Monk 2hb trick (with epic)

[Troxx]

So I've been experimenting with a strategy I read about. I have an IFS that I carry around for mobs with dmg shields and for riposte disc. Usually I use epic/SoS solo or grouping. The strat involves using IFS and unequipping to use offhand epic hit then re-equipping. At first I thought this would only be viable if I very obsessively timed the IFS swap in/out, but to be honest simply taking a more relaxed approach it seems to beat my epic/SoS combo.

Epic/epic is worse than Epic/SoS, but not by a lot.

IFS for a primary ratio (if you could offhand as well) is nuts. Tossing the IFS in for a quick 2hb single/double attack then quickly popping it back in primary effectively gives me a near permanent offhand 9/16 with an every so often 38/40 primary single double ... and probably 2/3 of the time I'm just dual wielding 9/16s. I know with perfect timing it'd probably work best if I swung my IFS every time I could, but that's too much work.

Thoughts? IFS seems to be ideal for this as it has a 40 delay and a big ass whopping hit.

I haven't parsed it, but like I said it certainly feels like mobs are dropping much faster solo, and I lose a lower percentage of my health per mob, thus decreasing down time.

[Troxx]

The more I mess around with it the more I like it.

Ever time I'm slow to swap in IFS the delay for 2hb is 16 (before haste/epic/etc) so swapping it in casually still works. It basically works out to epic/epic with bonus damage every time I equip the IFS. If I do so at a very relaxed pace it seems to out-damage epic/SoS by a reasonable margin, and fewer ripostes (and my ripostes are more powerful) to boot. The more intense I am with swapping it in, the larger the bonuses.

The Duxa UI helps having that readily available without inventory screen up. Neat trick, it seems to work very nicely!

This would not be as efficient pre-epic as you have to swap more gear in/out. Pre-epic though, all monks should carry an IFS. If you don't have epic but do have a Tstaff, sell the staff to finance the epic.

[Man0warr]

Of course you are going to lose less health using a 2h while solo - less ripostes and all that.

I tried this trick swapping between bare hands and Shovel of the Harvest and parsed it a dozen times or so vs HoT trash (which takes a few minutes to kill) and it was either not noticeable or just Shovel won out. It's not that easy to trick the delay.

[jpetrick]

DPS FORMULA
=((DMG*2)+DMG BONUS)/DLY

Level 60 Damage Bonus 1Hand = 11
Level 60 Damage Bonus 2Hand = 17

TOTAL DMG for Dual Wield
=Primary DPS+(Secondary DPS*0.78)
[.78 is used because the chance for dual wield is 78% at max skill]

My math assumes that you are able to weapon swap perfectly, so there is slightly less damage with a 2hander if you weapon swap poorly.

T-Staff w/ Weapon swap
Tranquil Staff DPS 2.5
+ Epic Fist (Offhand) 1.09
Total DPS = 3.3502 (Triple attack not yet in game & no Hundred Blows proc factored in)

Epic Fist 1.76
Scepter of Mastery (Offhand) 1.238
Total DPS = 2.725

Wu's Fist of Mastery 1.95
Wu's Fist of Mastery (Offhand) 1.45
Total DPS = 3.211

Bo Staff of Trorsmang 2.77
+ Epic Fist (Offhand) 1.09
Total DPS = 3.62

Here is the DPS with your 13/20 suggested weapons
13/20 Mainhand 1.85
13/20 Offhand 1.3
Total DPS = 2.864

And just for fun:
Gharn's Rock of Smashing 2.26
Wurmscale Fistwraps (Offhand) 1.55
Total DPS = 3.469 (No Strike of the Chosen proc included)

Abashi's Rod of Disempowerment 3.23
+ Epic Fist (Offhand) 1.09
Total DPS = 4.0835 (Triple attack not yet in game)

Does Gharn's proc 80 point life tap beat out Abashi's when weapon swapping? That I don't know.
At 255 dex you will average 1 proc every 20 seconds. My guess is that Abashi's is still better.

Weapon swapping with IFS will be 3.2002 DPS

IFS Mainhand = 2.35
Epic Fist Offhand = 1.09

(((2.35 + (1.09 x .78))) = 3.2002

Weapon swapping is usually better than using 1 handers. It is very easy to get the timing down (I play on 90-110 ping and I have a near perfect success rate), Manowarr must play on an extremely high ping if he has issues
weapon swapping.

[Troxx]

Of course you are going to lose less health using a 2h while solo - less ripostes and all that.

