Petition to move FTE starting point to the zone in stairs in ToV

[Detoxx]

Please sign here if you wish this to be the case!

[Daldaen]

Reasoning behind this? The door at entrance is a very clear line and easy to see who is past.

[Detoxx]

Stairs are just as clear, more wiggle room and people will not be in the way for zone in pulls. As well as the annoyance of people spam opening and closing the door

[Pint]

Reasoning behind this? The door at entrance is a very clear line and easy to see who is past.

you being intentionally daft?

[bktroost]

Question, I heard something about pulling kos mobs to that area or at least within aggro range as they tried to pull out of.

[Detoxx]

We do but the train is never dropped there or even comes there

[Daldaen]

Well here's the thing... the reason you want to move the spot is so that the mobs you pull to entrance don't AE the FTEers, a noble endeavor. However it was explicitly brought up by at least 2 parties in the raid summit that AEing mobs shouldn't be brought to the exact spot players zone into the zone.

So the more appropriate solution to this issue (not AEing FTEers hanging out at zone in), is instead relocating your kill spot to the entry stairs cubbies and continue using the entry room as the starting line so that it is clear, and safe from AEs at all times.

What you're asking, to me, seems like you're asking everyone to change spots to serve your kill spot. So instead of asking whats best for Aftermath (moving everyone so that your kill spot doesn't interrupt FTEers hanging out) instead maybe you should ask what is better for the server (moving your kill spot so that the entrance is never interrupted by zone pulls).

Before the rules were posted, I agree this would be a very laborious process of clearing the trash every respawn to make sure the spot was safe when you snap pulled a mob. But now that you have 60 minutes to pull and kill your target it is completely reasonable to, after your FTE goes out, Batphone and while you're setting up your pull and performing your pull have your raid kill one trash mob in one corner. BDA has done this kill spot several times with no issue and never AEing those hanging out or having just zoned in.

[Detoxx]

Ok Daldaen, well move to Ltk and have desync fest. Thanks for yet again showing how easy it is to work with you guys. Also, youre ogre wall blocking of the doorway as a cheap tactic was another reason for this request.





What you're asking, to me, seems like you're asking everyone to change spots to serve your kill spot. So instead of asking whats best for Aftermath (moving everyone so that your kill spot doesn't interrupt FTEers hanging out) instead maybe you should ask what is better for the server (moving your kill spot so that the entrance is never interrupted by zone pulls).

Funny, when you wanted to kill LtK, I didnt see you putting it in the cubby outside.

Good talk.

[Pint]

Should we assume that awakened using the zone in to fight mobs this cycle was just a one off then and you guys will not be killing mobs at the zone in again? I guess we will expect you guys to go clear to ltk on the next quake to clear out your pull spot while we help ourselves to dozekar and eashen.

[bktroost]

Is there something deeper going on here? Like, help me understand. Does daldaen's suggestion about fighting it on the BDA cubby have hidden issues other than killing the one mob?

[Detoxx]

That place is extremely risky to get adds. The choices are:

1) Risk wiping due to adds
2) Simply move the starting point to the stairs
3) Stand there and get AoEd then petitionquest

Sirken said we could agree to a spot together. I'm with you, Nemce. I don't see the issue either.

[Breaken]

I'm with you, Nemce. I don't see the issue either.

I believe Nemce was saying you should not be fighting the mob at the zone in. So, you are in disagreement with him, actually.

[Detoxx]

Appreciate the valuable input Breaken.

Can we get Anon/Div, BDA and CSG to weigh in here. Curious if you think moving the starting line to the bottom of the stairs is a huge problem.

This is simpy me trying to work this out in the best interest for everyone. If you all think its a problem, no big deal. We'll keep it as is.

[arsenalpow]

Appreciate the valuable input Breaken.

Can we get Anon/Div, BDA and CSG to weigh in here. Curious if you think moving the starting line to the bottom of the stairs is a huge problem.

This is simpy me trying to work this out in the best interest for everyone. If you all think its a problem, no big deal. We'll keep it as is.

