Rift: The Planes of Telara

[Meldor]

This weekend is the first closed beta of Rift.

I got invited to beta test it... anyone else have an eye on this game?

here a decent video released yesterday:

Click Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0GKKM9EuXE)

Enjoy

[zorro]

got mah beta invite... waitin for 1pm

[Omnimorph]

I got this invite for the beta, game looked a bit meh. Lemme know if it's any good and i might give it a bit more of my time :p

[Crone]

Can't wait for 1pm.. too bad I'm at work until 6pm. :(

[Yak]

Got a beta invite. Rift has shown me that the future of all MMOs are care bear point and click. It has the look and feel of War Hammer PVE but is easier then WOW or EQ2. If project 1999 didn't exist I would be playing Dark Fall Online.

[Messianic]

easier then WOW

::head explodes::

[Phallax]

Got a beta invite. Rift has shown me that the future of all MMOs are care bear point and click. It has the look and feel of War Hammer PVE but is easier then WOW or EQ2. If project 1999 didn't exist I would be playing Dark Fall Online.

Its a beta. Betas are almost always easier than the release.

But the "future" of MMOs will NEVER hold an EQ type game again because its all about the $$ now, not the danger and challenge.

[Salty]

Too much like WoW.

[Yak]

Its a beta. Betas are almost always easier than the release.



That is false!!!! I have not seen a game get harder in the release then the beta. This was the case with Vindictus and a few other betas I have played. MMOs keep getting easier. When LOTRO came out a years ago it was harder then WOW and didn't have that care bear feeling. Now it's just barley harder then EQ2. A blind man or women could play EQ2 and not die.

People want a game where they hold your cock for you then good for them. They might as well let you click on the map and go to the different locations. It's hard not to stumble and trip over the next quest. An MMO coming out now a days is just going to be a disappointment! Unless they start making MMOs for people who want a challenge and not retards there is no future in MMOs for the hardcore gamer.

[Phallax]

That is false!!!! I have not seen a game get harder in the release then the beta. This was the case with Vindictus and a few other betas I have played. MMOs keep getting easier. When LOTRO came out a years ago it was harder then WOW and didn't have that care bear feeling. Now it's just barley harder then EQ2. A blind man or women could play EQ2 and not die.

People want a game where they hold your cock for you then good for them. They might as well let you click on the map and go to the different locations. It's hard not to stumble and trip over the next quest. An MMO coming out now a days is just going to be a disappointment! Unless they start making MMOs for people who want a challenge and not retards there is no future in MMOs for the hardcore gamer.

You proved my point exactly....

When it came out AFTER beta it was hard. Betas are generally easier not so much the gameplay but because the XP is usually sky rocketed to promote faster leveling than when its released. Thus easy during beta. Of course over time every game gets easier and easier, thats just MMO life.

[Devil]

been playing this a few hours today. reminds me a lot less of WoW and a lot more of WAR except more fun thus far. this phase is only for the Defiant side so unfortunately can't test PVP yet but I love the classes, having multiple "souls" and skill trees to work up is nice. Will take a good while for people to pair them all up correctly to make the best/deadliest class combos, which is always fun to explore. The class trees are big, so there is a lot to choose from. I also enjoy the sheer number of classes, vs. games like WoW that have so few. Has a lot of potential and good elements mixed in from many successful (or unsuccessful, but had the right idea) MMOs. Hopefully they will be taking a lot of feedback from players into consideration. It could definitely be something worth ACTUALLY playing at launch, which I rarely say about MMOs I test.

[Phallax]

How long did it takes to get a beta key? I registered early but it was after the beta already started. Will I have to wait for the next phase to get a key?

[Cyrius]

You proved my point exactly....

When it came out AFTER beta it was hard. Betas are generally easier not so much the gameplay but because the XP is usually sky rocketed to promote faster leveling than when its released. Thus easy during beta. Of course over time every game gets easier and easier, thats just MMO life.

Yeah but as per Devs the exp curve is set and won't change. 4 ~5 days to max level, if you want to play this, enjoy your fail game.

[Omnimorph]

If it's 4-5 days max level then would that suggest there's alot of end game content waiting for people?

[Yak]

What cracks me up is people are dying to get a key to this game, just because it's new and sure has the flashy graphics. However, a think some people are missing the point that we are already playing the best MMO out there to date!

[Phallax]

What cracks me up is people are dying to get a key to this game, just because it's new and sure has the flashy graphics. However, a think some people are missing the point that we are already playing the best MMO out there to date!

An MMO weve already played and gets boring quick, specially knowing its going to stop at Velious...

[Devil]

An MMO weve already played and gets boring quick, specially knowing its going to stop at Velious...

x2

Rift is pretty fun so far. Lots of class combos to choose from and advancing up multiple skill trees will make each player vastly different from the next.

[quellren]

I know it sounds really pessimistic, but that just means it'll take a little longer to work out the min/max setup just like the WoW talent points.

It wont be but a few weeks after the first guild starts raiding before there's a guide on the Rift forums about how if you build your character in any way other than X, with maybe some variance for skill a or b, you are 'fail' and should just die.

[Nakara]

itt poopsockers rag on 'casual' mmos

[stormlord]

Some people made comments that Rift feels too easy and I want to address that.

I think of myself as a hardcore, always have. I was here in 1999 in march. I wasn't in raid guilds until 2010, but I played this game off/on for a decade and even had a character on Sullon Zek, the king of badass pvp. I like how there're no in-game maps outside cities. I like how people depend on each other. I like how the death penalty gives you a real reason to be cautious. If it wasn't for the penalty, I don't think I'd have that second thought that says: Hey there, cowboy, don't you think you should move, say, slower? You've been here before! Ouch. That hurt! Lets not make the same mistake again, aright? I like how when I get ahead of myself I get slapped by a wanderer or a spell that won't stick or several misses. It's not mainstream, it's tough. But I like because I believe that without pain there's no gain (ignoring that this is just a game, for a moment).

Now... having said all that and established that I'm one of you, I'd like to change direction. I like single player role-playing games. I like single player games. I like them because they can be paused and you can save/load (is a bonus, but I'm not against people who keep track of how many times they've done it or even forbid themselves from doing it). This ability to pause gameplay meshes well with real life. I also like it when I can play an MMO and be semi-afk at the same time. I sometimes need the ability to 'pause'.

