Worn haste bug

[gildor]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240857

Haste is not working correctly here. As of last patch they converted items from "Effect: haste" to "haste: +xx%", which affects backstab cool down. This means any haste item that is not sharing the same haste type < Haste: +xx% > will NOT affect backstab cool down. Auto-attack damage is unaffected by this.

I think this also effects kick/bash, but I haven't tested it much.

Up until last patch, most items were NOT <haste: +xx%>. Only a handful, not all, of Velious item had that haste type. Which means for year(s) it was broken.

Not seeing this here in the bug forum. Is this a thing? Can a dev confirm?

[Erati]

it should not list the percentage of the items but i mean we have item links too that also shouldnt be here

haste items should only say "Haste"

[Cecily]

And haste "should" also effect skill timers. When they removed % from the items, they removed it's secondary effect.

[KorafRN]

All items that previously said "effect: haste" were converted to show their %haste as of last patch. Check your plane of sky and kunark hastes... All are % now

Nilbog: Corrected an issue with some haste items sharing values.

[Erati]

so what he corrected broke how haste is interacting with skill refresh?

how did it function in classic?

[KorafRN]

they just converted all previous "Effect: Haste" Items to "Effect: +%Haste". Since Epic weapons haste are a different effect name, they still do not affect backstab cooldown.

All the digging I did just showed that haste should affect ability cooldowns, but didn't really differentiate if that was Item and/or spell.

[nilbog]

Prior to the patch, some haste items were sharing values and the system itself was broken for certain items. To change this, we checked each item to verify the haste amount, and updated the item. A side effect of this was you can 'see' the values again. That should be corrected soon.

One way to fix this is to change the str file from:
5848 Haste: %1% to 5848 Effect: Haste

If haste items should affect cooldown timers, this fix had nothing to do with it. The previous method of how haste was applied to items was wrong, and if that was affecting cooldowns, only some haste items would have 'worked'. If you guys find research about it, update this thread or make a new one with specifics.

[KorafRN]

I should have some parses saved that I did on feshchkone(RIP) with different hastes worn. I'll try to post them tonight or sometime soon.

[KorafRN]

" Before you ask, yes, backstab is affected by haste, just like normal melee."
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/new-to-rogue-class-and-eq.48376/#post-513678

I spent a few hours trying to search for anything regarding Haste and Backstab delay/timer/haste etc, and this is the only thing i found. Spell haste has effected Backstab delay for the entirety of my stay on p99. It makes more sense that Item Haste would act the same as Spell Haste would.

And haste "should" also effect skill timers. When they removed % from the items, they removed it's secondary effect.

This means backstab cooldown was affected years ago when Haste% displayed on items?

Switching <5848 Haste: %1% to 5848 Effect: Haste> must have had an effect other than just visual.



Prepatch Parse logs of backstab time.

VOG + Silver Bracelet of Speed: 5848 Haste: %41%
~5.1sec per backstab round

[Mon Apr 04 22:48:06 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:11 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:11 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:16 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:16 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:21 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:27 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:27 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:32 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:32 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:37 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:37 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:55 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:48:55 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:00 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:06 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:11 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:11 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:16 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:16 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:21 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:26 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:31 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:31 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:37 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:42 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:47 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:47 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:52 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:52 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:57 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:49:57 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:03 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:03 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:08 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:08 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:13 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:18 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:18 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:23 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:23 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:28 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:28 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!




VOG + Renards Belt of Quickness + Gauntlets of Dragon Slaying + Ragebringer (offhand): 5848 Effect: Haste
~6.2sec per Backstab round

[Mon Apr 04 22:50:47 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:53 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:50:53 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:00 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:06 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:13 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:13 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:19 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:19 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:26 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:32 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:32 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:38 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:38 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:45 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:45 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:51 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:51 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:58 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:51:58 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:52:04 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:52:10 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Mon Apr 04 22:52:10 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!


No Spell Haste, No Item Haste:
~7.6sec per Backstab round

[Wed Apr 13 18:05:19 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:05:27 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:05:27 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:05:35 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:05:42 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:05:51 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:05:51 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:05:58 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:05:58 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:06:06 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:06:06 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!


[Wed Apr 13 18:06:19 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:06:19 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:06:26 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:06:34 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:06:34 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:06:42 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!


[Wed Apr 13 18:07:32 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:07:40 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:07:40 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:07:47 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:07:55 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:07:55 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:08:03 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!
[Wed Apr 13 18:08:03 2016] You try to backstab Feshlak ChkOne, but Feshlak ChkOne is INVULNERABLE!

[nilbog]

Switching <5848 Haste: %1% to 5848 Effect: Haste> must have had an effect other than just visual.


Let me put this another way.

If the haste from items was affecting cooldowns, it was not intended. Now that the haste on items is actually fixed, evidence should be gathered that item haste should affect cooldowns. That is how to proceed.

[getsome]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/skills.html?skill=67#m105657276252990

From June 2003

[KorafRN]

"Haste will effect your BS timer. You can nearly halve the 8 second timer with a full gammut of haste buffs/items/songs." June 2003

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/skills.html?skill=67#m105004039723761

I can't find anything within timeline, and it was pretty difficult to find much of anything discussing this. Hope these this quote and the previous one help.

Derp, same reference as getsomes

[Daldaen]

EQCleric 2001 (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2305)

Another tip when grouping with a Rogue is to call your stuns. This way they know that if the mob is facing them that they should hold off using evade and they also have time to move to the mobs back for their backstab. At higher levels 40+ I think you'll find that using stuns, so they can BS, will be more effective than tanking for them. My rogue is 42 with an ac of 750, with dodge and riposte I can tank better than a cleric near my level. BS refreshes every 10 secs with no haste, so a stun every 10 seconds is enough to get them all in.

Doesn't explicitly state that worn haste should drop it but... If any haste did in 2001 it's likely both varieties did.

[Mud]

Here are some post-patch tests I did. For tests 1-3 with Guard Heridion, I backstabbed from the front, which simply gives an additional normal swing and obv wouldn't state "You backstab..." Cooldown for the ability is the same regardless of front/back.

Based on these data, Ragebringer's worn effect haste does not appear to have an affect on backstab cooldown, while worn non-effect haste (Renard's Belt is 41%) and spell haste do. This doesn't answer what is classic or not, but rather demonstrates how things currently are.

