Yet another Paladin Race thread!

[tolinwiz]

Hey everyone,

I'm torn on the race to make my Paladin alt. I'll have access to fungi/haste all that jazz to level, so I'm not terribly worried about base stats.

I am, however, a huge lover of the fashionquest meta. The idea of an erudite paladin is very appealing to me in the sense of being extra rare, in an already rare class.

Humans are pretty baller status in armor (IMO) as well, but I've already got a human bard, so it's a bit redundant.

So, basically, I'm liking the idea of the Erudite.

The rub however, is the Nature's Defender sword. I'm torn, because it seems like a relatively "easy" weapon to attain, but, I'd be forced into an elf race to use it. I could see getting behind the idea of a high elf paladin, if the wis thing makes a huge difference here in Velious, but it would probably always fall second to my interest in the Erudite.

So, to get to the meat of my question here. Is the Fiery Defender viable to attain for a casual player? I work from home, so tagging along on an afternoon Hate raid or 10 wouldn't be the end of the world. The Fiery Avenger, as far as I can tell, is like a 10k MQ to grab the book with a minor group fight in Miragul to complete. The other fights, outside of the Hate item, don't seem too terribly difficult to wrangle up players to help out with (also assuming they're not typically very contested).

If the Fiery Defender is not "that" (big relative here..) hard compared the Natures Defender, I think I'd ultimately choose the Erudite. (I prefer the flame graphic anyhow). Or is the High Elf, with the option for both (and the higher wisdom) just that much of a better choice? Please, help me make this extremely subjective decision! :)

Thanks everyone!

[RDawg816]

If you're wanting to go Tunare, half-elf is generally a better option because of starting stats.
Both swords are relatively easy to quest, but the ND is of course, easier.

Ultimately the question is, would you hate yourself more for not being an Erudite or for not having access to an easy quest weapon you might replace anyways...?

[Sage Truthbearer]

I'm a High Elf and I recommend going Erudite. There's nothing special about ND. I have one, and never use it other than for showing off how cool it looks. I'd much rather use my epic or one of my Velious weapons.

If I could remake my Paladin, I would be Erudite with Prexus diety.

[Colgate]

unless you're in bleeding edge high end raid gear high elf is far and away the best race

[Vallanor]

You are totally correct about the paladin epic quest. It can be one-grouped if you purchase a Book of Scale, and it doesn't have any major bottlenecks. It's actually a pretty fun quest too if you go through all the dialogue and get nice and immersed.

So go erudite in my opinion. Quest lines are fleeting, but fashion is forever.

[Erati]

max Deepwater knights if u do FD

[Chrysus]

I wouldn't recommend Erudite if you want to win fashion quest, their velious gear has several graphic bugs and looks awful:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227187
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213678&highlight=erudite

Also your sleeve clips through your shield when using one, and the bracer of benevolence looks terrible on an Erudite too. None of these things are likely to ever change.

I'd swap to human if I could for fashion quest, or Half-Elf for the Innoruuk mask.

[nothsa]

keeper of the tombs is a bottle neck FYI

[Chaboo_Cleric]

unless you're in bleeding edge high end raid gear high elf is far and away the best race

Truth ^

[Vallanor]

keeper of the tombs is a bottle neck FYI

Compared to most other epics, it's a very minor bottleneck. But it's true that Keeper of the Tombs probably won't be up for days and days waiting for you to find him.

OP should note that the Plane of Hate part of the Nature's Defender quest isn't exactly a walk in the park. That zone is an enormous pain in the butt with really wonky aggro and pathing and the 2nd floor mobs are no joke. Still easier than the epic, but you'll need a legitimate Hate raid with 3 or more competent groups for a couple of hours to realistically tackle it.

[Raev]

unless you're in bleeding edge high end raid gear high elf is far and away the best race

what? are you serious?

[Trungep99]

what? are you serious?

well high elves have the worst str, dex and stamina starting stat. but the best wisdom and decent agility.

but if you take it to end game gear i dont think it will really matter.

[Sage Truthbearer]

IMO you guys are making it way too complicated. Just pick whatever race you think looks the coolest. Min/maxing doesn't matter, you chose to roll a Paladin so it's already assumed you don't care about that.

[Trungep99]

IMO you guys are making it way too complicated. Just pick whatever race you think looks the coolest. Min/maxing doesn't matter, you chose to roll a Paladin so it's already assumed you don't care about that.

but as a tank class there is a big difference between the starting stats of each race. which can give a large advantage.