On project1999 only a couple classes can 'pause'. The necromancer and sk and monk can feign death. This is the closest thing to pause I know of. And the solo-classes offer a lot of convenience for someone who is going to be semi-afk on a routine basis. Classes like magician, druid, necromancer are at the top of the list. Rangers, Sk's and paladins and monks can also solo, but to a lesser degree. Even warriors and rogues and clerics can solo, but they do not do it well. I think there should be a disclaimer for project1999 that read something like: Classes other than magician/druid/necromancer and other solo-friendly classes are not for the fainthearted.

Lets face the facts, many people on here have families and a RL. They got things going on. If you're tied to your group and they expect you to be there then you're not as free to leave the keyboard if something comes up. Sure, you can run off if your wife wants you, but you'll earn an undeserved reputation as a ninja afker. Bottom line, many of us need a game, whether it's an MMO or not, that allows us to be semi-afk. We need to be able to 'pause' it, just like we can pause a single player game. Without a feature like this, it's a lot more difficult to live comfortably without feeling torn.

I think this is the most important game changing shift going on. The move away from stringent group-based high-penalty gameplay to a more relaxed atmosphere where one can solo or tune out (temporarily) was brought about by the mainstreaming of MMORPGs. Great numbers of people were introduced to mmorpgs via meridian 59, everquest, diablo, tibia, ultima online, rubies of eventide, daoc, asheron's call, star wars galaxies, anarchy online, diablo II, runescape, lineage I/II, the sims online, second life, project entropia, a tale in the desert, final fantasy Xi, eve-online, city of heroes, everquest 2, and finally, world of warcraft (2005). This leaves out a lot of other free-to-play games and more recent releases. During this entire time the MMORPG market was expanding, and only recently has started to reach a limit. So lots of people joined our membership ranks. The larger the population has grown the more apparent it has become that high penalty and/or high difficulty and/or group-dependent gameplay does not mesh well with RL. Many of these people are parents. Additionally, many who played the original everquest are now older and want something less demanding.

So we have this increasing need for convenience in the games we play, but it should not be interpreted as care-bearing or the dumbing down of these games. Rather, it should be seen as the business shaping its product for its consumer. In this case, we're referring to the mainstream business and the mainstream consumer. The way I see it's that if an MMORPG wants to penalize me, I'm fine with that. But if all of them are like that, then that's wrong. In fact, I think most MMORPGs should have a high amount of convenience built in. I think that the running trend would back this up. Most modern MMORPGs offer conveniences not seen in older variants. Most people want convenience over high penalty/high difficult gameplay and that's because most of us do not want to compromise our real lives. You can't rip people from their real lives for very long. It might be acceptable for a niche audience that makes the necessary compromises (college kids, single, etc), but not for a mainstream player. I think the expansion of the market is good for everyone because it encourages cross-talk and keeps things interesting. The money and ideas will move around more.

Saying it's dumbed down is like saying that the business manager that can only play 1 hour and a half TOPS and has 2 kids is somehow dumb. That person is plenty smart, but they have commitments too. If they could throw it all away somehow they'd be here competing with the best players. But alas, life can be a biatch.

This is how I see it. I do no think games have been dumbed down, so to speak. I do not think that this tendency for a game to feel 'easier' is bad. As long as we have something like project1999 or dark fall online or you name it, then there's plenty of room for everyone on earth to be themselves. No need whatsoever to fret.

[Crone]

Problem is, we want something new. I love p99, but that doesn't mean it's the only game I ever want to play. We all like new. WoW had a tough challenge of catering to the "casuals", and also to the hardcore.

They provided ways for the casuals to have their stuff through heroics, and maybe some raids, and then the hardcore to have their stuff as well through the hardmode raids.

The problem? That business manager wants to be able to play a hour and a half, like you mentioned, and make the same progress, and have the same gear as the guy that spends 40 hours a week raiding and/or prepping for his hard mode raids.

If you don't give them the same loot, now the casuals are somehow gimped and not as good as the hardcore people, and then you open that can of worms and debate over that.

I suppose they did it somewhat well. The badge system means you can play an hour and a half a night, and get some gear over time. Will take some time, but you can slowly collect those badges.

[quellren]

I think Blizzard did an amazing job with WoW. It's really pure genius with the different levels of difficulty like hard mode or things like the Sartherion fight with leaving more drakes up and rewarding better loot.

My *only* real gripe with WoW is the community. In my mind it is the premiere example of 'internet anonymity gives people license to be complete assholes' syndrome.
I've said it before, it's really the reason I left WoW.
I can't begin to fathom what switch in peoples' minds doesn't get tripped and they think it's OK to tell someone to 'die in a fire' or 'go slit your wrists' because they developed a video game character in a non-traditional way.
I'd be thrilled beyond belief if somehow Rift managed to NOT become infected with that culture.

[Itchybottom]

Any MMO ends up being cookie-cutter because of game balance, people don't like to lose. With the amount of time invested in such a game, you always need to min/max your gear and strategy. People always want better gear than the next person, and they want it to be visually thrown in everyone's face that they've worked hard (or have powerful friends) for their loot. We all know this type of person, even if you have better gear than them, they're going to resort to saying you have no life or insult your parentage. The biggest challenge that MMO face is attention span of the target customer demographic; most don't want hardcore gaming, they want something they can do with their friends (or a place they can make new friends) and nerd rage behind a keyboard without repercussion. Travel time without danger (or too much danger) drives people away. Slow leveling drives people away (unless you like to parade around your wasted time as "earned", which is a different demographic than profitable long-term customers) Long quest lines with a lot of reading, drives people away. Why bother reading a quest when you can just point your browser at a wiki or an Allakhazam-like site and follow the steps? "Hard core" MMO gaming, isn't profitable, and for good reason. Even the most complex games were never really meant to last the span of multiple years, not without fresh opponents and changing dynamics.

I really hope this game is somewhere between Warhammer Online and Vanguard in the end; but it's looking like another investor push to be the next World of Warcraft. The fan boys will ruin it though, the die-hard fans will always praise the developers for mediocre work and the trolls will pummel the community until all you can read is some Internet meme and long winded replies about why the game doesn't suck vs why the game is going to fail. Developers would be better off with "Lets play" video series, rather than early open betas, they're just too contentious to get a real feel of where the game needs to go.

[Rahnza]

Itchybottom how did you get so skilled at writing so much but saying nothing?

[Uberom]

The flashy graphics look nice. The world "rift" spawns look, lame. I think it will be fun for like, a week. After that, I'm not going to waste my time killing AI that spawns repeatedly in different places.

