So what happened in luclin-pop?

[Philss]

Short story : im an old mmo player started with ultima online late 90s but i wasnt able to play everquest because my computer couldnt run it and my parent couldnt affort a better one ( i was 15 when eq was released .)

Just started here and im having alot of fun .
So my question is , what changed so much in luclin pop? Why is p99 locked at velious?

I did read about the xp on wiki but id like some player perspective.

[Rygar]

A lot of people liked the Alternate Abilities in Shadows of Luclin, but I am in the minority there. I feel AA's ruined the game experience for me.

As if investing in equipment for your high level toon wasn't enough work, Alternate Abilities made you commit to your main level character even more. It completely demoralized me from making any alts because the idea of getting all those points was overwhelming.

I also recall the abilities making classes SUPER powerful. If you think racing to a dragon is stressful now, there became small groups of wizards that would use their Manaburn ability to in instantly destroy mobs like Gorenaire. Planes of Power added more levels and more powerful items and spells, as a result other mobs and zones could be farmed easier.

AoE groups stepped it up big time to get lots of AA points, if you think Chardok is bad now you ain't seen nothing yet. Some guilds wouldn't let you in for reaching max level, you needed like 120+ points or something ridiculous.

I never raided any of this content, so can't comment there, but I hear it helped spread raid targets to more guilds. On my server I remember Veeshan's Peak not even being farmed, zone was near perma empty.

I would have liked AA's more if they just kept the first level of the abilities, such as increasing some of your base stats, tradeskills, and run speed.

On current live its crazy, High Level + tons of AA's can let a cleric solo the Avatar of War. To me, that is just a sad day, that was never meant to happen. I think the line needed to be drawn somewhere between 'classic' and 'the new day of Everquest'. Velious is that perfect line in my opinion.

[Daldaen]

AAs are good for that very reason. There was a desire to continue playing your character at the max level. Even for inconsequential things like Innate Dexterity on a caster. To start out, really after the first about 80-100 AAs everything else was fluff. You'd get a few big key things like Mass Group Buff, Spell Casting Mastery, and a class specific thing here or there. After that they were largely irrelevant in Luclin and PoP.

AAs also provided balance to the game. Currently in Velious melee reign supreme. However once AAs come in casters can regenerate more mana, save more mana, and do more damage. It greatly leveled the playing field on the archetypal level. More specifically it brought balance to individual classes. Rangers got Archery Mastery/Endless Quiver to bring their bow DPS up to par with other melee DPS when discing Trueshot. Wizards got Critical Blasts / Quick Damage / Harvest of Druzzil greatly increasing their value to a raid. Etc. etc. while the very OP classes got some very good abilities but not ones such that they remained head and shoulders above the others.

PoP was probably the point in EQ when classes were the most balanced of any time in EQ for both the raid and group scene.

Luclin raids were very good. People unfortunately tend to only remember their bad experiences with them, typically that means Vex Thal. However they also tend to forget the very cool encounters in Ssra like the Emperor, Cursed Cycle, Rhags, Arch Lich and XtCreator. Each tested another aspect of your raid. Akhevan Ruins probably had the expansions single best raid though.

Shei Vinitras was a glorious event that far too many guilds avoided/didn't ever get to experience. Every 2 minutes he would DT your tank forcing a tank swap. Every 3-4 he would spawn 4 adds, mixes of mezzable non-slowable and slowable non-mezzable. Forcing you to CC with both your enchanters and your shaman + Paladin/Knight offtanks. The room would mana drain people who stood in the center so you had to be wise about your mob positioning. And the room would spawn an additional random add every death that occurred, preventing a Zerg style fight and encouraging solid play. This type of event is what separated EverQuest raids from all other MMOs for awhile until they started stealing from EQ. Too many people think EQ became more like other MMOs and that's false one regards to raiding. They made challenging raid content way before others and did it in many different ways.

A cleric on P99 could solo Nagafen right now if not limited by the banish effect. All raid mobs will fall eventually to solo artists, that's the nature of the game. As the game progresses you inevitably get more powerful while old content stagnates. Too much "back in my day" thought goes into the mysticism of raid boss power from when you remember it. It's like getting upset over your Commodore 64 not being the powerhouse it was 30-35 years ago.

[Naethyn]

AA's are the best thing to ever come out of Everquest. It allowed for character development outside of gear that persists through new expansions. Leave any other mmo for two years and you are completely behind. With AA's that is not the case.

ToV becomes a harder raid zone with rooted dragons and ring events. Luclin added a ton of fun and challenging events for all levels. The grimling wars are a good example of lower level fun content. It also much improved all of the tradeskill level up paths. Luclin is classic. Please Luclin!

[xexbis0]

Dald made a great post. I think the answer you are looking for with "why capped at Velious?" is stripping down Luclin and PoP to classic code would probably be an insanely stupid amount of work compared to what time the devs are willing to put in. Velious took 4+ years to come about, and that's pre-Daybreak. Velious is largely an extension of Kunark.

[Herp]

Nilbog plz...

[maskedmelon]

The old world became obsolete.

[Evia]

What changed?

Luclin brought AA abilities (which I loved, but some like above poster disliked), cats on the moon! updated graphic models (which look -ok- for the most part but have HORRIBLE animations which make them ugly imho), Also new race the Vah Shir (CATS!)

PoP imho was the shittiest expansion for the immersive gamer. It brought portal books which basically made the game feel instanced and single player. The huge, vast, expansive norrath was crushed with the PoP books. I could travel from odus to faydark in minutes. People argue "but ports are the same thing!" no, no they are not. Ports require me to get involved in our community and thus still keeps me immersed and in the game world. Clicking a book just de-valued everything EQ was.

HOWEVER supposedly PoP had the greatest raiding but I never experienced any of it at the time. So I can't speak for that. PoP books though sucked.

[Rygar]

I respect what everyone says in terms of AA's balancing classes and reasons to play your mains, like I said, I know I'm in the minority here. For me, a lot of those things should have been done via patching or trainer points and not spending months and months grinding AA's to balance out your character only once you reach end game level.

I just had that nasty feeling looking at my AA screen, adding up how much time I'd need to spend to get all those points. It made the game feel like a grind / time sink more than ever.

[Spyder73]

I have a theory on this, and it has to do with the gaming climate of the era. Back in 1999 you had 2 options – Ultima Online or Everquest. Both games became massively popular and were generating HUGE revenue streams that gaming developers realized could be exploited…thus the age of the MMORPG was born. Around the PoP era EQ had devolved into a MASSIVE time sink (it still is) that very much was about exclusiveness. The casual player was all but relegated into obscurity. But there was a light at the end of the tunnel, new games similar to EQ were being developed. Soon we had the releases of Asheron’s Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Final Fantasy XI, multiple Ultima Online X-pacs, Shadowbane, EVE, Starwars Galaxies, Lineage, Horizons….All of a sudden gamers had TONS of options, and Everquest all of a sudden became synonamous with the “Obese basement dwelling man child” that we like to make fun of on these forums all too often.

So when the “new” wore off these new games and people tried to go back to EQ, they found the land of Norrath COMPLETELY different than when they left…Cats on the moon, AA’s, Plane of Knowledge, OMGERD – WHAT HAPPENED!!@!@!#????

So it is my contention that why people here love Velious so much is noting but a symptom of “good ole days” syndrome from when they remember actually enjoying EQ before they left to another game.

[snead]

What changed?

Luclin brought AA abilities (which I loved, but some like above poster disliked), cats on the moon! updated graphic models (which look -ok- for the most part but have HORRIBLE animations which make them ugly imho), Also new race the Vah Shir (CATS!)

PoP imho was the shittiest expansion for the immersive gamer. It brought portal books which basically made the game feel instanced and single player. The huge, vast, expansive norrath was crushed with the PoP books. I could travel from odus to faydark in minutes. People argue "but ports are the same thing!" no, no they are not. Ports require me to get involved in our community and thus still keeps me immersed and in the game world. Clicking a book just de-valued everything EQ was.

HOWEVER supposedly PoP had the greatest raiding but I never experienced any of it at the time. So I can't speak for that. PoP books though sucked.

how much interaction do you have with your taxi drivers(porters)? i'm just using their service to get some place and pay them. The most interaction i have is telling them where I am going and giving them my money. if i could instantly teleport to work i think i'd be a lot more happy than a one hour commute.

