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Daldaen
04-11-2016, 08:27 PM
A few questions:

Cekenar spawns, Awakened wins a foot race and has 60 minutes to kill him. Lets say Lord Koi'Doken spawns while we are moving to Cekenar. Can we acquire FTE on Lord Koi'Doken and /shout "Awakened Concedes Cekenar in favor of Lord Koi'Doken". Allowing any other guild to at that point then run up from entrance and FTE Cekenar and replace our attempt.

Is this an allowable practice or are you locking us into the one mob we FTE even if mobs we favor are in window as well?

I assume all FTEers must start at the door/entrance in ToV and the ice/dirt interchange in Kael?

I assume if another mob spawns while you're fighting Vulak, the guild fighting Vulak will inevitably get FTE on those extra dragons. A guild must be given the ability to concede said dragons without penalty.

If a guild fails to kill the mob within 60 minutes, is the mob then FFA and the zone specific rules don't apply anymore? Or does the next FTEer get FTE and then they have a 60 minutes.

If a guild fails to kill the mob within 60 minutes, how long must they wait to acquire another FTE and make another attempt at the target?

Can raid guilds camp at anywhere in the zone and compete for any target (IE can you camp out in NToV and contest Triplets) assuming that your FTE runners are starting from the zoneline?

bktroost
04-11-2016, 08:42 PM
I saw no change to the raid vicinity rule and they are still active in the rule post as of yet.

This should answer all of your questions unless he changes the rule. If you are fighting up to cekenar and another dragon spawns you concede that new dragon according to the current rules because you were past zone line when it popped.

Sirken
04-11-2016, 08:45 PM
1) as of right now, you are locked in to what you kill for 60 min, or until it's dead. i see your point and you aren't the first person to raise this concern. Staff will discuss it, and if needed we'll add wording to allow a FTE'd target to be dropped in favor of a different target.

2) id say anywhere in the zonein room of ToV is fine. feel free to work out the exact spot with your fellow players. as for Kael, the ice/dirt interchange is fair imo.

3) agreed, and the staff will accept the concession in place of a raid suspension, just take to SS of the concession as proof should you be petitioned.

4) the guild has 60 min to engage the raid target. if they wipe, or exceed the 60 min limit on engaging, the raid target then becomes FFA and these footrace rules do not apply.

5) a guild is free to FTE another raid target as soon as they kill the mob they FTE'd, or as soon as 60 min has expired. if a guild wipes, the raid target then becomes FFA and these footrace rules do not apply.

6) as mentioned in the thread, the ToV/Kael rules are in addition to the other server rules. so not, you still can not camp out players in the vicinity of raid targets.

arsenalpow
04-11-2016, 08:50 PM
Might want to add that "when a guild wipes it's FFA" addendum to the rules as you just said that here and it wasn't reflected originally.

Daldaen
04-11-2016, 08:51 PM
6. We can have trackers camped near the targets of course though? Up to two players. Because we would often camp out trackers and killa mob and relog trackers back in etc.

Anichek
04-11-2016, 09:12 PM
1) as of right now, you are locked in to what you kill for 60 min, or until it's dead. i see your point and you aren't the first person to raise this concern. Staff will discuss it, and if needed we'll add wording to allow a FTE'd target to be dropped in favor of a different target.

Makes sense, in reality, as long as they announce they are dropping FTE - and not abused as a stall. Securing 1 mob and then calling out you are dropping it to insta-engage another means you stalled the first mob up to 1 hour.

Kill it, or let your hour burn, or wipe to it. If you don't really want it, and wished it was a different mob, maybe don't tie your FTE up on the one you do not really want?

I can see both sides - forfeiing to move on, or being held to kill what you claim (or at least try to)....just tough to close the abuse gap on the FTE forfeit loophole turning into a 100% stall tactic when windows are close together. Willing to let it run and see how it plays out, though!

Pint
04-11-2016, 09:36 PM
What if you have FTE on Statue but vindi is in your way, or any combination of ToV dragons in each others paths. Is it just understood that youre not intentionally fte'ing the mob in the way of your FTE'd mob? Should we just go about our business and then concede the mob that had to be illegally FTE'd bc it was in the way of the target mob?

Can we still kill at the zone in if everyone's FTE'ers are at the zone in? Is this illegal since everyone's racers will be at the zone in or is it just understood that if you pull a mob to the zone in and wipe then you concede that mob? Curious about this in relation to normal windows but also earthquakes where no guild will want to waste an FTE on killing LTK in order to be able to pull there.

bktroost
04-12-2016, 12:40 AM
Fight to the mobs seems to be the cleanest solution. You lose your fte if you fte another mob along the way with how it is written.

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 12:56 AM
Statue FTE just became immensely more interesting.

Breaken
04-12-2016, 07:56 AM
The rule specifically mentions:

"All Temple of Veeshan raid targets as well as King Tormax / Statue"

I would believe getting FTE on Derakor does not play a role in this.

Culkasi
04-12-2016, 08:05 AM
The rule specifically mentions:

"All Temple of Veeshan raid targets as well as King Tormax / Statue"

I would believe getting FTE on Derakor does not play a role in this.

I tend to agree - again, its about the intent, not rules lawyering - in the grand scheme of things, every one of us is going to allow someone else to kill Vindi while we focus on Statue.

Breaken
04-12-2016, 08:16 AM
If you are implying the same rules might apply in ToV, I believe you are incorrect.

The intent of the rule is that, for ToV specifically, when more than one mob is up (like a repop) you have to "clear" in. If a guild wants to get Vulak, they cannot simply .. run / FD / DA up through other named, getting agro on all of them, and finally FTE Vulak. If you agro Aaryonar, you have to kill him. The next guild would wind up agroing one of the named on either left or right side. Then, most likely, the guild that killed Aary (or a 3rd guild) will pull the next mob on that path. Then the next.. until a path is cleared.

Culkasi
04-12-2016, 08:19 AM
If you are implying the same rules might apply in ToV, I believe you are incorrect.

The intent of the rule is that, for ToV specifically, when more than one mob is up (like a repop) you have to "clear" in. If a guild wants to get Vulak, they cannot simply .. run / FD / DA up through other named, getting agro on all of them, and finally FTE Vulak. If you agro Aaryonar, you have to kill him. The next guild would wind up agroing one of the named on either left or right side. Then, most likely, the guild that killed Aary (or a 3rd guild) will pull the next mob on that path. Then the next.. until a path is cleared.

