Yet another rogue thread

[Crawdad]

Never played a Rogue, one of two classes I can say I have 0 experience with. After an afternoon goofing around with a velium rapier and helping a kindly rogue kill Renux, I got the urge to twink one up. There's a wealth of info out there but I had a few questions.

1) Weapons: 13/26 mainhand seems pretty clear until epic, and I believe the ratio is all that matters for offhand.. But what about same ratios with different speeds/stats? Does it even matter using 17/34 (http://wiki.project1999.com/Green_Jade_Axe) versus a 12/24 (http://wiki.project1999.com/Runed_Velium_Battlehammer)? I assume prices for similar ratios depend on stats/fashion/weapon type more than anything else.. but a Lath Drinor (http://wiki.project1999.com/Lath_drinor) goes for 6-8k, whereas a Balanced velium warsword (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=17051) has a (barely) better ratio and goes for 1-2k.. doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

2) Ranged: I assume most rogues are rocking an Idol of the Thorned until they get the bow from the coldain quest, but are bows/thrown ever used? I've collected throwing boulders for fun but damn are they heavy..

3) Groupage: Are (twinked) rogues a hot commodity for groups? I've been playing a twinked-out Ranger, but I'll be damned if anybody cares. I'm fine with having to be proactive, but sometimes its like pulling teeth for pick-up groups. If I'm going to be even more group reliant as a Rogue, I'd hope we get picked up pretty quickly?

Thanks! Any good links would be appreciated.

[Man0warr]

On my rogue I've been rocking Barbed Velium Spear (12/22) and Crystalline Short Sword (12/24) - not the best money can buy but that combo can be had for under 5k and it's pretty effective until you can equip Epic. Sure you could dump a ton of plat on marginally better weapons but I'd rather save my plat for Ragebringer when the quest gets fixed. Some of those weapons you listed are rare (Lath Drinor, no one farms Skyshrine), whereas the Velium stuff drops like candy in a zone farmed heavily for Velious BP Gems (Dragon Necropolis).

I sneak pulled with bow+flight arrows all the time while leveling up in groups in dungeons. It's not as good as a monk doing it, but it's better than most other classes as pullers.

Rogue twinks do get picked up pretty quickly. Through Mistmoore/Guk/Sol B you can hit for 200-300 damage backstabs which on sub-45 level mobs is 1/4th or 1/2 of their HP.

[Crawdad]

Thanks! I'm using a frozen shard and balanced warsword currently.. debating on grabbing a Green jade axe to 1) use two old-world graphic weapons and 2) bump up the Str... though currently its sitting at 194, which I think is above the required pre-buffed number, though I guess <60 it can't hurt.

About Strength: Are there any formulas for how much Str boosts your damage? Never played a melee Dps (only ever played Bard/Pal/SK) or cared about white numbers before.

[capco]

1. Just a thought: in cases of equal ratio, take the weapon with higher delay for your offhand. In this way you will take less damage from damage shields.

2. I was told a long time ago that it's actually better if you keep your range skills low as long as you can to help with sneak pulling at higher levels. It had something to do with making sneak pulling more effective (this advice is easily 3 years old so I have no idea how relevant/factual it is, as I was never a big sneak puller with my rogue anyway).

3. DPS classes can make up half of a common group composition (tank, healer, enchanter/bard, 3 DPS), and I've managed to get in groups with 2 other rogues before, so if you can't get a group it's because of a reason other than your class.

[Swish]

Biggest damage in your main hand (higher backstabs)
Lowest ratio in your offhand (more dps) .... 13/25 better than 9/18 etc

You'll never go without a group, make sure to wink at the nearest LFG wizard - he'll be there for hours ;)

[Swish]

On my rogue I've been rocking Barbed Velium Spear (12/22) and Crystalline Short Sword (12/24) - not the best money can buy but that combo can be had for under 5k and it's pretty effective until you can equip Epic.

You might as well buy a jade mace (9/18) for a cheaper offhand (also very good at low levels). Might be the only time you raise 1h blunt too :)

[NarcolepticLTD]

The only time I've had trouble getting groups on my rogue was sitting in mistmoore at prime, when everyone else is sitting waiting in a queue for a group. The biggest thing you can do is to make sure you're not /role or /anon as people looking for good DPS to fill out their groups will do a /who all rogue and seek you out from across the server. Set /lfg on as well... even though you can't filter a /who with LFG, the tag will still show up in any query you'd regularly show up on.