I've already stated that I think pulling to the entrance room is kinda fucked up.

[Daldaen]

Ok Daldaen, well move to Ltk and have desync fest. Thanks for yet again showing how easy it is to work with you guys. Also, youre ogre wall blocking of the doorway as a cheap tactic was another reason for this request.





Funny, when you wanted to kill LtK, I didnt see you putting it in the cubby outside.

Good talk.

You again, are confusing not getting everything you want, with me/us being difficult to work with. I think most of the other guilds have found I am pretty reasonable and can understand most of my views.

You want to come to a server agreement? Lets do it, and agree to never pull to zone in, instead using zone in cubbies, Awakened will 100% be behind this resolution. Once this is agreed upon by all parties we won't be pulling any targets to the entry room, instead using the entry stair cubbies.

That place is extremely risky to get adds. The choices are:

1) Risk wiping due to adds
2) Simply move the starting point to the stairs
3) Stand there and get AoEd then petitionquest

Sirken said we could agree to a spot together. I'm with you, Nemce. I don't see the issue either.

What adds are you expecting there? Literally none have line of sight other than the 1 cubby mob you would kill.

Simply moving to the stairs still means you're pulling an AoEing mob to the entrance and it is going to go over all the FTEers.

PS - The "Fine we will desynch you at LTK" is akin to a small child threatening to hold his breath and kill himself when he doesn't get his way.

Have fun, move to LTK if you want. It really doesn't matter with the new 60 min window to kill a target. Neither guild has any reason to log in when another guild has their 60min window on lockdown. Furthermore Anon/Divinity threw their hat into the ring and CSG / BDA likely will sooner rather than later as well... there are only 2 safe kill spots and guilds will be forced to stack up anyways. Its to be expected. Even beyond this, LTK has 3-4 statics at LTK spawn and 3 wurm pathers that run by all in line of sight of the kill spot... yet you're concerned with risky trains at the entry cubby... that blows my mind.

[Kileras]

anon pulls to entrance with flurries regularly, we learned it because that is how we saw everyone else doing it. For the sake of not messing up our kill if we DO get an FTE, i am most comfortable at entrance. I do agree, entrance is incredibly stupid in my opinion and we only have learned it out of necessity. It is also easier because of faction issues and us not having deep enough pockets to bind our melee's in West.

We are fine with whatever you guys can come to agreement on and we will adapt. I do trust that due to the nature of your competition that the two of you will make sure each other do not have an unfair advantage, and if that is the case we can just nuzzle up with one of you and setup shop there.

We haven't pulled any baddies to west exit and are not experienced with how dangerous the LTK room adds are or are not, how much time we have before positioning of the mob is an issue, etc... We will have to learn that the hard way or any advice/input is appreciated because I would hate for any of you to get wiped in the process of our learning experience.

[Katpal]

This thread started as a request to move the starting line.

The bottom line is that the door is a terrible spot for a number of reasons, most of which would still be there if zone in killing were illegal (it's a narrow space that is easily crowded/blocked and the open/close nonsense is enough to drive anyone insane), so bringing up zone in killing in this thread doesn't make much sense.

Should zone in killing be stopped? Yes, imo, but we'd be better served to discuss that in another thread rather than to over complicate this one.

Divinity has no problem with the starting line being moved to the stairs.

Please be reminded, however, that as one guild has FTE, the racing will still go on (should targets be in window), so the starting line will be filled with racers. It's the responsibility of any guild conducting entrance pulls to not kill those people with trains, aoes, etc. No one is going to move off the starting line for you, nor should they have to.

[Daldaen]

The problem is, any starting line you choose, will be subject to another guild's pull / AEs so long as the zone in is an acceptable camp.

If the starting line is moved up to the stairs, and guilds are pulling to the entrance or to entry cubbies, you're still having dragons pulled over top of you that are likely to AEs as they come in.

If we want to move to line anywhere may as well move it to the back wall of the entrance room and require you be touching the back wall. This would be the furthest out of the way. Or more simply, in the bottom of the little pit right where you zone in at in the bottom level.