Average backstab cooldowns (numbers 1-3 are without buffs)
1. Ragebringer and Renard's Belt not equipped: 10.22 seconds
2. Ragebringer equipped, Renard's Belt not equipped: 10.25 seconds
3. Ragebringer and Renard's Belt equipped: 7.32 seconds
4. Ragebringer and Renard's Belt equipped plus Visions of Grandeur: 5.25 seconds

1. Ragebringer and Renard's Belt not equipped: 10.22 seconds (184/18 = 10.22)
[tue may 03 18:45:02 2016] You backstab Guard Heridion for 159 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:45:12 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 36 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:45:22 2016] You try to pierce Guard Heridion, but miss!
[tue may 03 18:45:32 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 37 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:45:43 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 33 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:45:53 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 29 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:46:03 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 33 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:46:13 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 32 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:46:23 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 18 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:46:34 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 19 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:46:44 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 33 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:46:54 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 47 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:47:05 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 28 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:47:15 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 28 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:47:25 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 37 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:47:35 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 29 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:47:46 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 53 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:47:56 2016] You try to pierce Guard Heridion, but miss!
[tue may 03 18:48:06 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 32 points of damage.

2. Ragebringer equipped, Renard's Belt not equipped: 10.25 seconds (123/12 = 10.25)
[tue may 03 18:48:18 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 88 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:48:29 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:48:39 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:48:49 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 46 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:48:59 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 60 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:49:10 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 89 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:49:20 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 51 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:49:30 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 23 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:49:40 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 67 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:49:50 2016] You try to pierce Guard Heridion, but miss!
[tue may 03 18:50:01 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 73 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:50:11 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 78 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:50:21 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 50 points of damage.

3. Ragebringer and Renard's Belt equipped: 7.32 seconds (161/22 = 7.32)
[tue may 03 18:51:45 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:51:53 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 42 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:00 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 63 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:07 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:15 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 82 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:22 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 86 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:29 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 44 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:37 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:44 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 54 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:51 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 52 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:52:59 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:53:06 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:53:13 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 89 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:53:21 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 49 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:53:28 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 45 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:53:35 2016] You try to pierce Guard Heridion, but Guard Heridion dodges!
[tue may 03 18:53:43 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 78 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:53:50 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 42 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:53:57 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:54:05 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:54:12 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 41 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:54:19 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 52 points of damage.
[tue may 03 18:54:26 2016] You pierce Guard Heridion for 49 points of damage.

4. Ragebringer and Renard's Belt equipped plus Visions of Grandeur: 5.25 seconds (63/12 = 5.25 )
[Sun May 01 20:02:43 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 120 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:02:48 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 299 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:02:53 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 235 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:02:59 2016] You try to backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar, but miss!
[Sun May 01 20:02:59 2016] You try to backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar, but miss!
[Sun May 01 20:03:04 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 120 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:03:09 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 120 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:03:14 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 120 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:03:19 2016] You try to backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar, but miss!
[Sun May 01 20:03:25 2016] You try to backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar, but miss!
[Sun May 01 20:03:25 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 120 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:03:30 2016] You try to backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar, but miss!
[Sun May 01 20:03:35 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 120 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:03:41 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 120 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 20:03:46 2016] You backstab an ancient tigerclaw racnar for 203 points of damage.

[Erati]

Seems like a oversight error - Epic haste effects should be affecting cool downs just like the other haste items, but just because they are not named "haste" they seem to be ignoring the mechanic.

[Erati]

^

[Mud]

bump

[Ivory]

Worn haste is apparently not effecting archery either ATM!!! Which we can all agree is the much more critical issue.

[Mud]

Relevant P99 thread: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167376

April 2002 posts. These are closer to classic era -- still looking for pre-Luclin evidence.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=11417
Pardon me but you are incorrect, haste DOES effect the refresh rate for backstab, as it does for all other special attacks, bash, kick, flying kick, etc. The base timer without haste is 10 seconds for backstab, with a FBSS it's roughly 8 seconds, if you are rage equiped it's 6 seconds.

I am not 100 percent sure, but I think that haste does in fact effect Backstab refresh times. I just checked with Ragebringer equipped and then without it equipped, and the refresh on the backstab button was almost 2 seconds faster with Ragebringer equipped. I believe that RB has a haste of around 40 percent. This was a short little dry run, and I'm gonna do several more tests to get an average to make sure I didn't get a bum sample. If anyone else has done an exhaustive study of this, please post here and maybe save me some time :)

[Mud]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4066&p=2#m99098331135932
thing to remember Rogues is the noticable difference haste has on oppertunity to activate BS/disarm/instill doubt. I BS every 8 seconds with no haste, with FBSS and Alacrity I BS every 6.5 seconds (roughly 38% haste and 19 extra swings per 100). The rates of disarm and instill doubt go up the same as well. With bane of garou (sp) and FBSS I BS every 5.5 seconds (roughly 62% haste and 31 extra swings per 100) You see where this is going?

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=899&p=2#m100158280964208
Most people report the haste to be a 21% speed increase [referencing FBSS], or equivalent a 17% delay reduction (a 100% speed increase gives a 50% delay reduction, as when you are twice as fast, you get things done in half the time :) ).

I have only done a simple test, timing 3 consecutive backstabs to take a total of 25 seconds. Normally they take 10 seconds each. This is a 16.7% delay reduction, so within error, it looks consistent with the 17% expected value.

[Aesop]

Bump I don't want to have to wear my COF again 👿

[Erati]

tons of evidence

pls fix - literally just need to fix specific effects like Seething Fury

[Mud]

Bump--first page worthy. Anyone else care to find additional evidence? This goes for not only rogues, but monks, warriors, etc.

[Erati]

bump - Mud's work in this thread is excellent, worn haste RIGHT NOW affects the timers except the haste effects from epic effects

If it works it should work for all haste effects - clearly bugged due to the nature of the epic spell effects interaction with our clients or something to that affect

is this something that is even possible to fix or do rogues literally have to gear for two haste items if they depend on epic haste for their 40%

[Muggens]

Bump for more rogue DPS

[Erati]

^^

[Erati]

tons of evidence

pls fix - literally just need to fix specific effects like Seething Fury

!

[Renem]

Bump for please fix. Doesn't make sense that you have to wear additional haste items with the Ragebringer just for the Backstab haste.

[Muggens]

This fixed after server being down? Or wait for next real patch?