I am not, I am saying that, for the purposes of the discussions here, I think we can all agree that Vindi is irrelevant and not rules lawyer about it. Anyone who can realistically kill Statue don't mind that 1 Vindi every 5 days, so lets just call it irrelevant. ToV is a very different discussion all together, I agree - and I really like the picture you are painting of that btw, that sounds like a fun and exciting ToV that resembles my classic experience a lot.

Breaken
04-12-2016, 08:24 AM
I think for a server repop it sounds interesting. For normal spawns, it will not be. This forces more trackers and screen sharing. Also, limiting to SoW now gives Bind Sight the advantage, mainly for Kael, East ToV, West ToV, and the first few North mobs.

Kileras
04-12-2016, 10:30 AM
i am assuming once FTE is secure there will be a reset and train/up/down to bring the mob to entrance, which means everyone else needs to vacate or move their racers or else they die.

if you train another guilds racer ( if a second pop) while you are training up/down to pull your mob to entrance i imagine thats a training violation and raid ban?

the spirit of the rule seems to be that you would clear to the mob, but i imagine since that isn't clearly stated there will be a footrace for fte, reset, and then traditional train up/down. lets discuss that here now instead of keeping our plans secret on how people plan to circumvent the spirit of the rule.

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 10:43 AM
All of the rules posted are what you must do until FTE goes out. Once FTE goes out you may pull or kill your target however you wish.

To be honest, racers need to remove train from their vocabulary until FTE goes out. Once you pass the North door and reach Aaryonar stairs... Everything is KoS, everything casts AEs, everything can kill every player. Hide/Sneaks will break, FDs will be broken and people will die. No one should be responsible for what happens to other racers during the race. It's way too much of a cluster.

If a guild does a pull on their mob while racers are coming up, a very unique set of circumstances would need to occur for racers to get trained. Usually you will have no aggro and you'll run through their train up or down. Only when the train is dropped will there be issues I think. Again, once you're past that North door anything should go because trying to legislate who was in the wrong up there is going to be a nightmare. Monks FDing will always drop mobs and they will aggro other racers... Not really the monks fault for using the FD ability.

bktroost
04-12-2016, 11:01 AM
All of the rules posted are what you must do until FTE goes out. Once FTE goes out you may pull or kill your target however you wish.

To be honest, racers need to remove train from their vocabulary until FTE goes out. Once you pass the North door and reach Aaryonar stairs... Everything is KoS, everything casts AEs, everything can kill every player. Hide/Sneaks will break, FDs will be broken and people will die. No one should be responsible for what happens to other racers during the race. It's way too much of a cluster.

If a guild does a pull on their mob while racers are coming up, a very unique set of circumstances would need to occur for racers to get trained. Usually you will have no aggro and you'll run through their train up or down. Only when the train is dropped will there be issues I think. Again, once you're past that North door anything should go because trying to legislate who was in the wrong up there is going to be a nightmare. Monks FDing will always drop mobs and they will aggro other racers... Not really the monks fault for using the FD ability.


There's and Active and a Stasis issue with pulling to entrance.

The Stasis Issue is that Guild A pulls Zlexak to entrance to kill him and Guild B's racers are waiting for a Dagarn pop. Well since Guild B's racers cannot be outside of entrance and Zlexak's aoe hits the room then Guild B's racers are going to die. That's raid interference and a problem for guild B at the fault of guild A. Killing at entrance poses some real issues for this new ruleset for a racer of an opposing guild as they wait for mobs to pop.


The Active Issue with pulling to entrance here is the circumstance when guild A pulls Cekenar to entrance and guild B is waiting with racers at entrance for sisters or Vulak or Lord fishy to pop. Guild A pulls Cekenar and Lord fishy pops. Guild B sends out racers and the racers cross your train at 4 way. Guild A pulls Cekenar out and as the train is pathing back they eat the racers from Guild B before they even make it to north.

arsenalpow
04-12-2016, 11:07 AM
Yes, it's going to be a clusterfuck, the likes of which have never been seen before. Feelings will be hurt, zones will desync, tears will be shed.

Classic Everquest raiding on P99, catch the fever.

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 11:09 AM
That's a very narrow set of circumstances. It takes less than 1 minute to run from entrance to Aaryonar stairs.

In that one minute a guild must have a train perfectly timed and dropped and the spawns of two targets must have lined up to cause that.

I do see the issues you're talking about, but the window of opportunity for them to arise are very limited.

Honestly once a mob is up and racers leave the room there should be no train rules to limit the rule lawyering that will occur. I can't wait for the first concession call when a monk FDs some mobs that then aggro another racer literally right next to him.

----

Also it wasn't addressed... I'd imagine an alliance will share the same 60-min lockout timer while their mob is still alive.

Guild A and B raid together for Mob X when Guild A got FTE... This will mean that Guild B cannot run up and secure another FTE on Mob Y, correct? Atleast until Mob X is dead.

Kileras
04-12-2016, 11:14 AM
so for a realistic and basic situation...

if you pull your mobs to entrance and the AoE kills my racers what are we supposed to do? Keep people logged in to heal our racers so we can maintain on the line in case of a pop? log out?

multiple mobs not on a quake happening at the same time will be rare but bringing mobs to entrance to AoE the rest of the racers will be an issues. Maybe this didn't happen with the two guild system since entrance/west was split, but how do we handle it now with potentially 3 more guilds in there?

Detoxx
04-12-2016, 11:21 AM
Simple solution would be to either agree to start races from the bottom of the entrance stairs either all the time or while a mob is being killed.

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 11:21 AM
The same thing the guild who kills the mob does with their clerics. There are two safe corners where you can avoid all AEs on a clean kill.

Alternatively, you can push for the entrance pulling to be banned, which I can understand but all that's gonna do is push everyone to LTK for desynch fun.

Or move the starting line up. But if you move it up further on dirty pulls guilds have KoS mobs dropped in entry hallway rarely which you would aggro on occasion.

arsenalpow
04-12-2016, 11:29 AM
Realistically there's just going to be a massive desync wherever the raids decide to pile up. Let's assume all parties decide to take a crack at this. You'll have Awakened, Aftermath, BDA, CSG, and Div/Anon. Awakened runs like 70-80, Aftermath is up to 120 sometimes, we're 50-60, CSG is almost 100 sometimes, and I'm sure Div/Anon can easily push 60-70 or more.