Anywhere is going to be packed during prime time, it doesn't matter how large you make the line. Aftermath had something like 20~ rogue/monk racers when I did a /who, I think Awakened had about 12-15. Anon had around 6, and Divinity/BDA I think each has 3 or so. That number will be bunched up wherever you put them.

[Katpal]

I agree that other problems still exist and this is only a solution to one of them, but it's the cards that we've been dealt and we have to start somewhere. With the new rules in place, we're likely going to have to tackle issues one at a time to get anything accomplished.

That being said, I would support a petition to make zone in killing illegal, should that opportunity present itself.

[Kileras]

why not move it up to the wall before the double doors leading to 4 way? if we are agreeing to move it why not be drastic with where we move it so that it isn't in the way of anyone getting hit with AoE's remotely.

I agree zone in killing is bad, but moving it up 10 feet is the typical band aid on a massive wound. Zone in killing is stupid, annoying, and bad all around. If you wipe ( for instance us new guilds may wipe on these targets ), we are going to kill your whole afk raid force and racers as it paths back and i don't know how we are supposed to feel responsible for that in the current state of things/positioning.

[Daldaen]

The wall would benefit people on the corners near the two doors and cause another huge pile up on those two corners... I don't think anyone will stand in the middle of the wall when they could stand on the corners and be closer to the doors, which doesn't solve the suggested problem.

The further you move it up the higher the likelihood your racers will be blasted by AEs. Whether that be the dragons AEs or train up AEs etc.

If anything I'd say just move it back to the back wall that you have to be touching. The wall is big and plenty of room to spread out. No dragon or train will ever be pulled over you. Even AFKing there when a guild pulls to an entrance cubby and wipes won't get proxy aggro through the door due to the distance. I think this is the real solution to the problem.

No zone in pulling + Back Wall Start Line.

No guild could accidentally train another guild really with these changes, nor will racers ever be AE'd unsuspectingly.

[bktroost]

The wall would benefit people on the corners near the two doors and cause another huge pile up on those two corners... I don't think anyone will stand in the middle of the wall when they could stand on the corners and be closer to the doors, which doesn't solve the suggested problem.

The further you move it up the higher the likelihood your racers will be blasted by AEs. Whether that be the dragons AEs or train up AEs etc.

If anything I'd say just move it back to the back wall that you have to be touching. The wall is big and plenty of room to spread out. No dragon or train will ever be pulled over you. Even AFKing there when a guild pulls to an entrance cubby and wipes won't get proxy aggro through the door due to the distance. I think this is the real solution to the problem.

No zone in pulling + Back Wall Start Line.

No guild could accidentally train another guild really with these changes, nor will racers ever be AE'd unsuspectingly.

This does seem to make sense.

[Katpal]

Sure, if you can manage to get the zone-in pulling issues resolved, the starting point is easy enough to fix.

[Pint]

You guys are going to end up being intentionally misled into denying yourselves the ability to pull mobs to the easiest place in the zone to position and pull to instead of just moving the starting line directly out of the door. No one will deny that clearing to the dragons will be in your benefit at the start bc regardless of where you want to pull you'll end up having to concede the first few mobs you attempt but when the novelty of killing trash wears off youre going to want a nice easy place to set up your raid and bring your dragon to. I would suggest that you guys send some scouts next cycle and gauge what resources it takes to safely pull and kill ntov dragons in west vs Ent.

As of now until sirken prohibits zone in kills, aftermath will continue to use this space and expect you to move your racers half an inch forward into the doorway arch to avoid aoes. Your other option is to stand in the aoe and die with fraps on, then send it to sirken and have him tell you whether or not you're justified or half retarded.

[Katpal]

I'm not convinced that the easiest spot is always the best spot, simply because it puts a hardship on players in an area that is supposed to be 100% safe. That's where I'd prefer to go the extra mile to try to work out a way to not kill here (at zone-in). I'm not sure of all the answers, but I'd like to keep working to figure at least some of them out and regardless, it's going to take compromise from everyone.

