Monk kick accuracy

[azeth]

is this classic? 100% hit rate?

http://i55.tinypic.com/2h66a0z.png

[Nizzarr]

certainly not classic!

[guineapig]

This might have something to do with monks consistently topping out DPS parses. Rogues tend to get a decent amount of backstab misses.

[Aadill]

I heard a level 35 monk complaining about missing flying kicks the other night, so if it's a high-level miscalculation or something, then that may be worth looking into. I have some more parses with Mr. Sochin being on top of the DPS charts for various raid mobs... I can check those later to verify if high level raid mobs (high ac/agi/defense) still fall victim to his leet feets.

[azeth]

http://i53.tinypic.com/2eupzqg.png

backstab miss rate on the same series of FGs

[Icecometus]

FK min damage is also 40. It should be 1 in classic.

[Trimm]

This is outrageous! No wonder Barfight can threaten me on the dps parse... nerf monks!!

[Blazed420]

furor

[Skope]

I heard a level 35 monk complaining about missing flying kicks the other night, so if it's a high-level miscalculation or something, then that may be worth looking into. I have some more parses with Mr. Sochin being on top of the DPS charts for various raid mobs... I can check those later to verify if high level raid mobs (high ac/agi/defense) still fall victim to his leet feets.

that partly has to do with the cap for 1hb being higher than hand to hand thus the higher DPS with the posky fists.

100% hit rate on kicks is certainly off, though :P

[Icecometus]

Itemization plays quite a roll as well. Monks get higher skill caps and a 1:2 ratio weapon that is not lore and is a world drop in sky, not to mention that their fists have a sick ratio as well at 50. Rogues unite!

[azeth]

oh and i backstab for 418 now with the Efreeti War Spear, 88 more damage than the 330 cap I saw the last time I backstabbed anything.

http://i51.tinypic.com/n2n7yq.png

[Aadill]

I combined a hate and fear clear from 12/8 and got this:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z405/DAProject1999/flyingkick.png

Ain't nothin stoppin that flying kick.

[Ralexia]

I combined a hate and fear clear from 12/8 and got this:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z405/DAProject1999/flyingkick.png

Ain't nothin stoppin that flying kick.

...except for dodging, blocking, parrying and riposting.

[Torqumada286]

What parsing program is that?

Torqumada

[Aadill]

...except for dodging, blocking, parrying and riposting.

Touche. However the kick was capable of connecting, every time.

Either the parser isn't parsing missed kicks right or this is actually an issue with top-end monk abilities. I don't have a monk on P99 so I cannot provide any direct feedback on it. I know Kick for rangers has a large chance of missing and is reported correctly in the parser (GamParse) so take that as you will.

[Loke]

What parsing program is that?

Torqumada

Looks like GamParse.

[Ralexia]

I think you're on to something. While messing around on my 48 monk for about 20 minutes I saw flying kicks only fail to connect on blocks, dodges, ripostes, parries. I haven't seen any "misses" from flying kick despite about 10 failed flying kicks.

[Trimm]

oh and i backstab for 418 now with the Efreeti War Spear, 88 more damage than the 330 cap I saw the last time I backstabbed anything.

http://i51.tinypic.com/n2n7yq.png

Sounds like the melee code that's being used on the test server made its way on to P99. Once I get down from Sky I'll post my findings as well.

[azeth]

bump, any dev thoughts?

[Daltheb]

As someone who regularly enjoys being #1 in DPS, I'm gonna have to ask that this thread be locked and deleted!

In all seriousness though, I went through my parse logs and came up with the following figures for my damage over 415 fights:
http://i.imgur.com/kmSxj.png

For comparison, here's what I see from Azeth over the same period:
http://i.imgur.com/8jz5m.png

If we decided to make Flying Kick work the same as Backstab for rogues, dropping it from 100% accuracy to 61% accuracy, we'd be looking at over a 10% drop in total damage for monks, which would be quite a hefty nerf. It'd also mean that % by dmg type for Flying Kick would drop from 27% to 18%. I'm not sure how it worked in classic but here's hoping my class doesn't suddenly find itself getting raped!