There's only two "safe places" to pull to assuming you want to kill NToV dragons which are the entrance and West exit. Pulling to the entrance can possibly kill all the racers. Pulling west is probably better but it still puts multiple guilds on top of each other. Plus coordinating train ups and train downs for a pull when racers could start running should something else pop is going to be frustrating.

Nothing will change for Awakened/Aftermath. They'll want to kill things immediately after pop because they don't want to be tied down to a mob. They'll want to get it dead to make sure they're ready for the next kill. Things will be sketchy when a casual guild gets an FTE and decides to clear to something thus making train pulls problematic.

I can appreciate that the staff took some initiative and proposed something, but I don't think this was thought out. Maybe it can play out better than the nightmare scenarios I'm imagining, but what's likely to happen is someone is going to get trained or killed or they're going to lose a race to some bullshit tactic and people will refuse to deal with this ruleset too.

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 12:41 PM
When a dragon in VP spawns, anyone past the VP entrance Blue Pad may not assist their guild in any way. If another dragon spawns while the first one is still alive, this rule becomes void only to the players who were at the zone in pad before the first dragon spawned

Can we modify this rule to work in ToV?

If your racers are out and about going after any dragon spawns, when a second spawn, they should be able to FTE that second dragon if they wish (assuming the first hasn't been FTE'd by them yet) because they were beyond zoneline for the first spawn.

Detoxx
04-12-2016, 01:35 PM
That cannot happen. Ive seen you guys abuse this rule by leaving up a dragon in VP and jav spamming at PD spawn point. Too much room for abuse and will completely negate the rule just implemented.

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 01:36 PM
That cannot happen. Ive seen you guys abuse this rule by leaving up a dragon in VP and jav spamming at PD spawn point. Too much room for abuse and will completely negate the rule just implemented.

So basically if you're racing for a mob every racer is disqualified when another mob spawns?

The rule makes a lot of sense because once anyone's FTE goes out the rule is void and people need to get back to zoneline to race. It's no longer important for the mob to be killed, just for a guild to acquire FTE, staking a claim to it.

Detoxx
04-12-2016, 01:47 PM
If there is a sidenote of not abusing it by leaving up a dragon to stand on another dragons spawn point im fine with it. This will also bring up the issue of always leaving up Sevalak and just not racing for any mobs at all anymore.

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 01:50 PM
That's a fair point. But with this rule also comes more competition Detoxx. Our guilds may have no interest in engaging Sevalak quickly. Another newly competing ToV guild may however. This is yet to be seen however.

I'm fine with something removing the loophole, sure. But I don't think guilds running after say... Koi Doken, should suddenly be DQ'd from breaking off for Lady M if she spawns during the run up.

Pint
04-12-2016, 01:51 PM
The rule specifically mentions:

"All Temple of Veeshan raid targets as well as King Tormax / Statue"

I would believe getting FTE on Derakor does not play a role in this.

Makes sense to me but what about tov? Are we just conceding mobs to each other if they spawn in the path of the mob we've secured fte on?

Nvm missed last two pages

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 01:53 PM
I believe that's what is going to have to happen Pint. I don't see much other way around it.

Pint
04-12-2016, 02:26 PM
Are we agreeing that the gloves are off past the north door? What are we doing about calling raid violations past that point?

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 02:42 PM
With no FTE out, beyond the North Door there shouldn't be any calls for concede, trains, etc.

AEs will go off
Hides will be broken
FDs will be broken
People will die

Trying to determine Blame will not be reliable at all.

I hope everyone can agree to this.

arsenalpow
04-12-2016, 02:50 PM
With no FTE out, beyond the North Door there shouldn't be any calls for concede, trains, etc.

AEs will go off
Hides will be broken
FDs will be broken
People will die

Trying to determine Blame will not be reliable at all.

I hope everyone can agree to this.

Long as shit isn't malicious I don't see there being too much complaining, but if there's fraps of some monk purposefully aggroing and snuggling up next to rogues to break hides there will be problems.

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 03:04 PM
Monks will be dropping aggro they get and rogues/monks will be intermingled. I think it will be very hard to determine what hide breaks are caused from malicious monk trains and just monks dropping down to avoid melee hits themselves.

Detoxx
04-12-2016, 03:22 PM
Long as shit isn't malicious I don't see there being too much complaining, but if there's fraps of some monk purposefully aggroing and snuggling up next to rogues to break hides there will be problems.

It will happen. Will it look malicious? Yep. Will it be malicious? Probably not.

Pint
04-12-2016, 03:55 PM
I just dont think you are going to be able to differentiate between malicious and not malicious. If you're a monk and you need to fd are you going to stop and look around to make sure its safe or are you just going to fd? If a rogue is sneaking past a mob I front of you are you going to hesitate to sprint past him BC that drake in front of him is going to aoe both of you? If there are 8 drakes flapping around how will you know which one will aoe when? Every racer will have their own fraps that they can point to to show foul play but who is going to comb and rule on the 15 different fraps from every race? It sure as shit wont be sirken.

Have the casual guilds given consideration to the fact that all the aftermath and awakened racers will zone right back into tov, get a corpse summon, snag some buffs and run right back into the fray? I imagine most casual racers will end up dead standing around in places like Kael and skyshrine.

bktroost
04-12-2016, 04:48 PM
Are we agreeing that the gloves are off past the north door? What are we doing about calling raid violations past that point?

If you are talking specifically about racers then I can see that making sense.

If you are talking about training a guild that is fighting to a mob like Dagarn and your racer training them trying to get to triplets then no, I do not agree to that. Especially with a 60 minute timer to fight your way to that mob. Part of sharing the zone is not training another guilds raid, maliciously or not maliciously.

Pint
04-12-2016, 06:32 PM
If you are talking specifically about racers then I can see that making sense.

If you are talking about training a guild that is fighting to a mob like Dagarn and your racer training them trying to get to triplets then no, I do not agree to that. Especially with a 60 minute timer to fight your way to that mob. Part of sharing the zone is not training another guilds raid, maliciously or not maliciously.

no im just referring to racer on racer issues beyond the north door. any guild that gets run over while inside north has a right to file a complaint.

bktroost
04-12-2016, 08:26 PM
Oh, I'd also like to suggest a similar approach to Sontalak that we took to Vindi. On a repop I can see that being a problem.