[Danth]

but as a tank class there is a big difference between the starting stats of each race

Not for Paladins there isn't. Race just doesn't matter all that much for this class. The best tank-type race available to Paladins--Dwarves--pales next to races like Ogres or Trolls. None of the Paladin races have fancy advantages like Regeneration or frontal bash immunity or Slam. Dwarves are the best available, but not by much, with Humans and Half-Elves making fair alternatives for folks who don't want to be short. High Elves and Erudites are a bit worse, but it still isn't a big deal aside from probable issues with encumbrance for folks without some +strength gear. A few races have access to some quests the others don't get, but the factions are overall similar, they level at the same speed, and in essence any Paladin plays pretty much like any other Paladin. Pick the one you think looks the best because that's by far the most significant difference between them.

Danth

[Naxi]

Paladins are hindered by race choices compared to other tank classes. Paladins can be Dwarf, Erudite, Human, Half-elf, and High Elf. Tunare Paladins are scumbags. Shadowknights have Ogre/Troll/Iksar to consider from a min-max perspective, and Troll/Ogre starting stats crush Paladin race choices. We got hosed on racial choices compared to other tanks.

Basically Dwarf is the best because of their starting stats, barrel roll, being small, and being elite. Erudite is semi-cool because Prexus is a pretty cool god and they are rare. Humans have amazing staches.

The Tunare sword is cool looking and all, but the epic is better and not too hard to obtain. There are a lot of ToV knight weapons and the Darkmetal Falchion from hate is pretty legit and easy to loot. Even the Tunare Paladins admit they only use their dumb 2her to look cool. But being an elf is already a net negative on looking cool despite wielding a baller sword.

[Colgate]

what? are you serious?

?

wisdom is the best stat for a paladin, it's very hard to max that as a non high elf unless you have high end raid gear

str/dex/agi are easily maxed through buffs as any paladin race

stamina is fairly easy to max as a plate class, but like i said, stamina isn't as good as wisdom for a paladin

[Sage Truthbearer]

Let's not forget that High Elves also get a cat mask, putting them streets ahead of the competition.

http://i.imgur.com/SmS2dj8.jpg

[Nagash]

Dwarves: barrel rolls man! Barrel roll!

[Vallanor]

I wouldn't recommend Erudite if you want to win fashion quest, their velious gear has several graphic bugs and looks awful

Lies! Look at this fashionquest winner!

http://i.imgur.com/Fq5gib3.jpg

[Sage Truthbearer]

To be fair though the Erudite custom helmet is buggy as hell.. and it will likely never be fixed.

[Raev]

stamina is fairly easy to max as a plate class

Well, if you check Sage's magelo he has 120 stamina unbuffed . . . .

but like i said, stamina isn't as good as wisdom for a paladin
Why? Seems like HP > mana for a paladin unless you are (god forbid) solo or PVP

[Vallanor]

I admit to being pretty bad at this game, but I value Wisdom below Strength and Stamina on my paladin. I assume Colgate is talking about PvP paladins specifically?

[Farzo]

unless you're in bleeding edge high end raid gear high elf is far and away the best race

^

and go all wisdom -- a hie can start with 120 wisdom, @ 60 the 20 or so extra wisdom = a extra heal or celestial cleanse ( hoT ) so you either have 100-200 more hp@ 60 for choosing a dwarf or an extra heal of 543-700hp.
now translate that to soloing/tanking ( you're never gunna be tanking much more than Kunark bosses and entry level velious named, i.e I've tanked mobs like PD, Dracolich, HoT named/ToV Drakes ) so therefore in the long run its better to have extra mana

as a dwarf paladin I stupidly went str/stm but lucky have access to some fine velious loots: my str is around 233 and stm is closing in on 170ish, my wisdom is hurting though and will only break 3k mana once I get a Dwarf Slayer Belt and Silver Bracer of Speed.

Had I rolled a HIE, I would easily see my self having 3k mana already.

I am building my Paladin around a balanced blend: aiming for 5.2k hp, 1.4k+ac and 3k+ mana with aego/fos/stm buffs.

[Farzo]

Lies! Look at this fashionquest winner!

http://i.imgur.com/Fq5gib3.jpg

like it!

[Trollhide]

A counterpoint to the wis argument though.. While a bigger manapool is of course nice, it only really benefits you in a fight where you start at 100% mana and have a reasonable expectation of running completely OOM before the fight is over.

I can't remember the last time I did that in EQ.

[Colgate]

Well, if you check Sage's magelo he has 120 stamina unbuffed . . . .