[Ponden]

I know monks have always been high on the dps charts, but there is no way that Azeth should be getting out dps'd with a Freeti War Spear and dragon haste.

here's hoping my class doesn't suddenly find itself getting raped!

I don't think it would really rape the class at all. A monk in classic/kunark/velious should never complain. I wish Rogues were able to tank better, pull more effectively, have poisons work right(screwed class skill since the dawn of EQ FTL), be able to pop a self heal, and put out the same dps as I do now. Sadly, thats how EQ has always been.

[azeth]

I'd like to point out that my dps on Dalthebs parse is bogus due to afk'ing!

[Daltheb]

I'd like to point out that my dps on Dalthebs parse is bogus due to afk'ing!

It's already bogus cuz I don't think you were even present for half of them. The totals aren't really important, but the Accuracy over the fights is good.

[Icecometus]

I know monks have always been high on the dps charts, but there is no way that Azeth should be getting out dps'd with a Freeti War Spear and dragon haste.



I don't think it would really rape the class at all. A monk in classic/kunark/velious should never complain. I wish Rogues were able to tank better, pull more effectively, have poisons work right(screwed class skill since the dawn of EQ FTL), be able to pop a self heal, and put out the same dps as I do now. Sadly, thats how EQ has always been.

here here. the monk conspiracy of silence must be broken.

[Salty]

Mend still refreshes when you zone. Sorry bros, let it out.

[azeth]

i also suggest all monks be forced to reroll due to bein' cheaters/terrorists.

[Ponden]

You're either with us or against us! - George W. Bush

[azeth]

http://i53.tinypic.com/6p5n9i.png

entire fear raid

Sochin

http://i53.tinypic.com/kqcyb.png

Azeth

http://i55.tinypic.com/ogvvao.png

[iamjack]

I know monks have always been high on the dps charts, but there is no way that Azeth should be getting out dps'd with a Freeti War Spear and dragon haste.



I don't think it would really rape the class at all. A monk in classic/kunark/velious should never complain. I wish Rogues were able to tank better, pull more effectively, have poisons work right(screwed class skill since the dawn of EQ FTL), be able to pop a self heal, and put out the same dps as I do now. Sadly, thats how EQ has always been.

1. the monk that azeth quoting is using cof and azeth is using rbb i think

2. monk overall dps is higher than rog, but rog esp the one with Freeti War Spear got a god damn epic brust dps. azeth can jump from dps chart rank 5 jump to rank 1 from 30 dps jump to 48 dps in matter of second... but ya, sochin will catch up over time given that freeti spear is 15/40 and monk fist is 14/28 and better haste.

flykick contributed 30% of monk total DPS, nerfing into from 100% to 61% mean a 10-15% dps drop in total dps.
but ya if monk fly kick got nerfed...then we better come up with something to boost monk normal attack dmg otherwise ranger and warrior is going to out dps monk, let alone monks have always been high on the dps charts.....

and also ...using the same weapon(Pos Fist), there is a damage different between with haste buff and without Haste buff, monk's fist damage per hit actually decrease as the attack speed increase <-- is this classic as well?

it is like a shotgun vs a submachine gun....you hit alot faster but you hit alot lighter. i have never played classic before, after getting enc/shammy haste buff, the number of attack increased by alot, overall damage increased but the average dmg per hit decrease as the attack speed increase. i keep getting single digit dmg like You crush a xxxxx for 1 points of damage. after getting haste buff.

ps: Monk's Kick are Laser + GPS guided

[Rais]

I have seen plenty of flying kicks miss. Maybe the parser isn't recording a missed kick under the right " Missed" section.

[Aadill]

I have seen plenty of flying kicks miss. Maybe the parser isn't recording a missed kick under the right " Missed" section.

Are you referring to level 50 monks or lower? Earlier there was reference to a 36 monk I know having flying kicks miss, but none of a higher level have spoken up.