Pint
04-12-2016, 09:11 PM
Oh, I'd also like to suggest a similar approach to Sontalak that we took to Vindi. On a repop I can see that being a problem.

aftermath will not be hassling anyone over sontalak ftes

Daldaen
04-12-2016, 09:17 PM
Nor should anyone. Sontalak and Vindicator aren't listed explicitly in the rules.

ToV + Statue + Tormax are the only mobs listed and the only ones to which these rules are applicable.

phiren
04-13-2016, 11:44 AM
I think we can agree all racers need to be guild tagged and NOT /anon (/role is fine if you must).

I haven't seen this come up in a while, but I remember an unguilded TMO person snatching up FTEs on Kunark mobs and TMO promptly claiming he was one of theirs. Though I'm sure he was, it still seems sketchy for /anon and unguilded chars to get FTE?

It's hard to imagine a racer NOT being guilded, but I would like to throw that out there before someone tries to do it and cause confusion & jimmyrustling.

If someone from Dial-A-Port snatches up FTE for fun and legally, I would suggest that Dial-A-Port has FTE for 60 minutes.

What to do when some Kael group with no ambitions, total accident, chain aggros and gets FTE before the racers get there?

It's easy to look BACK on the situation later. But the racers are still going to be racing. You guys should have enough data to determine how long it takes for someone to get FTE. IE: in Kael if anyone gets FTE under 34 seconds, it's obviously a bogus FTE, and the racers should still continue. The first FTE after the 34 second mark would seem like the legal one that all guilds should respect.

When in doubt -- I would say your racers should always continue their race and snatch up an FTE so it's registered and seen. We will have some time to figure out what happened and if the first FTE was bogus.

~Phiren
Azure Guard

Daldaen
04-13-2016, 11:53 AM
So to clarify:

When a guild wipes to Target X, the mob is now FFA and they are free to engage another mob before their 60 minute timer is up.

The mob becoming FFA was stated by Sirken but it was also said that the guild acquiring FTE is locked into that mob for 60 minutes until time expires or the mob dies... It doesn't mention the guild dying.

Common sense would dictate a wipe causing the mob to become FFA clears them of their 60 minute FTE limit I think... But just to be safe I'll ask here.

Pint
04-13-2016, 12:00 PM
the rule seems pretty clear in stating: "A guild may not FTE any other raid target until their FTE’d target is either Dead, or the 60 minutes is up." being able to intentionally throw a kill or pull it to camp and let it eat a few people then zone out would be pretty blatant manipulation of the rule. just dont race for a mob you arnt wild about killing.

i also dont know that guilded vs unguilded matters, the person will say who he fte'd for and since the pulls arnt instant there will be time to sort things out. if dial a port fte's a mob then allows aftermath or anonymous or anyone to kill it for them, that isnt really any different then azure guard fte'ing a mob and getting europa and omni to kill it for them.

Daldaen
04-13-2016, 12:04 PM
The rule didn't state the mob became FFA after a wipe until Sirken clarified though. Just seeking a little clarification.

Indeed though, you could throw a kill to clear yourself of the FTE you're locked in. But on the other hand a guild could just stall kill a mob FFA that you wiped to keeping you locked in for a very long time as well.

I really don't like the being locked in and not being able to concede a target if you so choose because of these things.

phiren
04-13-2016, 12:10 PM
I just don't know any other simple way to police the issue other than Sirken's original rule:
When you FTE a mob, you are locked in for 60 minutes or until it's dead.

All this 'concede' stuff to go after other targets is just going to cause way too much confusion. I like the idea of having guilds gamble. If Mob A pops, but you really don't want it because Mob B is juicier... then that's the risk you run.

This is a "new raid scene" IMO. I personally like the rules. It's very very very simple and clear to me.

Allowing guilds to concede, back-out, or purposely wipe, just opens the door for tons of drama, which I thought we are trying to get out of.

~Phiren
Azure Guard

Daldaen
04-13-2016, 12:18 PM
If that's the case then wiping shouldn't cause the mob to FFA I would think then?

Being locked in on a mob that turns FFA and another guild engages makes 0 sense to me.

Either after a wipe you need to be unlocked and it how FFA or after a wipe you remain locked and the mob remains your FTE until the timer expires.

Pint
04-13-2016, 12:23 PM
i think the rules are designed to give you 1 chance at your mob without getting hassled and in return for that one chance you lock yourself out of the rest of the scene for an hour or until you kill your mob. im not saying i agree with the rule but i do think its intentionally designed to factor in risk vs reward.

i think these rules are very good earthquake rules and will distribute the kills more evenly in those situations, but for standard cycles they require significantly more effort and are in practice a complete mess. i dont think a casual guild got a single target this cycle so it still all went to awakened and aftermath.

Daldaen
04-13-2016, 12:29 PM
I fully understand the purpose of the rules and I also don't like them, but we will live with them.

I just don't understand how you can still be locked into a mob after it has become FFA and another guild could pull it and THEN race for another mob and lock themselves into that while they're killing the FFA mob in camp. Seems a bit backwards is all.

Honestly though, I think the reason all of the kills went to Awakened/Aftermath more is in favor of the spawn times rather than anything else. Having gotten home at 8PM and slept at around Midnight, the only targets that spawned while I was there were Lady M and Dain. Everything else spawned very late/early AM which most guilds don't bother contesting during those hours.

A repop on a Saturday afternoon resetting all timers to the middle of a weekend would give a far better indicator next spawn cycle on where mob distribution falls. As long as it's middle of the night in the middle of the week, I don't see mob distribution changing.

phiren
04-13-2016, 12:32 PM
If that's the case then wiping shouldn't cause the mob to FFA I would think then?

Being locked in on a mob that turns FFA and another guild engages makes 0 sense to me.

Either after a wipe you need to be unlocked and it how FFA or after a wipe you remain locked and the mob remains your FTE until the timer expires.

I really do agree with your way of thinking here, but I don't know where you are getting the "mob turns FFA after wipe" rule from, and maybe I'm missing something or interpreting the rule differently.

You have 60 minutes.

The way I interpret the rules is that wiping has 0 impact on anything. You still have 60 minutes from your FTE call.

It's obvious if you wipe at 45 minutes, you can't do it.
If you wipe at 30 minutes, maybe you still can.
If you wipe at 35 minutes... maybe you still can.