I guess the thing that most people are looking forward to in this game is world PVP, with the distraction of these PVE rifts. For instance, care bear player A gets off on killing Rift mobs, while psychopathic player B gets off on hunting player A while he's distracted.

I'm the player B type of person, but I see that trick losing its fun factor pretty quick.

If you guys are looking for raw PVP, the best PVP game ever made was Shadowbane. It was brought down last summer, but they are working on an emulator known as Play to Crush.

Probably the second most addicting game I've ever played, next to EQ, and slightly more fun due to the PVP factor.

Other than that, Rift = WoW + Aion + some silver lining. That's what I'm seeing here.

[Uberom]

I think Blizzard did an amazing job with WoW. It's really pure genius with the different levels of difficulty like hard mode or things like the Sartherion fight with leaving more drakes up and rewarding better loot.

My *only* real gripe with WoW is the community. In my mind it is the premiere example of 'internet anonymity gives people license to be complete assholes' syndrome.
I've said it before, it's really the reason I left WoW.
I can't begin to fathom what switch in peoples' minds doesn't get tripped and they think it's OK to tell someone to 'die in a fire' or 'go slit your wrists' because they developed a video game character in a non-traditional way.
I'd be thrilled beyond belief if somehow Rift managed to NOT become infected with that culture.

So, you ragequit WoW because a 12 year old told you your "non-traditional" level 30 melee spec Mage sucked ass?

Lulz.

[quellren]

So, you ragequit WoW because a 12 year old told you your "non-traditional" level 30 melee spec Mage sucked ass?

Lulz.

It's been said about a million times that even a retarded, one-armed monkey could get to 80 in WoW, it's not hard.
I could counter with what classes and levels I played to, but you'd just throw out the 'Prove it' bullshit, and of course I can't because my account has been inactive for over a year now, so the WoWArmory is as well.

Don't you have anything better to do than troll the forums?

Oh, right. Nevermind. maybe in another 48 hours you will.

[Nakara]

So, you ragequit WoW because a 12 year old told you your "non-traditional" level 30 melee spec Mage sucked ass?

Lulz.

nice try at being witty maybe next time

[Uberom]

nice try at being witty maybe next time

Witty? Apparently you don't get my humor. I say shit on the forums to make MYSELF laugh. I don't give a flying fuck whether other people think its witty or not.

Was a mere jest at the 'supposed' reason he quit WoW. I'm sure there are better reasons that he isn't disclosing in his post, such as: fucking repetitive gameplay. That's a huge reason I quit WoW.

And to Quellren, I don't for a moment think you didn't get to 80 or that you weren't decent at the game. Again, was a mere jest at your statement, is all.

And for the record, I think I'm down to about...18 hours? It has been quite the horrible experience.

[Cyrius]

If it's 4-5 days max level then would that suggest there's alot of end game content waiting for people?

Yes! The total of 1 raid encounter. So every "hardcore" player will be done with the content in 1, maybe 2 months. Fully equiped and all that. Unless they release a expansion every 2 months it will get realy boring for people that play alot. Wich is why i gave up hope on this game.

[Uberom]

Yes! The total of 1 raid encounter. So every "hardcore" player will be done with the content in 1, maybe 2 months. Fully equiped and all that. Unless they release a expansion every 2 months it will get realy boring for people that play alot.

Yea but not every game is based on huge amounts of end-game content. For example, and I like to bring this game up a lot, Shadowbane had dog shit for "end-game" content and items. But that was a game that didn't rely on that type of stuff. The mechanics of its character customization and world pvp made the game enjoyable until the servers went down.

Some games don't rely on mass content to occupy its user. Shadowbane.

Other games have to continually produce new content to interest its users, because the game mechanics are lacking. World of Warcraft.

So the question is: Is Rift going to have dynamic, unique mechanics like Shadowbane, or repetitive stat building conquests like WoW?

[Cyrius]

Answer: WoW.

[Uberom]

Beta request withdrawn.

/thread

[quellren]

Was a mere jest at the 'supposed' reason he quit WoW. I'm sure there are better reasons that he isn't disclosing in his post, such as: fucking repetitive gameplay. That's a huge reason I quit WoW.

And to Quellren, I don't for a moment think you didn't get to 80 or that you weren't decent at the game. Again, was a mere jest at your statement, is all.


Ok, I see it now. No harm no foul.

To continue the thread jack, I personally find it odd that people keep throwing this 'WoW is too repetitive' idea around. I completely agree that the process of "gind instances to get better gear which allows you to grind harder instances to get better gear to grind harder instances.....ad infinitum" gets insanely old, but I'm coming to the conclusion that unless you can parade through town with all the gear that few others have, what is the point of an MMO exactly? The only way to prove you and some friends killed that badass dragon deep in the wherever, is to saunter through town with the cloak you looted hanging on your shoulders.

To be fair, WoW had (and still does) invent some of the most unique encounters I've ever seen in any video game, MMO or single player. I found at least one major boss encounter in each expansion a real blast.
Some of my favorites include:
Garr (Molten Core)
Buru (AQ 20)
Keristraza fight in Nexus (WOTLK
Several of the fights in Nax - some totally blow-

[Devil]

i love how every thread on this forum that is not related to game mechanics of p99 somehow turns into a troll/rant/flame thread that ends up being pages long of pointless arguing that absolutely no one on this forum wants to read.

Rift looks relatively promising. The classes are cool, there are plenty to choose from, and the trees and skills in the game are interesting. Sure, there are things that need to be done with this game just like every game as it enters beta and allows players to test and give feedback. You can only hope with games like this, that the developers will at least listen to some of the player feedback and respond by making some changes to the game that the overall community see as necessary. Part of beta is to tweak things as well as change mechanics of the game if they don't turn out the way the devs intended once actual people are playing the game.

I liked WAR at launch but after a couple weeks of playing it I was bored out of my mind and hated most all things about the game. It took them way too long to fix issues that should have been right at launch. They failed. Will this game do the same thing? Maybe? Maybe not. They have some good ideas that they have taken from multiple games and combined them in Rift. We will see how things go. People that take anything from BETA 1 of a game as "how things are going to be when the game is live" are retarded, simply put. Don't give the game a bad rap so early on, it ruins it for potential players who are weak minded and easily swayed by MMO "enthusiasts" who think they know something about video games and post how shitty their beta experience was on a forum. I'll bet more than 50% of the beta applicants for games like this playtest the game for hours and don't actually post 1 single bit of feedback on the forums or report any known bugs or glitches like the devs ask. They just play to see how fast they can level in the game and then if they dislike the way things look (in BETA 1 mind you) they go post these flame threads shit talking the game because it doesn't meet their expectations of a game they believe should be "finished" at the point of beta. Does this really help the game reach its launch potential? Probably not.