As far as the parser, it does report "misses" that occur from blocks or evades, meaning the algorithm is capable of detecting the flying kicks. If the miss itself is not going in the right category, another category should be included (unless it is showing up as "hits.") I guess the real thing to do would be to parse a lower level monk that HAS missed Flying Kicks and see if the accuracy is still 100%. That would prove the parser wrong.

[azeth]

but ya, sochin will catch up over time given that freeti spear is 15/40 and monk fist is 14/28 and better haste.

this is true, but my combo is actually Burning Rapier 7/20 offhand + Bone Razor 10/22 mainhand, swapping Efreeti in for backstabs only. What we're seeing is like you say a much better weapon ratio 14/28 matched up against the above ratios, with the addition of backstab and a 100% accurate Flying Kick (baby backstab).

[baub]

the real crime here is those kicks getting riposted

attack from the side/behind omfg

[Yulath]

Isn't the haste cap at level 50 74%?

meaning any haste item currently available plus swift like the wind (60%) will give you haste cap -- rendering dragon haste relatively useless in a raid setting, and probably meaning nothing to your parses.

[Rais]

I have a 50 monk, spent 20 mins in solb after I saw this bug, and I assure you I missed my kicks some. Not a lot, but some.Thats why I'm guessing the parser isn't reading misses correctly.

I even turned on full combat spam, and kicks weren't dodged,blocked or ripped. Just flat out missed. So who knows.

[Skope]

haste cap is 75% in classic. Yes, dragon haste items are somewhat useless in the sense that you're always hasted with SLTW in a raid setting.

Nice info btw. Considering monks have been topping the DPS charts for a very long time now it makes you wonder how long it's been coded such that they don't miss flying kicks.

[Timzilla]

certainly not classic!

Monk envy certainly is classic. Monk special skills even at low level seem to never miss, but they might as well miss. Because they routinely hit for 1 point of damage. A measly 16 dps from a good monks stongest attack seems pretty subdued to me.

[Rais]

I take back everything I said. I noticed I was missing a chat filter to double check, and kicks won't miss, only on blocks,parries and rips. So I'm landing kicks unless NPC's roll those 3 misses.

So wtg outing monks! I hate you!

[Aadill]

Oh boy!

[Taluvill]

Any chance this is skill related?

Max F K skill and you don't miss, 50% of your max F K skill and you are missing about 50%?

[MrSquirrelbane]

While I don't specifically remember if FK could straight miss in classic, there is one thing that isn't classic with FK. The minimum damage on FK is too high and should be 1. This goes up to 40 damage @ level 51 and scales a bit more as you level to 60.

I think before ZOMG KNEE JERK MONKS ARE TOO POWERFUL WTFHSDA changes it would be prudent to fix that error. Simply giving FK a minimum of 1 instead of 40 will change damage distribution and lower overall dps. Giving FK a 60% miss rate will be crippling with the current state of things melee damage wise.

FK Min dmg source: http://www.monkly-business.net/index.php?pageid=abilities

Yes I realize this was written post Velious, but not everything about every class changed from release to PoP, and its all in one place instead of having to scour the wayback machine for links, or have people read through walls of text to verify facts. (FYI I don't mind posting links to walls of text if someone if willing to read them besides me)

[azeth]

Giving FK a 60% miss rate will be crippling with the current state of things melee damage wise.


crippling how? you should be doing 75% of the damage you are currently doing, per classic.

[Timzilla]

crippling how? you should be doing 75% of the damage you are currently doing, per classic.

You should post the classic log parses you're referring to.

[Aadill]

Not classic parses here, but 100% accuracy has to be wrong. There's more evidence that points towards it being a skill that isn't next to impossible to block... here's what I've found thus far:

http://monklybusiness43508.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/291

2114 hits were kicks (miss 1387)

Here's one from about 05. It shows 65% accuracy overall for Flying Kick, which is just about the same for backstab as it currently is on this server.



