Pew Pew Pew

[Cecily]

So lately I've been pretty mean to Rosen (Ivory) for saying archery is practical to level up / dps with. My reason for that is I sincerely didn't want to see someone waste their time on a build which experience has taught me is bad. But I also don't like giving an uninformed opinion, so I needed to go out and see if anything had changed. And after grouping with Rosen in TT on the forager cycle for the better part of an evening, I'd like to offer her an apology and give some thoughts on why archery might be alot... better now than it was in the past.

There's 2 reasons why archery was bad in Kunark:

Itemization - This the vast majority of the bows available to anyone during our 10 trip year trip to Kunark. Raincaller is probably what most rangers used during this time. It's a great pulling bow, but the DPS is seriously lacking. For damage, there's 2 good bows in the entire expansion... Bow of the Underfoot and Windstriker. Both were extremely difficult to obtain and both featured a brutally slow 6 second base refresh timer. If you missed a few shots in a row, you probably forgot about archery for awhile. It just wasn't fun to use.

http://i.imgur.com/RfhSQMo.png

Haste - Worn haste was not effecting bow shots or skills timers during all or most of Kunark*. And also pre-patch fleeting quivers were nothing but an annoying bag to carry (which I did anyway). Spell haste was the only way to increase your firing speed. So if you were solo and not lucky enough to own a sky cloak, you were stuck with, depending on your bow, a base 4 to 6 second firing speed (10 to 15 shots per minute) which missed quite often. Better than nothing, but not by much.

So in summary, good bows in Kunark were rare, slow, and suffered severely from a lack of item-based haste. I would guess most people took a Raincaller they dropped 6k on out, excited to bow kite, and were pissed off 10 - 15 mins later. Raincallers probably formed most of the negative opinions people have on archery. Those 350 range pulls are incredible though.

*I put in a bug report about this issue a long, long time ago. We suggested that the removal of haste % from item tags broken something and was the reason for the bug.
Whether or not that was the case, the haste % is shown now and, barring epics, worn haste is speeding up timers like it should.

---------------------------------

Why Archery maybe might not be so horrible:

Itemization - Bow of the Huntsman / Velium bows. Nice ratios are MUCH easier to quest / purchase now.

Haste - Worn item (besides Swiftwind) / fleeting quiver haste functioning. This is absolutely huge for soloers.

Put those together and it's pretty ok.

http://i.imgur.com/8azkqKB.png

Zalea: 60 ranger. Earthcaller / Swiftblade of Zek Main & Swiftwind offhand. Sky cloak. 90% hasted. 26 DS.
Rosen: 55 ranger. 36% worn haste (velium swiftblade) + fleeting quiver. Various bows (Skydarkener, Ex Velium Bow, Bow of the Huntsman)

This about 2 hours worth of hunting foragers together in TT with almost zero downtime. I was tanking and Rosen was sniping 2x hits. Rosen was mainly using Skydarkener, so there's of bunch of procs not being shown. Parser counted "has been struck by lightning" 56 times so add another 14k damage to her total. Quite honestly, I'm impressed to see that much damage. Regardless of the bow we chose to test, the damage always ended up being around 25% of my melee damage. I had her test her melee once (mid range ratio dd proc weapons) and funny enough was also 25% of the kill.

So anyways.. this enough to make me stop dismissing archery completely. Considering that I was using much better haste, Rosen put out a ton damage.
Very curious how a level 60 w/ a nicer bow would do.

[Tenlaar]

That's pretty interesting. I'd really like to see a full 60 top geared melee vs. 60 top geared archery breakdown too. I have always shared the assumption that archery would never be fore more than pulling, gimmicky kills, or "if I get close to that merb I'll gate" situations during these eras. From reading those threads, the idea of using a bow to quad mobs...kind of makes me want to play a ranger...

#ifeeldirty

And kudos to you for being capable of re-examining a firmly held belief, even if it is about something as silly as elf bow DPS.