[Kileras]

You guys are going to end up being intentionally misled into denying yourselves the ability to pull mobs to the easiest place in the zone to position and pull to instead of just moving the starting line directly out of the door. No one will deny that clearing to the dragons will be in your benefit at the start bc regardless of where you want to pull you'll end up having to concede the first few mobs you attempt but when the novelty of killing trash wears off youre going to want a nice easy place to set up your raid and bring your dragon to. I would suggest that you guys send some scouts next cycle and gauge what resources it takes to safely pull and kill ntov dragons in west vs Ent.

As of now until sirken prohibits zone in kills, aftermath will continue to use this space and expect you to move your racers half an inch forward into the doorway arch to avoid aoes. Your other option is to stand in the aoe and die with fraps on, then send it to sirken and have him tell you whether or not you're justified or half retarded.

will we not be counter lawyered for pulling to entrance then and potentially wiping on a mob and having it eat your FTE team/force? I Imagine if we ever pulled something you would be right there to scoop it up ( unless the 60 minute rule really does end up being 60 minutes regardless of wipe attempts), so i assume you don't really care.

[Detoxx]

Aftermath will continue to pull to the zone in giving ample warning of a pull incoming unless stated by a GM that it is against the rules. We may try the cubby on some mobs (Excluding Vyemm, Jorlleag, Feshlak, Cekenar, Gozzrem, LtK), but I am hesitant to pull there due to the added risk of many more mobs being much closer to our raid force as well as having to push Gating and Complete Healing mobs.

We w

[phiren]

If the 5 guilds:
~Aftermath
~Awakened
~Anon/Div
~Europa/AG/Omni
~BDA

All took a vote on the different options, would everyone respect the vote?

~Phiren
Azure Guard

[arsenalpow]

If the 5 guilds:
~Aftermath
~Awakened
~Anon/Div
~Europa/AG/Omni
~BDA

All took a vote on the different options, would everyone respect the vote?

~Phiren
Azure Guard

No? Aftermath would just get out voted and then Detoxx/Pint would get all indignant.

[Detoxx]

No? Aftermath would just get out voted and then Detoxx/Pint would get all indignant.

This thread was exactly meant to do that and it has not. Since no one is saying whether or not they have a problem moving the line to the bottom of the stairs, we are going to continue with the status quo.

[Pint]

will we not be counter lawyered for pulling to entrance then and potentially wiping on a mob and having it eat your FTE team/force? I Imagine if we ever pulled something you would be right there to scoop it up ( unless the 60 minute rule really does end up being 60 minutes regardless of wipe attempts), so i assume you don't really care.

The cubbys outside the door are 100% safe and dragons will path back to spawn without bothering the people hiding in them, I use them all the time. Any guild who wipes at the entrance will be forced to concede the mob (that includes aftermath obviously). 60 minutes does not give you infinite attempts, it only gives you one per the rules. No offense but you guys are never going to wipe and recover before awakened or aftermath steal the dragon regardless of where it has to be killed.

As an aside, any guild that agrees to move the fte line outside of the doorway can schedule any time they want (outside of my work schedule) with their pull team and I will personally walk your team through how to pull to the entrance and drop your trains safely even going as far as to walk you through the individual intricacies of each dragon.

Aftermath will vote to move the position of the fte'ers but will only agree to stop using the zone in for kills if sirken makes that call. The zone in is the best place to kill dragons in tov if you want to get in and out. West exit is the only other option and the resources it takes to get clean pulls in is silly, not to mention half of awakeneds kills require persistent trains throughout the kills to keep the trash off themselves and aftermath isn't interested in that extra layer of potential risk. If we wipe at the zone in then we will concede the mob if it kills your fte team as a result. We suggest you simply move into the cubbys and avoid standing in traffic.

[arsenalpow]

Aftermath is more than willing to come to an agreement with other guilds when the agreement suits them, but if the other guilds come to an agreement that doesn't correspond with Aftermath's position then Aftermath reserves the right to agree to nothing and instead wait for the staff to intervene and force Aftermath to agree.

Noted.

This is all working out so well.