Here's another one, from 2003. Same overall accuracy. This one was over the course of 7 hours of fighting.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showpost.php?p=52781&postcount=9

Total Kick Damage: 425,635 (4,358 hits, 2,906 misses; 60%; 98 avg; 62 delay)


Even this post also indicates approximately a 60-70% accuracy rating (2008).

https://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcwr8bv8_6dkss4wf7&pli=1

Here's some information regarding skill caps that may be affecting accuracy (also this might be a good source for all melee damage stuff if anything has been off, as well):

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=61984#753908
(I don't know if flying kick is maxed at 200 on this server or not, but it is according to this post).

MONK.......30..Flying Kick.....200

[Icecometus]

think we got em on the ropes, lets see what happens.

[Timzilla]

Not classic parses here, but 100% accuracy has to be wrong. There's more evidence that points towards it being a skill that isn't next to impossible to block... here's what I've found thus far:

http://monklybusiness43508.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/291



Here's one from about 05. It shows 65% accuracy overall for Flying Kick, which is just about the same for backstab as it currently is on this server.



Here's another one, from 2003. Same overall accuracy. This one was over the course of 7 hours of fighting.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showpost.php?p=52781&postcount=9




Even this post also indicates approximately a 60-70% accuracy rating (2008).

https://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcwr8bv8_6dkss4wf7&pli=1

Here's some information regarding skill caps that may be affecting accuracy (also this might be a good source for all melee damage stuff if anything has been off, as well):

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=61984#753908
(I don't know if flying kick is maxed at 200 on this server or not, but it is according to this post).

Why link posts that don't anything to do with classic EQ? Might as well be links to potatoe blight discussions.

[MrSquirrelbane]

Not classic parses here, but 100% accuracy has to be wrong. There's more evidence that points towards it being a skill that isn't next to impossible to block... here's what I've found thus far:

http://monklybusiness43508.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/291



Here's one from about 05. It shows 65% accuracy overall for Flying Kick, which is just about the same for backstab as it currently is on this server.



Here's another one, from 2003. Same overall accuracy. This one was over the course of 7 hours of fighting.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showpost.php?p=52781&postcount=9




Even this post also indicates approximately a 60-70% accuracy rating (2008).

https://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcwr8bv8_6dkss4wf7&pli=1

Here's some information regarding skill caps that may be affecting accuracy (also this might be a good source for all melee damage stuff if anything has been off, as well):

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=61984#753908
(I don't know if flying kick is maxed at 200 on this server or not, but it is according to this post).

That's some good infoz! As I said I don't remember FK having the ability to miss or not. Looks to me like it did, and as such should be changed.

Melee damage, in general, still needs to be looked at though. Damage distribution is not quite classic (Kunark Beta: Mechanics Forum - Melee Damage Thread (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=187515&postcount=149)) The 1st graph in that post is from kunark era. Second graph is a smaller data sample, but still somewhat telling. I think if melee damage were fixed to be more classic then everyone's damage would go down a little. I'm still working on a sample size near what that guy did in kunark. Its not so easy since there seems to be a completely different damage table for both fear and sky (Another post, same thread (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=190744&postcount=163)) on live p99 right now. Doesn't help that work has been crazy busy! I need more data and on similar mobs so the testing is done in a vacuum. I pretty much just need more hate runs. Seems to be the best place to do these sorta parses.

Timzilla: Don't go hating on Aadill's research for not being perfectly classic. The vast majority of EQ's combat system stayed the same for a very long time. I'd wager that, in regards to FK miss rates, his links were just as valid in 1999-2001 as they were in 2003-2005.

[Timzilla]

The game changed quite a bit when level cap was 70 and AAs figured into combat. A lot of monks had quit by then, the class had been gutted so much by SOE caving into these class envy mobs.

[Aadill]

Let me ask this simple question, then:

Barring ripostes, dodges, blocks, or parries, do you ever miss a flying kick at level 50?