[SirAlvarex]

The POK books really took me out of the game. All of a sudden there were these books sitting near cities that you could click and go to a plane where *everything* was. It just made the game feel more like a video-game than a world.

Luclin brought the Bazaar (which I loved) but introduced new and better leveling spots from level 1. That made the old world more barren.

[eqravenprince]

Luclin Issues

The bazaar made the world seem less alive. AA's meant less people starting up alts which detracts new players since it was such a group dependent game, you needed a steady flow of alts. Took many years before Sony corrected the problem of having to solo your way to max level by adding Mercenaries and ridiculous gear that dropped off any mob in the game. And Luclin character graphics changes looked horrible. I realize that is subjective but just my opinion. Every character ran like they had a stick up their butt and just did not look as good.

PoP Isses

Ports everywhere, world suddenly felt very tiny. Low level characters would just port into PoK, get whatever high level buff and go to whatever continent wihin minutes. It just felt more like an arcade game, no immersion, no pride in your home town, no travel. It's a right of passage as a Erudite to have to take the boat to qeynos at level 1 for a lot of people and then wait even longer for a high level to show up to bind you. Or evil characters getting off the boat in Butcherblock trying to get to Crushbone without being killed by guards. None of that meant anything anymore. Oh and even more stupid raid content and bottlenecks slowing alts from being created on top of AAs, this killed new players from sticking to EQ, this was the death knell of EQ.

[Qwinny]

VT keys man, VT keys.

[Rygar]

how much interaction do you have with your taxi drivers(porters)? i'm just using their service to get some place and pay them. The most interaction i have is telling them where I am going and giving them my money. if i could instantly teleport to work i think i'd be a lot more happy than a one hour commute.

Paying porters was a revenue stream though, I agree that you aren't making friends on a port but you are giving them money which they may use to buy items. Maybe you want to get in on the action and create an alt to level up with porting in mind.

I don't know about you guys, but I also enjoy seeing every porter's recruitment tag line trying to earn business. Someone had one that tickled my funny bone.... was like 'Come with me if you want to port - now porting to WC / GD / etc'. I paid for a port and told him to keep up those awesome terminator references and he was like 'Affirmative!'. Ba-zing! Just one of those little things I like about the game.

[Tewaz]

I love this old argument!
Luclin brought a HUGE new continent with a ton of content, a new race, a new class, and a whole new way to advance your max level character. Tons of high level zones, tons of raids, awesome new models if you wanted them, etc.
I liked that you could port out by Wiz spire. I would still use a Dru/Wiz because it was faster, but if you were stuck in NK with no one available, at least you had an option.
New zones were super fun. Alien and not as D&D like, but really creative, fun and MASSIVE.
AA argument has been gone through already.
PoP book/PoK ruined things, true, but the Nexus is a great middle ground. I would say add Luclin without the Bazaar, then add PoP without PoK and make the entrance to PoT somewhere crazy like WL or WW.

[Daldaen]

I've always disliked the argument against Luclin being that the Nexus ruined the game. For me, it was quite to the contrary. It made the game feel more alive and magical. The spires interacted with the world in a very magnificient way the first time you see it.

It hardly impacted the porting business. You could travel from one of 5 destinations to the Nexus and then from the Nexus to one of those same 5 locations. The ports functioned on a 15 minute recast, so if you were traveling from A to B you needed to wait 0-15 minutes (7.5 average) and another 15 minutes in the Nexus to send you into your final destination. Many times you could damn near run there in that time span.

I actually really liked the PoK books as well because it meant the world was at your finger tips. Many times players would reject group invites because they're in Unrest and traveling to Sol A is a time commitment that would consume their entire play time that day. Whereas once PoK books came out you could easily travel between dungeon zones on your own, and attend groups wherever.

[snead]

The Bad:
1. horses needed new models

The Good:
1. raids were amazing (you killed fucking massive gods and shit how bad ass is that?)
2. aa's meant you could continue to play your main (i don't like alts)
3. plane of tranquility music (some of the best in the game and what i fell asleep to)
4. PoP specific zones were so pretty and fun to explore.
5. item loot made fucking sense and wasn't a bunch of bullshit (no wisdom on warrior only boots)
6. dyes (i can finally match or look bad ass while i kill shit)
7. Helm model off (not sure if this was added then but fuck it needs to be added here for style and rp purposes)
8. Cool looking items BoWar, jtb, etc.

[Ele]

I've always disliked the argument against Luclin being that the Nexus ruined the game. For me, it was quite to the contrary. It made the game feel more alive and magical. The spires interacted with the world in a very magnificient way the first time you see it.

It hardly impacted the porting business. You could travel from one of 5 destinations to the Nexus and then from the Nexus to one of those same 5 locations. The ports functioned on a 15 minute recast, so if you were traveling from A to B you needed to wait 0-15 minutes (7.5 average) and another 15 minutes in the Nexus to send you into your final destination. Many times you could damn near run there in that time span.

To that point, the Spires/Nexus up to and shortly after Luclin's release had a sweet live GM event surrounding them.

[xexbis0]

Chardok AoE won't exist post-revamp. I kind of agree with you about Chardok AoE, but I don't know if I could have done the stupidity of the 60 hour hell level grinds again on more than one character. One was enough. AA's made grouping on 60s healthy again. That part kinda stinks. There's raiding or farming at 60 now, and you better be an important class.

[Baldrek]

Luclin Issues

The bazaar made the world seem less alive. AA's meant less people starting up alts which detracts new players since it was such a group dependent game, you needed a steady flow of alts. Took many years before Sony corrected the problem of having to solo your way to max level by adding Mercenaries and ridiculous gear that dropped off any mob in the game. And Luclin character graphics changes looked horrible. I realize that is subjective but just my opinion. Every character ran like they had a stick up their butt and just did not look as good.

PoP Isses

Ports everywhere, world suddenly felt very tiny. Low level characters would just port into PoK, get whatever high level buff and go to whatever continent wihin minutes. It just felt more like an arcade game, no immersion, no pride in your home town, no travel. It's a right of passage as a Erudite to have to take the boat to qeynos at level 1 for a lot of people and then wait even longer for a high level to show up to bind you. Or evil characters getting off the boat in Butcherblock trying to get to Crushbone without being killed by guards. None of that meant anything anymore. Oh and even more stupid raid content and bottlenecks slowing alts from being created on top of AAs, this killed new players from sticking to EQ, this was the death knell of EQ.

This pretty much sums it up for me - well said!

[Cecily]

Chardok AoE won't exist post-revamp. I kind of agree with you about Chardok AoE, but I don't know if I could have done the stupidity of the 60 hour hell level grinds again on more than one character. One was enough. AA's made grouping on 60s healthy again. That part kinda stinks. There's raiding or farming at 60 now, and you better be an important class.

No offense, but you probably couldn't have. Neither could most people. Imagine how much less congested our end game would be had Chardok AE never happened.

[Dillian]

The Bad:
1. horses needed new models

The Good:
1. raids were amazing (you killed fucking massive gods and shit how bad ass is that?)
2. aa's meant you could continue to play your main (i don't like alts)
3. plane of tranquility music (some of the best in the game and what i fell asleep to)
4. PoP specific zones were so pretty and fun to explore.
5. item loot made fucking sense and wasn't a bunch of bullshit (no wisdom on warrior only boots)
6. dyes (i can finally match or look bad ass while i kill shit)
7. Helm model off (not sure if this was added then but fuck it needs to be added here for style and rp purposes)
8. Cool looking items BoWar, jtb, etc.
I might be wrong but i thought dyes came out with the LoY expansion.

[surron]

check out takproject.net if you want a classic experience (and a classic client to go with it) that will end at PoP

[Kaedain]

getting your vex thal key and ssra keys, two horrible bottle necks id rather never have to endure again, compound with the sheer amount of 60s on this server trying for it.. terrible

[iruinedyourday]

they changed character art from this:

http://i.imgur.com/XeSbSah.jpg

into this:

http://i.imgur.com/hKeQZmN.gif

[Rararboker]

Devs: Please don't go past Velious. Thanks!

Makes me so happy they've already stated they won't go passed Velious. The staff here rocks.

[Philss]

Just to be clear , im fine with velious , just interested in EQ history . Did not make this post to try and make dev add any other expension. Also thanks for the answer everyone i can understand why this wont go past velious .

[Cecily]

I just want AAs and superior character graphics.

[snead]

I might be wrong but i thought dyes came out with the LoY expansion.

i think you're correct. along with shared banking and other quality of life upgrades. that whole time period was so fast i forget what each expansion offered.