Where is the line, but more importantly, where is this even written?


~Phiren
Azure Guard

Daldaen
04-13-2016, 12:35 PM
I really do agree with your way of thinking here, but I don't know where you are getting the "mob turns FFA after wipe" rule from, and maybe I'm missing something or interpreting the rule differently.

You have 60 minutes.

The way I interpret the rules is that wiping has 0 impact on anything. You still have 60 minutes from your FTE call.

It's obvious if you wipe at 45 minutes, you can't do it.
If you wipe at 30 minutes, maybe you still can.
If you wipe at 35 minutes... maybe you still can.

Where is the line, but more importantly, where is this even written?


~Phiren
Azure Guard

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2238626&postcount=3

Sirken's own post in this thread. That's where my confusion stems. I understand sort of the idea behind the FFA thing but I don't understand it if the guild wiping is still locked in. If you're still locked in, it should still be your mob. It would put a much larger cost on gambling with a mob you don't know whether you can kill or not.

1) as of right now, you are locked in to what you kill for 60 min, or until it's dead. i see your point and you aren't the first person to raise this concern. Staff will discuss it, and if needed we'll add wording to allow a FTE'd target to be dropped in favor of a different target.

2) id say anywhere in the zonein room of ToV is fine. feel free to work out the exact spot with your fellow players. as for Kael, the ice/dirt interchange is fair imo.

3) agreed, and the staff will accept the concession in place of a raid suspension, just take to SS of the concession as proof should you be petitioned.

4) the guild has 60 min to engage the raid target. if they wipe, or exceed the 60 min limit on engaging, the raid target then becomes FFA and these footrace rules do not apply.

5) a guild is free to FTE another raid target as soon as they kill the mob they FTE'd, or as soon as 60 min has expired. if a guild wipes, the raid target then becomes FFA and these footrace rules do not apply.

6) as mentioned in the thread, the ToV/Kael rules are in addition to the other server rules. so not, you still can not camp out players in the vicinity of raid targets.

So if you get really lawyerquesty you could say the red indicates all the FTE 60-min, locked in stuff goes out the window depending on how you interpret it. Or just the no CotH, Gate, Shadowstep to acquire FTE goes out the window. I dunno, I'm not a young lawyer.

phiren
04-13-2016, 12:37 PM
Never mind -- I see Sirken's amendments posted back on page 1 of this thread.

I still don't know why this amendment is necessary though. It was so simple and easy as it was originally stated.

If my guild gets FTE and 'wipes' after 5 minutes because we trained ourselves, or it was an accidental train ... I don't really understand the logic in saying the mob is now FFA.

Again -- the rule was beautiful as it was originally written. It is now complicated and I see your point.

~Phiren
Azure Guard

phiren
04-13-2016, 12:40 PM
So then, let's define a wipe so it's black and white.

If 10+ people from your guild die, that is a wipe.

If 9 or less people from your guild die, but the other 50+ manage to camp out safely... this is not a wipe.

Boom! done! Now we get to count corpses too!

:)

~Phiren
Azure Guard

Pint
04-13-2016, 02:42 PM
if you pull a mob into camp and it leaves your camp still breathing then you failed, pretty simple hehe. aborting a kill is equivalent with wiping.

getting FTE gives you an attempt at the mob and 60 minutes to prepare that attempt, it doesnt give you an hour of unlimited attempts, that would be silly.

Culkasi
04-13-2016, 03:02 PM
I dont think a casual guild got a single target this cycle so it still all went to awakened and aftermath.

Like Daldaen said, pretty crappy window, and we also wanted to observe for a cycle before we decided what to do.
I can see us picking partial windows of some mobs next week and give it a shot. We are not going to contest 30 mobs because we don't really want to kill 30 mobs, so we'll pick our spots and see how it goes and learn from it. Looking forward to race a bit in ToV myself :)

And as someone else said, lets get all mobs back on the same timers, this thing with earthquake resetting some timers and not others is a mess.

Pint
04-13-2016, 03:07 PM
i mean all of ToV was in window during prime time in the evening, idk how much better it can get than that. it was like 17 simultaneous mobs.

Daldaen
04-13-2016, 03:10 PM
For EST guilds, you're right Pint! But many guilds operate outside of that timeslot.

And of the 19~ hour window which started around 4PM... From 4PM to Midnight only.. I think 4? Raid targets of the 17 in window spawned. Nearly half the window and only a quarter of the target spawned during it. Bad luck.

Pint
04-13-2016, 03:57 PM
yea but you cant gauge how good a window is on when the mob finally pops, a big chunk of the windows fell into good time slots for pst, cst and est.

Kileras
04-13-2016, 06:00 PM
anonymous/divinity raced on 4 mobs and were close enough on most of them to be there next week.

Pan
04-13-2016, 06:55 PM
i mean all of ToV was in window during prime time in the evening, idk how much better it can get than that. it was like 17 simultaneous mobs.

Two things:

1) We chose to do our first ringwar at 11am US eastern (prep at 10). That should tell you something about our wheelhouse hours when we an field a legit mate force.

2) Although it might be hard for some to believe, we've really got to pick our windows. We only have so many cycles to burn on EQ. For most in CSG, EQ is entertainment/recreation that really has to take a backseat to family and other obligations. And I'm not saying that's not true of other guilds. But we seem to recruit the people who have less time to devote. Those with more and who are configured differently end up in the more 24/7 guilds.

phiren
04-13-2016, 08:26 PM
if you pull a mob into camp and it leaves your camp still breathing then you failed, pretty simple hehe. aborting a kill is equivalent with wiping.

getting FTE gives you an attempt at the mob and 60 minutes to prepare that attempt, it doesnt give you an hour of unlimited attempts, that would be silly.


I'm not TRYING to be difficult here .. but I assure you this will happen:
Guild A gets FTE on mob and has an hour. 10-15 minutes in as they are positioning for it, they get a semi bad pull, or someone trains them. This pull/train doesn't even include the mob they are going after and have their 60 minute FTE on. Dozens will die, the rest will camp out to clear aggro.

Did Guild A just wipe?

~Phiren
Azure Guard

Pint
04-14-2016, 02:02 PM
I'm not TRYING to be difficult here .. but I assure you this will happen:
Guild A gets FTE on mob and has an hour. 10-15 minutes in as they are positioning for it, they get a semi bad pull, or someone trains them. This pull/train doesn't even include the mob they are going after and have their 60 minute FTE on. Dozens will die, the rest will camp out to clear aggro.