[Ivory]

Hooray! I have converted a non believer to the cult of the bendy branch!!

Soon, the entire world will recognize the power of archery and there will be a swelling of young archers as they rediscover the ancient art of the elves!!!

I can't wait till I'm 60 and find a sky cloak so I can really see how it stacks up.

What surprised me most when I had been tracking my damage before was that my melee ended up about the same as my bow. I had always figured "if raw DPS is really important, switch into melee mode".....but so far from the numbers, the bow actually keeps up.

I still suspect melee might be a better DPS option if you are using some really really nice weapons and self hasted better (though skydarkener procs are nothing to sneeze at...I've gotten 6 procs in 6 shots before).

Though, there are still some pretty good advantages to a bow with higher end raiding even with slightly less DPS (when using trueshot, it is no contest btw, bow wins...but BFG is pretty killer too). Such as being able to stay out of range of AE's and being able to duck behind caster shield walls between shots to avoid AE's (saves on heals / avoiding long AE stuns / and even death).

And remember, this is pure bow....not counting the other advantage of archery being able to weave in spells between shots (call of flame is a fast cast 206 damage...or at 59, we get Calefaction, which is a 450 DD....definitely worth casting! In melee you might lose more swings, but with bows you won't lose too much to throw it in...along with the advantage of being able to med between shots to make that much more frequent than a melee ranger could sustain).

But all of this is more high end crunching for efficiency and min/maxing DPS. For leveling up, a trueshot longbow and sow in oasis will have you out-soloing basically everyone. Level 30-40, a bow of the hunstman and you are the king of Firiona Vie along the cliffs. 40-50, still, you are pretty powerful with a good bow and a nice quiver and a velium swiftblade (one of the cheapest and best haste items, but only really good for archery since it takes a weapon slot).

Like I've been saying....for anyone playing a ranger (or someone who wants to solo) ....don't ignore your bow. It really is a strong tool. Even if you group a lot, being able to pull out your bow and take a mob down to 70-80 percent life for free before it gets back to the group is pretty nice. Or being able to root something off to the side and kill it while people med (costing everyone else nothing and not getting in the way of you medding) is also pretty impressive.

I've gotten to 55 now mostly with the bow and mostly soloing....and it has been a lot of fun. It becomes even crazier if you get your hands on a skydarkener around level 50 and show up to AE camps claiming them. Oh, and since you are only limited by your quiver size, you can overpull and eventually wear whatever is after you down. "Wait....is that ranger...AE kiting 12 wyverns? :|"

http://i.imgur.com/9yM5l3O.gif

[Erati]

Bow of the Huntsman is stupid rare

I have killed Grand Huntsman what feels like close to 30 times in the past month and never once have seen anything other than crappy Boots of the Huntsman

[Heebo]

Bow of the Huntsman is stupid rare

I have killed Grand Huntsman what feels like close to 30 times in the past month and never once have seen anything other than crappy Boots of the Huntsman


Grand huntsman doesn't drop the bow, Gleed Dragonhunter in Kael does. I suggest you quest it. No faction required with sneak.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Gleed%27s_Bow

[Llandris]

Bow of the Huntsman is stupid rare

I have killed Grand Huntsman what feels like close to 30 times in the past month and never once have seen anything other than crappy Boots of the Huntsman

You're killing the wrong NPC :p

[Erati]

well derpa derpa

I just assumed "Bow of the Huntsman" was from the Grand Huntsman, especially since he drops Boots of the Huntsman !

ty Heebo <3

[koros]

This isn't even close to reasonable dps. 2x jade maces will significantly outdamage this for 1500pp and way less effort.

[Ivory]

This isn't even close to reasonable dps. 2x jade maces will significantly outdamage this for 1500pp and way less effort.

Non-believer! Don't take that 10 dps as the real dps I was doing -_-

[koros]

Non-believer! Don't take that 10 dps as the real dps I was doing -_-

What was your real dps? I have a ranger with maxed archery and it was never that impressive.

