 40
Lamentation - ((9*2)+4)/19 = 1.157 @ level 40

It looks like lammy is better at level 60 but only slightly. At lower levels however the wurmslayer would be better since the damage bonus isn't as high. The bonus damage might be a little off as I wasn't sure at what level you start getting 11 bonus damage but assuming at level 60 you get it, the calculations should be accurate.

[demokatt]

Ok that close enough for me to choose any of them. Are there any 1h weapons that looks just like wurmslayer that can be used in off hand for fashion?

[darkreap]

None that I am aware of...

[Jimjam]

Ok that close enough for me to choose any of them. Are there any 1h weapons that looks just like wurmslayer that can be used in off hand for fashion?

It might be worth taking this formula with a pinch of salt. I've never seen any testing to show its validity, and it is obviously very simplified. For example, it doesn't take account of wielder/targets stats like atk and ac.

All the formula does is compare weapons on the assumption that DMG is worth twice as much as Damage Bonus for equivalent delay.

Now, if this formula is true at max stats/skills and for all classes (it won't always be true, but lets pretend it is) then when your character does not meet these conditions (say you only have 167 str, not 255) then you will want to reduce the weight of DMG and focus more on damage bonus (which basically means using lower delay weapons).


On my own ranger I went for a Wurmslayer (it is an iconic weapon, the large delay means it is easier to cast between swings, I get riposted less and do bigger ripostes myself).

[Ciroco]

Wurmslayer is not as close to Lammy at 60 as that calculation indicates. It's not worth using 51+ IMO.

[Darguth]

I've always understood the x2 mod in the calculation that's repeated so much in this thread to be incorrect. The formula I've used is:

Mod = (Weapon Skill + Strength - 75)/100 <minimum 2>
MH Damage Bonus (1h) = (Level -25)/3 <minimum 0>
Ratio = (Wpn Dmg * Mod + MH Dmg Bonus)/Wpn Delay

So if you're at max weapon skill (240) and max strength (255) then your modifier is actually 4.2 and not 2.0.

Is that not how it works?

[Jimjam]

To be honest I think 2.0 is actually a little high, so 4.2 is surely far off!

[Kutsumo]

To be honest I think 2.0 is actually a little high, so 4.2 is surely far off!

Yeah 2.0 always seems really low when I'm swinging for 74 damage with a 15dmg weapon. It should be more like 1.5.

It's so silly that subtracting 11 from 74, then dividing by 4.2 equals 15. Definitely far off.

[koros]

I've always understood the x2 mod in the calculation that's repeated so much in this thread to be incorrect. The formula I've used is:

Mod = (Weapon Skill + Strength - 75)/100 <minimum 2>
MH Damage Bonus (1h) = (Level -25)/3 <minimum 0>
Ratio = (Wpn Dmg * Mod + MH Dmg Bonus)/Wpn Delay

So if you're at max weapon skill (240) and max strength (255) then your modifier is actually 4.2 and not 2.0.

Is that not how it works?

It's not how it works. The 2x is an attempt to calculate mean hit, not max.

[Holey]

swift of zek and swiftblade KEK

[Darguth]

It's not how it works. The 2x is an attempt to calculate mean hit, not max.

It can't simply be too though, otherwise offensive stats mean nothing.

[Jimjam]

Right, I decided to look at my logs to see how good an approximation the 2DMG+Damage bonus (or just 2DMG for off hand) is for weapons hits.

This is for a ranger in his late 40s with around 200 STR Equipped with Wurmslayer and Lupine Dagger.

Across a variety of mobs the Wurmslayer's average hit was 54, the Lupine dagger's 16. Factoring in delay that is a ratio of 1.52 (54/40:16/18). The formula suggests the Wurmslayer in primary should do 1.5 ((25+25+10)/40:(9+9/)18) the damage/delay of the Lupine Dagger.

I'm not going to lie, I'm surprised at how close the expected figure for the relative value of the weapons was to how they performed in the field. I'll look at the results under different tests to see the differences; most of these fights were against low dark blues, meaning I had decent ATK versus the defenders AC, allowing the DMG to come in to play. I suspect against more difficult mobs we will see that having low delay becomes more important (as damage bonus is not mitigated by AC, unlike DMG).