According to the parsers, no. If it is a bug in the parser, then that is something that we can't do anything about. The problem is, no one is straight up saying, "this isn't the case!" so it leads one to believe that the parsers are working correctly and that flying kick is a 100% accurate melee attack. I cannot imagine any skill being 100%, as that goes against VI's original mantra of "everything has a level of uncertainty." With that said, I found various eras of Everquest all pointing to the same thing - the accuracy of flying kick was around 60-70%, much like backstab.

There's reference in some of my posts to the minimum damage being changed to 1 from it's current state of 40, as has been mentioned in this thread. That was a change that happened around Kunark when the later damage tables for monks came out that brought them above everyone else to make up the rest of their DPS that would otherwise be lacking (flying kick does roughly half as much as an average backstab) later on in the game. Yes, various expansions did change combat. There are items now that add directly to damage and even accuracy of certain skills, creating a whole new level of problems with trying to parse it but the data have that I found has numbers have maintained about the same value of accuracy of the ability.

Yes, DPS might be reduced some, but monks get different damage tables at level 51 and again every level after that. This server will not get to a point where monks won't still be near the top of DPS lists, but it's so far removed from other classes at times that it doesn't make sense.

[maegi]

Parses don't lie and Rais verified it's 100% and he's 50. No skill in this game should be 100% accuracy. That's not a nerf if it's changed to be like every other skill in this game, classic or not, no skill in classic or after classic is 100% and never should be. Nerfing is taking away something that wasn't broken. This my friends is totally broken.

[Aadill]

I'm not a level 50 monk, nor do I have access to one.

Azeth is also not a level 50 monk, nor does he have access to one (I think).

Beyond that, technically it has not been verified by a single level 50 monk. No one in here has said, "yeah it's wrong." Azeth and I are basing our info off of parsers. After looking back through EQ logs, it does indeed show that, for example, the only flying kick "MISS" as picked up by "XXX tries to kick YYY" was where the mob riposted, dodged, parried, blocked, or had a rune. This means that the parser does indeed work correctly and the info being reported is therefore valid. This also means that all other parses in my posts, using GAMParse, would also be valid. With that said, it would seem reasonable that the accuracy of flying kick should be around 60-70%, not 100% as it is now, all according to parsers and not first hand experience.

Whether or not that is enough information has nothing to do with my level, that's not how research works :)

[maegi]

I'm not a level 50 monk, nor do I have access to one.

Azeth is also not a level 50 monk, nor does he have access to one (I think).

Beyond that, technically it has not been verified by a single level 50 monk. No one in here has said, "yeah it's wrong." Azeth and I are basing our info off of parsers. After looking back through EQ logs, it does indeed show that, for example, the only flying kick "MISS" as picked up by "XXX tries to kick YYY" was where the mob riposted, dodged, parried, blocked, or had a rune. This means that the parser does indeed work correctly and the info being reported is therefore valid. This also means that all other parses in my posts, using GAMParse, would also be valid. With that said, it would seem reasonable that the accuracy of flying kick should be around 60-70%, not 100% as it is now, all according to parsers and not first hand experience.

Whether or not that is enough information has nothing to do with my level, that's not how research works :)

Yep got names confused as I have read this whole fucking thread, my bad. But a level 50 monk DID verify this in THIS thread for fucks sake....

I have a 50 monk, spent 20 mins in solb after I saw this bug, and I assure you I missed my kicks some. Not a lot, but some.Thats why I'm guessing the parser isn't reading misses correctly.

I even turned on full combat spam, and kicks weren't dodged,blocked or ripped. Just flat out missed. So who knows.
which he later recanted to agree with you guys parsing the logs as NOT missing unless blocked riposted or parried..

I take back everything I said. I noticed I was missing a chat filter to double check, and kicks won't miss, only on blocks,parries and rips. So I'm landing kicks unless NPC's roll those 3 misses.

So wtg outing monks! I hate you!

[Aadill]

My mistake! I don't remember well!