[Hyperbase-1999]

I sort of agree and disagree.

AA I thought was bad. I was on a 1 char per acount server and this made changing guilds very difficult. Sorry cant join unless you have 200 aa min.

Luclin ports I liked, soul binder was nice... It could take a week for me to get a port or bind sonetimes. (Timezone issues.)

Pok books I disliked.

Key quests I liked, zone flags as well... good gating mechanisms until you want alts in.

Armour dye... hated it. You knew someone's progression from just by looking at them. (And super man ogre dye.)

I hated the bazar.

I enjoyed the zone flow of luclin, and to a minor extent PoP... I could live with pop as a raid only expac with no exp being earnt!

[Katarumi]

I think the biggest loss caused by Luclin was the Bazaar killing EC Tunnel / proper selling. Instead of people yelling and hawking and running around like chickens with their heads cut off, it was people just standing around afk to sell their wares. It felt like it really took the magic out of the world and the community.

I miss beastlord though...

[Dacien]

how much interaction do you have with your taxi drivers(porters)? i'm just using their service to get some place and pay them. The most interaction i have is telling them where I am going and giving them my money. if i could instantly teleport to work i think i'd be a lot more happy than a one hour commute.

It's also a logistical thing. Will I find someone to port me? Will I be able to make it to the port area without dying (A real concern for a 46 Paladin in Velious)? Then comes the interaction. They agree to meet me at Kael Entrance! Cool. They heal me up, buff me, and take me where I want to go. Super grateful, we both say thanks.

That whole deal is much more interesting and immersive than clicking a book.

[mr_jon3s]

It's also a logistical thing. Will I find someone to port me? Will I be able to make it to the port area without dying (A real concern for a 46 Paladin in Velious)? Then comes the interaction. They agree to meet me at Kael Entrance! Cool. They heal me up, buff me, and take me where I want to go. Super grateful, we both say thanks.

That whole deal is much more interesting and immersive than clicking a book.

This argument is moot as the book wouldn't take you to Kael. So if you are talking about the Wakening lands entrance to Kael you would still have to call a druid. If you are talking about eastern wastes you would still have to run to great divide for the book or for a caster to pick you up and port you out.

Luclin & PoP were the best expansions dispite what some of the players on here say. Numbers don't lie PoP had the most subs and was the peak.

[Daywolf]

In a nutshell, it went from an open-world mmo to a themepark level progression grinder. Instead of expanding horizontally, the direction went vertically. Being more of the sandbox gamer, I pref the classic EQ. Played both EQ and UO early on, UO being a more traditional sandbox. But EQ classic has it's charm. Early SWG still being my fav ;)

[LethClaypool]

Most of my experience with EQ back in the day was with Velious and PoP. I was active during Luclin but I didn't do anything too heavy (where I raided in Velious and even more in PoP).

Most of this is just saying what's already been said but with my own opinion:

- With Luclin you got AAs which I personally loved. I wish more games used Alternate Advancement systems. I feel some of the classes got some game changing abilities that I felt required more investment than originally required but that's besides the point. It panned out to a lot of balancing factors by the time PoP came out. It was a more subtle way for developers to redefine the classes and push them towards specific roles without a sudden dynamic change.

- At the same time, portals/books. Luclin added a few timed spires that would teleport to four different areas in the game. They weren't so convenient that they made porters absolute. The PoP books didn't make them absolute either, as porters still had uses, but it did bite on one of their major defining abilities.

- Luclin DID make certain old world leveling zones much less populated. Paludal Caverns in particular was a mad house - becoming the new Crushbone up through High Hold Keep. You could go in one end of the zone (over by Shadoweaver's I believe) and level off monsters in the 7-10 range, and go in the opposite end of the dungeon by the bandit camps and do the teens off fungal fiends and 20s off bandits. It was a sort of one stop shop for a leveling range. I didn't really care for this personally, but that's just me.

- The bazaar was a good idea. Everquest is a time sync, Tunnelquest is a time sync. People have day jobs. This aloud them to at least get rid of shit while at work.

- Luclin added horses. I still feel the mechanic of sitting and meditating at the time was horse shit (hah, see what I did) but I think it was nice to provide travel and movement speed for players, plus the Paladin and Shadowknight AA mounts were cool during PoP.

- I didn't raid much during Luclin, nor play a Vah Shir so I can't speak for that. I do remember the shissar temple zone being fun, and I remember leveling some in Acrylic Caverns plus the Grimling Event.

- PoP had some fun raiding, the level cap increase was nice, the added AAs were nice. Could've done without PoK centralizing everything and the books, otherwise loved it. Loved the lore. Loved the zones. Reaching Plane of Time and the lore behind it in itself made the expac worth it to me.

TL;DR - AAs, some older content getting middle child treatment, Vah Shir, horses, oh and those ugly character models. Some fun content though.

[myriverse]

Luclin Issues

The bazaar made the world seem less alive. AA's meant less people starting up alts which detracts new players since it was such a group dependent game, you needed a steady flow of alts. Took many years before Sony corrected the problem of having to solo your way to max level by adding Mercenaries and ridiculous gear that dropped off any mob in the game. And Luclin character graphics changes looked horrible. I realize that is subjective but just my opinion. Every character ran like they had a stick up their butt and just did not look as good.

PoP Isses

Ports everywhere, world suddenly felt very tiny. Low level characters would just port into PoK, get whatever high level buff and go to whatever continent wihin minutes. It just felt more like an arcade game, no immersion, no pride in your home town, no travel. It's a right of passage as a Erudite to have to take the boat to qeynos at level 1 for a lot of people and then wait even longer for a high level to show up to bind you. Or evil characters getting off the boat in Butcherblock trying to get to Crushbone without being killed by guards. None of that meant anything anymore. Oh and even more stupid raid content and bottlenecks slowing alts from being created on top of AAs, this killed new players from sticking to EQ, this was the death knell of EQ.
A good 90% of the people I played with during those times did not have alts that mattered. There were so many people playing that groups were never hard to come by.

As for ports, the world needed to feel tiny because it had actually become unwieldy gargantuan. Without those ports available, it would have been hell.

[surron]

People think pok books ruined the roll of the porter and are largely mistaking...

-Want to go to seb or CoM? The FoB book allowed you to run there but a druid/wiz port saves you 5 minutes.

-Want to go to chardok? OT book, but again a druid/wiz port saves you 5 minutes.

-Want to go to solb? Nek book, but druid port saves you 5 minutes.

-Want to go anywhere in the karanas? druid/wiz port or 15 minutes for nexus spires.

-Want to go to Kael? GD book but druid/wiz port saves you 10 minutes.

-Want to go to IC/EW/ToFS/WL/SS/CS/SG/WW/ToV? GD book but druid/wiz port saves you 15+ minutes.

-Want to go anywhere in Luclin? druid/wiz port to dawnshroud or you're running there from Nexus... the book to SW is way out of the way for anything...

Velious / Luclin raid targets are still huge for PoP so its not like these locations are unrealistic to be traveling to in PoP. Even the kunark zones I mentioned still served a purpose in PoP.


Places that PoK books did trivialize...

-Noob towns (god forbid a noob doesn't have to wait 15mins for a port)

-Guk - Yea swamp book really made this an easy run

-Hole - Tox book makes this an easy run

-HS - OT book makes this an easy run

-OT Hammer - OT book

-Karnors - FV book bout the same run as druid/wiz port



Clearly when people say pok books trivialized porters they have no idea what they are talking about.

[jolanar]

I think the PoK books have as many pros as they do cons. I can definitely see why people wouldn't like them, but they were pretty much a necessary evil at that point in the timeline of EQ where the game was so top heavy, many newb zones were completely empty and finding ports was difficult.

Now the Luclin ports on the otherhand, people are delusional if they think anyone on this server would wait 15 minutes for a port, or 30 minutes for 2 if they needed to go from say Gfay to Nexus to NK.

There is nothing particularly wrong with Luclin content. AAs I have a feeling would bring back a ton of elitism and class favoritism as people at level 60 would again care about how quick the exp was coming in. Not to mention making it that much harder to break into the high end scene on P99 which is already a pretty daunting task for someone starting today at level 1.