[Darguth]

Right, I decided to look at my logs to see how good an approximation the 2DMG+Damage bonus (or just 2DMG for off hand) is for weapons hits.

This is for a ranger in his late 40s with around 200 STR Equipped with Wurmslayer and Lupine Dagger.

Across a variety of mobs the Wurmslayer's average hit was 54, the Lupine dagger's 16. Factoring in delay that is a ratio of 1.52 (54/40:16/18). The formula suggests the Wurmslayer in primary should do 1.5 ((25+25+10)/40:(9+9/)18) the damage/delay of the Lupine Dagger.

I'm not going to lie, I'm surprised at how close the expected figure for the relative value of the weapons was to how they performed in the field. I'll look at the results under different tests to see the differences; most of these fights were against low dark blues, meaning I had decent ATK versus the defenders AC, allowing the DMG to come in to play. I suspect against more difficult mobs we will see that having low delay becomes more important (as damage bonus is not mitigated by AC, unlike DMG).

You could do a similar test with the same weapons on the same mobs but remove your STR/ATK gear and buffs to see how they factor into the average damage.

[Darguth]

My big problem with using the modifier of 2 is that I've heard it often repeated that the Woodsman's Staff is the best pre-Epic DPS for a ranger. Assuming the 2H bonus damage is (Level-25)/1.8 instead of (Level-25)/3 for a 1H weapon (I'd have to track down the source of this, it was some archived ZAM page, and yes I know the delay factors in but this is just for a quick show and I'm likely being on the generous end for the 2Her) you get a 2H dmg bonus of 19 versus 11 for a 1Her.

That gives the Woodsman's Staff a:
((31*2)+19)/35 = 2.31 ratio

Now use my current setup on a 47 ranger of Spined Dragon Claw MH (10/21) and Green Jade Broadsword OH (11/25) and you get:
((10*2)+11)/21 = 1.47
(11*2)/25 = 0.88

So those numbers give you the SDC and GJB being better (2.35 combined) than the Staff (2.31), which seems like nonsense compared to conventional wisdom. The damage bonus divider has to be as low as 1.66 (instead of 3 for a 1Her and instead of 1.8 as I used above) before the Staff starts to edge out even this two so-so weapons. It would have to be much lower for the Staff to clearly be the best DPS pre-Epics.

The MOD value of 2 in ((DMG*MOD)+BONUS)/DELAY function seems to only be valid in finding the Magic Number of your weapon's damage and doesn't seem an accurate portrayal of your overall damage outlay. I believe parses show the Magic Number only accounting for 10-15% of hits against dark blue targets. The Max Damage calculation I proposed before doesn't seem to accurately represent it either, but the truth must lie somewhere in the middle it would seem.

[darkreap]

I believe part of the issue with your numbers is your offhand will not be swinging every round. I think with max dw skill you will swing about half the time.

[jpetrick]

Dual Wield % = Dual Wield Skill + Level / 400

Dual Wield cap at level 60 = 240

75% @ Level 60 for Rangers

Spined Dragon Claw = 1.47
Green Jade Broadsword (Offhand) = .88

1.47 + (.88 x .75) = 2.13

I don't know what your dual wield skill is at level 47 but your damage is worse than what I just provided.

[demokatt]

So woodsman staff is:
((31*2)+19)/35 = 2.31 ratio

And two lammys are:
Wurmslayer - ((25*2)+11)/40=1.525 + (0,75*1,525) = 2,67

So even a crappy weapon like lammy is better 50+ ? Are we sure that 2H bonus is 19 at 60? And is it mathematical correct to just take the ratio * 0,75 to simulate offhand damage?

[koros]

http://codepad.org/NjMM455H

From Rogean directly:

}
// Sep. 19, 2000 until Oct. 8, 2001, delay adjustments.
else if (RuleI(Combat,TwoHandedDmgBonus) == 2)
{
if (Weapon->Delay <= 27)
return (GetLevel() - 22) / 3; // Just 1h bonus + 1.

int32 base;
if (GetLevel() > 50)
base = ((GetLevel() - 7) / 3);
else
base = ((GetLevel() - 25) / 2);

if (Weapon->Delay <= 39)
return base;
else if (Weapon->Delay <= 42)
return base + 1;
else if (Weapon->Delay <= 44)
return base + 3;
else
return base + (Weapon->Delay - 31)/3;

Ok, so a 35 delay weapon has a 17 damage bonus at 60.

