Archery uses STR instead of DEX!!!!

[Ivory]

I hope you are sitting down...because this is bad news....

Today me and another archer were hunting together....and we discovered the biggest Norrath shattering bug in the world!!!

Archery....is using STR as a modifier....instead of DEX!!!!

All this time I have been maximizing my DEX!! Because archery SHOULD use dex like melee weapons use STR.....but it doesn't!!

We discovered it when we were both archering, and I noticed him hitting way more than me. Surely this was impossible, since my DEX is 226 unbuffed...and his is only 100 or so. BUT he had 225+ str!! and mine is only 99!!

So we stripped him naked and had him archery with low str...and it was true!!! Archering is using the wrong stat!!! Crazy? I agree!! Super crazy!!

Please can you fix this ASAP? This is probably the biggest most important bug ever to have been discovered!!

[Doctor Jeff]

This is a gamebreaking bug if it is true.

[Colgate]

you need to be p strong irl to use a bow

[Doctor Jeff]

you need to be p strong irl to use a bow

Not true.

Archery is actually one of my favorite hobbies and I often see kids classes at the range with like 12 year olds firing compound bows as easily and as far as any other amateur could.

The technology is miles ahead of what it is in Norrath

[Colgate]

are there 2016 real life technology compound bows in norrath?

[Doctor Jeff]

you need to be p strong irl to use a bow


The technology is miles ahead of what it is in Norrath

are there 2016 real life technology compound bows in norrath?

Are you retarded?

[Colgate]

yeah i was definitely talking about real life 2016 technology compound bows when i said you have to be strong to pull back a bow string in real life

holy shit

[Doctor Jeff]

Please answer my question.

[Colgate]

i'm sorry that your mental disease hinders your reading comprehension

[Videri]

you need to be p strong irl to use a bow, so i guess str should determine bow damage heheh epic troll in a bug thread for a game i don't play

I suddenly forget who Colgate is and will try to have a conversation with him.

can't say what i mean can only troll. all in lowercase to show how little i care

I am a twiggy-armed Robin Hood IRL fite me.

We r retards

Free bump for a big bug.

[Videri]

Archery....is using STR as a modifier....instead of DEX!!!!

So we stripped him naked and had him archery with low str...and it was true!!! Archering is using the wrong stat!!! Crazy? I agree!! Super crazy!!

Actually, this indicates that Str affects archery damage, but does not necessarily indicate that Dex doesn't affect archery damage. I'm saying maybe both Str and Dex are affecting it. What happens to your archery damage when you remove your dex gear?

[Ivory]

Actually, this indicates that Str affects archery damage, but does not necessarily indicate that Dex doesn't affect archery damage. I'm saying maybe both Str and Dex are affecting it. What happens to your archery damage when you remove your dex gear?

It stays the same. We saw this with the other archer tonight, since we were hitting the same amounts when he took off his STR stuff too (we have similar bows).

[Lartanin63]

Ya I noticed this when playing both my rangers and bow rotting mobs. Dex is only a factor for your crit chance.

[maximum]

What this bug post is missing is research/Classic proof...

http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0

STR: determines how much you can carry; influences maximum and average damage; influences how quickly you learn many offensive skills

DEX: how quickly you learn weapon skills; how often weapon will proc; how quickly you learn rogue skills; how hard you hit with bows

[Doctor Jeff]

Free bump for a big bug.

lmao, rekt. (rekt me)

[Porky]

Here is the relevant text from the wiki, for those that are lazy. I realize that this is not wholey evidence, as the wiki is player created. The facts, however, are supported by the following patch "announcements" provided by User:Maximum
http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0
(http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0)
Please note that Neriak.com was a third party site.

Archery damage depends on DEX the SAME way melee attack damage depends on STR. STR has no effect on archery damage.


ATK has exactly the same importance for archery that it has for melee.

However, str doesn't change archery atk, only dex does.