[Uberom]

That is a good point. WoW did practically invent the wheel when it comes to new ways to do boss fights. The simple tank and spank method turned into strategic multi dimensional fights. Eventually, once you've learned them, they are essentially the same thing. Move here, move there, DPS, hold DPS, target this, target that. The thing that kills me is they come out with new bosses that have similar fight mechanics, reskin the boss, throw him in another instance, make him a little harder, and then drop loot that is similar quality, but just +10 stats on top of the current best in slot. You never actually get better at the game in any way, your gear doesn't really get better, either. You just scale in numbers, like inflation.

WoW has sort of plateaued since BC. It's been getting worse ever since.

[quellren]

I agree with all that ^^.
I enjoyed early WOLTK, I thought there were some neat ideas, but yes, starting with the abortion that was Sunwell Keep, WoW raiding is on a downhill.

I'm looking forward to the day when game coding is good enough to make large raid targets have some adaptability to the encounter.
Even things as simple as a dragon 'realizing' that the AoE fearbomb totally FUBARS the raid force, and does it more.... or 'watches' the MT heals and targets the healers that are easily crushable.

Anything that makes those raid assist addons worthless and requires that raiding be more than a rehearsed dance would be so sweet.

[Cyrius]

This has nothing to do with beeing in beta or not. The Devs statements are clear, exp curve will not be modified, and the content is also pretty clear.

They have some good ideas that they have taken from multiple games and combined them in Rift.

That right here is the K.O. criteria. Where is the "new"? Everyone can go and copy others.

I'm looking forward to the day when game coding is good enough to make large raid targets have some adaptability to the encounter.
Even things as simple as a dragon 'realizing' that the AoE fearbomb totally FUBARS the raid force, and does it more.... or 'watches' the MT heals and targets the healers that are easily crushable.

Already possible. Just no one seems to want to do it, because no one wants to try something new that may cost money, instead of pouring in millions for copy pasta work.

[xshayla701]

copy pasta

pasta??!

[Devil]

"New" material isn't necessarily the best route. You can take a look at plenty of games that have failed terribly in terms of playerbase/monetary gain standpoints when they have tried to reinvent the wheel with MMOs. At least respect the fact that some developers understand "if it works don't fix it," there were plenty of games that came out that had good ideas or certain ambitious elements to their game, but overall they weren't enough to keep the game afloat. If they can take some of these ideas, as well as reuse some of the ones we have already seen work in games like WoW, good for them. They can give you a different, yet familiar gameplay experience. Some people are just tired of WoW because it's WoW, hell I might even play WoW again if it was the same game UI/set up in a different world/setting. A change of scenery is nice. Different classes are nice. Some gameplay changes are great, you just have to know where to draw the line of ambitious MMO development vs. too over the top for most of the MMO population. They are used to games like WoW, that's what is familiar to them, and in many cases thats the kind of game they want to see. I'm not talking about a straight up clone either, obviously. Rift is a LOT different than WoW, but you can see where they used some of the same UI ideas, stylistic ideas, gameplay mechanics, but it's in no way a WoW clone or a clone of any other game.

[RocketMoose]

"New" material isn't necessarily the best route. You can take a look at plenty of games that have failed terribly in terms of playerbase/monetary gain standpoints when they have tried to reinvent the wheel with MMOs. At least respect the fact that some developers understand "if it works don't fix it," there were plenty of games that came out that had good ideas or certain ambitious elements to their game, but overall they weren't enough to keep the game afloat. If they can take some of these ideas, as well as reuse some of the ones we have already seen work in games like WoW, good for them. They can give you a different, yet familiar gameplay experience. Some people are just tired of WoW because it's WoW, hell I might even play WoW again if it was the same game UI/set up in a different world/setting. A change of scenery is nice. Different classes are nice. Some gameplay changes are great, you just have to know where to draw the line of ambitious MMO development vs. too over the top for most of the MMO population. They are used to games like WoW, that's what is familiar to them, and in many cases thats the kind of game they want to see. I'm not talking about a straight up clone either, obviously. Rift is a LOT different than WoW, but you can see where they used some of the same UI ideas, stylistic ideas, gameplay mechanics, but it's in no way a WoW clone or a clone of any other game.

Everyone beware of this scammer Stay FAR FAR away from him.

[Cyrius]

The real issue is, that games like WoW made MMOs juvenile. Everything gets handed to you more or less. So people got used to log in, click click click oh i am a half god yay!

So if you try something new where people would actualy have to think, and not follow glowing dots on your minimaps it gets too much for them. Californication! The red hot was right, its happening all over the world right now.

[Nakara]

The real issue is, that games like WoW made MMOs juvenile. Everything gets handed to you more or less. So people got used to log in, click click click oh i am a half god yay!


you say this like it's a bad thing. the majority of people don't want to poopsock, they want to log in for a few minutes and actually be able to play.

[girth]

Everything gets handed to you

you say this like it's a bad thing.

Explains a lot. Why are you playing EQ?

[Nakara]

i dont recall referencing myself in that whole 1 line of my post. i know its hard to read that much.

[Crone]

i dont recall referencing myself in that whole 1 line of my post. i know its hard to read that much.

So are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you actually support it? A certain level of poopsock is just fine.

The funny thing is, back in Classic, I was never part of a raiding guild. Though I played the entire time, I didn't raid until PoP. So I'd say, there was plenty to do in the game besides poopsocking raids.

Maybe the caliber of gamer is just higher these days, and can burn through content faster than they ever could before?

[Cyrius]

you say this like it's a bad thing. the majority of people don't want to poopsock, they want to log in for a few minutes and actually be able to play.

LOL Camping a mob for hours is not a challange, even thou some people on this server may consider it that way. And yes, it is a bad thing that there is no challange.

[Cyrius]

Maybe the caliber of gamer is just higher these days, and can burn through content faster than they ever could before?

Quite the contrary, they want everything handed to them and don't want to be made to think at all. When we fought all this encounters back in the days when they were released we did not have "guides" and "maps" and all that shit. We made those things our selfs in guild efforts. Tactical discussions for days on forums, endless hours of trying to kill 1 boss mob etc.. It was much different then the games now a days where you have to do nothing but open up your minimap, follow blinking dots, try a boss 4 ~5 times until you beat it or at least have a working strat that will get you the kill in the next ~2 kills.