Why? Seems like HP > mana for a paladin unless you are (god forbid) solo or PVP

each point of wisdom is roughly 10-11 mana before the 200 softcap, which is the scope that we're speaking of anyway

each point of stamina is 5.2 hp

celestial cleansing returns about 3x the amount of hp more than the amount of mana you invest in it (700 vs 225)

so, when factoring into healing yourself, which you should be doing very often since celestial cleansing is such a retarded spell, even in a group scenario, wisdom becomes around 6 times more effective than stamina for a paladin

when factoring into healing others, wisdom is infinitely more effective than stamina

for each 3 points of wisdom, that allows you to cast about 1 more stun, and for every 6 points of wisdom, that allows you to cast 1 more enstill

so, for both soloing and grouping, i can't ever see why i'd want to prioritize stamina over wisdom; it's not like paladins often tank things where an extra 130 hp (dwarf) is going to help me more than an extra ~125 mana (high elf)

when considering raiding, your hp pool doesn't matter whatsoever as a paladin, but your mana pool does

[Colgate]

I admit to being pretty bad at this game, but I value Wisdom below Strength and Stamina on my paladin. I assume Colgate is talking about PvP paladins specifically?

you can get capped strength from shaman buffs alone, not even counting primal essence or avatar, if you have 120 strength

coupled with the fact that paladins get yaulp 3 (+30 str) and are supposed to get yaulp 4 (+40 str), and frenzied strength (shit buff but +40 str still), there is honestly zero reason you should even think about strength

plus, you're playing a paladin, strength shouldn't even matter anyway because at the end of the day you're doing like 15 damage per second at best

[Vallanor]

As Trollhide mentioned, however, mana pool size only ever matters when you blow an entire mana bar in one fight. This really doesn't happen all that often. It's why wizard dps sucks so bad in normal exp groups even if they stack +INT and +mana items to maximize their pool. Mana regen is what determines long-term spell casting ability for dps or for heals.

Similar things could be said of hps, but complete heal actually does become more efficient as the tank's total hp pool increases.

[Colgate]

i tend to blow my paladin's entire mana bar all the time in both groups and soloing; i guess it just depends on how actively you're pulling and how involved you are in crowd control as a paladin, which you should be

[Trollhide]

Are you talking about going oom over multiple pulls, or going from fm to oom within the course of a fight? Cause more wisdom is only going to meaningfully affect one of those.

[Colgate]

both

[Vallanor]

The faster you pull and the more efficient your group, the less likely you'll have time to med to full mana though. I really see your long term casting ability as being largely disconnected from your maximum mana, but to each their own.

I do agree Strength is probably overrated, but I don't see Wisdom as crucial enough to roll a cat-headed elf man who worships trees over a glorious defender of the high seas. Roll erudite. :P

[Sage Truthbearer]

Well, if you check Sage's magelo he has 120 stamina unbuffed . . . .

I'm probably not a good example, I'm around 133 STA but I'm in full kael armor which has significantly less STA than the HoT set. I also went 20 STR with my starting stats. But with full HoT armor and the right starting stats he's probably correct that you can get near cap when fully raid buffed, even as a High Elf.

[Trollhide]

One thing I have taken away from this thread is f natures defender. Am rerolling my L1 half elf back to dwarf when I get back to EQ in a couple months. Didn't realize pally epic was that easy, and beards & barrel rolls > *

[Colgate]

half elf is actually by far the worst choice anyway

[Colgate]

The faster you pull and the more efficient your group, the less likely you'll have time to med to full mana though. I really see your long term casting ability as being largely disconnected from your maximum mana, but to each their own.

I do agree Strength is probably overrated, but I don't see Wisdom as crucial enough to roll a cat-headed elf man who worships trees over a glorious defender of the high seas. Roll erudite. :P

if you go out of mana, regardless of the scenario, it means you used the extra amount you had over another choice

which in turn means it was worthwhile

[Trungep99]

at the end of the day, paladins are tanks. stamina is the most important stat despite your race choice. also make sure you have 75 base agility to avoide the mitigation cap

[Colgate]

nope

[Farzo]

It's very easy to go oom on a Paladin: if you're not oom after a big fight your contribution was shit dps unless you tanked.

HoTing yourself/or others is great. 225manax4 hots = 4x700hp (not counting the extra server ticks you get on the HoT sometimes) means the healer didnt have to heal you/or others for 2800+ hp. For most Pallies that is 40% of their mana.