[Erati]

no one has even commented that it can be fixed let alone fixed already

[Aesop]

bump, come on I wanna wear my lodi shield instead of wearing cof in addition to my ragebringer.

at least make it consistent, so worn % haste doesn't affect the backstab timer either.

[Erati]

bump, come on I wanna wear my lodi shield instead of wearing cof in addition to my ragebringer.

at least make it consistent, so worn % haste doesn't affect the backstab timer either.

no dont listen to him lol - haste should affect the timers for the backstab etc

they just need to examine the code for the specific affects where it is bugged and not affecting the cool down, then tweak it so the client accepts its haste as a factor for the buttons refresh......then again - Lay Hands has been broken for 5 years.

There might be legit issues when dealing with bugs that affects cool downs on buttons, I am not sure if this bug literally has existed since the dawn of time and no one truely noticed til recently or if its something that was introduced with a 'fix'

its very annoying to have to 'gear for haste' as a Rogue who uses a Ragebringer, that should be your haste item, not an additional one so you can simply backstab at a proper rate should your Ragebringer work.

as it stands right now - you must wear a CoF or Sky belt as a raiding rogue. That is unless you are in A/A and have access to many other haste options that are also gear upgrades. It is a non-issue then but the vast majority will experience this issue, and its really something that is wide spread to many classes besides rogues as Ranger's epic also are affected by this plight. Archery cool down is also bugged with this if you use Swiftwind for your haste.

Epics are downgraded due to this one mechanic, its unfortunate esp considering the amount of evidence proving this is indeed not working properly on P99.

[Aesop]

that would be preferable.

[Muggens]

I've no other worn haste than Ragebringer and I cannot afford to shop for a big haste item. Slow backstabs especially in groups with no haste buffs. Any chance of a word from someone on this?

[Mud]

Let me put this another way.

If the haste from items was affecting cooldowns, it was not intended. Now that the haste on items is actually fixed, evidence should be gathered that item haste should affect cooldowns. That is how to proceed.

Nilbog, what are your thoughts on the links I posted at the bottom of the second page?

[Erati]

Nilbog, what are your thoughts on the links I posted at the bottom of the second page?

:)

[Aesop]

yes, I thought those links were case closed on this myself. He probably didn't see them so bump!

[Landylil]

So we good for a fix next patch? This seems like a significant non-classic change that was made. Backstab is supposed to be effected by worn haste. Is more evidence required?

[Renem]

So we good for a fix next patch? This seems like a significant non-classic change that was made. Backstab is supposed to be effected by worn haste. Is more evidence required?

And specifically worn haste that comes from weird effects like Seething Fury on the Rogue epic.

[Erati]

seems like a straightforward fix to me

could Nilbog peruse the code and create some great relief for everyman rogue with only their Ragebringer for haste

[Muggens]

Yes, Ragebringer is straight up 40% haste, and as every other haste item it should affect the BS timer etc, it's clear as day. Lots of evidence too in this thread even though I could not understand that it was necesarry...

[Brooks2728]

Bump - I'm under the impression that this negatively effects people with haste items such as..

Belt of the Destroyer (http://wiki.project1999.com/Belt_of_the_Destroyer)
Windraider's Belt (http://wiki.project1999.com/Windraider%27s_Belt)
Girdle of Dark Power (http://wiki.project1999.com/Girdle_of_Dark_Power)
Silver Bracelet of Speed (http://wiki.project1999.com/Silver_Bracelet_of_Speed)

All of these items display their haste % values in-game - ie: They show as "Haste: 41%" instead of "Effect: Haste"

From what I've read these items displaying their % haste value are no longer speeding up the cool down on abilities like Flying Kick and Backstab.

[Erati]

Bump - I'm under the impression that this negatively effects people with haste items such as..

Belt of the Destroyer (http://wiki.project1999.com/Belt_of_the_Destroyer)
Windraider's Belt (http://wiki.project1999.com/Windraider%27s_Belt)
Girdle of Dark Power (http://wiki.project1999.com/Girdle_of_Dark_Power)
Silver Bracelet of Speed (http://wiki.project1999.com/Silver_Bracelet_of_Speed)

All of these items display their haste % values in-game - ie: They show as "Haste: 41%" instead of "Effect: Haste"

From what I've read these items displaying their % haste value are no longer speeding up the cool down on abilities like Flying Kick and Backstab.

No its the opposite actually. If they show the haste # they are working whereas effects with "haste cooked in" are not.

[Brooks2728]

Ah ok. Sorry for mucking up the thread with false info.

Thanks for the clarification Erati.

[fahlen]

Guess I have a reason to unbank my sky belt now.

[Trazic]

This is a massive bug. It is hilarious thinking about all the rogues running around who are completely oblivious to the fact that they need to equip another haste item when they already have epic.

[Erati]

This is a massive bug. It is hilarious thinking about all the rogues running around who are completely oblivious to the fact that they need to equip another haste item when they already have epic.

been bumping it everyday thinking about those poor souls

[Bummey]

This is a massive bug. It is hilarious thinking about all the rogues running around who are completely oblivious to the fact that they need to equip another haste item when they already have epic.


I'd say for most of us it's not so much obliviousness as simply not having another good haste item. All the 40/41 items are out of the reach of most players on the server, for a multitude of reasons.

Kind of like the Founy thing, it is kind of ridiculous that this has been broken for so long.

[Vicatin]

Is there an eta on the fix? Trying to decide if i should sell my secondary haste item. Thanks mods!

[paulgiamatti]

I'm wearing a CoF and it feels so, so wrong.

[Tulvinous]

This seems pretty straight forward... doesn't matter if it says "haste" or "some other special name for haste" because it's still an increased % to haste which just like spell haste affects combat skill refresh timer.

I instantly sold my FBSS back in the day when I didn't need it anymore... guess its back to a haste belt because of developer bugs.

Any confirmation this can be addressed? If anything... just show the % on all items with haste?!?

[Muggens]

Prior to the patch, some haste items were sharing values and the system itself was broken for certain items. To change this, we checked each item to verify the haste amount, and updated the item. A side effect of this was you can 'see' the values again. That should be corrected soon.

One way to fix this is to change the str file from:
5848 Haste: %1% to 5848 Effect: Haste

If haste items should affect cooldown timers, this fix had nothing to do with it. The previous method of how haste was applied to items was wrong, and if that was affecting cooldowns, only some haste items would have 'worked'. If you guys find research about it, update this thread or make a new one with specifics.