Did Guild A just wipe?

~Phiren
Azure Guard

Did the dragon come in with the pull and kill people? Botching your pull is a form of wiping. If you just wipe to trash mobs then youre fine but if you attempt to pull a dragon and train yourself in the process whether or not youre at west exit or inside ntov, you've wiped yourself and forfeited your attempt imo.

arsenalpow
04-14-2016, 02:08 PM
Which is why Sirken tacking on "one attempt" is stupid, because now we get to define what constitutes a wipe. Just make it a flat 60 minutes, easy peasy.

Katpal
04-14-2016, 02:15 PM
I would like to see a guild be able to take 60 minutes to kill a dragon if they need it, even if they wipe a time or two.

The rules don't specifically state 1 attempt, it says engage and kill. I won't rules lawyer though, I know the previous thread where the racing rule was first introduced said 1 attempt, so I assume that to be the case here as well.

I don't think it's too much to ask for a review though - for those learning new encounters to be given full use of their 60 minutes should they win a race.

And if you think about the openness of the rule, I don't see why we couldn't all agree to allow that anyway.

phiren
04-14-2016, 02:53 PM
Azure Guard is behind the "Your mob for 60 minutes, do whatever you want". It's very easy to police this ourselves, as opposed to telling another guild "We checked with our legal team, and WE decided that your guild wiped, so the mob is now FFA, good try though".

~Phiren

Pint
04-14-2016, 06:21 PM
You guys were given a full hour to prepare and execute your attempts by the staff and you're already asking for more despite the fact that none of you have even given the new concessions a real chance... You should at least feel obligated to attempt the new system before you start asking for more. Defining a wipe is very straight forward, if a dragon finds it way intl your camp alive and then leaves your camp alive then you have failed. Where is the wiggle room to lawyer? If you don't think you can execute a pull then go clear to your dragon just like you advocated for initially. Its what you wanted and the staff made it possible for you.

phiren
04-15-2016, 08:13 AM
You guys were given a full hour to prepare and execute your attempts by the staff and you're already asking for more

No one is asking for more here actually. Quite a few of us agree that the *original rule* made was very simple:

~~~~~~~~~~
All Temple of Veeshan raid targets as well as King Tormax / Statue, are now foot race FTEs from the zone lines. If your guild gets FTE on a target, then your guild will be given a 60minute grace period to engage and kill the mob, allowing them a fair and legitimate chance at that target. A guild may not FTE any other raid target until their FTE’d target is either Dead, or the 60 minutes is up.
~~~~~~~~

We are technically asking for less here. We don't like the amendments that were added after the fact. They took an extremely simple and basic concept and opened up the door for rule lawyering and confusion.

But until Sirken clarifies some of the amendments for us, it is what it is.

ToV is still a cluster. When Guild C accidentally trains Aftermath as you are fighting Mob X, we are saying that Aftermath should still be entitled to Mob X. However, with your own definition of the rule, Aftermath wiped and the mob is now FFA. You will lose mob X to guilds A, B, or D. It doesn't matter that you got trained by Guild C, you can petition the other guild later. It won't help you with Mob X loot, which will go legally to A B or D. You just now lost Mob X because you wiped, plain and simple. Mob X is now FFA.

Now -- if you had 60 minutes for Mob X -- you wouldn't even need to petition anyone. You could even laugh about getting trained instead of raging. Mob X is still yours. You just rezz up and do it again.


~Phiren
Azure Guard

Kileras
04-15-2016, 10:27 AM
i dont see this being an issue in Kael, but judging by how things go in ToV it is going to be a bit of a mess. The first time one of us non super experienced guilds snipe an FTE, there is going to be quite the uproar over us getting the mob cleared and out of camps ASAP so others can be ready to kill their mob and move to the next one. I highly doubt anyone is going to stand for more than one real attempt at bringing a mob into camp.

bktroost
04-15-2016, 10:50 AM
I think the nightmare scenario that Phiren is expressing here is when CSG goes for a mob and Anon trains near us pulling another mob and we wipe to their backwash. Is that our wipe and now the mob is FFA? Maybe not because the dragon wasn't in our camp. So then what happens when we pull a dragon into our camp and the backwash from at train comes back and hits us while we are fighting a dragon. We wipe to that dragon but by no fault of our guild.

Those are some questions that do need agreed on. Certainly if it was Anon that trained us they can concede, but Divinity can now FTE and kill our dragon because we "wiped". There is wiggle room for abuse here.

Pint
04-15-2016, 02:07 PM
If another guild trains you then it is obviously on them to concede their mob and it only affects you in that your timer is still ticking. We told you that you were in over your heads wanting to clear into tov, you take on the risks involved in clearing in there when you decide to do it. Everyone in the sub forum knows what a wipe is and when it is and isn't their own fault, pretending like you don't just to squeeze out a more favorable position for yourself is laughable. Tov is a difficult zone to navigate and succeed in, youre going to fail at first and learn from those failures, just keep trying until you get better like the rest of us did.

bktroost
04-15-2016, 02:17 PM
If another guild trains you then it is obviously on them to concede their mob and it only affects you in that your timer is still ticking. We told you that you were in over your heads wanting to clear into tov, you take on the risks involved in clearing in there when you decide to do it. Everyone in the sub forum knows what a wipe is and when it is and isn't their own fault, pretending like you don't just to squeeze out a more favorable position for yourself is laughable. Tov is a difficult zone to navigate and succeed in, youre going to fail at first and learn from those failures, just keep trying until you get better like the rest of us did.

You're inflating our posts because they are causing us to look at unfavorable outcomes. It was you that told us to examine every angle.

Pint, do you want me to examine every angle or just throw ourselves in and worry about problems after they happen? I was an advocate for the latter and you convinced me to the former. Now the roles are reversed.

Culkasi
04-15-2016, 03:13 PM
Wow, this thread is horrible, start to end. I am speechless really.

The idea was to make stuff less contentious and stupid, but for some reason we've now spent a week discussing stupid rules and what the line is and who gets to cross it and under what circumstances.

Could we try for a cycle just to agree not to be assholes for pixels, and see where that brought us?

None of us NEEEEED the pixels bad enough for this. None of us.