(31*2+17) / 35 = 2.257

I believe the duel wield skill check is (level + skill / 500), not 400. So it fires at 60% for rangers at 60.

so a 1:2 ratio weapon will add a .6 at 60 in the offhand.

Lammys = 2.09
Jade maces = 2.21
Woodsman = 2.256
Crescent Blades of Luclin + Winter's Fury = 2.39
Epics = 2.367 (not including haste and raw atk)

Make sense now?

[jpetrick]

I believe the duel wield skill check is (level + skill / 500), not 400. So it fires at 60% for rangers at 60.



How certain are you of this? I would need to redo a lot of my math on monk weapons if this is true. Which also would make 2handers way better (for monks) than almost any dual wield combination.

[Kutsumo]

How certain are you of this? I would need to redo a lot of my math on monk weapons if this is true. Which also would make 2handers way better (for monks) than almost any dual wield combination.

Pretty sure he's right, some classes have a 500 divider and some classes have a 400 - possibly only Monk has 400.

[demokatt]

http://codepad.org/NjMM455H

From Rogean directly:

}
// Sep. 19, 2000 until Oct. 8, 2001, delay adjustments.
else if (RuleI(Combat,TwoHandedDmgBonus) == 2)
{
if (Weapon->Delay <= 27)
return (GetLevel() - 22) / 3; // Just 1h bonus + 1.

int32 base;
if (GetLevel() > 50)
base = ((GetLevel() - 7) / 3);
else
base = ((GetLevel() - 25) / 2);

if (Weapon->Delay <= 39)
return base;
else if (Weapon->Delay <= 42)
return base + 1;
else if (Weapon->Delay <= 44)
return base + 3;
else
return base + (Weapon->Delay - 31)/3;

Ok, so a 35 delay weapon has a 17 damage bonus at 60.

(31*2+17) / 35 = 2.257

I believe the duel wield skill check is (level + skill / 500), not 400. So it fires at 60% for rangers at 60.

so a 1:2 ratio weapon will add a .6 at 60 in the offhand.

Lammys = 2.09
Jade maces = 2.21
Woodsman = 2.256
Crescent Blades of Luclin + Winter's Fury = 2.39
Epics = 2.367 (not including haste and raw atk)

Make sense now?

Yes thanks, I was way off in my calculations - wrong weapon and forgot to remove damage bonus on offhand :-)

I think I keep the lammys anyway since I like the stats compared to woodsman, +12 STR, + 12 STA and +40 HP is more worth it imo than 0,166 better ratio and it looks cooler than the old stick I have had for 50 levels :-)

I could switch to two Defiance though, I wonder if 20 AC is better than 12 STA + 40 HP? Also get +16 DEX, could be good for getting more crits on the arrow :-)

[TheBiznessTZ]

I use Tolans long sword of the glave and swift wind... Am I doing it wrong? ....

[demokatt]

Btw.. how hard/expensive is it to get my hands over a Swiftwind today on P1999? What steps in the quest do I really need to do to complete the swiftwind part?

[Cecily]

I use Tolans long sword of the glave and swift wind... Am I doing it wrong? ....

I think Tolan's sword is terrible, honestly. It's slow for a mainhand and you lose ATK from Swiftwind in offhand. Just all around kinda not so good.

[shwally]

Btw.. how hard/expensive is it to get my hands over a Swiftwind today on P1999? What steps in the quest do I really need to do to complete the swiftwind part?

You need to complete up to Softly Glowing Stone part of the epic. Give Foloal Stormforest in Firiona Vie the Pulsing Green Stone and Softly Glowing Stone, receiving a Warmly Glowing Stone. Then Give Telin Darkforest the Warmly Glowing Stone receiving an Ancient Longsword. After that you will need to go to the Hole and spawn Jaeil the Insane by giving Jaeil the Wretched in The Hole Ella's Shiny Tin Bowl and slay him. Loot a Soulbound Hammer. Speak to Mairee Silentone in Erudin Palace and give her the Soulbound Hammer, receiving a Dwarven Smiths Hammer. Slay essence tamers in Plane of Sky and loot a Swirling Sphere of Color. Give Mairee Silentone the Dwarven Smiths Hammer and Swirling Sphere of Color, receiving Hammer of the Ancients. Give Kinlo Strongarm the Hammer of the Ancients spawning Usbak the Old who gives you a Small bit of Mithril Ore. Hail Usbak the Old and give him the Ancient Longsword receiving a Refined Ancient Sword. Give Kinlo Strongarm the Small bit of Mithril Ore receiving a Refined Mithril Blade. Give Telin Darkforest the Refined Ancient Sword spawning Faelin Bloodbriar, then give her the Refined Ancient Sword receiving Swiftwind.


