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Detoxx
04-19-2016, 02:12 AM
Aftermath is conceding the next Dain as part of conceding two(2) Dains (We did not contest the one on the repop today) so the next Dain we will not be contesting. We were CoTHed a few seconds before Dain had actually spawned.

We apologize for this and I ask to consider adding Dain to the new foot race rule as CoTHing at 1:59:48 seconds is dumb!!

Best of luck!

raato
04-19-2016, 08:52 AM
I think footrace rule for Dain would be a very good, since that way there will be plenty of time for people to complete their 9th ring quests and get their Declaration of Wars.

Last time when I was there waiting for Dain, there was like 5-8 people waiting to complete theirs, but didnt have time to do that.

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 09:47 AM
Even with a foot race there is a very small window to turn in.

As of lately, most Dain spawns have occurred as a result of a failed war. This means it spawns at a known time and guilds prep accordingly. Typically those guilds are only Awakened and Aftermath and typically one of those guilds was responsible for the failure.

For Sirken to rule that failure of a Ring War concedes any attempt at a resulting Dain would help immensely in the instant-snap pulling of Dain.

I don't think Dain needs the identical rules as ToV (you don't need 60 minutes to try to pull him and no one clears to him due to the banish). But I could see the benefits of a footrace. Just need an agreeable starting line, runspeed and lull rules I think.

Regarding your concession you petitioned for loot removal, yes? The rules say something about quest pieces being turned in or some such also. Dunno if the staff undo quests already turned in or not on these.

raato
04-19-2016, 11:06 AM
Well the window for turn in will definately be more than 1-2s on footrace and should make 9th ring turn in actually possible.

Pint
04-19-2016, 11:31 AM
Dain should definitely be on the new rule set. The biggest issue with dain is the messy pull, the race rules eliminate that issue as every other guild can leave and come back in an hour. It also creates a massive window for people to do turn ins since the winning guild can give everyone a few minutes to handle their business. New rules fit the dain encounter very well.

Not being able to contest a dain that spawns as a ring war you fail is fine with aftermath if sirken wants to make that a rule.

Kileras
04-19-2016, 11:53 AM
Even with a foot race there is a very small window to turn in.

As of lately, most Dain spawns have occurred as a result of a failed war. This means it spawns at a known time and guilds prep accordingly. Typically those guilds are only Awakened and Aftermath and typically one of those guilds was responsible for the failure.

For Sirken to rule that failure of a Ring War concedes any attempt at a resulting Dain would help immensely in the instant-snap pulling of Dain.

I don't think Dain needs the identical rules as ToV (you don't need 60 minutes to try to pull him and no one clears to him due to the banish). But I could see the benefits of a footrace. Just need an agreeable starting line, runspeed and lull rules I think.

Regarding your concession you petitioned for loot removal, yes? The rules say something about quest pieces being turned in or some such also. Dunno if the staff undo quests already turned in or not on these.

where are lull rules stated and are they in effect for the other races?

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 11:58 AM
They are not but Dain specifically you can make it from entrance to underneath him in 4-5 seconds and lull him in 2. That's a very small window for turning in if that is the primary reason for why we are asking for rule changes regarding him.

Removing lull from him particularly removes RNG and provides a bit larger window for turning in 9th rings.

PS - How can one of your two contested Dains be one that was already dead at the time you made it clear to everyone that you were conceding the mob?

Pint
04-19-2016, 01:58 PM
They asked for a concession 3 dains later for a dain they weren't present for, we just figured we would be nice and go through the motions.

Race rules with fte securing 1hr window completely negates the need to rush your dain turn ins and makes this encounter easy on everyone. Indisputably the best route to take.

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 02:13 PM
I don't typically deal with petitionquest, so I'm not privy to the exact circumstances that precipitated this post...

But I think any reasonable person would say you cannot count last night's repop Dain as one of your two required conceded mobs when the post notifying everyone of your concession came after Dain was already dead and looted by BDA.