Pint
04-17-2016, 10:40 AM
None of us NEEEEED the pixels bad enough for this. None of us.

then dont show up?

if a dragon walk into your camp and then walks out, then you failed to kill said dragon. that is a wipe. what about this is confusing or unclear?

the things that you need easy definable rules on are stalls and kites because there can be wiggle room here. there is no wiggle room on what a wipe is, everyone knows when they attempted something and failed to succeed.

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 10:30 AM
So the repop brought to light a few issues.

Primarily, when a guild is locked into their one target, what is the acceptable procedure to follow through for any other FTEs that may occur while your locked target is still alive.

For example we pulled Lord Koi Doken (first FTE) and his pull incidentally aggroed Lord Vyemm (who we conceded) and we had a miscommunication that led to a monk aggroing Lady M (who we also conceded). Neither of those targets were pulled or even touched beyond the pull to get Lord Koi Doken into camp.

In my mind, once you're locked in to a mob any other FTE you acquire incidental to your pull shouldn't matter unless you're stalling the mob by kiting it around after your locked target has been pulled to camp (I.E. Vulak).

But beyond that, you shouldn't be required to concede any target you happen to FTE while you're already locked into another mob. For many pulls, it's simply not possible to avoid other FTEs. The Triplets and Doubles for example, the first guild in each room would have to concede the extra mobs and be forced to go with whichever FTE fires off first. That doesn't seem very logical to me.

I don't know whether we were required to concede the targets that we did, but due to being unclear we didn't want to risk breaking the rules. Here is what I would suggest adding to the rules:

FTEs occurring while you're already locked into a target don't count at all, it's as if they never happened. After you kill your locked mob you must reacquire FTE on a new player to claim FTE -- I.E. Not the player who got the FTE during your pull (this would prevent a monk from FDing with aggro and standing to fire a new FTE or some other nonsense).

arsenalpow
04-19-2016, 11:12 AM
FTEs occurring while you're already locked into a target don't count at all, it's as if they never happened.
Good common sense approach mostly. An effort should be made to drop excess FTEs as soon as humanly possible, and an excess FTE should never inhibit another raid force from getting their shot. For example, I'd be pissed if you were pulling Koi and it aggroed Aary, then by the time Aary is done moving around and settled, we're working a pull, you're now done with Koi and proceed to grab Aary next. Your excess Aary FTE stopped me getting him into camp. You obviously aren't trying to stall Aary for your own gain, but it nonetheless prevented me from pulling.

Vulak is obviously an entirely different scenario, concession is probably the right call.

Pint
04-19-2016, 11:18 AM
By that logic then you could pull vulak and tie up the entire zone until you're done, unless youre exempting vulak?

Aftermath did our due diligence and we went to sirken to make sure we were in the clear on similar issues. I'm not speaking for him but at the time he told us that if no other guild is competing then its alright. So since awakened had conceded everything and anon/div opted to leave for the night after nev, aftermath was left with no competitors in tov so we killed all 3 triplets. Had bda or csg showed up and asked for us to concede them then we would have had to I think. So if no one is interested in the mobs youre chain fte'ing you are probably in the clear but if another entity is there in real time asking for you to concede mobs for them to get their own fte then you probably need to concede. At least that is the impression that aftermath is under.

Detoxx
04-19-2016, 11:23 AM
Good common sense approach mostly
That's never worked on this server. I had to get Sirken to OK us to pull Zlexak and Sevalak last night because a guild that wasn't even allowed to contest them was frapsing and threatening to petition even though we all know pulling triplets is impossible to do without 3 ftes going off.

arsenalpow
04-19-2016, 11:30 AM
That's never worked on this server.

Common sense hasn't worked on this server because most times common sense isn't actually used, it's contorted and abused for gain. Common sense dictates that you probably shouldn't be able to ice KT while you run off to ToV. Common sense dictates that the whole point of the Braknar agreement was to leave everything that wasn't in Fear or VP for the rest of the server, but Naggy/Vox got merc'd anyways.

You can't bemoan that common sense doesn't work when you're actively twisting it around.

Back on point, when multiple guilds are in ToV jockeying for targets it's going to be very difficult to discern intent and who disenfranchised who or if someone crying wolf etc etc. Maybe just conceding straight away any excess FTE is the way to go. Then there's no grey area to argue about or fraps or petition

Pint
04-19-2016, 11:37 AM
We see no reason to concede mobs that no one is competing for. If a guild wants a tov mob then they should have representatives in zone actively working to secure themselves ftes. If a guild is half way across norrath asking for concession on mobs they arnt eligible or positioned to fte then we are probably not going to honor those requests.

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 11:55 AM
Vulak itself should require you concede every mob you kite because you kite them for awhile, tying them up.

The no competition thing is dubious though. When we acquired FTE on Lady M, Divinity/Anon were still locked in on Eashen and no other force was in the zone. By the time we killed Koi I believe they were still locked in. So we had no competition per that logic and could've ran another racer up for Lady M to lock in on her if we wanted.

I think another way to handle it is this:

You FTE say... Cekenar, grabbing the other Triplets. You pull and kill Cekenar, while having bogus FTEs on Zlexak and Sevalak. You can go for Zlexak or Sevalak, after getting FTE on another different mob and killing it (say Ikatiar) and then going back for Triplets mobs. Basically you cannot kill a target and then follow that up with FTE on a mob you got bogus FTE on during your pull or kite. You must have a buffer mob inbetween to allow other guilds fair shots at that target.

My reasoning behind this is you have to go for a buffer mob inbetween, preventing the situation Chest is talking about. Even if a pull inhibited his pull, he would have ample time during our other kill to make his attempt at getting FTE on the mob. It prevents having to outright concede a target and prevents any shenanigans with kiting a target off dropping it and then picking it up when your other target is dead.

arsenalpow
04-19-2016, 11:59 AM
Vulak itself should require you concede every mob you kite because you kite them for awhile, tying them up.

The no competition thing is dubious though. When we acquired FTE on Lady M, Divinity/Anon were still locked in on Eashen and no other force was in the zone. By the time we killed Koi I believe they were still locked in. So we had no competition per that logic and could've ran another racer up for Lady M to lock in on her if we wanted.