So it was verified. Oops xD

[Timzilla]

Parses don't lie and Rais verified it's 100% and he's 50. No skill in this game should be 100% accuracy. That's not a nerf if it's changed to be like every other skill in this game, classic or not, no skill in classic or after classic is 100% and never should be. Nerfing is taking away something that wasn't broken. This my friends is totally broken.

Ya'll seem to be ignoring a key element. That is that the 100 percent accurate special attacks hits for minimum damage quite often. That's 1 pt at lower levels and apparently 40 pts at high level. It's always been enough for me that me and my group killed the mob, so I don't have any of my own parses. I least of all never cared what anyone else was dpsing at. So I don't know how often I hit for 1 pt; I'd guess about 40 percent. I have no idea how often a backstab or other class special attack hits for 1 pt? Never maybe?

[Aadill]

Yes, min damage should be 1. I remember seeing reference to that in searching for parse data. If I remember correctly, min damage was changed to 40 in Kunark.

[MrSquirrelbane]

Min dmg is definately 40. Which is what it should be @ lvl 51. Before 51 FK min dmg should be 1. (Source: http://www.monkly-business.net/index.php?pageid=abilities)


Here's what I was talking about w/ damage tables being different in some zones btw. This graph is a combined of a 25 mb log file. Every fight that did not take place in Fear or Sky. In these fights my str ranged from 205-230 or so.
http://i53.tinypic.com/v8pj6w.png

Same log file, str ranged from 205-255, Plane of Fear and Plane of Sky mobs only.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2isfj8w.png

Now besides the obvious hitting for min dmg a lot more, which should happen on higher level higher ac mobs, my FK MAX dmg is lower. The fun part is I had more str in Sky since I had a bard with me for about 3/4 the fights in that log. That's what leads me to believe damage tables in Sky and Fear are different than everywhere else.

Here's confirmation from the actual logs of an actual level 50 monk who was actually fighting things, and likely actually wearing nipple straps because they're awesome.
http://i54.tinypic.com/125p2sp.jpg

I also imported that log file into excel and filtered out everything but misses. I was unable to find a single instance of "You try to kick soandso, but miss!" in that 25mb log file.

[Icecometus]

Thank you Splinko for your cooperation with this investigation. Such honor is rare.

[azeth]

bump, any dev thoughts/pending actions?

[Rais]

They are prolly looking at Enchanter rune/zerker str line, healing the enchanters. I think thats a little more op than monk flying kick atm!

[Timzilla]

There's also no evidence that FK missed in classic.

[azeth]

bump

[azeth]

^

[Barfight]

FK minimum damage should absolutely be 1. I can't speak for the other counts; I swear I was missing FKs sometime but never noticed the ratio.

Also, max backstab damage is WAY too high, so be careful what you wish for =p

[azeth]

Well the only guarantee about classic/kunark backstab damage is that at lvl 60 with 255 str a rogue can backstab for 550 damage with a 15 damage weapon.

[Rais]

There is nothing proven that this isn't classic. Anything shown is 3+years after the game was live. Although the minimum kick damage was raised to 40 at level 51, from everything I have seen on Monkly Business.

[Icecometus]

FK minimum damage should absolutely be 1. I can't speak for the other counts; I swear I was missing FKs sometime but never noticed the ratio.

Also, max backstab damage is WAY too high, so be careful what you wish for =p

Yes, and evade is not classic either. Lets nerf Rogues quick.

[Harrison]

Let's not forget about dot stacking.

[azeth]

If you really break down the statistical math regarding monks landing 100% of flying kicks @ 40 damage minimum, versus a hypothetically changed accuracy rate of 60-65% and minimum of 1 damage on flying kick, you're looking at a critically weaker class. Which, unfortunately is classic.

When I get home I'll compile around 5000 fights from all raid zones and show how heavily/incorrectly reliant on Flying Kick (aka burst dps, fka Rogue bread n butter) Monks currently are. Overall their melee with fists is doing more DPS, however more as in 60% of the total instead of correctly around 70-80% of the total.