I find it sad that there is ZERO challange in all those games that get released now a days. And exploring those small worlds is also not realy something that will keep you entertained for more then a day or two.

I just wish they would put more thought into game developement again. It is all about "OMG look that pretty GFX!!!!" and not about gameplay at all anymore.

[Uberom]

A lot of it has to do with audience. These new MMO's are aimed to entertain 10 year olds with ADD, and they do a pretty good job. Those 10 year olds grow up to be 18 year olds with ADD, who expect to play an MMO that is similar to what they have always known.

I tell my friends this all the time. The MMO genre has been tainted, and it probably will never go back to what we remember it as, difficult. Vanilla WoW was legit, but those expansions really softened the game, and the community. Now that people know what a smooth, easy, carefree MMO feels like, they don't like it when they try a difficult one.

I think there is still a market for difficult MMO's, though. SOE is working on "Everquest Next", a rework of the EQ intellectual entity. I have no details on it, but we can only hope...

[Yak]

The few hours that I played Rift, I was thinking about EQ the entire time. It's really sad that MMO companies just want to make MMO's easy and try to be the next WOW. The only company appealing to the hard core is Aventurine. Dark Fall Online is not for everyone like EQ by any means. However, this company understands you don't need 12 million people to make money and and do well if you have a niche market.

[Aadill]

EQ and AO were the only MMOs I ever cared to play. Upon taking up a trial of WoW I found it so incredibly dull that I quit.

What bothered me in WoW more than anything were the pop culture references in a fantasy setting. If I want to immerse myself in a multiplayer game of FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: e-mail messages that my aunt sends me, I'll go play WoW for the low-brow humor. Both classic EQ and classic AO have an atmosphere that really makes you feel like you're part of the world. Eventually both Sony and Funcom fell away from that and the games no longer have the same appeal. I do blame the market for MMOs going from actual interesting lore to money-makers. Even single player games still try to tell a story - what are MMOs trying to do at this point?

[Cyrius]

SOE is working on "Everquest Next", a rework of the EQ intellectual entity. I have no details on it, but we can only hope...

Yeah this is my "last hope" also. But i doubt it will be released within 2011 ;). So it will be quite a wait.

[Cyrius]

Upon taking up a trial of WoW I found it so incredibly dull that I quit.

LOL exactly what i did, started WoW when it was released with a couple friends (they had the special edition with the 10 day trial in it). I played 4 hours, was a lvl 13 or so undead mage, specced for ice and fire? And solo'd a lvl 14 elite mob. When i asked my friends (wich been playing a few weeks longer, it took them a while to convince me ;)) if this mob was considered difficulty, and they replied "its a group mob", i clicked X, uninstalled the game, and threw the 10 day trial CD in the trash.

[Yak]

Not only that but who's to say that Sony won't fuck up Everquest Next. I have no faith in any game companies at this point. Remember years ago when Sony had the same idea and created EQ2! What about Vanguard and all it's bugs that killed it. For now I am just going to enjoy EQ. If something better comes along then great, if not I have EQ Classic for now.

[Cyrius]

Yeah i agree, but at least i have hopes that they get it right the 3rd time they try it. 3rd is a charm no? ;)

[Yak]

Yeah i agree, but at least i have hopes that they get it right the 3rd time they try it. 3rd is a charm no? ;)

LOL, true 3 times is a charm!!!

[Crone]

And I'm on the totally opposite end of the spectrum... lol

I got into EQ2, and played that for about a year, before I switched over to WoW, and have played that for years. Took quite a few breaks, but seem to always go back. But as quickly as I pick it back up, I'll drop it again as well. Most recently.. I came back in August, got a couple level 80s, and was all pumped to go to Blizzcon, I went, and I've logged in once since I got back. For some reason, going to Blizzcon lost me all interest in WoW, and so I haven't been back. Dropped it that quick, with no intentions of going back to it for Cata either.

Then again, I quit P99 back in March, and I'm now back. Hopefully for a while this time.

I loved WoW. All the raids I went on, and the guilds that I was a part of. I loved all of it. I'd venture to guess I've raided more in WoW than any other game, including EQ. Played EQ way more, but was never at a raiding level very much.

The ramping up to the raid stage is a common complaint of WoW, that it's too easy. However, coming back to the game, no guild, no friends really, I appreciated it. Being able to just spam heroics for sweet gear, whcih allowed me in on pick up raids to get more gear. It made it super easy to gear up and get back into the game. I don't really see this as a problem.

[Aadill]

before I switched over to WoW, and have played that for years. Took quite a few breaks, but seem to always go back. But as quickly as I pick it back up, I'll drop it again as well.

See, that's the problem - it doesn't hold your interest except just long enough to get your next set of gear... just long enough to pay Blizzard some money for your account to remain active.

[Taluvill]

I know this is a tad offtopic, but someone mentioned darkfall. I wish it was a bit more polished at release. I played it for a few months with loads of gear, close to max archery and some spell stuff, and was in 1000 man raids with hyperion and stuff.

Was good, and the crafting system was insane, but if you weren't killing someone the game was so incredibly dull, and you couldn't go kill someone without having a whole group with you. Cool game, wish it had a polished release or i'd seriously consider never leaving. Very cool interguild politics/drama/land control type thing, player run mmo/economy.

[zorro]

I'm the type of gamer that does not give a shit about how long or difficult is to level up as I will just grind it out to the max level before I start getting the best available gear. I'm a raider through and through. I started the beta since the beginning of the beta and here is what I have done and seen. I picked a champion to start with and a friend I duo'd with picked a cleric.

The first starting area is the tutorial zone (it is instanced to control the amount of noobs stealing mobs). Many of the quests can relate to World of Warcraft as you kill this many of these mobs and collect this then return. The quest givers have a "!" above their name. The map shows where the quest can be accomplished. Once you finish the quest the turn in guy will have a check mark above their name. After you finish the quest, the quest guy will usually give another quest to move to the next area that provides harder quests.

Once you are about level 6-7 then you will move out of the newbie zone and into the real world. The quests are very similar to WoW. It is usually killing a # of mobs, collecting items that drop off of mobs, or collecting items from the ground, and then going and kill the named. Once you complete quests you receive experience, platinum, and gear.

Grey gear - no stats, Green - stats, Blue - rarer and better stats, purple - epic and fantastic stats. When a uncommon-epic item drops all group members select need, greed, or pass and it automatically rolls. There is bind on pickup, bind on equip gear items.