Most XP groups aren't going to be inspecting your gear before inviting you either, and won't even care unless they see you doing silly backstabs, then they start inspecting gear and wondering what that small dragonbone shard is in your primary (if your a stubby race).

Apparently at some point before rogue epics were restricted to being equipped before 46, people that didn't have their epic (at say, level 20?) were getting denied groups.... which is pretty ridiculous :)

The best thing you can do is make a list of good tanks/heals/CC that you've grouped with at lower levels and friend them as this will help you find groups at later levels.

[Crawdad]

Up to 15 on the rogue. Spent 4 hours camping Ass/Sup and managed to snag a couple TBBs but only saw one assassin (with dirk).. logged in yesterday and got a mask the next spawn, Weow!

Grouping so far has been incredibly easy, but I guess that's the perk of doing those well traveled zoned. Orc highway group with three twinked rogues+pally+token healer was pretty amazing. Heading to Unrest or Guk today.

I guess the biggest issue for me right now is handling aggro better with Warriors/lazy Knights, especially those with big slow 2-handers. Evade doesn't seem to work very often right now, so I guess I need to just wait a little longer before hacking and slashing.

One of the rogues at Orc Highway said he went all Dex for backstab, which seems false based on all info I can find. He was probably wearing ~150k worth of gear though, so I'm conflicted on what to believe. Anyone know where this might come from and if there's any truth to it?

[Akashx]

Dex does not give you more hit rate, backstab success chance, or backstab damage.

[Samoht]

One of the rogues at Orc Highway said he went all Dex for backstab, which seems false based on all info I can find. He was probably wearing ~150k worth of gear though, so I'm conflicted on what to believe. Anyone know where this might come from and if there's any truth to it?

He's wrong. (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Backstab_Damage_Calculations) Backstab is basically determined by strength + level + weapon damage. DEX honestly is a pretty poor stat investment considering all rogue gear has DEX + buffs + diminishing returns at procs starting as low as 144 DEX. Min/max directions would be to go all STA with anything left into STR.

[Zaejii]

Rogue twinks do get picked up pretty quickly. Through Mistmoore/Guk/Sol B you can hit for 200-300 damage backstabs which on sub-45 level mobs is 1/4th or 1/2 of their HP.

Any point in making and leveling a Rogue if you can't afford to twink it?

This is also my first time playing one (Barb Level 7 so far).

[Crawdad]

Any point in making and leveling a Rogue if you can't afford to twink it?

This is also my first time playing one (Barb Level 7 so far).

Its always worth making and playing a class that you enjoy playing. Once you get into the low teens you can start making money-- doing will-o-wisps from 12-18 will net you ~600p, which should be be enough to gear yourself up. Easier and less of a waiting game than other popular camps at those levels.

I'd grab a 9 or 10dmg dagger on the cheap and then save up until you can get either a small dragonbone shard or frozen shard (1k-2k). Either will last until you get your epic.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Research_Aid
Vendor the Lightstones for 1p each, turn in the Greater Lightstones for some great Exp and vendor the concordance for 10p.

You're always going to bring consistent damage to a group.. maybe not crazy silly damage untwinked, but more than most classes.

[Cecily]

Any point in making and leveling a Rogue if you can't afford to twink it?

This is also my first time playing one (Barb Level 7 so far).

Play what you want. Main rogue here and never regretted it. Plus you won't have level beside epic twinks like I did during the first wave of them. That kinda sucked. Less gear disparity for you now and that's a good thing.

[Holywind]

What hte hell is up with pickpocketing the DE Rogue GM? I've died three times and was "unsuccessful" well over 50 times. Jesus.

[Cecily]

That means stop or you're gonna die. He has either the rogue note or words of psyche. No coins. Try a few times and wait for the next respawn or you're gonna agro.

[Crawdad]

Rogue's been pretty fun, though lately just been playing when I can't get a group with the Enchanter. Tearing it up in Mistmoore yesterday with another Rogue and his pickpocket fails and people outside the group start wigging out. Nobody in group seems to care, though the druid says "But it adds up...". I've never batted an eye when I see a pick-pocket fail. Most low-level Exp groups on p99 you have corpses rotting/going unlooted, so who cares if the rogue is stealing all that copper and silver? Anyways...

How exactly does pick pocket work and what's the accepted etiquette here? Most rogues I assume are like me and have an Evade/Pickpocket hotkey. Maybe I'm lazy but do we really need a second Evade-only hotkey made?
Pick pocketing vs Looting? I know we can't steal Magic items, but what about money? Am I stealing all of the gold/silver/copper, and where does it start? Most Exp mobs are going to be dead before pick pocket can recycle...
Coupled with needing (I assume maxed) pick-pocket for the Epic, do we really have to waste time leveling up pick pocket outside of Pick-up-group settings?