[sedrie.bellamie]

when Luclin came out I had like a 55ish Shaman and my buddy a 55ish Cleric, I know we were not 60 and neither of us had epics. We were chilling and he said, you know there is a new xpac. I had not even bought Velious yet. But he told me of a new race and new class so we both we to an electronics boutique and picked up a copy. He made a cat rogue I believe and I started a cat beastlord. I would end up making a Troll Beastlord on RP server and wrecking people in the Oasis with the crocodile pet.

We never cared to get 60, we never cared to go through the work to get epics, we never cared to be in the popular zones grouping with randoms. We sat in Lower Guk and farmed AAs. I think I was like 55 shaman with 80+ AAs by the time of the froglok expansion. My buddy's brother took his SK to like 85 and raided all over the place but we just sat in Lower Guk. We had friends burn out and give us a 65 monk and a 75 necro; we just stayed in Lower Guk. They gave us PoK for free, so it made it easier to bank and get back to Lower Guk easier for my Troll after they took Grobb away from them. We stayed in Lower Guk till like the Fabled stuffed started dropping. That actually encouraged us to get out for a bit but around that time I think Counter Strike 1.6 was released; everyone moves on from EQ eventually.

Googling it seems Legacy of Ykesha and Counterstrike 1.6 both came out in 2003, so I played from 1999 to 2003 and never got 60 never did velious content and never raided competitively but enjoyed all the time I did grind away to make me hunt down p99. I like the p99 classic feel, things are not balanced, spells don't have descriptions or timers, there is a penalty to death, finesse is more important than just trying to brute your way through content.

tl;dr Luclin made Everquest easy, EQ is not suppose to be easy

[jolanar]

tl;dr Luclin made Everquest easy, EQ is not suppose to be easy

Mudflation is inevitable. Kunark made Classic easy but that doesn't mean Kunark was a bad expansion.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

This is what happened

http://eq.magelo.com/profile/482891

[Daldaen]

http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1185596

This happened too. It was glorious. I wasn't a fan of the itemization post TBS, but they had some cool things like the shawl, and mana proc augments.

[jwilda]

What happened was that travel got more convenient, so more zones became accessible. This opened up the world to more players.

The game got better.

People are blinded by that, however, because nostalgia.

[Arclyte]

What happened was that travel got more convenient, so more zones became accessible. This opened up the world to more players.

The game got better.

People are blinded by that, however, because nostalgia.

except the old world zones were dead because of shit like paludal caverns and superior luclin loot

[jwilda]

That's what happens when people have access to new things. If you had a brand new Corvette in the driveway, would you continue to drive the old Pinto that's sitting in the garage?

[Ket]

How can someone say people are wrong, when you just have to look at the numbers between this classic server, and any other server going past velious?

Numbers, people. Luclin/PoP inferior.

-Ket

[Tuurin]

For all of those purists out there that think the easy-travel POK books ruined your immersion in the game, let me ask you this:

If the GMs announced that for one weekend, anyone could bind in the TD firepots room- how many of you would be falling all over yourself trying to get bound there?

The reality is that after 5+ years on a game, it's not all that amazing of an experience to run from Freeport to Qeynos, or ride the jacked-up boats from Oasis to OT, or whatever since it's something that you've done before many times.

And it's not that amazing of an experience to group up with other newbs in CB or BB, since it's something that you've been able to do several times already with a couple different alts. So by the time POK book travel enters the game, it's not ruining immersion for most people, since you've already earned your bones killing krag chicks in butcherblock and would like to do something new.

I don't think anyone is arguing that those things should be in day 1 of a server (or even 6 months in, or whatever). But after years of classic content, people either stagnate on doing the same things over and go to another game or obsess over dominating the already-trivialized raid content that has been consumed and regurgitated countless times already.

[Arclyte]

That's what happens when people have access to new things. If you had a brand new Corvette in the driveway, would you continue to drive the old Pinto that's sitting in the garage?

It makes the decision easier when the new stuff is also superior in every way.

Also, cats on the moon with space aliens and shitty models.

We went from this:
http://o.aolcdn.com/dims5/amp:c7cbd57cd98d7a5577b45c7ce7197ae302a7bb22/t:1200,630/q:80/?url=http%3A%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fmassively.joystiq .com%2Fmedia%2F2012%2F10%2F10.jpg

to this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/24/bb/13/24bb13edeb49c735ab98a6ddf3900e33.jpg

[Dacien]

Mudflation is inevitable. Kunark made Classic easy but that doesn't mean Kunark was a bad expansion.

I feel like a new player would experience the same difficulty leveling up in Classic or Kunark. I feel like that same player would have a noticeably easier time in Luclin or PoP.

Kunark made Classic easier only if you had end game chars or connections on the server.

[renordw]

how much interaction do you have with your taxi drivers(porters)? i'm just using their service to get some place and pay them. The most interaction i have is telling them where I am going and giving them my money. if i could instantly teleport to work i think i'd be a lot more happy than a one hour commute.

I'm getting so sick of this argument. Druids and wizards give up a LOT on utility spells to be able to port. I quit my Wizard when POK came out, because I could teleport around the same fucking way on my Enchanter, who has dozens of more useful utility spells.

[Daldaen]

PoP was great for wizards.

Spell Casting Fury / Mastery Fury / Fury of Magic (20% Critical Blast)
Spell Casting Mastery (10% Mana Preservation)
Strike of Solusek
15 Worn FT Stacking + 3 Mental Clarity
Harvest of Druzzil (450 mana every 6?min)
Allegiance Familiar (8 FT, 30 sv all, 300 mana poop increase, see invis, less fizzles)
Return of 60+ mobs that don't summon for quadding possibilities!

PoP was right when things started getting incredible for Wizards!

[Tewaz]

PoP was great for wizards.

Spell Casting Fury / Mastery Fury / Fury of Magic (20% Critical Blast)
Spell Casting Mastery (10% Mana Preservation)
Strike of Solusek
15 Worn FT Stacking + 3 Mental Clarity
Harvest of Druzzil (450 mana every 6?min)
Allegiance Familiar (8 FT, 30 sv all, 300 mana poop increase, see invis, less fizzles)
Return of 60+ mobs that don't summon for quadding possibilities!

PoP was right when things started getting incredible for Wizards!

This

[Psionide]

Anyone comparing POK books to druids and wizards is a fucking moron that needs to go play a different game. Yeah, lets take away one of the only completely player run aspects of the game. Fucking brilliant.

[Zorlon]

The increase from level 60 to 65 in PoP also required quite a bit of mudflation to the gear which ultimately made all other previous content in the game irrelevant. There was no longer any need or desire to back raid previous expansions.

In Luclin there was still a reason to go kill AoW or Vulak for example. Hell, there was even a little bit of a reason to maybe go back and knock Phara Dar on the head once in a while. A reasonable number of AA's kept people interested and playing and invested in their characters. Travel didn't instantly become trivial although the Nexus spires were a big thing. Moving people from EC to the Bazaar wasn't a bad thing but I will concede that allowing for AFK trader mode did take away a lot of social interaction so I wasn't always a fan of that feature.

tldr; A Luclin-locked server would be a really great server. PoP locked server is bad, in my opinion. I don't even know if this is relevant to the topic, I didn't read all 6 pages ;)

[Cecily]

I'm getting so sick of this argument. Druids and wizards give up a LOT on utility spells to be able to port. I quit my Wizard when POK came out, because I could teleport around the same fucking way on my Enchanter, who has dozens of more useful utility spells.

Uh... Druids are 100% utility. Wizards are a specialist class, with porting to give them some utility. I'm not seeing where they gave up "a LOT" for ports. All I'm seeing is that you gave up a damage specialist for a different kind of specialist b/c you were upset about ports not being your defining class feature.

[fadetree]

Pop greatest expansion ever.
What happened in luclin? Rangers. Plus six glorious hours after a patch when they broke archery delay.

[Tuurin]

Anyone comparing POK books to druids and wizards is a fucking moron that needs to go play a different game. Yeah, lets take away one of the only completely player run aspects of the game. Fucking brilliant.

This guy so eloquently illustrates the real reason why people don't like POK books. It has nothing to do with the thrill of adventure that you get from staring at a dock for 20 minutes, then at the deck of a boat for another 30 minutes.

The reason there's so much vitriol about POK books is because the porting classes want to keep charging a tax on travel, and people are willing to pay it since the other option is mind-numbing boredom and a waste of RL time.

[NarcolepticLTD]

This guy so eloquently illustrates the real reason why people don't like POK books. It has nothing to do with the thrill of adventure that you get from staring at a dock for 20 minutes, then at the deck of a boat for another 30 minutes.