I forget what level, but probably around level 8-10 I was able to choose my second character class. My first was a champion(dps) and my second was a warlord(tank). Each level receives 1 talent point that you put in your talent trees. Each class you receive you can put in 1 point into either class' talent tree.

I recieved my third class after completing a level 18 quest (void knight). These are great to create a unique character. If you go to your class trainer (warrior trainer) you can buy another soul. This means that you can have a tank spec with a warlord talent tree and another spec such as DPS where i put all my talents in the champion talent tree. You have an ability to cast a spell which switches between the soul of your choosing. (if you are a DPS class, such as a ranger/bard spec you can switch between a ranger and a bard whenever you like; depending on how you place your talents you can be a bard with a pet even)

The cleric and I duo'd to level 20 (max beta level) in about 13hours; everything is soloable but will take a little longer because you have to drink to get HP or mana. The main city contains class trainers, trade skills trainers, vendors, bankers, auctioneers and a porter to port to different places that was not available to the beta.

Once we were 20 we went to the first instance. The instance has some unique encounters. The first named hits really hard and casts an aoe. The 2nd named has an event where you kill 3 named 1 at a time, then you kill all 3 at the same time. The last named has a deadly aoe that is avoidable only if you run to the protecting ghost when it spawns right before the aoe.
Rifts spawn anywhere at any time. The rift spawns mobs in 5 waves, with 2 names. If the rift is kept open the attackers will spawn and run through the roads and take over towns if not stopped.

TLDR

-Quest/ leveling system very similar to WoW
-Easy to level
-Unique class/talent system
-Receive gear/plat from quests as you level
-Uncommon,Rare,Epic gear - Bind on pickup / Bind on equip
-VERY good graphics
-Hardly any bugs - very polished
-Unique encounters in the instance
-Auctioneer/mounts/trade skills/instances
-PVP battlegrounds (could not experience is in beta)
-Gear well itemized so far
-Rifts form anywhere and spawn mobs in 5 waves
-Attackers spawn if a rift is not closed (will attack/take over towns)

I will not give up on this game yet because of the similarities to WoW. I enjoyed WoW when it first came out until the first expansion destroyed all the time I spent farming raid instances for gear. I need to find out how the end-game is and how the PVP is. I do not give a shit how quick it takes to level as I would just grind it out anyway.

[Crone]

Pretty good summary.

My one gripe right now is that I wish they would tell you that every tree out of the Warrior souls, isn't for tanking. I picked Champion, fully expecting to being able to tank with it. Come to find out, not at all, and it's a DPS tree. I learned that Reaver is the Main tank role, while Paladin does off tanking. How'd Warlord do? That seemed to supportish to be a main tank, but maybe it was pretty good?

[zorro]

Warlord was a good tank, but I didn't try out any of the others except champion. After I switched to a shield my armor almost doubled and tanking skills increased dramatically. I had a single target taunt with a 6sec cooldown and an aoe taunt with a 1min cooldown. At level 22 I get an aoe attack that causes an increase in threat as well.

[Crone]

Ya, I had no taunts at all which was my first tip off. Sounds like Warlord is a sweet tank.

[zorro]

Taunt was badass, pulls mobs to you even if they are like 15feet away. IT ACTUALLY WORKS! Some mobs become immune to taunt if you use it too much. (thats the only explanation i could come up with when mobs were tauntable, then become immune for a period, and then tauntable again) And then some of the named were totally immune and just had to spam threat increasing abilities.

[Crone]

I got to level 17 on my Champion.. didn't play all that much Sunday, as it was discouraging that it was all going to end.

But again I agree with your statements that while very similar to WoW, it isn't WoW and that's what I care about.

[Cyrius]

As far as i know there is exactly 1 raid encounter.

[Crone]

And that's confirmed to still be the only one come release?

[Phallax]

As far as i know there is exactly 1 raid encounter.

By your theory

West Cabilis
East Cabilis
Field of Bone
Kurn's Tower
Firiona Vie
Lake of Ill Omen
Warsliks Woods
Dreadlands
Temple of Droga
Swamp of no Hope
Kaesora

Will be the only zones once Kunark is released...

[stormlord]

The real issue is, that games like WoW made MMOs juvenile. Everything gets handed to you more or less. So people got used to log in, click click click oh i am a half god yay!

So if you try something new where people would actualy have to think, and not follow glowing dots on your minimaps it gets too much for them. Californication! The red hot was right, its happening all over the world right now.So I take it you're hardcore. In my book, hardcore players like hardcore features. No in-game map. Dangerous travel. No quest indicators. You have to manually talk to the non-players to get information and start quests. Death-penalty. Instant travel isn't free (something like ultima online). Etc. All of these features require more time from the player. And not all hardcore players will raid. Many of them prefer soloing/grouping. By and large, I consider myself hardcore because I like hardcore features. The difference between me and you is that I recognize I'm niche. I'm a minority. You don't. You think that this is some kind of conspiracy to dumb games down when in reality all this shows is that you're a minority. If you can stop pretending everyone else is like you, you might find some peace. That's how I got over it. I just accepted that I'm a minority.

Half of the battle is just accepting who you're. The rest of the battle is setting your expectations in a reasonable way. Over time I've become a little more mainstream, though. I have come to appreciate convenience features a heck of a lot more than I did 5 years ago. The difference is that now I understand that people have real lives and they can't be hooked to a computer when RL calls. MMORPGs need a pause button.

There's also a historical point that I should make. It has to do with preferences in RPGs. Something I think is important to see is how some people prefer questing over killing things. I refer to Black Isle Studios. They were involved a series of games. When they created these games that approached it from a quest versus combat perspective. For example, when they made Baldur's Gate I/II they did so with the expectation that it would be 50 quest and 50 combat. Contrastingly, when they made Icewind Dale I/II it was 75 combat 25 quest. Planescape: Torment was created with the goal that it would be 75 quest 25 combat. This idea of making a game based on quests or combat is easily seen elsewhere. In Diablo I/II, for instance, you see a game dominated by combat. In many of the latest MMORPGs, you see a game dominated by quest-lines and intermittent combat. In the first version of everquest, you see a game dominated by combat.

Whether the combat or the quests are interesting is another story (boring = grind). Doing quests one after the other can become a grind for me when I do it in groups because in groups I don't get immersed and don't enjoy the atmosphere and feel rushed. Grinding happens when we become bored and when what we do tends to be repetitive. When I start feeling like a grunt then everything is blurred and it necessarily becomes a grind. So it depends on interest levels. If you're doing something you don't find fun it will become a grind. Getting rid of grind is a matter of exploring yourself and playing the right game.