Fights are shorter than just using IFS alone though, and I end the fights with lower percentage of health on average using JUST IFS compared to Epic/SoS due to the longer kill time, and noticably lower health than swapping IFS in/out and spending a good 2/3 of the time just riding epic/epic damage output.

Like I said, I dont even bother to perfectly time it. I swap in IFS very briefly after a few seconds of chain epic fist rounds and it certainly feels a lot stronger dps-wise.

Soloing with nothing but a fungi in KC, I'm using less bandages and spending less time between fights (and faster fights).

The only drawback I've found thus far is that it's a bit labor-intensive and not nearly as relaxed as just fire/forget autoattacking with a kick bound to epic click on refresh.

[Troxx]

Yep, after a more exhaustive solo and duo session I can confirm that with epic and IFS compared to standard epic/SoS combo:

-assuming epic/epic is default, swapping in IFS for a quick round then back out
-proportional to how often you time the swap in/out (and comparing directly to epis/SoS) you will see ....
-more damage
-less ripostes

Win!

You really do need epic to make this work though. It's way too cumbersome to try and do this swapping between 2 1handers and the IFS. You don't have to be too anal doing this either, just make sure you pop the IFS <<OUT>> as soon as you swing your 2hb to maximize things. Worst case scenario you spend too much time epic/epic ... which isn't terribly worse than epic/SoS to begin with. The more intense you are with swapping it in, the higher the dps output. Once you start swinging your primary/secondary 9/16 epic fists the delay before your next 2hb swing is only 16 (pre-haste) so there's not a long wait once you pop it in before you swing and can pop it back out.

[Troxx]

I tried this trick swapping between bare hands and Shovel of the Harvest and parsed it a dozen times or so vs HoT trash (which takes a few minutes to kill) and it was either not noticeable or just Shovel won out. It's not that easy to trick the delay.

Bear in mind that Shovel by itself is or should be better dps than any of the weapons we're talking about. If you're not perfect swapping in/out the Shovel you will end up only breaking even or doing worse than just keeping Shovel equipped. It's in a tier of weaponry that goes beyond this conversation.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Shovel_of_the_Harvest

50/43 is will be considerably better damage by itself than Epic, SoS, Tstaff, IFS, or any combination thereof. If you're not perfect swapping the shovel in/out to capitalize on it's EVERY swing capability, it's easy to appreciate how with this weapon it's totally not worth it. Like I said, it's in a tier of weaponry that goes beyond this conversation. If I had the shovel, I'd just keep it equipped 24/7 and forget about any other weapons or fancy swaps.

Comparing the dps of 3 setups below:

Epic/SoS
Epic/epic
IFS

Epic/SoS > Epic/epic > IFS

With swapping ...

IFS/Swap > Epic/SoS > Epic/Epic

I'd argue the juice isn't worth the squeeze in a good 4-6 man group.

Duo, marginally worth it ... but paired up with a shaman I'd honestly prefer to be lazy.

Solo it is totally worth it. I have a fungi and modestly good gear in most other slots. Solo in KC at level 56, dog sentries (doesn't matter if dark blue or green) are easy to solo if I start at > 70% health. Drolvarg Guardians can be a PITA as can Skeletal Lookouts/Guardians - even with mend up. With the IFS alone I take less damage over time per second but the fight lasts sufficiently long(er) enough that using it over Epic/SoS isn't worth it. I end up taking less total damage per fight by ending the fight sooner with dual wield. Epic/SoS is or has been the bread and butter, but I usually have to burn mend on these harder mobs. With the swap technique I can reliably drop Drolvarg Guards (they run at 20%) without using mend. For the skeletons it's still luck as they don't run, but I burn mend a lot less now and almost never have to give up and flop (where before this was a real risk while solo and without buffs) even with mend.

For the monk that happens to have epic but is very tight on cash ... the SoS you could easily bail on in lieu of the IFS (which you will want anyways for damage shields).

Comparing IFS vs Tstaff for this technique, I'd argue the IFS will net more damage as it's delay is a lot more forgiving if you're not perfect about swapping in and out. Swapping in/out at 40 delay is a lot less labor intensive than at delay 30. You could argue the proc on Tstaff would still make it the favorite ... but it's so expensive that unless you're loaded on cash, there's no point (Epic/SoS will beat it toe to toe almost every time).

PS: Quick question for Man0warr --> how does shovel average dps compare with other comparable raid level 1handers for dps? As good? Slightly worse?