[Ivory]

What was your real dps? I have a ranger with maxed archery and it was never that impressive.

25-40 it seemed on most of the fights without trueshot. Depended a lot on how much I cast that fight (I was more lazy with the casting since I was trying to save mana to help heal). With trueshot I was at 50-55dps about (not using BFG).

[RDawg816]

[QUOTE=Ivory;2299746With trueshot I was at 50-55dps about (not using BFG).[/QUOTE]
Not to mention that's without getting hit, either. :)

[koros]

25-40 it seemed on most of the fights without trueshot. Depended a lot on how much I cast that fight (I was more lazy with the casting since I was trying to save mana to help heal). With trueshot I was at 50-55dps about (not using BFG).

Cecily said you were doing 1/3rd her dps tho. She certainly wasn't doing 75-120.

[Troxx]

10 dps? A meleeing bard with OK weapons would still put out more dps. A lot more dps ... And bard melee dps is bad. To put it into perspective, 1 chant dot is more than 10dps.

Color me not impressed with archery still. It's neat for pulling, passable with trueshot, and otherwise worthless other than as a solo trick to not get hit for part or all of the fight.

The dps as parsed is still really bad. Ranger melee dps is considerably better.

[Cecily]

I don't think those parses suppressed the pulls, which take awhile there, so just look at the total damage, not DPS. That's the important number.
And please don't bring bards into this.

[maskedmelon]

Given that time in combat is about the same, I don't see how the 10dps is off :/ Archerynis a nice tool to do things you can't with melee, but I don't see any point to make it out to be something it is not. Its not worthless, but its uses are limited ^^

[Ivory]

10 dps? A meleeing bard with OK weapons would still put out more dps. A lot more dps ... And bard melee dps is bad. To put it into perspective, 1 chant dot is more than 10dps.

Bows don't do 10 dps -_- lol

[Cecily]

Cecily said you were doing 1/3rd her dps tho. She certainly wasn't doing 75-120.

1/3 of my damage*. Without a lengthy pull, I do about 75 dps on these frogs, yes.

[Troxx]

1/3 of 75 (25) is still really low output at level 55 and required 35 stacks of arrows. You said don't bring bards into this, but that is bard level melee dps contribution - and bard melee is bad. A hasted/buffed level 55 shaman pet puts out 20-25 continuous dps.

You commented on the fact that the little time she spent meleeing was about the same output. Was this also while swinging the terrible awful no good for anything but using a bow velium swiftblade offhand? With a real weapon and lesser but reasonable haste ranger melee dps wins handily and doesn't require you buy (restock), fletch (restock), or waste time summoning arrows (time better spent meditating for heals/nukes/buffs/whatever).

Archery is a tool for pulling, trueshotting, and assisting with soloing. For all the reasons you listed in your OP it certainly is better now, but it still is not good. I main'd a bard from 2000-2003 during and after this era. Archery did not get good until luclin. In luclin with am3 and EQ it was godly.

[Cecily]

25 dps is 1500 damage per minute. That's considerable. It's actually double what epic druids do mana free, which happens to be good enough to kill mobs solo. If you halve that for rooting or otherwise soloing, it is what epic druids do mana free, which happens to be good enough to kill mobs solo. The point here is archery a viable alternative for soloing without being extremely geared. Imo, yes it is.

*Tolerable damage output
*Infinitely sustainable w/ Tolan's bracer. 1 min of summoning gets you 80 arrows.
*Can med / cast spells while attacking
*You don't get hit

The melee weapons were flamesong / velium axe. Procing weapons that suit her dex build / budget.

[Troxx]

Edit- in my last post I meant to say I mained a ranger from 2000-2003. It was my first legitimate character and I took it through kunark all the way up until PoP/GoD. I used archer extensively, but prior to luclin only as a tool to help me solo as a class that otherwise struggled without it. The low damage output and longer kill times were only worth it as it allowed me to not have to spend as much down time healing or kill things that I couldn't kill toe to toe.