High vendor loot spots I can understand.. but leveling up it seems pointless to be upset over. Being mad with a rogue for pick pocketing seems akin to wigging out when the Warrior switches to <weapon skill that needs some work>, or the Wizard <is in your group>.

[NarcolepticLTD]

Just let your group know ahead of time that you have it macro'd as you're skilling it up. If they have a problem with it you can simply change the macro to work disarm or sense traps or whatever.

The only place I can think of where it would be an insta-kick (especially if you didn't say anything about it ahead of time) would be goblins in HHK, as people get pretty greedy about ears... which can be pick pocketed as they're not magic items and aren't wielded :)

[CmCKiller]

Exquisite Velium Spear 12/20 vs Scimitar of the Emerald 20/34 which is better with max haste, 255 str, 255 dex as an OFFHAND wep paired epic main hand.

[RDawg816]

Exquisite Velium Spear 12/20 vs Scimitar of the Emerald 20/34 which is better with max haste, 255 str, 255 dex as an OFFHAND wep paired epic main hand.
With 100% haste, you're looking at 12/10 > 20/17. Add to that, piercing is a higher skill than slashing and the spear is still better....

[Cecily]

Add to that, piercing is a higher skill than slashing and the spear is still better....

Omg stop being wrong on the internet.

http://i.imgur.com/6DRndff.png

[Cecily]

Exquisite Velium Spear 12/20 vs Scimitar of the Emerald 20/34 which is better with max haste, 255 str, 255 dex as an OFFHAND wep paired epic main hand.

For offhands, you divide the damage by the delay and get a ratio. The higher ratio is better. The more str you have, the more damage you do. The more haste you have, the faster you attack. These scale regardless of the weapon. The ratio is all that matters and GTFO w/ dex. That doesn't matter at all.

tl;dr: Spear is better.

[RDawg816]

Omg stop being wrong on the internet.
The spear is still better. I haven't looked at my rogues melee skills in a while and I remembered piercing leveling up higher than the others. Maybe that was later on. It's not a big deal though. Thanks for taking the time to screen shot that, though.

[Xaanka]

The spear is still better. I haven't looked at my rogues melee skills in a while and I remembered piercing leveling up higher than the others. Maybe that was later on. It's not a big deal though. Thanks for taking the time to screen shot that, though.

pierce/blunt/slash are identical for off hand.

advantage to piercing is that it can be used in the main hand slot with backstab, but this only matters for a few items because there isn't much you would ever put in that slot over an epic (vyemm dagger, vulak dagger v3, primal spear, debuff procs)

you're thinking of other classes, where some weapon skills don't get as high as others. not a rogue thing.

[Cecily]

It's not a big deal though. Thanks for taking the time to screen shot that, though.

It's kind of a big deal to me because people have been saying that incorrectly for pretty much ever and that's never been the case on P99 as long as I've been playing. Either P99 is wrong or people are remembering later expansions, because that definitely was the case eventually. Just something I wanted to clear up.

[RDawg816]

Either P99 is wrong or people are remembering later expansions, because that definitely was the case eventually. Just something I wanted to clear up.
I'm not sure. I stopped playing my rogue at 65, around LDoN. :)

[syztem]

vyemm fang/claw of lightning is pretty nice combo, but you lose some attack even with primal it can nearly keep up. If only epic was still range slot useable for seething fury. 41% worn haste for every rogue is a must have.

[Cecily]

Pretty sure the magic number was 1500 atk to bag epic. We can hit that, but it takes some serious buff stacking to make it happen without vengeance gear.

[Xaanka]

41% worn haste for every rogue is a must have.

i wonder if they'll ever fix epic haste

[Trollhide]

Somebody aware me on the epic rogue haste thing.

So if I understand right, Ragebringer by itself provides 40% haste to melee attacks but no reduction to backstab CD.

Ragebringer + a haste item that displays its haste as a numerical "41%" will provide a total of 41% haste to melee attacks, and 41% CD reduction on backstab 41% "haste" to backstab CD?

[RDawg816]

Basically if the item doesn't say haste x% (such as Ragebringer) it only applies to auto attack. If it does display the haste x% then that applies to all attacks (auto attack, backstab, etc.)

[Muggens]

i wonder if they'll ever fix epic haste

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240866&page=4

Need more people to post here , I dunno whats up?