The idea that you must find out what game is best for you leads to a truth much more enlightening. That's that, historically, rpgs can be seen as quest heavy or combat heavy or a combination. And that a player needs to understand what they want out of a game. We should never assume that there's one game for all people. And that's the whole point behind my post(s) in this thread. There's a mainstream where you have an overall average that everyone agrees to, but there's a niche market for people who deviate. If you understand that people are different then you will understand that your disagreements do not have to be an end.

My point for you is that your disagreement with the mainstream does not have to be the end. It can be a moment where you realize a world of possibility. There're niche markets. There're numerous single player rpgs that you can mod and customize for yourself. There're small scale mmorpgs with many different flavors. You can use your disagreements to argue and complain and cause trouble or you can accept that you're different and find your cup of tea. It's inevitable that you will find your cup of tea, but you must learn who you're first.

As for me... lots of people have claimed Planescape: Torment is the best rpg ever made. They worship it. So I tried it and was disappointed because I didn't enjoy the quest heavy gameplay. I felt held back. I just wanted to grab an axe and chop everyones head off and take over the entire place and do everything my way and butcher everyone who feels differently. The game felt like a prison to me. I quit. Moral of the story is I don't think I like quest-heavy gameplay. I love killing sh**. I love to go out there without a compass and just raise hell. The other lesson is I don't think there's an rpg that can be the single best rpg for everyone.

[Cyrius]

By your theory

West Cabilis
East Cabilis
Field of Bone
Kurn's Tower
Firiona Vie
Lake of Ill Omen
Warsliks Woods
Dreadlands
Temple of Droga
Swamp of no Hope
Kaesora

Will be the only zones once Kunark is released...

No, it is a Devs statement of the RIFT forums. Did not miss you Phallax.

[Phallax]

No, it is a Devs statement of the RIFT forums. Did not miss you Phallax.

Yes you did. Dont be butthurt because I bring reality.

Beta is named BETA for a reason. It goes through stages, stuff gets added, changed etc etc.

[Cyrius]

So I take it you're hardcore. In my book, hardcore players like hardcore features. No in-game map. Dangerous travel. No quest indicators. You have to manually talk to the non-players to get information and start quests. Death-penalty. Instant travel isn't free (something like ultima online). Etc. All of these features require more time from the player. And not all hardcore players will raid. Many of them prefer soloing/grouping. By and large, I consider myself hardcore because I like hardcore features. The difference between me and you is that I recognize I'm niche. I'm a minority. You don't. You think that this is some kind of conspiracy to dumb games down when in reality all this shows is that you're a minority. If you can stop pretending everyone else is like you, you might find some peace. That's how I got over it. I just accepted that I'm a minority.

Half of the battle is just accepting who you're.

No not necessarily, but i want to be able to get some challange if i choose to. If you want to play a ROLE PLAY GAME freaking role play and not let the computer do everything for you. Simple as that. And i do not need to pretend everyone else is like me, because i know they are not. Good for you if you are a miniority, but i require a game to challange me. That does not mean i need huge punishments or no ingame maps, it simply means i dont want everything handed to me. You could draw ingame maps once you explored that area maybe, or be able to set PoIs on your maps where you saw a NPC or a potential quest giver, there are so many freaking possibilities. But no, you get a minimap with flashing icons that show you exactly where you have to go, take you by the hand like a 10 year old to complete a quest. That is not my idea of fun, its stupifying.

[Cyrius]

Yes you did. Dont be butthurt because I bring reality.

Beta is named BETA for a reason. It goes through stages, stuff gets added, changed etc etc.

The content is made, beta is a stage where you do not add 100 new zones after you had it. Obviously you have zero clue how game developement works.

And i am just quoting what the devs said they want on RELEASE. The exp curve will not be modified (Dev statement) and there will be 1 raid encounter (Dev statement).

But hey, you always belived what you wanted mister butthurt.

[Phallax]

The content is made, beta is a stage where you do not add 100 new zones after you had it. Obviously you have zero clue how game developement works.

And i am just quoting what the devs said the want on RELEASE. The exp curve will not be modified (Dev statement) and there will be 1 raid encounter (Dev statement).

But hey, you always belived what you wanted mister butthurt.

Everything Ive ever Beta'd has when through stages where stuff is added. EVERY BETA. Just because its "made" doesnt mean its live to the public, just like how Rogean has Beta RoK atm.

So, obviously you have 0 clue on how game development works.

Cool, if the Devs say it, it must be 100% set in stone right? They have beta for a reason, to see what works and what needs changed, what the community likes and much much more. The Beta is VERY rarely, if ever, what is final release.

I just dont get why youd come in and shit up a thread because you feel the game isnt YOUR taste of games. If people want to beta and play a new game, fucking let them.

Or you can just keep arguing the fact and let people keep seeing why you are one of the biggest joke GM/Guide wtfe you claim yourself as, p99 has had.

[Crone]

Maybe they expect to release with only 1 raid zone, but do we know how big it's going to be? Do we know how long it'll take to master? If the devs remain even half as responsive to player reports/feedback, I don't see only 1 raid zone being in game for very long.

They'll realize that the content is getting burned through, and put in more stuff, or at least give an update of when the new stuff is coming.

[Aadill]

That's how I got over it. I just accepted that I'm a minority.

The game developers didn't want to cater to an audience that didn't speak up.. yeah, you end up being a minority when millions upon millions of people want to sign onto XBox Live and call each other faggots and play horrible quality rap music over their mics.

No one wants to create a good game when there's no one there to urge them on. Finding enough of a market for a niche game that's good enough to push the marketing/accounting department out the window and tell them to fuck the right off is next to impossible because everyone became complacent with crap.

Yeah, maybe hardcore gamers are a minority, but take a look at your words - inferiority complex springs to mind. "We don't matter" isn't what a young bright-eyed dev team wants to hear. Look at P99: You have people doing it for free because they love the idea of recreating something that was monumentally amazing. Even 10 years later we all log on to play this game whether we hate it or not, because it IS hardcore in comparison. A good portion would probably pay for it because Sony shit on everyone with their progression servers, and there isn't anything like this available on the market. A good thing came along and we've finally jumped on the bandwagon.

We have every reason to be disenfranchised - software publishing companies said to sit down when we complained, and we sat down. We lost the right to a share in the market of future video games when everyone stayed hunkered down in their parent's basement to beat Super Mario Bros 2 for the 10th time since they woke up.