The reason there's so much vitriol about POK books is because the porting classes want to keep charging a tax on travel, and people are willing to pay it since the other option is mind-numbing boredom and a waste of RL time.

From someone who never paid for a port on live (I ran everywhere and took the boat before SoL spires were added when needing to swap continents), the PoK books absolutely destroyed the immersion of old world. It just became a completely different game.

P99 is a lot different from classic live since it was stuck in kunark for years, with a server population heavily weighted to max level with plat bleeding out of it's eyeballs. Everyone has a hammer, wants the illusion that they're playing classic EQ, but want their instant travel and will throw that plat at the first druid that responds to them when they /ooc for a ride to WC/WL/CS/ETC, while running to SF ramp from the outpost.

I agree that boats are shit though. Spires got rid of the need to use the boats unless you specifically needed to do something in TD/OOT, or weren't high enough level to safely navigate your way from say, Cabilis > DL and make it across the zone, through the tunnel to the spires.

EDIT: Also, evacs to EJ from HS/Droga are another example... people pay 100-200+ plat for this... but the time it takes for you to find a druid who's high enough level (and willing to take the risks), run to said dungeon and then cast the port... you'd already be in FoB about to zone EJ. It takes all of 5 minutes with a sow and a lev from the outpost to EJ on foot.

[Psionide]

While we're at it lets have sow bots and rez bots. Maybe we can just go all the way and just implement mercs because whats the difference? Honestly, why should we be expected to interact with other people in a MMO?!?!?!?!

[jwilda]

You make it sound like a few simple enhancements to the game make it single player. It's called convenience. Actually accomplishing anything (raiding), still requires coordination between a large group of people. Especially zones like ssra temple, VT, elemental planes, and potime.

Also, instanced raiding.

[Psionide]

Please help me understand why you are playing on a classic emu if you don't want classic mechanics? For real, like this is the exact type of attitude that turned a good game into the garbage that eq live eventually became.

[jwilda]

I haven't actively played on the server in several months. I just find this to be an intriguing topic because of many similar threads on mmo-champion that have started because of the shutdown of the Nostalrius vanilla WoW private server. It's interesting how people only want to look through their rose colored glasses at original versions of games, and refuse to even acknowledge that features added later on in the game actually made the game objectively better. I say objectively because Everquest subscription was at its height when these supposedly horrible, game-ruining features were introduced.

[Llurendt]

Interestingly, people playing live (of either game, since you brought it up) often refuse to acknowledge the things that shouldn't have been changed. All people have trouble looking at things objectively. Most people also have trouble seeing how anyone could enjoy something they don't.

I personally very much enjoy high difficulty encounters where you NEED a group of competent people to succeed and I like seeing those while I level up, NOT just at end-game. Sure, there probably ought to be ways to avoid those during the leveling process, but they should also have higher rewards than the avoidant route. The encounters require hard work to complete, but with slightly higher rewards, everyone can feel alright about their chosen path.

I am also able to acknowledge that there are a lot of people who want to be able to play a game solo and only have the multiplayer aspect to be able to make friends and talk to people while they play (hence the idea of making leveling possible without those hard encounters). I don't understand peoples' need to force everyone to their point of view...

[Psionide]

Yeah and Lich King was the height of wows subs but yet the consensus is that was the xpac that started everything downhill. If we just go based on numbers alone than I guess Justin Bieber is better than tons of other actually good musicians. This is also why you don't see project2003 or why other emus in that era barely break 100 person population yet the holy trinity eq emu has the most players steadily.

[Cecily]

You're pretty furious lol. I think the rest of us can all agree we would like to see PoK books on P99.

[Swish]

How would new players get on the tunnelquest ladder if they put PoK books in? Dial A Port would be gone for the most part.

[Mistle]

Nope. No PoK books.

[Vidar]

You're pretty furious lol. I think the rest of us can all agree we would like to see PoK books on P99.

Abso-fuckin-lutely not.

[Haynar]

There are many that cannot believe that p99 would just stop, and never see Luclin or PoP.

No matter how many times they are told, they still won't believe the answer.

[Swish]

What about cats in lost dungeons of norrath tho? I'd like to see that... with LoY zones.

[Cecily]

It's not Everquest without fluorescent pink ogres.

[mr_jon3s]

There are many that cannot believe that p99 would just stop, and never see Luclin or PoP.

No matter how many times they are told, they still won't believe the answer.

Im just wait for p2002 or takproject to get to luclin. Once they get released I'm gonna start playing those.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I cannot believe some people are actually arguing for plane of knowledge and bazaar. I wish I was a guide. I'd port you immersion-killing bastards into the maze in Skyshrine and reset your sense heading to zero.

[Haynar]

Im just wait for p2002 or takproject to get to luclin. Once they get released I'm gonna start playing those.
P2002 will be in luclin first. You should go there, if you think its appropriate comparing p2002 and takp. Have fun with all the LDs and lag.

Here's your sign.

[Ennewi]

Denial -> anger -> bargaining -> depression -> acceptance. Just think of them as expansions.

[Dacien]

This guy so eloquently illustrates the real reason why people don't like POK books. It has nothing to do with the thrill of adventure that you get from staring at a dock for 20 minutes, then at the deck of a boat for another 30 minutes.

The reason there's so much vitriol about POK books is because the porting classes want to keep charging a tax on travel, and people are willing to pay it since the other option is mind-numbing boredom and a waste of RL time.

I dunno man, the boats added gravity to the world when I played back in the day. Call me crazy, but boat times made the world seem real. I liked it. Had to take the boats often too, for corpse recoveries. Made death more scary, that's for sure. Which again, made Norrath seem alive.


I haven't actively played on the server in several months. I just find this to be an intriguing topic because of many similar threads on mmo-champion that have started because of the shutdown of the Nostalrius vanilla WoW private server. It's interesting how people only want to look through their rose colored glasses at original versions of games, and refuse to even acknowledge that features added later on in the game actually made the game objectively better. I say objectively because Everquest subscription was at its height when these supposedly horrible, game-ruining features were introduced.

Yeah, casual MMO gameplay is pretty popular, I'll grant you that.

I know "casual" has become a dirty word, but I'm simply using it as a descriptor.

[Psionide]

Everything released by SoE/Verant up to some certain point is classic. Everyone else here gets to decide for themselves what that point is.

Classic isn't Vanilla through Velious just because you think it is. There are many people who think PoP was the peak of "classic" Everquest. And there's an argument to be made that the sub numbers from back in the day reflect that fact.

And just because you think pop was classic eq doesn't mean it was either, see I can do it too:D Except it wasn't me saying this was classic it was taken straight from the fucking homepage by the people that run this server let me copy it for you....

"Relive the classic Everquest MMORPG Gaming Experience as it was in 1999 and onward. Project 1999 is a free to play Emulated Everquest Server giving Players the opportunity to experience Classic EQ Once again, currently in the Velious expansion and a max level of 60, with the look and feel of the old interface and several modifications making game mechanics similar to how the game used to be. Project 1999 is the best and most popular classic Everquest experience."

For the sake of disclosure, I actually play on TAKP and I think there are fantastic elements to SOL and POP but I don't think they outweigh the bad. Finally and most importantly you won't see me pushing for elements from those expansions on a emu that is SPECIFICALLY trying to recreate the EQ experience without them. Hence, why if I want to go experience that I go to a server that is dedicated to that, I just don't understand why that is so mind boggling?

[myriverse]

Please help me understand why you are playing on a classic emu if you don't want classic mechanics? For real, like this is the exact type of attitude that turned a good game into the garbage that eq live eventually became.
There is one reason I play on this server, and it's got nothing at all to do with classic.

The boxing policy.

[fadetree]

Yeah, I play on P99 for reasons other than just that it's classic, although that's certainly a draw. My own feeling is that EQ up through PoP was 'classic', and it was after PoP that it went entirely off the rails.

Haynar, I for one am fully aware that P99 will never go past SoV. I just wish it would. Would I play 2002 or tak when they get to PoP? That's doubtful, unless they put in the same kind of work that P99 did to unroll all the post-PoP crap and make the server stable and prevent asshats from boxing. If all I wanted was PoP I'd go solo the place in live.

