Amendment to Kael Footrace rules ( request )

[Kileras]

Can we all agree on a separate addition to the kael Footrace raiding rules, something like:

FTE gurantees 1 attempt within 1.5 hours of FTE, or until your guild engages another raid target.

i only heard rumor mill of what happened over in Kael last night, and it completely blows my mind. Would a change like this seem fair to all involved? You should not be able to tag FTE on a mob on earthquake and then move elsewhere to focus on other targets and come back at your leisure.

thoughts?

[Breaken]

It seems like the "or until your guild engages another raid target" would be in the spirit of the original rule.

[phiren]

The questions become .. how does a guild know 2 things:
#1) Who got FTE?
The guild that got FTE had ZERO people in zone. The only reason I heard about it was from another person from another guild. I really have no suggestions here. Everything I can think of requires some kind of website / programming, which I'm assuming is off the table, or people to be honest and maintain a member in zone announcing their guild has claim to KT.
#2) That guild from #1 'engages another raid mob'
Since everyone here likes to completely pick apart rules and find loopholes... let's say guild XXX gets FTE and goes to NToV, and never engages a mob because they get beat. I *assure you*, that guild XXX will maintain they never engaged another raid mob and KT is still theirs. You can see 90 people from the other guild in the other zone, but unless you have someone in zone watching them the whole time ... again ... you will never know.


I love the footrace rule and am 100% a fan, but I just don't think it should apply to earthquakes.

~Phiren

[Culkasi]

I am pretty disgusted that we have to discuss this, I thought it was obvious from discussions in the meeting what the intent of the rule is, but if we can't stop behaving like children, then yes, put a hard rule in that the FTE is only valid until you decide to engage another raid target.
I am pretty furious with what happened, and am very disapointed that this discussion is even nessescary.

[bktroost]

I think that's a fantastic amendment. But I think it should read "Until a guild gets FTE on another raid mob." This rule was made to end trains and open opportunity. In this scenario it encouraged a guild to tag a mob to REDUCE opportunity. It was frankly unacceptable.

Funny aside here: The only people who would consider doing something so corrupt as manipulating a raid rule to the absolute opposite purpose of it is the guild that we want to look at those raid rules to help us see how they can be manipulated. Those who would not do those things don't because they'd never dream of doing them and therefore are the worst people to brainstorm about loopholes. That being said, the one who is best suited to find those loopholes are the ones who want them to exist.

I guess the only way to make this all work is to trial run these rules and have terrible, spirit breaking run ins like last night and work through them step by step and taking our lumps as we go.


Thanks Fugues and Breaken for bringing this up for us. I think it's a great amendment to fix a terrible situation.

[bktroost]

You can see 90 people from the other guild in the other zone, but unless you have someone in zone watching them the whole time ... again ... you will never know.


I love the footrace rule and am 100% a fan, but I just don't think it should apply to earthquakes.

~Phiren


If the rules was who got FTE then it would be really easy for GMs to see in the logs. however, in the moment players need a way to point to them getting FTE. I suppose we could communicate across guilds, sure. But how much can we value the opinion of another guild.

Here's the real crux though. If they are not allowed to get FTE on another mob once they get FTE on Tormax then that means they are risking a 10 DAY FULL raiding ban if they break that. Since it IS super visible to GMs I cannot imagine they would make such a risk.

[Kileras]

the standard operating procedure has been that FTE means securing a kill within minutes after the FTE message. There should be nothing wrong with saying that if you get FTE you should have your raid incoming to kill that mob ASAP, if you choose to FTE another mob, then you better have two raid forces, or more precisely you should have to concede all FTE's following it.

if you need to kill the mob within minutes, then go ahead and footrace and translocate your runner and start the train ( and take full responsibility for it ). kill your mob and move on like you used to. If you aren't going to do that, then I think you should be conceding all FTE's post king/statue until you have them killed. it is absurd and beyond greedy to utilize the foot racing ruleset to enable you a stall on targets. It is such a blatant exploitation of a good natured rule that i was in complete shock when i heard it happened.