[Cyrius]

Well i am quite sure that they will release an expansion rather quickly. But i doubt it will be earlier then 6 months from release.

[Messianic]

yeah, you end up being a minority when millions upon millions of people want to sign onto XBox Live and call each other faggots and play horrible quality rap music over their mics.

rofl


In my younger years when myself and a friend played Starcraft 1, we'd sometimes spend hours on end going into channels specifically to irritate people, yell at them, call them whatever cutting-edge online insults we knew, and make sure you never backed down or talked rationally - just focus on how stupid or unredeemable everyone else was.

I tend to see small survivals of that same experience in every single online game I play. I wonder if people ever get bored of assaulting other people by means of their internet connection :P

[Aadill]

In my younger years when myself and a friend played Starcraft 1, we'd sometimes spend hours on end going into channels specifically to irritate people, yell at them, call them whatever cutting-edge online insults we knew, and make sure you never backed down or talked rationally - just focus on how stupid or unredeemable everyone else was.

You son of a bitch, I remember you! :mad:

Just kidding, I never played Starcraft because I royally suck at RTS.

[Messianic]

You son of a bitch, I remember you! :mad:

Just kidding, I never played Starcraft because I royally suck at RTS.

Srsly.

If I met myself like 10 years ago, I would totally beat the snot out of myself.


Oh, and I suck at RTS too. :P

[stormlord]

No not necessarily, but i want to be able to get some challange if i choose to. If you want to play a ROLE PLAY GAME freaking role play and not let the computer do everything for you. Simple as that. And i do not need to pretend everyone else is like me, because i know they are not. Good for you if you are a miniority, but i require a game to challange me. That does not mean i need huge punishments or no ingame maps, it simply means i dont want everything handed to me. You could draw ingame maps once you explored that area maybe, or be able to set PoIs on your maps where you saw a NPC or a potential quest giver, there are so many freaking possibilities. But no, you get a minimap with flashing icons that show you exactly where you have to go, take you by the hand like a 10 year old to complete a quest. That is not my idea of fun, its stupifying.That's your opinion. I find doing quests over and over with groups to be stupifying. Believe it ir not, but some people think they shouldn't have to make the map or buy one. Some people would rather focus on the rest of the game. A lot of people don't enjoy cartography or map making or traveling blind or doing it with only a compass. It's like /follow in everquest. Most people like it, but some people think it's stupifying. An in-game map that has bells and whistles doesn't make someone dumb if they're using their mental resources elsewhere.

Me and you can sit here all day and talk about how cool games can be without everything in front of us. Without all of our buttons and icons and indicators and audio triggers. Should random maps have an in-game map or should it use fog of war or no in-game map at all? But it would all be for not because we're hardcore. What we like doesn't apply to mainstream. It's apples and oranges. It's a waste of time. Now, if we want to make our own game or we want to help make a niche game then it makes all the sense in the world.

Bottom line, most people want a game they can, literally, pause at any moment. A game where they can make measurable progress. A game that won't require them to compromise their RL to play. Many of these people have significant real-life commitments or they're married too. Some of them just don't have 20+ hours to devote to a game per week. There will always be exceptions, but I think that the MMORPG market as it's makes it pretty clear what most people want. That does not mean there can't be niches! That does not mean that a single guy working a 40 hour per week job can't play a game that demands more from him. Some people are fine with a game that demands their attention and if they leave for 1 min it'll get them killed. But most aren't.

[Cyrius]

You obviously do not get my point. It does not matter, you can have that "pause at any moment" you dont have to do quests with groups or what not. There are so many ways to make a game challanging. Throwing everything at someone for almost no effort is not one of them.

[stormlord]

The game developers didn't want to cater to an audience that didn't speak up.. yeah, you end up being a minority when millions upon millions of people want to sign onto XBox Live and call each other faggots and play horrible quality rap music over their mics.

No one wants to create a good game when there's no one there to urge them on. Finding enough of a market for a niche game that's good enough to push the marketing/accounting department out the window and tell them to fuck the right off is next to impossible because everyone became complacent with crap.

Yeah, maybe hardcore gamers are a minority, but take a look at your words - inferiority complex springs to mind. "We don't matter" isn't what a young bright-eyed dev team wants to hear. Look at P99: You have people doing it for free because they love the idea of recreating something that was monumentally amazing. Even 10 years later we all log on to play this game whether we hate it or not, because it IS hardcore in comparison. A good portion would probably pay for it because Sony shit on everyone with their progression servers, and there isn't anything like this available on the market. A good thing came along and we've finally jumped on the bandwagon.

We have every reason to be disenfranchised - software publishing companies said to sit down when we complained, and we sat down. We lost the right to a share in the market of future video games when everyone stayed hunkered down in their parent's basement to beat Super Mario Bros 2 for the 10th time since they woke up.Crocodile tears. You act like we got no options. One of those options is p1999, like you stated.

Another one is this:
http://www.dawntide.net/

Pretty hardcore. The question is, how will it do when it launches, and will you stand behind it? When games fail, the first thing they do is throw out the hardcore features. It all depends on what we do.

The only thing I don't like about dawntide is that it's pvp-enabled. Pvp MMORPGs don't normally do well.

And we got countless single player RPGs and little known but f2p mmorpgs (like uo emulators). There're also many MUDs, some free and some p2p. They rock in the gameplay department, but the text gfx holds them back.

[KilyenaMage]

The flashy graphics look nice. The world "rift" spawns look, lame. I think it will be fun for like, a week. After that, I'm not going to waste my time killing AI that spawns repeatedly in different places.

I guess the thing that most people are looking forward to in this game is world PVP, with the distraction of these PVE rifts. For instance, care bear player A gets off on killing Rift mobs, while psychopathic player B gets off on hunting player A while he's distracted.

I'm the player B type of person, but I see that trick losing its fun factor pretty quick.

If you guys are looking for raw PVP, the best PVP game ever made was Shadowbane. It was brought down last summer, but they are working on an emulator known as Play to Crush.

Probably the second most addicting game I've ever played, next to EQ, and slightly more fun due to the PVP factor.

Other than that, Rift = WoW + Aion + some silver lining. That's what I'm seeing here.

I'm also waiting for this to go live. Not only is PVP is Shadowbane great, but the level of depth in regards to character development is unequaled.

[RKromwell]

What bothered me in WoW more than anything were the pop culture references in a fantasy setting.


Have you ever looked into the Easter Eggs that you can find in EQ?

[Aadill]

Have you ever looked into the Easter Eggs that you can find in EQ?

The level of subtlety in comparison is glaring.