For example a Monk in DA over an entire Fear clear will likely do around 100,000 total damage. Of that 100,000 damage 30-40k of it will come from Flying Kick landing every 5 seconds for between 40-150 damage.

[Barfight]

I was a rogue on live from Classic to Velious. All I recall during classic (until epics) was rogues complaining nonstop about how monk damage was their equivalent or better to theirs. This seems to be a direct parallel to that situation.

Azeth, where do you have these percentage figures regarding how much damage is 'supposed' to come from fists?

If you want to put things back in line with live, accuracy should be kept the same and minimum damage should be changed to 1. But melee damage as a whole should be looked at it.

[Aadill]

Accuracy on live indicates approximately 60-70% without +accuracy item increase.

Furthermore, the original description of the thunderkick discipline went something like this:

http://www.eqvintage.com/links/melee-disciplines-2/

THUNDER KICK (Level 52): When this discipline is activated, the next successful flying kick will do additional damage. The base reuse time for this discipline is 9 minutes, and will decrease as the monk gains additional levels.

This indicates that the next time a flying kick connects, it would increase the damage of the kick. If the kick doesn't connect, it wouldn't (or it would use the disc and you wouldn't get the damage bonus till the next reuse timer). This implies accuracy is not supposed to be 100%. Again, considering Verant's original mantra of "nothing is certain," why would they leave a disc up to uncertainty if the melee attack used was certain?

[Icecometus]

Let's not forget about dot stacking.

Client issue. This will(has) make(made) many encounters a lot easier.

I think the issue here is that due to client limitations Monks have gotten a boost. That is fine, really. Just don't pretend that it is how it should be, no ability should land 100% of the time in classic. Kunark is around the corner and I believe that is where the change was made to flying kick to give it a min damage, could be the same with BS (Barf?), so there is little point in changing it now. Yes I am jealous of monks but I could have chosen to play one instead of suffer the riggers of being a rogue in classic.

[Hasbinbad]

monks consistently topping out DPS
lol

[Timzilla]

Accuracy on live indicates approximately 60-70% without +accuracy item increase.

Furthermore, the original description of the thunderkick discipline went something like this:

http://www.eqvintage.com/links/melee-disciplines-2/



This indicates that the next time a flying kick connects, it would increase the damage of the kick. If the kick doesn't connect, it wouldn't (or it would use the disc and you wouldn't get the damage bonus till the next reuse timer). This implies accuracy is not supposed to be 100%. Again, considering Verant's original mantra of "nothing is certain," why would they leave a disc up to uncertainty if the melee attack used was certain?

The way SOE implemented AAs was to sometimes nerf existing skills and then make you buy back their previous power by spending AA points. Could be a case of nerfing accuracy and then selling increased damage and other AAs to let the poor monk buy back his mojo.

[azeth]

I was a rogue on live from Classic to Velious. All I recall during classic (until epics) was rogues complaining nonstop about how monk damage was their equivalent or better to theirs. This seems to be a direct parallel to that situation.

Monk's were absolutely top end DPS in Velious, perhaps Kunark if the rogues in comparison did not have a few specific weapons (i.e Vulark Dagger, Ragebringer, Massive Heartwood Thorn, FSSS). This is almost exclusively due to monk's superior weapon choices and an entire revamp of their melee output in Kunark!

[azeth]

The way SOE implemented AAs was to sometimes nerf existing skills and then make you buy back their previous power by spending AA points. Could be a case of nerfing accuracy and then selling increased damage and other AAs to let the poor monk buy back his mojo.

Cmon Tim, this argument basically identifies that the unknown ought first be considered counter intuitively. Completely inaccurate.

[Aadill]

I was talking about discipliness, not AAs... so that point is moot to begin with. Discs came in Kunark and were further built up in Velious. AAs came in Luclin when those other skills already existed. The melee revamp did indeed cause AA to be more of a "buyback" than anything, so yes... poor monks.

That's not classic, let alone in the scope of this server, though.