That's everything you have to do after getting the MQ, but you have to complete everything before that to be able to get the MQ of the VS stone. I did everything up to the softly glowing stone on my ranger in about a day and a half. It was a LONG day and a half tho.

[Ruppet]

I think Tolan's sword is terrible, honestly. It's slow for a mainhand and you lose ATK from Swiftwind in offhand. Just all around kinda not so good.

Dang.. and I was thinking that 21 is fairly fast too, haha.

If I follow the same math to calculate weapon effectiveness.. I get ((15*2)+11) / 21 = 1.95 which outclasses the rest on the list from earlier in the post. I'd have thought the ratio would be good enough to make up for the benefit of damage bonus from a faster weapon? Is this thinking incorrect?

[Cecily]

It's.. good. But compared to Krezien's Flame or Baton of Flame, I think it's a waste to get.

[TheBiznessTZ]

It's.. good. But compared to Krezien's Flame or Baton of Flame, I think it's a waste to get.

I think you're mistaken. The atk bonus stacks with Tolans and swiftwind. So I'm gaining dps not losing.

[Ruppet]

I think you're mistaken. The atk bonus stacks with Tolans and swiftwind. So I'm gaining dps not losing.

Unless I read wrong, I believe he meant that by using Tolan's in the offhand, you will lose the ATK bonus from Swiftwind effect.

[TheBiznessTZ]

Unless I read wrong, I believe he meant that by using Tolan's in the offhand, you will lose the ATK bonus from Swiftwind effect.

I put tolan's in main hand swift OH obviously.

[Cecily]

No I'm saying for a NToV weapon, it's equally bad in either hand.

[Loke]

Dang.. and I was thinking that 21 is fairly fast too, haha.

If I follow the same math to calculate weapon effectiveness.. I get ((15*2)+11) / 21 = 1.95 which outclasses the rest on the list from earlier in the post. I'd have thought the ratio would be good enough to make up for the benefit of damage bonus from a faster weapon? Is this thinking incorrect?

Yes, but if you do the same math for the two weapons Cecily specifically mentioned you get:

Baton of Flame: ((13 × 2)+11) / 17 = 2.17
Kriezenn's Flame: ((12 × 2)+11) / 17 = 2.06

Which is what her point was I think. Baton striaght up has a better ratio than Tolan's, and while KFlame is slightly worse, it is 4/10 of a second faster, which is pretty significant.

Not sure about the additional ATK, but it could make a difference. I still use epic offhand on my warrior for the ATK and Dex even thought I have a better ratio offhand, but with main hand doing a larger percentage of damage than off hand, I have no idea how much of a ratio/atk difference is necessary to justify using a worse raw damage, but higher +ATK item is.

[koros]

Yes, but if you do the same math for the two weapons Cecily specifically mentioned you get:

Baton of Flame: ((13 × 2)+11) / 17 = 2.17
Kriezenn's Flame: ((12 × 2)+11) / 17 = 2.06

Which is what her point was I think. Baton striaght up has a better ratio than Tolan's, and while KFlame is slightly worse, it is 4/10 of a second faster, which is pretty significant.

Not sure about the additional ATK, but it could make a difference. I still use epic offhand on my warrior for the ATK and Dex even thought I have a better ratio offhand, but with main hand doing a larger percentage of damage than off hand, I have no idea how much of a ratio/atk difference is necessary to justify using a worse raw damage, but higher +ATK item is.

Parsing will probably be required, but I suspect Swiftwind offhand will outdamage Tolan's offhand in almost all cases where the mainhand is decent. Maybe the AC is handled differently (buff ac or something, the live calcs were done that way) and it's ridiculously good for tanking?