REMINDER : the ATK value shown in EQ is the MAIN HAND MELEE ATK only, and does not apply to offhand nor to archery. Off hand and archery atk are calculated the same way that main hand atk is calculated, but use their own values for skill ( slashing/piercing/archery) and for stat ( str used also for off hand, but dex for archery).


Items that increase ATK do influence archery ATK

Dex affects critical hit rate for archery.

Procs and critical hits are based on dex for both melee and archery.


Critical hit rates for archery on war and rngs = critical hit rates on melee for war (Rangers Archery Crit Hit at Level 17+)

Haste affects bow delay the same way it effects melee.


Can we get Elle or one of those other Wizards to help us plebs look into this bug? Or Elle, could you shoot me some tips on where to go hunting? Google is a big place.

[Ivory]

I found this too, from 2000. http://www.castle-grounds.co.uk/eq/warriorfaq.htm#7

"DEX: how quickly you learn weapon skills; how often weapon will proc; how quickly you learn rogue skills; how hard you hit with bows (per Abashi, dex also increases the chance of critical hits)"

It looks like we have enough info now!! They should do an emergency hot-patch to fix it!!!! This is probably the most top priority bug ever to have ever been found in ever.

[Tupakk]

I found this too, from 2000. http://www.castle-grounds.co.uk/eq/warriorfaq.htm#7

"DEX: how quickly you learn weapon skills; how often weapon will proc; how quickly you learn rogue skills; how hard you hit with bows (per Abashi, dex also increases the chance of critical hits)"

It looks like we have enough info now!! They should do an emergency hot-patch to fix it!!!! This is probably the most top priority bug ever to have ever been found in ever.

Nice find, but GL with that emergency hot patch. I hope it does get fixed soon. Gives me a reason to make a ranger as it seems they are getting closer to being completely usable.

[Pint]

This is top notch stop the press stuff but everyone knows the servers top priority and most debilitating bug atm is knight defense skill caps.

[Doctor Jeff]

This is top notch stop the press stuff but everyone knows the servers top priority and most debilitating bug atm is knight defense skill caps.

No, no, no. Knights are intentionally on the wrong hit table and intentionally have the wrong defensive skill caps.

It's a feature.

Hope this helps.

[Porky]

I found this too, from 2000. http://www.castle-grounds.co.uk/eq/warriorfaq.htm#7

"DEX: how quickly you learn weapon skills; how often weapon will proc; how quickly you learn rogue skills; how hard you hit with bows (per Abashi, dex also increases the chance of critical hits)"

It looks like we have enough info now!! They should do an emergency hot-patch to fix it!!!! This is probably the most top priority bug ever to have ever been found in ever.

Good quote. Bump

[Porky]

http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0
(http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0)


bump

[Muggens]

Archery should use STR as modifier, its logical. Has nothing to do with Dex

[blondeattk]

Archery should use STR as modifier, its logical. Has nothing to do with Dex

BS ! dex stat covers hand-eye coordination....eg helps you hit a moving target.

ahh you mean as a damage modifier?

its only logical for hand thrown weapons, not bows. in the real world it would affect rate of fire....stornger folk can pull the bow back quicker. Thats not a mechanical that will appear in eq.

in baldursgate, you needed certain str to use some bows.

the velocity of the arrow depends on the bow design, not weilder str.

[Doctor Jeff]

BS ! dex stat covers hand-eye coordination....eg helps you hit a moving target.

ahh you mean as a damage modifier?

its only logical for hand thrown weapons, not bows. in the real world it would affect rate of fire....stornger folk can pull the bow back quicker. Thats not a mechanical that will appear in eq.

in baldursgate, you needed certain str to use some bows.

the velocity of the arrow depends on the bow design, not weilder str.

Who cares what is logical, the facts are the facts. Archery is supposed to use Dex as the modifier for damage, hit chance, and critical hit chance in EverQuest, the video game.

[aarkhon]

I'm curious on if this is the staff at p99's intent, or if they plan on rectifying this discrepancy. I just rolled a Ranger, before coming across this thread, and would like to know if I should reroll and redistribute my starting attributes.