[guineapig]

lol

Did I miss a joke somewhere?

[Rais]

Adill wrote:
Accuracy on live indicates approximately 60-70% without +accuracy item increase.

Furthermore, the original description of the thunderkick discipline went something like this:

http://www.eqvintage.com/links/melee-disciplines-2/

Quote:
THUNDER KICK (Level 52): When this discipline is activated, the next successful flying kick will do additional damage. The base reuse time for this discipline is 9 minutes, and will decrease as the monk gains additional levels.
This indicates that the next time a flying kick connects, it would increase the damage of the kick. If the kick doesn't connect, it wouldn't (or it would use the disc and you wouldn't get the damage bonus till the next reuse timer). This implies accuracy is not supposed to be 100%. Again, considering Verant's original mantra of "nothing is certain," why would they leave a disc up to uncertainty if the melee attack used was certain?]

Because flying kick does indeed miss. Not a flat out miss, but 3 other types of misses.

Flying kick has a 25% chance to hit,50% to hit if the monk is meleeing behind the NPC. ( I'm making the %'s in a way to make it easier to understand. Parry, Ripotose , and dodge. Dodge only takes effect if you are in in the face of the NPC)

Once again, making parses now in fear or whatever on P99 does not equate to 1999-Kunark.

Monks STILL MISS flying kick. Stop blurring the lines saying it ALWAYS land.

[Aadill]

You do realize that an attack hit/miss check is made before dodge/riposte/parry/block, right?

Look at the actual combat text, listen to the game sounds. Think about melee in RPGs. Hell, even look up the definition of the words being used. You HIT the mob, but it doesn't connect due to extra abilities. Those chances to avoid taking damage only occur when the kick would otherwise land and do damage. Ripostes, Blocks, Parries, and Dodges are NOT misses in respect to the player. The point of this post is to point out the fact that a kick will always land EXCEPT in the event that a mob passes an evade check, which has only a very slim chance of happening. MISSING implies that you flat out picked your foot up, lunged at a mob, and knocked over a lamp instead of kicking a ravenous magical dog-man in the face.

Flying kick would make sense if monks had a ~60-70% chance of landing and checks against evasion were made AFTER that, because every other ability, parsed over multiple expansions, and multiple descriptions of disciplines, abilities, etc. all indicate a level of uncertainty. Flying kick only missing 1% of the time on the parses as shown in this log is statistically inconsistent when looking at any other skill.

Here's a thought: what happens with tiger strike/round kick/dragon punch etc. at level 50? Anyone level those skills to max? Would be interesting to see if they follow the same accuracy % as other skills or if they go along with flying kick.

As far as "posting proof of how it was in classic," what about everyone saying it shouldn't change? Why SHOULD it be correct in it's current state?

[Loke]

As far as "posting proof of how it was in classic," what about everyone saying it shouldn't change? Why SHOULD it be correct in it's current state?

I agree that monk kick accuracy probably shouldn't be 100%. That being said, the reason people keep asking for proof is because when changes are made without proof a number of difficulties can arise. When you work under the assumption that things in their current state are correct until proven otherwise, you avoid changing things that were correct in the first place. It is basic scientific method - you need to start out with an assumption and then prove or disprove it. Based on previous precedence, the assumption is that the current state of this server is correct.

[Uthgaard]

If someone would like to remake the thread with only the facts summarized, it might get read. No one is sifting through an 8 page pissing match to get to the real data.

[azeth]

I agree that monk kick accuracy probably shouldn't be 100%. That being said, the reason people keep asking for proof is because when changes are made without proof a number of difficulties can arise. When you work under the assumption that things in their current state are correct until proven otherwise, you avoid changing things that were correct in the first place. It is basic scientific method - you need to start out with an assumption and then prove or disprove it. Based on previous precedence, the assumption is that the current state of this server is correct.



negative, like i said in response to Timzillas last post, the assumption currently in counter intuitive. The basis of kick accuracy should have mirrored every other melee attack skill @ 60-70% - until proven otherwise