You want to 100% gear your paladin for a healthy manapool because once you ARE oom and LoH'd down you're a trashcan dps. A Paladin's contribution is CCing/Healing/Tanking all of which require mana, so what would you prefer: a slight impact from str/dex/agi/stm or an extra heal?

Especially on a Blue Server where you can optimize your toons alot more towards raw stats. Eventually there will be 3.5-4k mana pool BiS paladins but I dunno what you'd do with a Paladin like that on a Blue server...on Red99 you could have alot of fun. (on Red you need to have resists on at all times so items without resists are less preferred).

[Farzo]

(Think of stamina vrs wisdom arguement with Shamans - you want 20 stamina because its easy to cap your wisdom and that 20 stamina = an extra canni so you get better mana returns from stamina in the long run)

[Heebo]

The holiest paladins hail from Rivervale.

[Sage Truthbearer]

It's very easy to go oom on a Paladin: if you're not oom after a big fight your contribution was shit dps unless you tanked.

HoTing yourself/or others is great. 225manax4 hots = 4x700hp (not counting the extra server ticks you get on the HoT sometimes) means the healer didnt have to heal you/or others for 2800+ hp. For most Pallies that is 40% of their mana.

You want to 100% gear your paladin for a healthy manapool because once you ARE oom and LoH'd down you're a trashcan dps. A Paladin's contribution is CCing/Healing/Tanking all of which require mana, so what would you prefer: a slight impact from str/dex/agi/stm or an extra heal?

Especially on a Blue Server where you can optimize your toons alot more towards raw stats. Eventually there will be 3.5-4k mana pool BiS paladins but I dunno what you'd do with a Paladin like that on a Blue server...on Red99 you could have alot of fun. (on Red you need to have resists on at all times so items without resists are less preferred).

I have to agree with Farzo here.

The reality is that Paladins do not have a significant role in tanking in Velious. What we do have a role in doing is patch healing where WIS does absolutely matter.

Especially on big fights, I used to go OOM all the time keeping myself + entire group topped off with my HoTs. If I had more mana, that's more HoTs I can cast.

[Vallanor]

For a big fight, I agree. Blowing a whole mana bar means you're doing something right. Same story with my wizard.

For a one-group scenario, however - which is where paladins really shine - I don't think the size of your mana pool is all that important. I'd probably stack hps instead.

[Abilge]

I keep hearing about Prexus Pallies. I have to ask what item is so amazing and Prexus locked to make them so great.

[Colgate]

high elf > dwarf > erudite > human > half elf

erudites not 2 bad

[Leiker]

I rolled human female because they look the best in velious plate.

Stats really dont matter much.
I see wisdom vs. stamina being argued, but I think I was leveling and grouping casually, especially in places like Sebilis and HS, I used to cast a lot of lulls and pacifies. Getting charisma buff and having a few charisma heavy items like crown of king tranix and fear paladin boots (iirc, this was back in kunark) was really nice because it helps with successful lull pulling.

If you like playing casually and grouping a lot, I actually would not discount charisma as a stat. Ultimately 25 charisma wont make a huge difference, but it will help you be a better puller and imo I dont think going full stamina or wisdom is a bigger advantage for a casual player.

That being said, I think I went full stamina.

Do whatever you want, epic is fairly easy, ND looks cool but ultimately its no big deal.

[Baler]

I believe that dwarf is the best race for Cleric & Paladin.
If you're not going for the best then pick any race you want.

It's like Ogres being the best warrior race.
The argument of high elf vs dwarf boils down to. Mana vs min/max starting stats.

[Colgate]

halfling is the best cleric race

iksar is the best warrior race

??

[Trollhide]

iksar is the best warrior race

Iksar has the worst melee animations, this is FashionQuest after all

[Colgate]

use blunt weapons and it's all goog

[Ivory]

What if paladins could be gnomes....what if......-dreams-

[Trungep99]

What if paladins could be gnomes....what if......-dreams-

they would then be almost as weak as high elves but less wisdom . so not very strong, but cute.

[cuthbertAG]

IMO you guys are making it way too complicated. Just pick whatever race you think looks the coolest. Min/maxing doesn't matter, you chose to roll a Paladin so it's already assumed you don't care about that.

This post has made me want to play a paladin again. Thank you Sir Truthbearer.

[Achromatic]

This is my 60 erudite paladin

http://wiki.project1999.com/images/thumb/Magelo2.jpg/370px-Magelo2.jpg

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Oblie

All hail the Deepwater Knights!

EDIT: I went for max AC and STA on this guy btw.