I dont understand this post to be honest...
To recap: Common knowledge on Haste - Every item that give haste affect attack speed and combat timers.
Something was buggy with the "haste file" and changes was made. Now everything works fine except for the Ragebringer, so it does not give combat timer haste. Rogues are seemingly the only ones suffering. They have to prove that the "particular" haste of the Ragebringer should affect combat timers.
Am I right?

Well, Spell Haste works on combat timers, CoF, FBSS etc works on combat timers. Items say "Haste" except for Ragebringer which has a "spell name of haste"(Seething Fury) like Alacrity, Visions of Grandeur etc, but it is the exact same type of haste, as the spells and the item "haste" - Something buggy has happened for sure with Ragebringer, making it less powerful and pressuring poor rogues to buy a second haste item.

[Muggens]

This seems pretty straight forward... doesn't matter if it says "haste" or "some other special name for haste" because it's still an increased % to haste which just like spell haste affects combat skill refresh timer.

I instantly sold my FBSS back in the day when I didn't need it anymore... guess its back to a haste belt because of developer bugs.

Any confirmation this can be addressed? If anything... just show the % on all items with haste?!?

Seething Fury:

1 : Increase Attack Speed by 40%
2 : Increase AC by 9
3 : Increase ATK by 40

Alacrity:

1 : Increase Attack Speed by 34% (L24) to 40% (L36)

Alacrity haste up combat timers, Seething Fury does not.

[Tulvinous]

Rogues don't need to prove anything, just because it's their problem doesn't mean it's their fault. I'm not sure what you don't understand.

Please don't confuse people saying the Ragebringer has a spell haste name, it's just a unique worn haste name. It's unique because as you pointed out it has additional attributes that include AC and ATK along with, you guessed it, HASTE.

[Muggens]

Rogues don't need to prove anything, just because it's their problem doesn't mean it's their fault. I'm not sure what you don't understand.

Please don't confuse people saying the Ragebringer has a spell haste name, it's just a unique worn haste name. It's unique because as you pointed out it has additional attributes that include AC and ATK along with, you guessed it, HASTE.

Im not saying rogues should prove anything, but it was a response to the way Nilbog worded it in his post I replied to.
Im not confusing anyone but you, I say Ragebringers haste is not worded as just "Haste" on the item, but as such in a spell name ("Seething Fury/Visions of Grandeur") because it has several other effects besides haste. It might be the reason to why Ragebringer is not working as other items with the clear "Haste" in its description. Another point I made is that both Seething Fury and the usual haste spell has the same Haste description (1 : Increase Attack Speed by x%) But as we all know spell haste works with combat timers and Seething Fury does not atm.

[Tulvinous]

It's likely because and as simple as this... the rogue epic doesn't show a % on the item for it's worn haste and why it's broken. An attempt to fix one bug produce another, it happens.

[Muggens]

It's likely because and as simple as this... the rogue epic doesn't show a % on the item for it's worn haste and why it's broken. An attempt to fix one bug produce another, it happens.

Yes the bug is because of a change in the programming(which is wording). But Nilbog said to produce evidence that certain/all spell haste or item haste also produce combat timer haste, which everyone knows it does, also theres ton of evidence for it in this thread.
Hence the reason alot of posters have posted all sorts of stuff to show that Seething Fury is the same haste as every other haste, and every other haste provide combat timer haste.


Originally Posted by nilbog:
If haste items should affect cooldown timers, this fix had nothing to do with it. The previous method of how haste was applied to items was wrong, and if that was affecting cooldowns, only some haste items would have 'worked'. If you guys find research about it, update this thread or make a new one with specifics.


This is what I dont understand. Now rogues must prove that Seething Fury provides combat timer haste?

[Zaela]

I don't know what exactly was previously wrong or what the devs changed. But, little history lesson:

In older clients, as we know, most haste items used the worn Effect: Haste method of granting haste. This wasn't the same as a haste buff or a worn haste effect with a specific % -- the amount of haste didn't come from the spell effect, but from a hidden field on the item. (This let them avoid having a different spell called "Haste" for each haste item, since they could just reuse the same spell with different hidden values).

If you think about it, you can see how having Effect: Haste work that way, while also existing side-by-side with rare, fixed-% worn haste effects was kinda odd. The client would have required separate code to handle both cases; having fixed-% worn haste effects at all seems redundant when the hidden field is there to use.

In later clients, the hidden field was done away with, and replaced with the displayed Haste: n% field (explicitly a different field -- a lot of the ancient item fields were relocated and/or changed in later overhauls, plus iirc the hidden haste field did double duty as the min proc/click level on non-haste items originally), and pre-existing haste items were transitioned to this, losing Effect: Haste entirely, if they used it. It's reasonable to think that the code to handle the hidden haste field might have been removed from the client around the same time, which would make the Effect: Haste stuff not work.

And I think you can see how that might leave fixed-% worn haste effects in limbo. Did they rip out the client code to handle that at the same time? But also: did worn effects like that have to deal with buff stacking rules? Did they ever even work correctly? etc. There weren't a lot of worn effect items like that in the classic game, and it was (as far as I'm aware) always vague what, if any, rules there were governing different spell effects when they were "worn".


On the other hand, here's a quick video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-6aWBfWOGU) showing the backstab timer with and without the worn "Seething Fury" effect, in the Trilogy client (and straight from the old spdat.eff marked 2001-08-22 off the CD). About 7 seconds with Seething Fury, and the expected 10 seconds without. Not exactly proof, but it's reasonable to think that if the Trilogy client handled worn fixed-% haste this way (or at least Seething Fury, could be hardcoded I guess), then whatever timeline-specific client version p99 would be on probably would have worked similarly.

[nilbog]

Previously, some items were sharing haste values.

For example.. flowing black silk sash and swirlspine belt. They were sharing a worn effect of the spell: Haste. That was incorrect because they should have different values (fbss 21%, swirlspine 16%). So, I removed the worn effect of Haste from these items and used the actual haste field for the items so the % of haste would be correct. This change only affected items that had worn effect: Haste.

Ragebringer wasn't touched because it was not using the worneffect spell (Haste).

After reading this thread, I queried out which items have haste components built in to their effect, and the results were the following:
Ragebringer
Swiftwind
Tolan's Longsword of the Glade

[Vicatin]

Previously, some items were sharing haste values.