[jpetrick]

Wait. Am I understanding you correctly that you are swapping in the IFS and letting yourself get more epic attacks than IFS attacks? IE: you keep your hands empty and swap in IFS then take it out?


Also Epic/SoS is worse than T-staff when weapon swapping. My math and personal parses prove this.

[Man0warr]

PS: Quick question for Man0warr --> how does shovel average dps compare with other comparable raid level 1handers for dps? As good? Slightly worse?

No idea, as I don't have access to comparable raid level 1-handers. I got the shovel before Forsaken/Awakened/Rampage clamped down on all ToV raid bosses - earlier on BDA got a lot of Telk/Gozzrem kills.

Outside of Wu Fists from sky, there just aren't any comparable one-handers outside of NToV/Sleepers/Tunare.

The Shovel parses around ~85-90 dps (max hit just over 300 with raid buffs), but it's a bad option for high AC targets like Dain and some Kael targets as it hits for it's lower range too often. I imagine when they patch in delay-based damage bonus to 2-handers in the October patch it will be much better.

[Troxx]

Wait. Am I understanding you correctly that you are swapping in the IFS and letting yourself get more epic attacks than IFS attacks? IE: you keep your hands empty and swap in IFS then take it out?


Also Epic/SoS is worse than T-staff when weapon swapping. My math and personal parses prove this.

The most efficient thing would to swap in IFS as soon as the delay cooldown is up. That's pretty labor intensive so I've been popping IFS in/out and let time epic go back into full quad mode before popping IFS back in. It's less dps that way but also a lot less clicks and attention required while still being more dps than raw dual wield with epic/SoS.

Tstaff would be more dps than IFS, but to maximize it you'd have to click/swap 25-30% compared to IFS more frequently ... Which is a pain.

I won a T Staff but sold it. For its plat value and the upgrades it could buy ... I was not impressed with the weapon (and it was heavy).

[Raev]

The Shovel parses around ~85-90 dps

Whaaat? Is this like 'while innerflamed' or 'against kor shamans in sebilis' ?

[Wed Feb 10 13:39:54 2016] Azeth tells the guild, 'Derakor the Vindicator in 151s, 189k @1252 --- Azeth 22k@(152 in 148s) --- Kinglance 15k@(103 in 147s) --- Raevin 14k@(98 in 146s) --- Domoh 14k@(98 in 145s) --- Fuge 14k@(93 in 146s) --- Bruize 10k@(76 in 138s) --- Carlossal 10k@(72 in 145s) --- Raev 10k@(67 in 148s) --- Dianamel 10k@(67 in 148s) --- Stonefists 10k@(76 in 125s)'
[Sat Feb 13 10:53:51 2016] Azeth tells the guild, 'Derakor the Vindicator in 116s, 176k @1519 --- Braq 15k@(127 in 115s) --- Kinglance 13k@(114 in 116s) --- Azeth 11k@(100 in 114s) --- Seedss 11k@(92 in 116s) --- Hermaphroditey 11k@(94 in 113s) --- Stabatani 10k@(88 in 114s) --- Rikas 9k@(87 in 106s) --- Raev 8k@(66 in 116s) --- Zerious 7k@(64 in 116s) --- Berkeley 7k@(64 in 107s)'

I'm usually somewhere in the 60-70 range with two 13/20 primal battlehammers. My sperglord calculator suggests that the Shovel should be about the same minus the Avatar part, so 50-60 dps. Actually, it thinks the Shovel, primal hammers, bo staff, tstaff, and epic/sos are all within a few % of each other.

[Man0warr]

I think I've hit ~110 dps with Innerflame on a 32k dragon (Nexona I believe) that died in 25ish seconds.

I honestly don't parse that much, so that 85 dps figure might be the high end. The Shovel is pretty inconsistent on short fights.

[jpetrick]

The most efficient thing would to swap in IFS as soon as the delay cooldown is up. That's pretty labor intensive so I've been popping IFS in/out and let time epic go back into full quad mode before popping IFS back in. It's less dps that way but also a lot less clicks and attention required while still being more dps than raw dual wield with epic/SoS.

Tstaff would be more dps than IFS, but to maximize it you'd have to click/swap 25-30% compared to IFS more frequently ... Which is a pain.

I won a T Staff but sold it. For its plat value and the upgrades it could buy ... I was not impressed with the weapon (and it was heavy).