[Ivory]

I'm curious on if this is the staff at p99's intent, or if they plan on rectifying this discrepancy. I just rolled a Ranger, before coming across this thread, and would like to know if I should reroll and redistribute my starting attributes.

It would be crazy if it were intentional....it simply isn't classic that way!

[renordw]

Bump just noticed this too. I'm maxed out in strength and hitting too hard considering I have like 80 dex.

[Darkyle]

want to roll a ranger but don't wanna waste the precious points :p free bump

[Beinen]

Archery should use STR as modifier, its logical. Has nothing to do with Dex

Regardless of your opinion, Is this classic? The results will determine whether or not strength or dexterity affect bow damage.

[Muggens]

BS ! dex stat covers hand-eye coordination....eg helps you hit a moving target.

ahh you mean as a damage modifier?

its only logical for hand thrown weapons, not bows. in the real world it would affect rate of fire....stornger folk can pull the bow back quicker. Thats not a mechanical that will appear in eq.

in baldursgate, you needed certain str to use some bows.

the velocity of the arrow depends on the bow design, not weilder str.

I'm talking about the real use of a bow, not in Baldur's Gate or other games ;p
In real life some people wont be able to pull back a longbow at all because of their lack of strength.

"Although the draw weight of a typical English longbow is disputed, it was at least 360 newtons (81 pounds-force) and possibly more than 600 N (130 lbf), with some estimates as high as 900 N (200 lbf)."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLlBNnQg6Bs

[Jauna]

Maybe STR was always the determining factor for Archery, making it classic as fuck, probably back then no one cared because Archery was mostly used as a pulling tool outside of a few Tolan's bracer soloing rangers to kill time between groups.

And when Archery did matter in Luclin they all had high DEX anyways from common multi-stat gear maxing out both STR and DEX anyways. That or STR is giving people ATK, while DEX does not give ATK, but increased chance for crits. And stat descriptions were always vague at best, and a crit is still increased archery damage even if it is rare.

As someone who rolled a ranger recently and put everything into STR I like this.. classic feature.

[Doctor Jeff]

Maybe STR was always the determining factor for Archery, making it classic as fuck, probably back then no one cared because Archery was mostly used as a pulling tool outside of a few Tolan's bracer soloing rangers to kill time between groups.

And when Archery did matter in Luclin they all had high DEX anyways from common multi-stat gear maxing out both STR and DEX anyways. That or STR is giving people ATK, while DEX does not give ATK, but increased chance for crits. And stat descriptions were always vague at best, and a crit is still increased archery damage even if it is rare.

As someone who rolled a ranger recently and put everything into STR I like this.. classic feature.


You don't seem to care what is classic at all.
There is a lot of in-era evidence in this thread that proves you wrong.
In this era, Dex was the modifying attribute for Archery. It is not a fact that can be argued.

Brad literally said such.
http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0

[Jauna]

You don't seem to care what is classic at all.
There is a lot of in-era evidence in this thread that proves you wrong.
In this era, Dex was the modifying attribute for Archery. It is not a fact that can be argued.

Brad literally said such.
http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0

Which sounds nice, but there is no separate ATK values for ranged or melee, just ATK. The only thing we can prove is that more STR = more ATK. and ATK is universal to all physical damage we can only assume STR is for Archery.

As I said before, a crit via high DEX can also mean "more archery damage" if you think about it hard enough

[Ivory]

Which sounds nice, but there is no separate ATK values for ranged or melee, just ATK. The only thing we can prove is that more STR = more ATK. and ATK is universal to all physical damage we can only assume STR is for Archery.

As I said before, a crit via high DEX can also mean "more archery damage" if you think about it hard enough

Not true, ATK only shows for main hand in the UI....but there should also be hidden stats for ATK for archery (you can see this is true if you just level your archery up and see there is no progress for ATK value in the UI. But if you level up your 1hb or whatever main hand weapon you have, that ATK value rises).