For example.. flowing black silk sash and swirlspine belt. They were sharing a worn effect of the spell: Haste. That was incorrect because they should have different values (fbss 21%, swirlspine 16%). So, I removed the worn effect of Haste from these items and used the actual haste field for the items so the % of haste would be correct. This change only affected items that had worn effect: Haste.

Ragebringer wasn't touched because it was not using the worneffect spell (Haste).

After reading this thread, I queried out which items have haste components built in to their effect, and the results were the following:
Ragebringer
Swiftwind
Tolan's Longsword of the Glade

Nil, thank you for looking into this and the reply. Are we able to assume those items will now affect ability cooldown timers like backstab? Thx kindly!

[Erati]

ty Bog

good work posters - nice evidence

[nilbog]

Are we able to assume those items will now affect ability cooldown timers like backstab? Thx kindly!

That is something that needs to now be looked into. My last post was a supplementary explanation of what was changed with the last patch. Some posters seem confused that Ragebringer was somehow changed, or that correcting the other haste items somehow affected it.

[Aesop]

@Nilbog what do you need from us if anything?

[Aesop]

@Nilbog what do you need from us if anything?

be happy to help with whatever you need sir.

[Mud]

... Some posters seem confused that Ragebringer was somehow changed, or that correcting the other haste items somehow affected it.

I looked through my old logs, and Seething Fury apparently has not been affecting the backstab cooldown timer since at least May 27, 2013 (I got my epic in 2012 but did not start using logs consistently until May 2013). Interestingly, Runebranded Girdle (27% worn haste) also didn't have an affect on the cooldown at that point in time. Something may have changed since then, as my recent tests using Renard's Belt of Quickness (41% worn haste) did show it lowered backstab cooldown by several seconds (see my post on page 2). Spell haste appears to have consistently lowered the cooldown since at least May 18, 2013.

Ragebringer and Runebranded Girdle (27% worn haste) equipped with zero haste buffs or songs: 10.64 seconds (117/11 = 10.64)
[Mon May 27 10:58:48 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 120 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 10:58:59 2013] You try to backstab Coercer Q`ioul, but miss!
[Mon May 27 10:59:10 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 254 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 10:59:10 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 147 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 10:59:21 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 371 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 10:59:31 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 387 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 10:59:41 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 303 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 10:59:41 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 136 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 10:59:52 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 120 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 10:59:52 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 149 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 11:00:03 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 120 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 11:00:14 2013] You try to backstab Coercer Q`ioul, but miss!
[Mon May 27 11:00:14 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 120 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 11:00:24 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 120 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 11:00:24 2013] You try to backstab Coercer Q`ioul, but miss!
[Mon May 27 11:00:35 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 120 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 11:00:35 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 157 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 11:00:45 2013] You backstab Coercer Q`ioul for 280 points of damage.
[Mon May 27 11:00:54 2013] You have slain Coercer Q`ioul!

Ragebringer and Runebranded Girdle (27% worn haste) equipped plus Visions of Grandeur (58% spell haste): 6.9 seconds (69/10 = 6.9)
[Sat May 18 11:32:25 2013] You experience visions of grandeur.
[Sat May 18 11:48:20 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 388 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:48:20 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 388 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:48:26 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 660 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:48:26 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 388 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:48:34 2013] You try to backstab Ixiblat Fer, but miss!
[Sat May 18 11:48:34 2013] You try to backstab Ixiblat Fer, but miss!
[Sat May 18 11:48:41 2013] You try to backstab Ixiblat Fer, but miss!
[Sat May 18 11:48:41 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 120 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:48:48 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 288 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:48:48 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 120 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:48:55 2013] You try to backstab Ixiblat Fer, but miss!
[Sat May 18 11:49:02 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 287 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:49:02 2013] You try to backstab Ixiblat Fer, but miss!
[Sat May 18 11:49:09 2013] You try to backstab Ixiblat Fer, but miss!
[Sat May 18 11:49:09 2013] You try to backstab Ixiblat Fer, but miss!
[Sat May 18 11:49:16 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 120 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:49:16 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 120 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:49:23 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 165 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:49:23 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 293 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:49:29 2013] You backstab Ixiblat Fer for 253 points of damage.
[Sat May 18 11:49:31 2013] Ixiblat Fer has been slain by Siynful!

Back on page 2, I quoted four posts with evidence showing that both worn and spell haste lower backstab cooldown. Unfortunately, only one of them directly references Ragebringer, and it's at the beginning of Luclin era. Nilbog, what are your thoughts on these four posts I quoted on page 2 from Allakhazam?

[Mud]

Interestingly, Runebranded Girdle (27% worn haste) also didn't have an affect on the cooldown at that point in time. Something may have changed since then, as my recent tests using Renard's Belt of Quickness (41% worn haste) did show it lowered backstab cooldown by several seconds (see my post on page 2)

Too late to edit my previous post -- my RBG vs Renard's logs demonstrate the change that Koraf was referring to in the first post of this thread.

[Muggens]

Anything on this? Should I save up plat/dkp for another haste item?

[Bummey]

Should I save up plat/dkp for another haste item?

Yes. Patches are already few and far between, so our wait time on the fix is only increasing as each day goes by. Imagine how long we'll have to wait if it doesn't get added to the next patch's list of fixes, in nine months or whenever that comes out. If you want to do anywhere near the damage you should be doing, look into getting a supplementary haste item ASAP.

[Muggens]

Yes. Patches are already few and far between, so our wait time on the fix is only increasing as each day goes by. Imagine how long we'll have to wait if it doesn't get added to the next patch's list of fixes, in nine months or whenever that comes out. If you want to do anywhere near the damage you should be doing, look into getting a supplementary haste item ASAP.

Yeah Ive been looking into this backstab haste timer business extra careful lately when Im on my rogue - What I can confirm is this:

My rogue only wearing Ragebringer and with Wondrous Rapidity/VoG; haste refreshes every 6 seconds.

Rogues I meet wearing Ragebringer AND RBG/RBB/SCHW and same spellhaste as my rogue; haste refreshes every 6 seconds.

No point in getting an additional haste item to my experience as they do not give any backstab refresh modifier at all. I tried on a pair of SCHW and having no spellhaste on me; backstab refreshed as per regular at 10 seconds. Only spell haste give Backstab haste in this game as I can tell.
Not sure if that is classic... Although according to comments on allakhazam Ragebringer did cut haste timer with several seconds and lots of evidence in this thread imply it should?