[surron]

Haynar, I for one am fully aware that P99 will never go past SoV. I just wish it would. Would I play 2002 or tak when they get to PoP? That's doubtful, unless they put in the same kind of work that P99 did to unroll all the post-PoP crap and make the server stable and prevent asshats from boxing. If all I wanted was PoP I'd go solo the place in live.

lol dude has no idea what he's talking about... stick to p99 please

p99 uses a client built for the 10th expansion of EQ (mouse scroll, tab cycle, countless of other quality of life settings in options that make the game EASIER) while tak/p2002 use the correct client... and the same dude (Haynar) who codes network logic on p99 did it for tak...


and if you think no one boxes on p99 you're dumber than a toad because a 2nd computer + a smart phone tether = undetected boxing

[Dillian]

copy+paste lol

[Tuurin]

Surron, since you're clearly smarter than the rest of the community (definitely not dumber than a toad, like Fadetree obviously is), you must understand that porting, Luclin models, bazaar, etc. all have NOTHING to do with the function of the game that a lot of people care most about- combat, grouping, etc.

Boxing, on the other hand, has everything to do with how people play the game and go about defeating the content- it makes people able to essentially solo most of the content and promotes non-interaction. Therefore, it is reasonable for people to want to play on a server that actively discourages/bans people when they are doing things that trivialize content (like boxing) but still want to have some of the conveniences that have been added that do nothing to trivialize content but make the limited play time that we have more enjoyable. That's really not that hard to comprehend, is it? And yes, there is a "line" that most people feel they wouldn't cross, and it's generally at/around POP for content. If I wanted 40 slot bags, mercs, /find, station store, etc. I could go and play on live or Phinny or whatever. I realize that.

*Haynar/devs- I'm not "pushing" for anything. I fully understand that these changes are not coming to P99. I'm really just bored at work and engaging in theoreticals.

[Fryhole]

lol dude has no idea what he's talking about... stick to p99 please

p99 uses a client built for the 10th expansion of EQ (mouse scroll, tab cycle, countless of other quality of life settings in options that make the game EASIER) while tak/p2002 use the correct client... and the same dude (Haynar) who codes network logic on p99 did it for tak...


and if you think no one boxes on p99 you're dumber than a toad because a 2nd computer + a smart phone tether = undetected boxing

Exactly. Everyone should be allowed to bring up 1 other account. Don't tell me you're claiming some horribly slow exp camp with your <insert family member here>. I'm not sure how things like Chardok proxy, paid plvl, 'pay to loot X item' (etc) in general aren't detracting in the same way as allowing someone to accomplish these things themselves.

[Trollhide]

Exactly. Everyone should be allowed to bring up 1 other account. Don't tell me you're claiming some horribly slow exp camp with your <insert family member here>. I'm not sure how things like Chardok proxy, paid plvl, 'pay to loot X item' (etc) in general aren't detracting in the same way as allowing someone to accomplish these things themselves.
All the things you mentioned were possible, and happened, within the confines of the classic ruleset on live. Boxing was not, because EQ crashed if you attempted to alt+tab until the January 9, 2003 patch.

[Fryhole]

All the things you mentioned were possible, and happened, within the confines of the classic ruleset on live. Boxing was not, because EQ crashed if you attempted to alt+tab until the January 9, 2003 patch.

I did this first hand, and I get it - apparently I was supposed to take a picture of myself being a hardcore nerd. Pressing alt+tab to swap the game running in windowed mode wasn't required. Maybe alt+tab did crash the client, but again, it wasn't required. Windows 98 had 'internet connection sharing'. We had 2 PCs running 2 clients by the end of Kunark.

2000 dated forum posts discussing EQ windows mode (http://eqclerics.org/forums/archive/index.php?t-1667.html)

[Cecily]

You guys are pretty mean for server chat. Why don't you bring that nerd aggression to RNF? We sorely need it over there.

[fadetree]

lol dude has no idea what he's talking about... stick to p99 please

p99 uses a client built for the 10th expansion of EQ (mouse scroll, tab cycle, countless of other quality of life settings in options that make the game EASIER) while tak/p2002 use the correct client... and the same dude (Haynar) who codes network logic on p99 did it for tak...


and if you think no one boxes on p99 you're dumber than a toad because a 2nd computer + a smart phone tether = undetected boxing

Wow, now I'm all sad, because Surron thinks I'm dumb. I will stick to P99, so no danger to you and your pet project.

[surron]

Sorry I hurt your feelings fadetree I just get upset when people propagate bullshit. It's not my project either, I am not a dev.

[RTukka]

There is one reason I play on this server, and it's got nothing at all to do with classic.

The boxing policy.
The boxing policy is a big positive for me as well.

There are certain qualities of "classic" EQ (as defined by the Project 1999 team) that I like, others I dislike, and some that I could either take or leave.

I like that the pace of combat and progression is relatively slow, and that there is a relatively steep penalty for death (in terms of XP and recovery time), which generally leads players to take a more deliberate pace with a lot of content, which is a marked contrast from many other modern MMOs I've played, where the expectation is that you will try to speed-run everything as efficiently as possible, with virtually anonymous group members.

When it comes to the lack of portals/automated teleports, I have mixed feelings. It does make the world feel larger, and it does encourage more player interaction, although the quality of said interaction is usually pretty low when you're talking about something like a quick DaP transaction.

I'm not a huge fan of the EC tunnel. Again, the quality of player interaction that goes on there just isn't very high. Most of the transactions you have there are straight-forward and uninteresting enough that we might as well be virtual NPCs sitting in stalls with a more convenient interface.

And I can understand the distaste people have for Shadows of Luclin from a lore/thematic point of view. The cats bug me a little but aren't a deal-breaker for me, and I'd have preferred it if all of the action took place on Norrath and the Planes instead of various alien worlds. Though I think a lot of Luclin zones were pretty cool.

And though I don't think the Nexus was really a bad addition, I think the PoK books probably shrunk the world a bit too much. If I were to recreate PoP, I'd add a Nexus/Plane of Tranquility connection and remove the books.

Luclin graphics were a mixed bag. I like the increased level of detail and some of the models are good, but I generally prefer the art direction of the older models and I don't like that they eliminated visual diversity by having the same graphics for original/Velious armor.

But I'm sure there are a lot of people that have markedly different taste from me, so I can understand the taking the semi-arbitrarily position of making Velious the cut-off and taking the simple approach of trying to stick to classic as much as possible with regard to game mechanics and content.

[Sancta]

There is one reason I play on this server, and it's got nothing at all to do with classic.

The boxing policy.

Finally someone gets it, I'm sure many more people would play on p2002 or tak if those servers had the same boxing policy as P99. I can almost guarantee 99% they would, get it?

[Alanus]

On the topic of AAs, they were great at first. Luclin AAs were about perfect. Nothing super overpowering (well, once Manaburn got nerfed), nothing that really was game-changer for the most part. Just stuff that really helped, but weren't essential.

However, in PoP, they adjusted the encounters for AAs. For example, raid mobs in PoFire had AEs of like 2k and higher, so if you didn't have healers with Mass Group Buff and a group heal (to heal the entire raid), you couldn't kill those mobs. You also had to wait for them to recharge before you could pull a mob, if you already used it.

The gear changed so much, too. Items got much, much, much more powerful. If you took an expansion of two off, for whatever reason, you were so far behind that it was impossible to catch up since everyone had 500+ AA more than you now, and your formerly uber gear is now laughable and you are essentially useless.

[Zar211]

Define classic?

classic
when something is amazing, cool, an old school way back, funny or otherwise totally worth remembering or mentioning.

I didn't personally care for Luclin, but really enjoyed PoP, did port books ruin the game? IMO no, while it was nice to not have to wait for a porter to get to trivial areas, it was still faster with porters for end game areas.

Did the bazaar ruin the game? IMO, nope, while it gave people the option to sleep and sell, more power to them, didn't ruin my experience.

What DID ruin EQ was that shit-hole expansion called Gates of Discord, if you played anything past PoP, i'm fairly confident you would agree with PoP being the end of " classic " era.

[Trungep99]

Luclin was lame, the nexus alone kind of ruined the appeal behind of classic eq with quick transport between areas without a wiz or Druid friend.

[Amyas]

I loved the AA in luclin PoP made 60% of the game worthless PoP killed EQ for me.

[Vexenu]

MMOs work by providing the player a series of hoops to jump through. The player receives satisfaction through the process of jumping through those hoops: the planning, the anticipation, the organization, the execution and finally the aftermath. Then it's on to the next hoop to repeat the process. These hoops are most obviously recognized in the form of levels and items. Each level is a hoop to jump through, and each piece of gear the player works to acquire is another. Other games have copied this basic formula.