STR influences ATK for melee weapons, just like DEX should influence it for archery weapons.

[Jauna]

Not true, ATK only shows for main hand in the UI....but there should also be hidden stats for ATK for archery (you can see this is true if you just level your archery up and see there is no progress for ATK value in the UI. But if you level up your 1hb or whatever main hand weapon you have, that ATK value rises).

STR influences ATK for melee weapons, just like DEX should influence it for archery weapons.

All I am hearing is coulda woulda and my dad works at nintendo i know things.

Logically, pulling back a bow requires strength and stamina for quick shots and to not be shaking holding back all that pressure.

In-gameally, there is just ATK. Even on live where you can see other peoples mana bars and dont have to use druids to travel there is no hidden mystical offhand or archery ATK. Just ATK. Skills increases ATK, Offense increases ATK and STR increases ATK. DEX increases your crit chances, and since Rangers can only crit with bows, logic would also dictate that a Crit = more bow damage.

The in-game description is not lying to you, but not really accurate.

[Ivory]

Logically, pulling back a bow requires strength and stamina for quick shots and to not be shaking holding back all that pressure.


Uh....we are talking about a fantasy game....and about the classic game design that was in place....logic doesn't belong here. It is like saying "an ogre should get more AC from a breastplate because the metal would be thicker than a gnomes!! offering more protection! even if they are both bronze! Logically".

In-gameally, there is just ATK. Even on live where you can see other peoples mana bars and dont have to use druids to travel there is no hidden mystical offhand or archery ATK. Just ATK. Skills increases ATK, Offense increases ATK and STR increases ATK. DEX increases your crit chances, and since Rangers can only crit with bows, logic would also dictate that a Crit = more bow damage.


Again, that simply isn't true. Unequip your main hand weapon and see your ATK stat in the UI drop. You think your 2nd hand weapon still equipped is using that very low ATK number?

The ATK in the UI only reflects the main hands calculations. Bow and offhand are hidden ATK stats....

[Jauna]

Uh....we are talking about a fantasy game....and about the classic game design that was in place....logic doesn't belong here. It is like saying "an ogre should get more AC from a breastplate because the metal would be thicker than a gnomes!! offering more protection! even if they are both bronze! Logically".

Again, that simply isn't true. Unequip your main hand weapon and see your ATK stat in the UI drop. You think your 2nd hand weapon still equipped is using that very low ATK number?

The ATK in the UI only reflects the main hands calculations. Bow and offhand are hidden ATK stats....

Fantasy =/= 100% sci fi. Fantasy or not, Strength is required for accurate arrow shots. Straining to hold back a nocked arrow will decrease accuracy.

Also, unequipping my mainhand(even offhand) will bring up my Hand to Hand skill which will factor into my ATK, which is low for anyone that is not a monk or a warrior, argument invalid.

Remember. Weapon skill (ATK) + Offense (ATK) + STR (ATK) = ATK. If you can prove the magical "ranged attack window" that not even live has, then more power to ya

[Doctor Jeff]

Uh....we are talking about a fantasy game....and about the classic game design that was in place....logic doesn't belong here. It is like saying "an ogre should get more AC from a breastplate because the metal would be thicker than a gnomes!! offering more protection! even if they are both bronze! Logically".



Again, that simply isn't true. Unequip your main hand weapon and see your ATK stat in the UI drop. You think your 2nd hand weapon still equipped is using that very low ATK number?

The ATK in the UI only reflects the main hands calculations. Bow and offhand are hidden ATK stats....

This guy is just trying to troll you now, the evidence in this thread is inarguable.

The developers of the original game literally said that the modifier for Archery is Dex, and he is just going on about how in real life you must be strong to use a bow.

It's irrelevant and a waste of our developers time in reading.

[Ennewi]

bump (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f3gEbSI2DU)

[aarkhon]

Bump; just curious as to the status on this bug.