Pint
04-19-2016, 02:19 PM
Bda didn't petition, they just asked for the concession so we said fuck it. You prob need to consult with your own ppl to determine whether or not y'all also want to concede for cothing too early. Its just dain so it didn't seem like it was worth the discussion.

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 03:49 PM
Okay... That doesn't really answer my question.

If you're admitting wrong doing, and conceding two mobs, because two is what the rules require (plus loot deletion assuming you haven't turned in quest pieces)... I don't understand how you can claim you've already served one of your two concessions out when the mob was already dead by the time this post was made informing everyone of your concession...

Does anyone else follow this logic? Because I'm lost.

Q5: What about in cases where the mob dies before anyone is sure whom is at fault?
A: In some situations, it’s possible that the mob will be killed before anyone can be certain who are to blame, and so no guild will concede/forfeit. In these situations, the crime has already been committed and the offending guild should concede all the loot to the guild that was wronged, but they will also be forced to not contest for the next two spawns of that mob that is available to them. They can do this by posting in the raid discussion forum, and stating that they will not be competing for the next two spawns of that mob available to them, as well as requesting to have the loots removed. As long as the items have not been turned in, this will be accepted by the staff and not warrant a raid suspension. (Note* if the offending guilds actions effect another guild/party, but do not result in the offending guild getting the kill, they will still be expected to follow the above, except for the loot, as they wouldn’t have it) (Note* please remember items must be looted for us to have proof they existed, if an item is nodrop, a staff member can assist in the transfer to the wronged guild)

You posted after the Dain from repop was dead. So you are conceding the next two Dains available to you.

Your post is supposed to include a request to remove the loot, and will be accepted assuming the quest items have not been turned in. Dunno what this exactly means if the Dain Head was already turned in though?

The staff will assist in No Drop items being transferred to whatever guild was wronged in this situation. (The rule is somewhat unclear, I believe it's suggesting that "loot removed" means transferred to the guild wronged... However there isn't really any indication on what's done when 3+ guilds are present).

----

I understand these are somewhat newly written rules but they need to be followed and clarified where necessary by Sirken so everyone understands how to play fairly when you need to concede a target after the fact.

Detoxx
04-19-2016, 04:23 PM
BDA had no force at the Dain in question. You guys did the same as us except failed to aquire FTE (had you of gotten FTE, it would have technically been a tracker FTE). Id worry about yourself and I will deal with my petitions. I am currently talking with BDA and will amend this post if needed.

Thanks for your concern Dald!

Breaken
04-19-2016, 05:01 PM
We have no reason to concede Dain. We had one tracker who cothed another person. No matter what you call that person, he is now a second tracker. One of your three trackers got fte. I count two rules broken in that sentence.

Let's say our second tracker did get fte, we would have had the option to concede that attempt, or kill it, and be petitioned. Neither of those happened, so again, why would we have to concede a future spawn for breaking no rule. So when you guys don't get fte on a mob, will you be conceding future spawns as well?

Pint
04-19-2016, 05:18 PM
Dald your posts seem to betray that you are actually pretty invested in this whole petition quest thing. Bda asked us to concede some dains, we obliged. When we raised the question with proof that you guys also cothed too early we were basically told that y'all were being petty and not to worry about it. Breaking the rules but failing to succeed in what you were doing doesn't negate your breaking the rules, seems like a stretch to imply otherwise. I don't even know if bda is asking y'all for a concession but either way this thread doesn't even seem to concern your guild at all at this point other than what outwardly looks like you two just trying to pick a fight for whatever reason. New raid scene is going to take some getting used to for you guys since you arnt going to be able to toss around frivolous petition threats every cycle to try and bully yourselves into extra mobs, I guess we just need a little time for the adjustment period to work itself out.