Can someone who owns a second haste item confirm to me that their backstab timer refresh faster than without the haste item(not being buffed with spell haste ofcourse)?

[Aesop]

ill try a few tests tonight

[Muggens]

ill try a few tests tonight

Yeah let me just add that Im not using a parser, just a track stop clock hehe.

[Aesop]

yeah im not using a parser either just wanted to see for myself, all approx using a stopwatch.

dragonspine rapier mainhand, no worn no spell haste: 10.5 sec

dragonspine rapier mainhand, rb offhand: 10.5 sec

rb mainhand ds rapier off (just to see): 10.5 sec

dragonspine rapier main, no off + CoF: 7.7 sec

ds rapier + rb + CoF: 7.7 sec

ds rapier + CoF + captain nalot's quickening: 7 secs

so RB didn't affect backstab timer at all, only the CoF did

of course that's not comprehensive or anything just enough so that I know I'm holding on to the CoF and looking to get 41% haste at some point.

[Freakish]

He's looking for proof that haste should be lowering cooldown, not whether or not it is on p99. I don't know what else to add here, seems like there's been proof posted that it should and me adding that's how I remember from live doesn't help.

[Mud]

Back on page 2, I quoted four posts with evidence showing that both worn and spell haste lower backstab cooldown. Unfortunately, only one of them directly references Ragebringer, and it's at the beginning of Luclin era. Nilbog, what are your thoughts on these four posts I quoted on page 2 from Allakhazam?

[Aesop]

I feel like this needs to be normalized,

either all haste items should affect cooldowns

or none should.

[Vicatin]

I feel like this needs to be normalized,

either all haste items should affect cooldowns

or none should.

Seems like the evidence has been presented ad nauseam, just have to wait at this point, unless Nil feels like giving us an update.

[Mud]

One more, barely after Luclin release.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/backstab|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/OAHyHcNV5DA/8423FB8UlksJ

My backstab refreshes every 6-7 seconds or so without a haste buff, and that's 400+ damage almost every time I poke. Sometimes (pretty often, really) doubled. *With Ragebringer and a Willsapper, I can usually dish out around 3400 dpm...and it'd be even more disturbing if I could get my grubby hands on one of the Myrlokar's 15/19 daggers and off-hand my RB.

[qualia]

hi!

does ragebringer's: seething fury act like all my other hastes, again?

[Erati]

mega bump

not sure why this is being overlooked, seems like an easy fix to just remove the effect "Seething Fury" off the epic and instead replace it with +40% haste and however much +Attack the effect is suppose to give

That would INSTANTLY fix the problem and let rogues focus on being rogues rather than stacking haste to properly backstab

thank you!

[qualia]

mega bump

not sure why this is being overlooked, seems like an easy fix to just remove the effect "Seething Fury" off the epic and instead replace it with +40% haste and however much +Attack the effect is suppose to give

That would INSTANTLY fix the problem and let rogues focus on being rogues rather than stacking haste to properly backstab

thank you!

arguably the most important weapon in game... no big deal

[fuark]

mega bump

not sure why this is being overlooked, seems like an easy fix to just remove the effect "Seething Fury" off the epic and instead replace it with +40% haste and however much +Attack the effect is suppose to give

That would INSTANTLY fix the problem and let rogues focus on being rogues rather than stacking haste to properly backstab

thank you!

Also curious why no feedback on this topic

[Erati]

up

[guinness]

Still hoping to get a response about this problem.

[Leiker]

Bump, please fix this!

[Erati]

$$$

[Leiker]

bump for the love of god.

[Aesop]

I don't know that God cares about this, but bump.

[Aesop]

up we go

[Droog007]

I feel like there may be some benefit in attempting to further explain what's happened.

There is a SPELL called "Haste (http://wiki.project1999.com/Haste)". It maxes out at 35%. At some point along the line, the devs were faced with the problem that any item that was labeled with "[Worn] Effect: Haste" would have the same 35% (?) haste as the spell version rather than the correct value for the item (16, 21, 36, etc.).

I gather that in order for items to be labeled classically (not showing the numerical haste value), the value had to be put into a hidden field on the item instead.

Items that had a hastening worn effect called something other than "Haste" (such as "Seething Fury") did not get this change.

So now, I guess that Ability Cooldowns are only affected by worn haste items that have a value in this hidden field.

If I'm on the right track, this can't really account for Ragebringer *ever* affecting cooldowns on P99, unless at some point it was also visibly labeled with a haste percentage in addition to the Seething Fury effect... could that have been the case?

For argument's sake, I'm firmly in the camp that all worn haste effects, regardless of the nomenclature, reduced the cooldowns on abilities like Backstab during the classic era.

[ZiggyTheMuss]

To the top.

[sonicjoose]

BUMP

[anarch]

Mention of Ragebringer and backstab haste during Willsapper discussion (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3949&p=2#m98522437192767)
Actually, even if it werent primary hand ONLY, it STILL deserves to be primary OVER Ragebringer. Use your head, with the primary hand dmg bonus in regular melee, with lower delay u hit with primary hand dmg bonus more often than with ragebringer. Besides, the dmg/dly on this weapon is higher than Ragebringer to begin with, and ragebringer effect is NOT a proc, its perma-effect as long as its wielded. As for Backstabbing, just swap in Ragebringer for the Backstab and swap it back afterwards. Reading this thread makes me realize how many clue-less people are out there :)
is replied with
your not a rogue are you? BS comes back every 8 sec meaning your losing more damage then your gaining by switching the weapon each time... with the haste BS comes back even faster, so better just to pick one over the other. Which i think damage is better while still getting in a good BS :)

Please fix. Thanks.

[Bummey]

This is a travesty.

[delfi]

I mean, 2nd quoted guy above is an arrogant idiot and seems to think ragebringer is only way for rogues to get haste. So a bit hard to take him seriously.

That being said, I think plenty of evidence has been provided to show that both Ragebringer haste and normal haste affect backstab, and other melee skills, cooldown. Fix please :)

[Muggens]

Mention of Ragebringer and backstab haste during Willsapper discussion (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3949&p=2#m98522437192767)

is replied with


Please fix. Thanks.

Good find, confirms haste modifier on backstab with ragebringer by someone playing a rogue in early 2001, if it were any doubts with the devs.

[Tulvinous]

Fixed before Christmas?

[Muggens]

Fixed before Christmas?