[Daldaen]

It seems like the "or until your guild engages another raid target" would be in the spirit of the original rule.

Very difficult to monitor this when the guild vacates the zone and heads to a completely different zone. Not every guild is Lord Varys. We don't have ears in every corner of Norrath watching for fresh FTE messages.

First to Engage gets a free attempt is just a bad way of handling FTE.

The rule wasn't designed with sim repops in mind because of how rare they had been recently. I surely hope they continue but the rules need to account for them and we simply didn't discuss this during our meeting because we hadn't had one in awhile.

[Pint]

Which two guild representatives first asked what the time expectation on an engage were? Your responses were the generic aversion to "player made agreements" and it has bitten you in the ass just like we told you it would. Work. With. Us....

Aftermath fully supports limitations on how long a target can be left unengaged.

[bktroost]

Which two guild representatives first asked what the time expectation on an engage were? Your responses were the generic aversion to "player made agreements" and it has bitten you in the ass just like we told you it would. Work. With. Us....

Aftermath fully supports limitations on how long a target can be left unengaged.

Incorrect approach in my opinion. Strapping a culture of high pressure raiding that requires pulling tactics that are inherent to only one culture is wrong. It took us 45 minutes to clear to KT and attempt to pull him out.

2 hour rule: If you said 2 hours for a FTE attempt that gives you 2 hours to high pressure pull 5 mobs in ToV or Zland and rush over to the content you have locked down in Kael.

Result: great stall opportunity for hard core guilds. Less opportunity for casuals because of locked content.

20 minute rule: If you say 20 minutes and it takes 45 to clear then you force casuals to play a style of training mobs to entrance and remove a culture of clearing mobs. If they try anything else then they lose their window and the mob again gets locked.

Results: a forced culture and mobs being locked out for no particular guild. A lose of opportunity.


So time being the factor is a complete mistake. If the goal is to reduce stalling and open opportunity then the answer is mob per mob. If you want the FTE attempt then have a force and its the next mob you kill after fte ( policable by guilds) or if that guild gets a different fte then they lose rights( policable by staff).

[Pint]

I can talk until I am blue in the face and you will continue to dismiss my input at every turn bc you insist on working with the assumption that my motives are 100% self serving and in no way trying to account for creating a level playing field for every party involved full stop. Until you are prepared to sit down and work with your peers (those of us who do not share your play style) to fully think through the implications of your positions, we will continue to push all of these scenarios to their obvious end point until you are ready to acknowledge that we are trying to create an environment that does not need to be continually second guessed.

If you think that this singular petty over sight is unique then you are not prepared for the environment you are trying to step in to. Wait until the first few times my guild is telling you to concede a mob that you violated a very vague kiting or stalling rule on and you're having to explain to 70 people that the last 10 hours of time investment was for nothing bc making the wrong decision means a 10 day vacation or a 2 week lockout despite the fact that you do not know if you even violated a rule in the first place. How many instances need to play out before you end up right back here asking questions that sirken isn't going to answer satisfactorily for you.

We are not your enemy, we are your competition. Until you are able to separate these two concepts and work with us, you are going to find this raiding environment very inhospitable just like Asgard did we when entered into it.

[Katpal]

I feel like I was played, so thank you for taking another chunk out of what was left of my ability to work with those who insist on stacking the deck in their favor.

This footrace rule was introduced prior to the summit and lead to discussions about it's viability as a way to end the zone disruptions that are occurring in most raid zones on the server. While I was not in favor of the rule as that is not my preferred method of engaging a mob, I agreed that more time was needed to fully assess this as a possible solution.

The footrace rule was promoted as a way to "level the playing field" because "anyone could run". Instead, the guild that introduced the rule is the very guild that used it to placehold FTE for themsleves. That was absolutely not in the spirit of the rule nor how the rule was presented and defended by it's sponsors.

If you want to footrace for FTE in Kael to guarantee your 1 attempt at Statue/King Tormax, then said rule must stipulate that once your raid force leaves the zone, you lose your claim to FTE.