You are weapon swapping the hard way. Keep your staff in your hands and take it out to swing with your off hand. No wonder you have issues doing it. You are trying to time something within .8 seconds (assuming 100% haste). That's so much harder than unequipping the staff to swing your epic fist offhand.

[SowIsLifeSowIsLove]

So should I be watching for the monks offhand swing or the actual text of the swing? I notice quite a bit that when I remove the IFS for the offhand swing nothingness happens. I don't have epic so maybe there wasn't enough time for the delay to catch up? Thoughts?

[jpetrick]

So should I be watching for the monks offhand swing or the actual text of the swing? I notice quite a bit that when I remove the IFS for the offhand swing nothingness happens. I don't have epic so maybe there wasn't enough time for the delay to catch up? Thoughts?

Weapon swapping is based on swinging your offhand. Dual wield percentage in other words. Dual Wield skill + level / 400 is the formula.

You won't swing your offhand every time you weapon swap.

I used to watch the text when I was learning the timing. You may find it easier to actually watch for the animation.

I have never weapon swapped with an IFS but with a t-staff I take the staff out for maybe half a second before replacing it. I have 81% haste without VoG. Your timing window might be longer. The offhand should go off immediately with an epic fist, I would imagine it is the same even with no epic fist.

Dual wield works independently of the main hand. This is why a very low delay offhand can generate a lot of attacks.

[thewrush]

Or...................................

You can just not try to swap and let the thing do its thing?

Push Q, watch numbers. Simple.

[jpetrick]

Or...................................

You can just not try to swap and let the thing do its thing?

Push Q, watch numbers. Simple.

Use 1 handers if you play lazy like this.

Thanks for adding something productive to the discussion though.

[Colgate]

feels good having a gharn's and not having to play autismquest for an extra 4 damage per second

[Xaanka]

feels good having a gharn's and not having to play autismquest for an extra 4 damage per second

i thought this thread was about blue server FTE rules :confused:

[Nilasbik]

What parse program are you using?

[Raev]

feels good having a gharn's and not having to play autismquest for an extra 4 damage per second

When you kill raid targets with 150 of your closest friends, who cares about DPS anyway? And I say this for Blue and Red.

[jolanar]

Just chiming in that you don't need epic for this to work.

[gildor]

I am with Jolanar, I am doing it on my 22 monk using a PB, now that my DW skill is over 150 its pretty awesome "quad attacking" 2 for max with the PB 2 with my offhand fists, without missing a round of 2h dmg

[Man0warr]

I stopped doing it because it's a hassle and DPS isn't really my primary role in a raid.

[Raev]

There's so much misinformation about this, and any DW class can do this not just Monks.
True, but as a warrior your offhand is like 1/30. Now if you had a really slow primary, you could maybe get your primary 2H, then offhand punch, then offhand swing with a reasonable weapon. If this works for you, let me know . . .

People like to state and calculate it as if you're getting a real 9/16 offhand but you are not. Your offhand delay is restricted to whatever the delay of your 2h you are using.
Kind of; with the Bo Staff of Trorsmang you can get 2 offhand attacks in pretty easily.

In the end though, with apologies to Colgate, it feels good having an Abashi's so I don't have to play autismquest for 4 extra dps.

[Lojik]

Re: with other dual wield classes, you could turn auto attack on/off rq in between switches, but that would be pretty tedious.

[jolanar]

There's so much misinformation about this, and any DW class can do this not just Monks.

People like to state and calculate it as if you're getting a real 9/16 offhand but you are not. Your offhand delay is restricted to whatever the delay of your 2h you are using.

TStaff swap essentially puts you at 29/30 mainhand and 9/30 offhand not 29/30 mainhand with 9/16 offhand.

Free bonus swings = more damage though. Can't argue that. When I used to get bored on Sky raids pre-velious I would do this with TStaff and be out DPSing the Rogues.

Not unless your an epicless scrub like me. Actually does more damage sans epic.

[fiveeauxfour]

I don't know if this question was answered already but at which dual wield weapon combo threshold does the swap become irrelevant?

wu's? primal/priceless battlehammers? surely gharns/fon is unbeatable

basically, when is it not worth sweating IRL trying to time this fucking mechanic

[Raev]

I don't know if this question was answered already but at which dual wield weapon combo threshold does the swap become irrelevant?

wu's? primal/priceless battlehammers? surely gharns/fon is unbeatable

basically, when is it not worth sweating IRL trying to time this fucking mechanic

according to my sperglord calculator, the upgraded bo staff is unbeatable.