I think another way to handle it is this:

You FTE say... Cekenar, grabbing the other Triplets. You pull and kill Cekenar, while having bogus FTEs on Zlexak and Sevalak. You can go for Zlexak or Sevalak, after getting FTE on another different mob and killing it (say Ikatiar) and then going back for Triplets mobs. Basically you cannot kill a target and then follow that up with FTE on a mob you got bogus FTE on during your pull or kite. You must have a buffer mob inbetween to allow other guilds fair shots at that target.

My reasoning behind this is you have to go for a buffer mob inbetween, preventing the situation Chest is talking about. Even if a pull inhibited his pull, he would have ample time during our other kill to make his attempt at getting FTE on the mob. It prevents having to outright concede a target and prevents any shenanigans with kiting a target off dropping it and then picking it up when your other target is dead.

But then there's policing all that which is rough. You have to be watching good FTEs and bad FTEs, ensure there's a buffer dragon in between. Yikes.

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 12:11 PM
Fair. I would love less rules or more streamlined ones. Was just thinking of a way to prevent the issue you're talking about.

I just think it's a bit dumb you have to concede a target for getting FTE on it after you're already locked in. Maybe just throw a lockout on a bad FTE.

I.E. You get FTE on Triplets, you've got 60 minutes to kill your target and the others you cannot engage for 20 minutes. When the 20 minutes expire if your primary target is dead you can go after the other Triplets. Etc.

arsenalpow
04-19-2016, 12:20 PM
Fair. I would love less rules or more streamlined ones. Was just thinking of a way to prevent the issue you're talking about.

I just think it's a bit dumb you have to concede a target for getting FTE on it after you're already locked in. Maybe just throw a lockout on a bad FTE.

I.E. You get FTE on Triplets, you've got 60 minutes to kill your target and the others you cannot engage for 20 minutes. When the 20 minutes expire if your primary target is dead you can go after the other Triplets. Etc.

Dald I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying, my concerns are just the enforcement of these concepts. It's dumb to straight concede something, but it's also the easiest way to enforce stuff with all the lunacy involved in ToV.

Daldaen
04-19-2016, 12:56 PM
I think the most recent suggestion I made is easily tracked and fair to resolve any possible issues.

20 min from False FTE before you can engage again, assuming your primary target is dead at that point.

Dunno what the situation was like in ToV after Vulak but we did our best to clearly communicate each FTE, what mobs we weren't going after and when 4-way was going to be pulled through.

If guilds are communicating it shouldn't be bad.

Kileras
04-19-2016, 01:16 PM
on repop i see it getting messy because for us smaller folk running people in isn't an endless wave of people. We don't have lockets and are limited in some resources. If we are going for eashen and want to tag it for our 1 hour, it sucks to run up for it and then be killed in the train in xroads or simply have the mob kited away from you already locked into another guilds Yellow text.

With the way it is now, Whoever gets in their first really makes it difficult for anyone else to "lay claim" to a target. because the mobs are constantly training up/down and all over the palace.

I know last night we just stated as soon as we were going for a mob which one we were running for and on engage would announce that particular mob as Anon/divinity and then announce all secondary mobs as unintended tags we would not contest until our mob was completely down. I know we aren't a big threat to anyone, but that was our personal approach to trying to handle it. Whether or not that broke the spirit of the rule i don't know, but we ran it by every other guild that was in there any everyone seemed okay with what had happened so we ventured on.

I will say, that if you wanna run for the deeper/bigger targets, I like the idea of having to wait a set amount of time before engaging your accidental FTE's. This almost imposes a very loose class system. The big guilds will go for the best targets and the smaller targets that the inexperienced crews might not be able to race to ( while still contested ) become a bit more in reach. Going for the biggest targets as fast as possible to compete nets you a chance at zoning yourselves out of the smallest mobs for a bit.

our biggest issue with this was fighting at west, we needed to tag ltk to train up and clear the area, we debated for probably an hour if we felt it was right or not to engage LTK and after talking with the other guild leaders and so much time passing since pop we went ahead and killed it.

Pint
04-19-2016, 01:55 PM
I'm not sure I understand where the policing issue comes into play. If you're in the zone then you see the ftes in real time and know what's going on, you can communicate that you intend to go foe accidental fte X. If you're not in the zone or intending to fte something then there isn't anything to police on your end bc you weren't contesting I'm the first place.

The only real concern I see is when you accidentally kite and fte another persons mob with your pull which then eats into their 1 hour allotment.

Kileras
04-19-2016, 01:56 PM
I'm not sure I understand where the policing issue comes into play. If you're in the zone then you see the ftes in real time and know what's going on, you can communicate that you intend to go foe accidental fte X. If you're not in the zone or intending to fte something then there isn't anything to police on your end bc you weren't contesting I'm the first place.

The only real concern I see is when you accidentally kite and fte another persons mob with your pull which then eats into their 1 hour allotment.

this was solved ( at least last night ) with realizing your kite was eating into another persons pull and just not bothering them about it if it went over time by a bit. I think we went over time on 1 mob by 8 minutes or so? This was only because we simply could not get a tagger out safely or we were waiting for train up/downs to reset.

Culkasi
04-26-2016, 06:47 AM
These new rules have done NOTHING to solve the problem that started it all in the first place - killing stuff in places that kill other people. The whole reason for the 1 hour etc was not so that the smaller guilds could killl stuff, it was so that you didn't have to pull stuff to entrance and kill guilds but could either clear to the mob or set up somewhere else.

Please, can we stop this behaviour? It kills other guilds, and its not acceptable.

Breaken
04-26-2016, 07:10 AM
I asked Detoxx to kill mobs in the cubby. He said he was given permission to kill at entrance as long as they give ample warning. I have no confirmation that this is true, but I believe it is.

Culkasi
04-26-2016, 07:11 AM
This isn't an attack on Detoxx, he is trying to be nice about it etc, and its hard for them when you set up at west exit. But we need to find a solution, because I have a lot of people who are getting very tired of getting killed because people need to kill so fast that they can't do it on the spawn point - something the 1 hour time was supposed to fix.

The alternative is that everyone accepts that only AA are allowed to be in ToV, and GMs change it to a non-policy zone like old VP

Breaken
04-26-2016, 07:53 AM
I agree it isn't. I was informing that he was apparently told it is okay to kill at entrance. I know our pulls, as well as Aftermath's, makes 4 way not clear during the training. Normally though, you should be able to run through the train, and not get agro, if you do not touch it.