Lets all make a wish for it

[anarch]

BUMP - could we get an upgrade please?

[Muggens]

Bump - c'mon so many poor epic'ed rogues saving up for RBGs or CoFs its silly :p

[veejur]

There must be original EQ devs still around on linkedin. If any players know their names, maybe they can dig up something to verify?

[Leiker]

Dont forget about this PLEASE.

[Erati]

silly rabbit, Trixx are for kids ^

[Aesop]

There must be original EQ devs still around on linkedin. If any players know their names, maybe they can dig up something to verify?

This made me laugh but only in my head my face remained stoic.

[Bummey]

this is a travesty

[mastersapper]

So if i can re-summarize the bug:

Items that have actual % haste listed in description such as FBSS (21% haste) are affecting the cool downs of skills like Backstab, Kick, Flying Kick etc.

Items that don't have it's haste % listed such as Ragebringer with it's "Seething Fury", is not affecting cool downs of skills like Backstab, Kick, Flying Kick etc.

This is causing people to wear two different kinds of haste when they normally wouldn't. Ex. Rogue wearing Cloak of Flames and Ragebringer to augment normal melee and backstab.


The other question is whether or not worn haste augmented skill cool downs as well (I believe someone pointed to some allakhazam thread of someone mentioning it).

Regardless if its supposed to augment cooldowns, the way worn haste works on a [cloak of flames] vs. a [ragebringer or swiftwind] is different, and a side-effect of setting real percentages on items vs. setting it through its "worn effect" like Seething Fury.


Did I miss anything? I was thinking about compiling a post with the evidence and the problems laid out clearly. This might help devs pinpoint and tackle this problem. If anyone would like to contribute or take charge of this, that would be great as well!

Thanks.

[Muggens]

Yeah^ This is no weave of complex mysteries, and no need for more "compiling of evidence" as subject matter is as clear as day by now.

Rogues[Ragebringer]and rangers[Swiftwind, I guess Tolans Sword also] are the ones affected by this, Rogues in particular(because of backstab being an important dps factor, way more than Kick and Archery).

There are several posts displaying evidence that Ragebringer cut down refresh timer on Backstab button(as any other haste).

Everyone who plays this game knows Haste cut down refresh timer on Action Abilities.

Its obviously a bug, but for some reason they are reluctant to fix it. <-- This is the true mystery.

[Dolalin]

To be fair to the devs, I think there's just a dearth of time/ambition to pick these issues up and debug/code a fix for them. I used to suspect conspiracy theories but they've shown a lot of will to fix some longstanding endgame issues lately. It's just to find a dev with some spare cycles.

[anarch]

The last time a dev replied to this thread was over 6 months ago. It'd be nice to get some form of confirmation that this is a known bug.

[mastersapper]

This was mentioned before, but a simple fix would be to remove the worn effect like ragebringers seething fury, and add each stat of the effect piecemeal.

Seething Fury turns into 40% Haste, 40atk, 9? AC. Etc.


Seems like the only thing to do is to wait on developer response for any updates/confirmation or if they need anything from the community.


I will continue to bump for as long as Trump is president.

[dangermule]

Can any of the staff/dev team give any comment or updates on this?

Thanks.

[Baam]

Why not just change Ragebringer seething fury to haste40% and add 40 atk and 9 ac to the item stats? Problem solved.

Bump this

[Bummey]

Why not just change Ragebringer seething fury to haste40% and add 40 atk and 9 ac to the item stats? Problem solved.


^ qtiyd ^

[paulgiamatti]

This was mentioned before, but a simple fix would be to remove the worn effect like ragebringers seething fury, and add each stat of the effect piecemeal.

I can't think of a good reason not to do this if it can be done while keeping the item's stats display classic. If the end result is functionally more classic, and the item still displays "Effect: Seething Fury" without listing additional stats, there isn't a logical argument against it.

[Bummey]

Another patch, another disappointment.

[Erati]

Another patch, another disappointment.

might not been in notes should test but yes most likely no change

the change that needs to happen is what I said on like page 2 and what Baam above said:

tons of evidence

pls fix - literally just need to fix specific effects like Seething Fury


Change 'Seething Fury' into just the stats the effect adds on the weapon

Seething Fury:

1 : Increase Attack Speed by 40%
2 : Increase AC by 9
3 : Increase ATK by 40

Slap those stats on the weapon and remove the effect. do this for the other weapons that Nilbog noted and we are done here.

Previously, some items were sharing haste values.

For example.. flowing black silk sash and swirlspine belt. They were sharing a worn effect of the spell: Haste. That was incorrect because they should have different values (fbss 21%, swirlspine 16%). So, I removed the worn effect of Haste from these items and used the actual haste field for the items so the % of haste would be correct. This change only affected items that had worn effect: Haste.

Ragebringer wasn't touched because it was not using the worneffect spell (Haste).

After reading this thread, I queried out which items have haste components built in to their effect, and the results were the following:
Ragebringer
Swiftwind
Tolan's Longsword of the Glade

[Muggens]

The big change we all are hoping for!

[paulgiamatti]

Yeah, I mean, remove the effects (Seething Fury, Swift Spirit, Blessing of the Grove) in lieu of the raw stats, but figure out a way to keep the item stats display classic. Not sure if that's even possible, but a change in the stats display for those items is a legitimate argument against it.

[Jimjam]

Why not just change Ragebringer seething fury to haste40% and add 40 atk and 9 ac to the item stats? Problem solved.

Bump this

Worn item AC comes under a different cap to worn spell AC. Also spell AC is more effective than item AC on a point by point basis. As such, turning worn spell ac into worn item ac would not be equivalent.

That said, I don't see why they don't just keep the worn effects, but also slap 40% haste on to ragebringer/swiftwind/etc. Seems like a good enough bodge.

[paulgiamatti]

I don't see why they don't just keep the worn effects, but also slap 40% haste on to ragebringer/swiftwind/etc. Seems like a good enough bodge.

Indeed, but that begs the question of whether the new "Haste: +40%" would overwrite Seething Fury et al's haste, and if it'd be possible to shoehorn in that item haste without it showing up in the stat display. Or if it'd be possible to modify the Seething Fury et al effects to remove only the haste component, so that the new item haste value could take its place.

[mastersapper]

Can we get a developer to comment? They have to see this... and the paly/sk skill bug.

Two of the most requested and bumped topics in this section.