Upgraded Bo Staff + 9/17.5 offhand fist: 105 dps
Upgraded Abashi's Rod: 96 dps
Upgraded Gharn's Rock/FON: 95 dps
Current Gharn's Rock/FON: 88 dps
Current Bo Staff + 9/17.5 offhand fist: 87 dps
Current Abashi's Rod: 79 dps
Current 2x Primal Hammers: 70 dps


Upgraded is with the increased 2HB bonus, triple attack, better damage table, etc

[Lojik]

according to my sperglord calculator, the upgraded bo staff is unbeatable.

Upgraded Bo Staff + 9/17.5 offhand fist: 105 dps
Upgraded Abashi's Rod: 96 dps
Upgraded Gharn's Rock/FON: 95 dps
Current Gharn's Rock/FON: 88 dps
Current Bo Staff + 9/17.5 offhand fist: 87 dps
Current Abashi's Rod: 79 dps
Current 2x Primal Hammers: 70 dps


Upgraded is with the increased 2HB bonus, triple attack, better damage table, etc

What are the actual numbers for the 2h bonus math? Couldn't find anything on it (although I only did a few searches.) Also, when you say 9/17.5 offhand, are you assuming people are getting 2x offhand rounds in between bo swings, or that's 1 round with 100% haste? 2x swings will take perfect timing and I don't think people could keep that up continuously, especially since you have to worry about positioning etc.

[Raev]

When the October 2001 patch hits, I believe 2H damage bonuses should follow this table (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html). Generally speaking, 2H weapons have been junk for the entire life of the server. That will change with the Oct 2001 patch. Abashi's Rod will be marginally better than Gharn's Rock+Fist of Nature. The Bo Staff of Trorsmang will beat out double Wu's Fists of Mastery. Smart warriors will choose Gaudralek over two SODs (except Sakuragi, because fuck that terrible iksar 2HS animation) and the 2H epic will be seen more frequently than the split 1H epic. Paladins and Shadowknights will be able to do moderate damage. The biggest losers will be Rogues, who will be stuck with 1H.

Also, I played around a bit last year with dual wielding the Bo Staff. It's not as hard as you make it sound. When you see the 'you crush XX' you just click the mouse, wait 1 second, and click again. It's still way more work than I like to do, especially since the average raid on P1999 consists of about 50x the number of players needed to actually beat the content.

[Colgate]

considering you're not getting an offhand hit in every single time you do this and gharn's has an unresistable 80 damage proc, i'm pretty sure gharn's + fist of nature/lightning is unbeatable

[Raev]

sperglord calculator includes the 80 damage proc, although it doesn't include the FON proc as that doesn't land on raid mobs

[Cecily]

When the October 2001 patch hits, I believe 2H damage bonuses should follow this table (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html). Generally speaking, 2H weapons have been junk for the entire life of the server. That will change with the Oct 2001 patch. Abashi's Rod will be marginally better than Gharn's Rock+Fist of Nature. The Bo Staff of Trorsmang will beat out double Wu's Fists of Mastery. Smart warriors will choose Gaudralek over two SODs (except Sakuragi, because fuck that terrible iksar 2HS animation) and the 2H epic will be seen more frequently than the split 1H epic. Paladins and Shadowknights will be able to do moderate damage. The biggest losers will be Rogues, who will be stuck with 1H.

I'm not sold on a 30-40 point damage bonus on a slow weapon being game changing. More worried about monk triple attack.

[EatitNerd]

This is not a trick, it's autism

[monkybunk]

Can someone explain the mechanics of this weapon swapping thing works? What's going on exactly? Something that only works with monk epic?

[Kelzar]

When is the "upgraded damage" patch supposed to be according to the timeline??

[gildor]

Can someone explain the mechanics of this weapon swapping thing works? What's going on exactly? Something that only works with monk epic?

This is not something that only works with monk epic. How it works, you "trick" the duel wield trigger by unequipping your 2hb right as it hits causing a dual wield trigger for your offhand...often getting a swing with that offhand..

I have found I can make best use of it when wielding an Imbued Fighters Staff..the 40 delay, even hasted gives a split second longer to time the unequip..

Its very tedious to do, but certainly adds a significant amount of damage to your target..especially useful when soloing where every bit of dmg helps..

[maskedmelon]

You don't have to unequip it right away. Just need to do it before the mainhand delay cycles ^^