[bktroost]

I can talk until I am blue in the face and you will continue to dismiss my input at every turn bc you insist on working with the assumption that my motives are 100% self serving and in no way trying to account for creating a level playing field for every party involved full stop. Until you are prepared to sit down and work with your peers (those of us who do not share your play style) to fully think through the implications of your positions, we will continue to push all of these scenarios to their obvious end point until you are ready to acknowledge that we are trying to create an environment that does not need to be continually second guessed.

If you think that this singular petty over sight is unique then you are not prepared for the environment you are trying to step in to. Wait until the first few times my guild is telling you to concede a mob that you violated a very vague kiting or stalling rule on and you're having to explain to 70 people that the last 10 hours of time investment was for nothing bc making the wrong decision means a 10 day vacation or a 2 week lockout despite the fact that you do not know if you even violated a rule in the first place. How many instances need to play out before you end up right back here asking questions that sirken isn't going to answer satisfactorily for you.

We are not your enemy, we are your competition. Until you are able to separate these two concepts and work with us, you are going to find this raiding environment very inhospitable just like Asgard did we when entered into it.


I don't think anyone is an enemy here other than the mobs themselves.

Every opinion matters. I'm saying that time for engagement is not viable. I'm suggesting a different means by which to rule to create an environment that is both non-training and non-stalling.

I'm at the table of change and happy to work through things from a bipartisan viewpoint. But I won't ignore one culture and only work from the other.

[Pint]

Aftermath is in full support of fte guaranteeing you an attempt on a mob free of time limit up until you fte a different mob. This will result in us fte'ing statue and leaving it up until prime time so that we have the #'s for AoW. Assuming that tov works in a similar fashion we will fte dragon x and leave it until we determine who gets fte on dragon y. We will also use this to shift windows in our favor. If these things are acceptable to the rest of you then we can get behind your solution. I believe that our reasoning for leaving mobs up will coincide with your own, especially if you also want to start attempting AoW.

Pretending like aftermath proposed a rule and designed it with the intent of exploiting it is asinine. We were the first to point out the flaw and the first to suggest it be resolved, both things happened before the races ever started.

We do not care what play style you fall under. If you want to compete with us then we will hold you to the same standard that we are held to. We took Asgard from class R to class C and we went from low end velious to high end velious. Asgard has had to run this gauntlet and learn the realities of this raid environment first hand, if you also want to progress forward then you too will have to adapt. I didn't wake up one day with a penchant for rule lawyering and jumping through loop holes, I was thrown into a crash course by IB/rampage/awakened.. Welcome to the party.

[Culkasi]

So, Pint, just to understand, Aftermath policy is "no matter what, we will always do what it takes to make sure no one else gets raid mobs, and bend the rules as much as possible to achieve that"?

Staff: All you have to say is that you prefer if only Aftermath and Awakened would raid, at least that way we have a sense of direction for how you want the raid scene to be.

[Detoxx]

We understand you dont like what happened last night. We are 100% on board to make something different about it, and I tried my hardest at the meeting to make rules for these exact situations. There is currently 5 mobs sitting up, 4 of them in the end zones of expansions, that haven't even been attempted by anyone.

Klandicar is left up by both us and Awakened every week. Im not sure why you aren't attempting any of these mobs? I know you have the keys for VP, you've been farming Trak for months. Theres literally no one in NToV atm. These mobs take 30 people to kill, not a huge force.

There is a simple fix to what happened last night: You get FTE, you get 1 attempt or 1 hour to kill it. If you leave the zone, you forfeit it. Funny, cause had we actually talked about this at the meeting, instead of resource distribution, this could have all been avoided. Instead, we decided to talk about how its not fair that upper guilds would benefit from this rather than realizing how much the other guilds with benefit from it ten fold. Also we decided to talk about how it wouldn't be fair since we have more experience running up.

[Pint]

So, Pint, just to understand, Aftermath policy is "no matter what, we will always do what it takes to make sure no one else gets raid mobs, and bend the rules as much as possible to achieve that"?


Go ahead and highlight where I made that statement. Alternatively, work with me to establish common ground and move forward.