Pint
04-19-2016, 05:34 PM
It says right in dald's quote that if your actions didn't result in a kill then you concede and ignore the loot removal portion. So presumably since we broke the same rule they would be asking you for the same concession. Also your asking about us petitioning for removal is just you being vindictive since this entire post implies that sirken will read it and then follow up by removing the loot, why would we assume it worked in any other way? I didn't see where it told you to submit a separate petition for that part of the concession to take effect. Why are y'all in this thread at all rule lawyering a concession that is between aftermath and bda in the first place?

Pint
04-19-2016, 05:41 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=97LRggGymcg

^ fraps if your "tracker" doing typical "tracker" things as dain pops and clearly not very obviously being an fte'er. Just so everyone can partake in this fun equally.

Detoxx
04-19-2016, 05:42 PM
Aftermath will be conceding the next 2 Dains. This sets a precedent, though, that you can just follow guilds around, fraps and get concessions without even competing on the mob. For a guild that claims to hate lawyer questing, you just added a new tier.

Good luck on your Dains.

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 06:04 PM
All I'm asking is you follow the rules lol.

Trying to claim 1 of your 2 concessions on a mob whose corpse is already poofed at time of posting doesn't seem like it's following the rules.

Regarding the loot removal perhaps that's just assumed as a part of these things. But the rules state you are responsible for requesting the loot removal.

But carry on spinning away. Everyone sees through how dumb of a statement it was to try to pass off the respawn Dain as one of your two concessions. I hope you aren't immersed so much that you can't see this.

Pint
04-19-2016, 06:08 PM
All I'm asking is you follow the rules lol.

Trying to claim 1 of your 2 concessions on a mob whose corpse is already poofed at time of posting doesn't seem like it's following the rules.

But carry on spinning away. Everyone sees through how dumb of a statement it was to try to pass off the respawn Dain as one of your two concessions. I hope you aren't immersed so much that you can't see this.

You should debate it in your own concession thread where you can also follow the rules

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 06:16 PM
When we need to make one, I surely will.

phiren
04-20-2016, 11:45 AM
Interesting case from the fraps video.

If I took a gun and shot at someone with the intent to kill, but I missed, I wouldn't be brought up on murder or homicide charges. Attempted murder perhaps? But do we have a rule here on P99 for attempted murder?

"CoThing early with the intent to FTE carries a minimum sentence of 1 Dain, and a maximum of no greater than 2 dains"

I see both sides of the issue.

~Phiren

Detoxx
04-20-2016, 12:35 PM
Still need a bda rep to acknowledge this concession please

Anichek
04-20-2016, 01:09 PM
Acknowledged. Sorry for missing your Skype messages.

Breaken
04-20-2016, 02:31 PM
Interesting case from the fraps video.

If I took a gun and shot at someone with the intent to kill, but I missed, I wouldn't be brought up on murder or homicide charges. Attempted murder perhaps? But do we have a rule here on P99 for attempted murder?

"CoThing early with the intent to FTE carries a minimum sentence of 1 Dain, and a maximum of no greater than 2 dains"

I see both sides of the issue.

~Phiren

Had Hyjal got FTE, we would have dropped it and conceded.

To get some clarification, what Dain are you conceding for? It sounds like you are saying this is because you trained BDA, which is why you asked for their acknowledgement. Detoxx told me this was for the coth incident.

arsenalpow
04-20-2016, 03:09 PM
Had Hyjal got FTE, we would have dropped it and conceded.

To get some clarification, what Dain are you conceding for? It sounds like you are saying this is because you trained BDA, which is why you asked for their acknowledgement. Detoxx told me this was for the coth incident.

It's for the coth incident.

Breaken
04-20-2016, 04:13 PM
Well then, thank you for the attempt at righting this issue, however Awakened does not accept this single Dain concession. We agree that this single concession should count as one of two, but posting concession for the other after the fact is not acceptable.