If you're soloing you're dealing with a rooted or snared and moving target and losing 50% of your bow damage. 25 dps now becomes 12. My point is, if the mob is not moving or rooted your weapons will net more damage production with less wasted time/resources. Outside if trueshot, not really viable or worth it. You do less damage and waste arrows. If you have unlimited arrows via tolans that 80 arrows a minut also means you lose 10 ticks of meditating.

Your parses only reinforce that. You could make the case that it might be worth it in a group IF you need to meditate as you can get in med ticks while shooting - but the contribution to a group would still be more sufficient in most cases by getting stuff dead faster.

Her weapon choices at 55 are also not so great even with the budget stuff. If she has 200 dex (2 proc primary a minute 1 offhand) the spell proc component of her weapons only contributes 4.083 dps assuming 0 resists. On a tight budget, She'd be better off with a cheap, fast jade mace primary at level 55 and a higher ratio offhand. Funds permitting, 2handers are the go-to prior to epic level weaponry.

What haste was she using when meleeing?

Nobody has ever argued it wasn't good for soloing. It allows a melee class to damage an enemy without taking damage themselves. It's not going to help you kill fast, but it will help you kill.

[maskedmelon]

25 dps is 1500 damage per minute. That's considerable. It's actually double what epic druids do mana free, which happens to be good enough to kill mobs solo. If you halve that for rooting or otherwise soloing, it is what epic druids do mana free, which happens to be good enough to kill mobs solo. The point here is archery a viable alternative for soloing without being extremely geared. Imo, yes it is.

*Tolerable damage output
*Infinitely sustainable w/ Tolan's bracer. 1 min of summoning gets you 80 arrows.
*Can med / cast spells while attacking
*You don't get hit

The melee weapons were flamesong / velium axe. Procing weapons that suit her dex build / budget.

The only problem I see is that even if if it were 25dps with you tanking, then solo it will be half that because you will either root it or it will be moving and the 25dps reflects double damage for non-moving, non-rooted mob, yes? Unless you girls were rooting everything, which I would guess no? That means it is back down to 12.5dps solo :/

[Ivory]

My numbers were showin a bit different....since procs + spells make a difference to archers. All non-trueshot and all against the forager with a fair number of hits to get a better average. And this is just with light casting, throwing in a call of flame here or there.

If you want to spike your DPS, it is easy to burn up a bit more mana while archering.

http://i.imgur.com/27bG1jQ.png

[maskedmelon]

That's what I was thinking. Not sure on the 1/2 damage, but I would think bow kiting DPS would be significantly lower than bow dps in a duo/group/raid situation.

This isn't the "best melee solo dps" thread, though. So I think we're just talking about viability of bow dps and rather I should yell at some ranger I am grouped with for hanging back and shooting arrows as opposed to going melee. Apparently not if they've got even a decent bow. Was a surprise to me. Glad there are some numbers to back up what, up until now, was anecdotal assertion.

The half values is because at 51+ rangers deal double bow damage to stationary targets that are not rooted ^^

The numbers Ivory just posted are very respectable though.

[Aadill]

One thing that really doesn't help this case, though: the higher level the mob or the more AC it has, the less likely you'll ever get a big enough hit to be measurable damage. Of course, that also applies to weaponry at the moment as well. If I'm not mistaken, and I probably am because I just logged in yesterday for the first time in ages, ALL of the offensive upgrades are not in yet for rangers, yes? It tuned them more for melee UNTIL Luclin with the advent of archery-based AAs, which we won't see here.

[Ciroco]

Haste - Worn item (besides Swiftwind) / fleeting quiver haste functioning. This is absolutely huge for soloers.


Is item haste actually applying to bows now?

[TheBiznessTZ]

primal bow is pretty nice dps... just gonna put it out there i def use it over the windy if im just trying to do dmg