[YotamR]

Is Claw of Lightning worth getting to replace Swiftwind? On one hand - Claw ratio is much better. On the 2nd hand - you lose ATK. Does the ATK bonus weigh so heavily that it makes Swiftwind irreplaceable?

[darkreap]

So if all goes well I should have my Swiftwind by mid-week (fingers crossed). I have just been using dual lammys since my woodsman's staff seemed to taper off in damage after hitting 50. Was trying not to invest much in weapons as I was hoping to be upgrading them through raids or completing epic. Im wondering, should I just buy a Jade Mace or would a Frostbringer be better dps post 50? Has anyone parced these two weapons. From the below, it looks like these weapons perform fairly similar, however, I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experience comparing them. For the price, I would prefer to get the Jade Mace but it seems the Frostbringer ratio is better and not much slower...

Frostbringer: ((12*2)+11) / 22 = 1.59
Jade Mace: ((9*2) + 11) / 18 = 1.61

[demokatt]

Woodsman is still better than lammies all way up to 60 2.265 vs 2.09. I also changed to lammies for awhile but went back to the good old stick :-)

I envy you for swiftwind, I play so casual these days only way for me is prob to mq the stone. :D

[darkreap]

I felt like the 1h weapons were more consistent 50+. I would try to put the woodsman's Staff back on throughout fights but would get nothing but miss messages with it equipped or hit for very low damage. Seemed with the 1h weapons I was averaging more sustained dps than a few good rounds with the woodman's could keep up with.

[Superranger]

Jade Mace

[Kutsumo]

I felt like the 1h weapons were more consistent 50+. I would try to put the woodsman's Staff back on throughout fights but would get nothing but miss messages with it equipped or hit for very low damage. Seemed with the 1h weapons I was averaging more sustained dps than a few good rounds with the woodman's could keep up with.

"Seemed", "felt"... Get yourself a copy of gamparse and you can make decisions based on facts rather than feelings haha.

[Jimjam]

Parsing will probably be required, but I suspect Swiftwind offhand will outdamage Tolan's offhand in almost all cases where the mainhand is decent. Maybe the AC is handled differently (buff ac or something, the live calcs were done that way) and it's ridiculously good for tanking?

I think the important thing is the Swiftwind augmenting the damage of the primary hand (or even bow). Ac from worn buffs come under spell AC. Most of the way through velious worn AC was fairly trivial to cap. As such, if you were close to / at / over that cap worn AC would appear to have little difference, making spells / worn spells seem much bigger in effect.

Woodsman is still better than lammies all way up to 60 2.265 vs 2.09. I also changed to lammies for awhile but went back to the good old stick :-)

I envy you for swiftwind, I play so casual these days only way for me is prob to mq the stone. :D

VSR is up practically all the time and the triggered VS drops two stones. The stone isn't hard to come across (and if you do decide to MQ make sure to negotiate down the price based on that).

"Seemed", "felt"... Get yourself a copy of gamparse and you can make decisions based on facts rather than feelings haha.

In fairness, the Woodsman hits for a wider range of damage and does less hits in a given time span, which does make it mathematically more random. It's not like the weapon set ups are orders of magnitude different. The big delay has an advantage if you find yourself cast spells or tanking.

[demokatt]

Yeah that is true, but its hard to beat the feeling when it hits for 2x150 damage.

Although I have never understood the argument of casting between swings, what are you casting, level 1 spells? Or is it me being too hasted :-)

[Kutsumo]

In fairness, the Woodsman hits for a wider range of damage and does less hits in a given time span, which does make it mathematically more random. It's not like the weapon set ups are orders of magnitude different. The big delay has an advantage if you find yourself cast spells or tanking.

Yes exactly. When we're talking 5% or 10% differences between two weapon setups that deal their damage in a very different way (big slow hits vs small fast hits), there's just no way that you can accurately "feel" how much DPS you're doing with either setup.

[Kutsumo]

Yeah that is true, but its hard to beat the feeling when it hits for 2x150 damage.

Although I have never understood the argument of casting between swings, what are you casting, level 1 spells? Or is it me being too hasted :-)

You lose less delay time when casting between swings of a 2her than with 1hers. The level of the spell doesn't matter.