In addition, the rule states that you concede all of the loot to the guild which was wronged. That would be Awakened.

arsenalpow
04-20-2016, 04:16 PM
Aftermath will be conceding the next 2 Dains. This sets a precedent, though, that you can just follow guilds around, fraps and get concessions without even competing on the mob. For a guild that claims to hate lawyer questing, you just added a new tier.

Good luck on your Dains.

Next two Breaken.

Detoxx
04-20-2016, 04:24 PM
Well then, thank you for the attempt at righting this issue, however Awakened does not accept this single Dain concession. We agree that this single concession should count as one of two, but posting concession for the other after the fact is not acceptable.

In addition, the rule states that you concede all of the loot to the guild which was wronged. That would be Awakened.

Conceded the next two. You guys deal with it as you will. Best of luck!

Breaken
04-20-2016, 04:30 PM
I apologize, I forgot about that update. Awakened accepts these two concessions, but will await item transfer. Could we get a list of items that we can expect? I assume we will need to know who to transfer them to.

(Note* please remember items must be looted for us to have proof they existed, if an item is nodrop, a staff member can assist in the transfer to the wronged guild)

Detoxx
04-20-2016, 04:46 PM
I apologize, I forgot about that update. Awakened accepts these two concessions, but will await item transfer. Could we get a list of items that we can expect? I assume we will need to know who to transfer them to.

BDA has not asked me for loot concession. Being the fact that you guys were just as guilty and BDA wanted to petition you as well but you gave them the same excuse you gave us, If bda wants loot conceded, I will to them. The whole "well we WOULD have conceded" does not hold any water for you unfortunately.

Breaken
04-20-2016, 04:56 PM
If we broke a rule, we would have. I don't see how that doesn't hold water. We broke no rule. We cothed someone. That made two people at his spawn point. I am not here to debate this with you, as we have done that extensively privately. Awakened's petition will remain.

Detoxx
04-20-2016, 05:08 PM
Of course it will! Can only concede loot to one guild, friend. You go ahead and petition a mob Ive already conceded because you expect every concession to go your way. At least the server can have a shining example of what its like on a weekly basis with you. Good day, Breaken!

Breaken
04-20-2016, 05:25 PM
So, you break a rule, argue with me for 2 days about it, tell me to petition, then BDA mentions it, and bam, you concede to them? Yes, you are right, this is exactly what it is like on a weekly basis.

Detoxx
04-20-2016, 05:32 PM
BDA didn't try to do the same thing and cry cause they lost the fte. You did.

Culkasi
04-21-2016, 05:52 AM
How anyone can read this stuff and still believe "lack of will to compete" or "lack of skills" is the reason no one is "stepping up" to "compete" with AA is baffling

Breaken
04-21-2016, 08:04 AM
Culkasi, this only happens when a guild breaks a rule and kills a mob anyway. Competing is great. Please, come join the footraces. But if you break a rule like tracker fte, expect to concede that mob. In this case, Aftermath did not, after knowing they got tracker fte. That is why this post exists.

phiren
04-21-2016, 10:43 AM
So where are we with changing Dain to a footrace? What needs to happen? Sirken has to decree it? We all can just agree to it?

It sounds like a no-brainer. Who would be against this and why?

~Phiren

bktroost
04-21-2016, 11:15 AM
So where are we with changing Dain to a footrace? What needs to happen? Sirken has to decree it? We all can just agree to it?

It sounds like a no-brainer. Who would be against this and why?

~Phiren

New post.

Detoxx
04-21-2016, 11:20 AM
Culkasi, this only happens when a guild breaks a rule and kills a mob anyway. Competing is great. Please, come join the footraces. But if you break a rule like tracker fte, expect to concede that mob. In this case, Aftermath did not, after knowing they got tracker fte. That is why this post exists.

Guild who broke said rule conceded two mobs. Guild who tried to break rule but failed is crying that it isn't enough.

Breaken
04-21-2016, 11:47 AM
Awakened didn't write the rules. It seems your battle is with Sirken.