What makes Everquest different from most of its successors, however, is all of its little hoops. Finding a group is a hoop to jump through. Getting from point A to point B is a hoop. Simply farming enough platinum to purchase an item does not mean one can immediately buy it. You have to find the item for sale in EC and meet up with the seller. Another hoop. If you make an alt and want to gear him out, you have to find another trustworthy player to transfer items for you. Another hoop.

Basically, EQ is filled with hoops that must be jumped through at every level of the game. This is why the game is satisfying - usually inexplicably to the uninitiated - because doing even relatively simple things provides some base level of challenge and effort, and when finished we feel some sense of accomplishment, however minor (i.e. taking the boat from Erudin to Qeynos - a small victory!). Of course, this is also what makes the game such an enormous timesink, and what can make it feel like work at times. But it is what it is - that's Everquest.

This is why so many of the post-Velious changes drastically altered the feel of the game. The removal of hoops - even small ones - resulted in a different gaming experience.

[Evia]

MMOs work by providing the player a series of hoops to jump through. The player receives satisfaction through the process of jumping through those hoops: the planning, the anticipation, the organization, the execution and finally the aftermath. Then it's on to the next hoop to repeat the process. These hoops are most obviously recognized in the form of levels and items. Each level is a hoop to jump through, and each piece of gear the player works to acquire is another. Other games have copied this basic formula.

What makes Everquest different from most of its successors, however, is all of its little hoops. Finding a group is a hoop to jump through. Getting from point A to point B is a hoop. Simply farming enough platinum to purchase an item does not mean one can immediately buy it. You have to find the item for sale in EC and meet up with the seller. Another hoop. If you make an alt and want to gear him out, you have to find another trustworthy player to transfer items for you. Another hoop.

Basically, EQ is filled with hoops that must be jumped through at every level of the game. This is why the game is satisfying - usually inexplicably to the uninitiated - because doing even relatively simple things provides some base level of challenge and effort, and when finished we feel some sense of accomplishment, however minor (i.e. taking the boat from Erudin to Qeynos - a small victory!). Of course, this is also what makes the game such an enormous timesink, and what can make it feel like work at times. But it is what it is - that's Everquest.

This is why so many of the post-Velious changes drastically altered the feel of the game. The removal of hoops - even small ones - resulted in a different gaming experience.

This guy gets it

[Psionide]

Stuff....

For the record, I think vanilla is "classic" EQ.

[Swindle]

Luclin gave Enchanters the spell KEI, turning the game into a drug dealer simulator. Just sit in the Nexus, cast KEI, and profit from the donations. I had my own corner and regular repeat "customers". I remember buying the spell for 10K and had it paid off in a day.

[NarcolepticLTD]

I used to go stand in nexus mass KEI's on my monk just cause.

[LethClaypool]

You know what's a true time-told classic?

This discussion.

[myriverse]

People so jelly of kitties.

[Centurionx]

The POK books really took me out of the game. All of a sudden there were these books sitting near cities that you could click and go to a plane where *everything* was. It just made the game feel more like a video-game than a world.

Luclin brought the Bazaar (which I loved) but introduced new and better leveling spots from level 1. That made the old world more barren.

I know exactly what you mean. The books ruined any sense of "adventure", there was no
journey anymore and to me that was almost half the fun. I did appreciate the bazaar, but after leveling to 80+ on live a couple years ago, I noticed pretty much all the old world, Kunark, Velious, hell even luclin and most of the planes were DEAD... Even on a server with a fairly high population. P99 seems way more populated than the live server I played on lol.

[Centurionx]

Luclin gave Enchanters the spell KEI, turning the game into a drug dealer simulator. Just sit in the Nexus, cast KEI, and profit from the donations. I had my own corner and regular repeat "customers". I remember buying the spell for 10K and had it paid off in a day.

Haha! I used to pay enchanters 100pp+for KEI every time.

I was a fiend for that crack:eek:

[Brontus]

Any MMO that doesn't expand is doomed. You can't keep expecting players to keep playing when they are stuck at level 60 with the very best loot and have nowhere left to progress. They will roll alts and get them to 60 and then roll more alts. All of this creates more competition for scarce high level raid content.

Yes there are bad things about Shadows of Luclin and the Planes of Power but the devs don't have to implement *all* of them. They can take the good things and omit the bad.

Omit the following:

-horrible Luclin character graphics
-the Bazaar
-PoK books

Problem solved!

Question: Why does it have to be all or nothing?

Answer: it doesn't.

P.S. It would be really helpful if the management of P1999 would engage in some dialogue with the community about the future of this server.

[NarcolepticLTD]

Any MMO that doesn't expand is doomed. You can't keep expecting players to keep playing when they are stuck at level 60 with the very best loot and have nowhere left to progress. They will roll alts and get them to 60 and then roll more alts. All of this creates more competition for scarce high level raid content.

Yes there are bad things about Shadows of Luclin and the Planes of Power but the devs don't have to implement *all* of them. They can take the good things and omit the bad.

Omit the following:

-horrible Luclin character graphics
-the Bazaar
-PoK books

Problem solved!

Question: Why does it have to be all or nothing?

Answer: it doesn't.

P.S. It would be really helpful if the management of P1999 would engage in some dialogue with the community about the future of this server.


It's a free server, so really once you're 'done' with everything you'd like to accomplish on p99, or you get bored enough... you leave (or roll an alt or 10). What happens to the server after that point in your experience shouldn't really matter, as new people will find p99 and get started with all the feels and nostalgia from this era of EQ.

If the lack of progression really did cause the community to die off... it would have happened well before the 5 years of kunark were broken by velious. If the staff were to comment on this dialog, that would put them in a situation where they may be perceived as having promised something that they may not be willing to commit to.

[Tarskin]

POP defined a lot of the classes that had no real uniqueness to them right now. The rangers being a prime example with endless quiver, allowing for a single arrow to be POP boss loot...

[fadetree]

Yeah, the Ranger Luclin AA's actually made the class into what (I believe) it was originally intended to be. You still had to work your ass off for it, but at least you could stand out from the mediocre DPS crowd once in a while.

[dcbone86]

PoP ruined the sense of adventure for me. Luclin wasn't bad, minus the space cats, because I really liked the lore and events leading up to the xpac. The fact there was a unique item and title granted to the people involved made the world more exciting.

I remember it to this day, but it was a real turning point for me when I saw someone soloing one of the world dragons. I think it was not long after PoP release that people were able to do this and to think I had this epic sense of achievement raiding these things and all of that trivialized by an expansion. I quit shortly after.

I would also be weary of spreading the population too thin by adding Luclin.

[Baler]

... I had this epic sense of achievement raiding these things and all of that trivialized by an expansion.

I would also be weary of spreading the population too thin by adding Luclin.

Yes and Yes.

[Aildrik]

It's a free server, so really once you're 'done' with everything you'd like to accomplish on p99, or you get bored enough... you leave (or roll an alt or 10). What happens to the server after that point in your experience shouldn't really matter, as new people will find p99 and get started with all the feels and nostalgia from this era of EQ.

If the lack of progression really did cause the community to die off... it would have happened well before the 5 years of kunark were broken by velious. If the staff were to comment on this dialog, that would put them in a situation where they may be perceived as having promised something that they may not be willing to commit to.

^^ This ^^
Myself and a few friends just rolled up characters on this server. Back when EQ first came out I had all the hours in the day to play if I wanted and it still took a while to hit L50. Now I can only dedicate a few hours a night. I'd like to hit max level again so this looks to be a long road to (re)travel, but I will enjoy it.

For what it is worth, Vanilla through Velious was EQ at its best ...in my eyes. Most of the good friends I made ingame through the years quit at the end of Velious. It really became a different game from Luclin onwards. Heck, spin up a new server for that if there is really a demand but don't mess up this one :(

[Tethler]

MGB parties at the PoK bank!

I switched my main to druid near the end of Luclin and hit max a little bit into PoP. I geared myself on selling ports even when the PoK books were available. I'd hop over to the spires where people were waiting and scoop them up so they didn't have to wait for another 10 minutes. Made plenty of cash doing that until I started charm soloing the werewolf camp in Plane of Nightmare for those piles of sweet sweet diamonds.