Wondering if they are working on some kind of solution behind the scenes before making a comment that could be subject to change etc.

Even a "we are aware of the problem" would be greatly appreciated... anything so the community isnt stranded spinning their wheels.

[Bummey]

Can we get a developer to comment? They have to see this... and the paly/sk skill bug.

Two of the most requested and bumped topics in this section.

Wondering if they are working on some kind of solution behind the scenes before making a comment that could be subject to change etc.

Even a "we are aware of the problem" would be greatly appreciated... anything so the community isnt stranded spinning their wheels.


Reread the thread. They've been here. They've heard us. They don't care.

[paulgiamatti]

They'll get around to it. They probably aren't extremely concerned with this issue since it literally only affects three items in the game, and developer bandwidth is already stretched pretty thin. It might be one of the most important issues for rogues, which is what I main, but developing game content like Chardok 2.0 etc. is still more important imo.

[anarch]

Seven months and no confirmation that they consider it a bug. Could a dev take 10 seconds to quote my post and say "It's a bug" please?

[mastersapper]

I know the staff is doing all this for free, and cutting them some slack etc. thank more complain less etc.

But after a while... its like really? I see new bug posts about trivial things like wrong spell graphics being responded to and fixed, lots of low hanging fruit being looked at.

But the ones that are actually detrimental to players and theres a big push/interest in - stubborn silence.

Its like they'd rather work on changes that make it harder for players. God forbid they prioritize fixes that would actually benefit players for once... dont even get me started on their fuzzy 'classic' logic they apply intermitently.

'Aoe cap to 25 because computers wouldnt have been able to handle it back then'... just say you want to stop chardok pulls... dont dance around the issue. Things like that just demonstrate lack of conviction. And thats why it feels like passive aggressive, uncommunicative, and out of touch staff.


Ugh...I think i enjoyed playing more when i didnt read the forums... ignorance is bliss.

On the upside - Cant wait for Path of Exile new update! Buying an xbox just to play their port!

[paulgiamatti]

I see new bug posts about trivial things like wrong spell graphics being responded to and fixed, lots of low hanging fruit being looked at.

That stuff is pretty much exclusively handled by Telin, who wasn't going to be making game mechanic changes anyway. Telin is the aesthetics/low-hanging fruit guy.

But the ones that are actually detrimental to players and theres a big push/interest in - stubborn silence.

Its like they'd rather work on changes that make it harder for players. God forbid they prioritize fixes that would actually benefit players for once

Ignoring an issue that is marginally detrimental to one class whose epic can be obtained in a day doesn't really bother me. On a server as top-heavy and loot-saturated as P99, making rogues' lives a little more punishing can only be a good thing.

'Aoe cap to 25 because computers wouldnt have been able to handle it back then'... just say you want to stop chardok pulls... dont dance around the issue. Things like that just demonstrate lack of conviction.

People are going to complain about this shit regardless of how the staff justifies it, as your post clearly demonstrates. There simply is no way to make any change on P99 without a handful of whiners and ingrates crying for shame.

And thats why it feels like passive aggressive, uncommunicative, and out of touch staff.

Let's not overattribute their silence. Instead of griping about the issues they don't address, be thankful that the server exists at all, and try to show just a little bit of appreciation for the P99 developers who volunteer their time to a largely thankless task.

[mastersapper]

@paul

thanks for bump

[sdp00888]

Bump

[nilbog]

People reply to this thread like it was a new bug. If my previous replies were not clear, this has never worked as intended, since the modifications I made didn't affect it. Resolving the other issues brought this into the spotlight.

I was hoping for a real fix, i.e. code developers discover why Haste effects built into spells were not functioning properly, and go from there. Unfortunately, this didn't occur soon enough.

So, I will look into suggestions posted here, such as removing Haste component from the spell, and adding a set Haste amount to the item itself.

[mastersapper]

That is great news!

Thank you!

[Erati]

thank you Nilbog !

[anarch]

Thank you Nilbog. That's all we wanted to confirm!

[xplit871]

So our way of fixing this is giving the easiest epic in the game a worn 40% haste which makes almost every other haste item worthless? That doesn't seem like a fix to me...

[Erati]

So our way of fixing this is giving the easiest epic in the game a worn 40% haste which makes almost every other haste item worthless? That doesn't seem like a fix to me...

? the only reason haste items besides RB had a use for rogues was bc a bug that shouldnt havt existed in the first place...

it was how do you say a bubble market?

[Bummey]

http://i.imgur.com/3EwbtrB.gif

[Muggens]

Great reading this response from Nilbog - Thanks , Can't wait to see the fix !

[Tulvinous]

yay!

[nilbog]

Pending update:

-Removed haste component from the following spells: Seething Fury, Swift Spirit, and Blessing of the Grove
-Added haste to the following items: Ragebringer, Swiftwind, Tolan's Longsword of the Glade

[Muggens]

Happy days ahead! Pras Nilbog!

[Leiker]

Pending update:

-Removed haste component from the following spells: Seething Fury, Swift Spirit, and Blessing of the Grove
-Added haste to the following items: Ragebringer, Swiftwind, Tolan's Longsword of the Glade

I love you.

[Baa]

Can finally stop bitching about only having 21% haste on my rogue woo!

[paulgiamatti]

Can finally stop bitching about only having 21% haste on my rogue woo!

If you have Ragebringer equipped then you have 40% haste - it's just your backstab cooldown that would be operating on 21% haste or whatever your next best haste item is.

[Baa]

If you have Ragebringer equipped then you have 40% haste - it's just your backstab cooldown that would be operating on 21% haste or whatever your next best haste item is.

Yes, I am aware.

[Bones]

So our way of fixing this is giving the easiest epic in the game a worn 40% haste which makes almost every other haste item worthless? That doesn't seem like a fix to me...
its the exact definition of a fix yes

glad I could clear that up for you

[debuilder]

So our way of fixing this is giving the easiest epic in the game a worn 40% haste which makes almost every other haste item worthless? That doesn't seem like a fix to me...

Are you confused? It's supposed to have 40% worn haste.

[Bones]

also just because rogue epic is going to work properly now doesn't mean all other haste items are now worthless... you are aware there are tons of people that play on this server that aren't epic'd rogues right?

[Gozuk]

Yo I cannot wait for this!

[Aesop]

Can we fast track this somehow? Will a donation help? Need to drop this CoF stat!

[paulgiamatti]

It's already been fixed, pending update.