Are we still trying to provide evidence as to whether or not Archery / DEX being correlated is even "classic"? (ie. my EQ game manual states Dexterity is responsible for "...Coordination; affects how much damage you deliver a bow/thrown weapon..."

Or that the correlation is even intended on the P99 server. (ie. maybe they actually wanted STR to affect and be the determining factor for Archery damage.)

Or are we still lacking proof that the issue even actually exists? Logs/Parses??

[Ciroco]

There are hundreds of proven bugs that have not been fixed due to lack of available devs. This is probably one of those situations.

[Videri]

Archery should use dex. It's not because of how archery works in real life, but because of how RPGs are supposed to work. Big burly characters hit things with axes and swords; agile and dexterous characters prance around and twang their bows; frail, robed magician characters use spells...and the powers of each type of character are supposed to be reasonably balanced in a D&D-like universe.

Plus, if both melee damage and archery use the same statistic, then everyone will seek out the same gear. You'd think that in a balanced Everquest, warriors and rangers would be wearing different gear.

[magnetaress]

My arms are weak. I cannot pull any kind of compound bow. I would make a terrible ranger.

[magnetaress]

I also have really severe tremors and caffine shakes, some of it PTSD related. So that would also be a double no go for the bow.

[encopitt]

So is this getting fixed, or do I need to sell off all my dex gear and go STR for bow kiting?
Had no idea this was broken until I saw the note on the wiki.

-encopitt

[ylarik24]

Also bow dmg is increased based off the delay of your main hand. I will post logs later today but its very easy to test put 1 handers on shoot your bow then put a weighted axe or high delay wep on and u will see the dmg increase.

[magikaru]

Bump!!!
Has this not been fixed yet?

My first character in the original EQ was a ranger, and they are seriously crying right now.

[Sisythi]

Is it still this way? Can someone confirm? Just starting p99 and kind of depressed thinking I may need to reroll to fix my stats. :[

[Awsten_Tx]

Str absolutely should affect bow damage. Ever tried to full draw an 80 lb recurve?

Dexterity would have more to do with aim and precision. Damage is all str.

But yes, primary slot damage bonus is the far bigger issue that needs correcting. As of right now we are not getting our non rooted, stationary double damage bonus, nor is trueshot affecting our bonus appropriately.

[Jimjam]

English and Welsh longbowmen used weighty two handed weapons for melee (as they were good for immobilising opponents in plate armor).

They were also the most formidable archers.

Correlation means causation here - clearly using weighty 2 handers has historical precedent for improving the deadliness of an archer.

(:

[Midoo]

fun fact: the draw power needed to shoot an arrow with deadly force comes from the bow's limbs bending to the point of distortion and not really the string. that means you need to be pretty fucking strong to be an archer, not just have good hand eye coordination

in fact in the original d&d rangers were just a subclass of fighting-men who adapted to woodland survival and espionage, sort of like a paladin of nature, and they were expected to be strong and armored just like any warrior. their defining traits is they hung out in the woods rather than in barracks. the og book states "A ranger must have strength of not less than 13, intelligence of not less than 13, wisdom of not less than 14, and a 14 or greater constitution", making no particular mention of dexterity

the myth of rangers being anorexic little dancers probably evolved out of the historical notion ranged military units had to be lightly armored to move to vantage points faster and have a wider range of motion to draw, meaning they were easy to deal with if they were within melee range. this makes sense and explains why their role ingame is to eat the first deathtouch and die, but it doesn't change the fact you had to be rippling with muscle to bend a piece of wood so violently it snaps whatever you were resting on it into a grown man's throat from across the battlefield

[Videri]

Anyway, bump because archery should use dexterity, not strength, in this D&D-inspired video game. (Regardless of how it works in real life.)

[Salaryman]

typical yall never pulled a bow b4, it might take str to pull the string back, but aiming is dex and where your arrow hits determines the damage

[Duik]

No guardian robe?

[Tune]

also if i am holding a really large axe my bow does double damage