[Morningbreath]

Yeah, the Ranger Luclin AA's actually made the class into what (I believe) it was originally intended to be. You still had to work your ass off for it, but at least you could stand out from the mediocre DPS crowd once in a while.

Yeah stuff like balancing Rangers and wizards shouldn't have required AA grinding on the part of the players are though. The Ranger class icon had a bow and arrow while wizards were described as the "unrivaled" master of damage.

That's really all that bothers me about this trapped-in-amber Jurassic Park project.

[fadetree]

I liked the fact you had to grind. Not every fool who decides to run around in green tights should get to be a badass Ranger.

[CoffeeBreath]

Finally someone gets it, I'm sure many more people would play on p2002 or tak if those servers had the same boxing policy as P99. I can almost guarantee 99% they would, get it?

Very much so. Ideally our awesome devs from p99 would find the money time and drive to create a new server progressing to pok or some shit... But if those other servers had a no-boxing policy, I would certainly be trying them out.

[Sancta]

But if those other servers had a no-boxing policy, I would certainly be trying them out.

I see this all the time, I personally would dive deep into takproject / p2002 if there was a no-boxing policy. Out of all things in EQ that ruined EQ for me was people boxing. No expansion came close to ruining the game like boxing did / does IMO.

[mr_jon3s]

I see this all the time, I personally would dive deep into takproject / p2002 if there was a no-boxing policy. Out of all things in EQ that ruined EQ for me was people boxing. No expansion came close to ruining the game like boxing did / does IMO.

I hate this answer. I would play but they have a boxing policy. I played on both servers and plenty of people that I talked to have told me the only reason they box is because the servers don't have the populations that you need to find a group right away. It's a huge catch-22 do I allow limited boxing and have people be able to do stuff or do I not and hope people stay around long enough for the population to grow.

[Rararboker]

Not really a catch 22. Just a dumb choice by their devs to allow it.

[Sarthas]

At some point it would be nice. The AA's, xtra class and race would add a lot to people who are bored and are eventually going to leave. If there was a server that had a decent pop and went up to luclin i wouldn't even be here.

[snergle]

At some point it would be nice. The AA's, xtra class and race would add a lot to people who are bored and are eventually going to leave. If there was a server that had a decent pop and went up to luclin i wouldn't even be here.

^ I dont care about boxing I care that it has red pop with boxing. tak needs a serious population increase.

[Muggens]

I remember feeling really sorry for my mates that wanted the AA points. Poor sods who wants em now...

[silo32]

red and blue both need 99's and maybe custome content or maybe just maybe go up to pop...

I have 13 60's on red all epics

and 7 60's on blue and same boat

with aa's I would be forced to pick a main or 2, so easy to roll a 60 epic alt when you have been playing p99 for 8 years

[Tewaz]

Except you can shakerpage on P2002/TAKP if they stay true to EQ Mac, which allowed you to do AA's at an INSANE rate.

[Haynar]

Except you can shakerpage on P2002/TAKP if they stay true to EQ Mac, which allowed you to do AA's at an INSANE rate.
Already voted down by staff on takp. No shakerpaging. Too game breaking.

P2002 is not following EQ Mac. They are just content up to and including PoP.

H

[Raev]

Well, to me the cool thing about Project 1999 is that after Velious is complete the staff have suggested custom content. Which means they are no longer bound by Verant's constant idiocy. What if the staff cherry-picked some of the better dungeons and raid encounters from future expansions (wouldn't even have to be Luclin/POP, they could go to Depths of Darkhallow or whatever other expansion). Retune them to a classic level of difficulty, but keep the bosses with multiple special abilities so it's not just tank and spank. Give them some sort of anti zerging code. Retune the gear to be just slightly better than classic (absolutely no more than 125 HP/slot, and that very rare). Keep a few pieces of gear with focus effects so that casters don't feel quite so fucked relative to melee candyland. Could be pretty awesome IMO, and much easier than the current zones because they wouldn't have to worry about slavishly copying every single thing.

But the other possibility is that Nilbog and Rogean and co are just tired are their tremendous exertions and after Velious finishes (so close! another 4-5 more patches) and everything is 100% fixed up they let the beta server (blue) and the sociopath server (red) die and launch Recycle99 which runs for a few years and then they just open source everything and walk off into the sunset!

[Tewaz]

Already voted down by staff on takp. No shakerpaging. Too game breaking.

P2002 is not following EQ Mac. They are just content up to and including PoP.

H

Good to know. That exploit made Chardok look like CB belts.

[Jauna]

The only thing I miss from Luclin was the increase to the amount of debuffs a target can have

[Swish]

Lost Dungeons of Norrath was best Norrath.

[Skinned]

The original and first two expansions were the Brad McQuaid era of Everquest, regarded as the classic era.

[Trollhide]

The original and first two expansions were the Brad McQuaid era of Everquest, regarded as the classic era.
¡Viva la Vision!

[Josa]

Yep, portal Books were the worst part. Basically people just ported to the best places to quickly level and ignore 80% of the world. That and the bazaar made most human to human interaction unnecessary. I really liked the newbie armor quests, since they filled the first levels with purpose.

[Brontus]

The answer to the future of P1999 is to intelligently expand. Take the good things from Shadows of Luclin, the Planes of Power and Legacy of Ykesha and remove the bad things.

For example, here's what could be removed:

-horrible Luclin character models
-bazaar
-Plane of Knowledge book portals

Problem solved.

There's an old saying: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Now if people want to continue to play the current server frozen (no pun intended) at Scars of Velious then let them. Let those that want P1999 and progress further play on a new server that expands. This way everyone is happy.

I appreciate that the developers and admins of P1999 want the purity of "classic EQ". I think that's a noble and worthwhile aspiration. However, I believe that classic look and feel can be maintained with this approach.

[fastboy21]

Nothing super new to add to a 15 year old conversation...

I'd say, in hindsight, that Luclin/PoP in some ways were the verdict of the decision the devs committed to taking the game: EQ became about pushing the end game content and emphasizing raid forces that needed to devote their existence to gearing up through tiered levels of available gear before moving on to the next rung of content...

Its true that Velious was also like this, but in Velious there was still a spirit of EQ that existed for most of the server that the game was about more than just replacing armor_piece_1 with armor_piece_2 ad infinum. The community was still exploring the game and enjoying the world.

Don't get me wrong, the raid content in those expansions (lucin and pop) was fun...it was what the raiders who had wet their teeth in kunark and velious had wanted EQ to be. The devs gave it to them. And the content was epic, better designed, and fun.

The tipping point, however, was crossed. And the mudflation geni was unleashed forever from its bottle. In hindsight, EQ should have stay small and focused on enhancing the world that already existed, i.e. "Sandbox" style mmo.

Luclin is actually my favorite expansion to play in...but it was entirely absorbed in raiding. Guild groups took on new meaning as you needed to group off raid time to build AA points, farm key bits, etc. It was the beginning of EQ just being about my guild and the raid schedule...instead of about the world we were in.

[fadetree]

I think PoP would be the perfect stopping point, maybe with some surgery to remove the easy travel and a few other things. But if I had to pick and choose, I'd say that AA should be implemented, as it was when first released. Obviously, part of my interest in that is the Ranger archery fix, but that's not the only reason, there's lots more in thread and Daldaen especially did a good job explaining.

Unless you've played a Ranger to a high level you probably don't understand what it's like to have your favorite class and playstyle essentially broken. That AA stuff finally made Rangers what they were supposed to be all along, without turning them OP.

[Josa]

I do wonder if they can't go past velious because of their agreement with daybreak. It would be cool just to add the best bits and pieces of the expansion as they can, without adding the community killing parts. Honestly though, if they complete the velious cycle, then start a fresh server to repeat it, like 3 year seasons, I think it would be best for everyone, since pixelquest would be moderated by the knowledge that everything will be gone by this or that date. People would just play the game for fun and a lot of the silly drama world die out imo.

[maskedmelon]

Lost Dungeons of Norrath was best Norrath.

I will concede that I had fun with that expansion. Though that is where I stopped.

[mr_jon3s]

getting your vex thal key and ssra keys, two horrible bottle necks id rather never have to endure again, compound with the sheer amount of 60s on this server trying for it.. terrible

VP key is worse.

[fastboy21]

VP key is worse.

I have always wondered why so many people are quick to hate on luclin for the vex thal key bits.

In many ways, kunark (VP -- bits and trak kill) was waaaay worse. and yet, kunark is hardly ever bemoaned as an expansion for this.