Wizard, when do they turn the corner?

[Stonewallx39]

I've always heard that Wizards are back loaded as far as power. As in the first 20 levels are very difficult and a Wizard will be under powered but eventually catch up and surpass other classes.

At what point does this happen?

I've heard Wizards have a better resist modifier but a lot of spells seem to resist fairly regularly. Unless there is a unseen factor it seems other classes will always outshine Wizard in terms of utility and sustained dps.

Are wizards destined to a life of taxi service and soloing or do they start to offer some real value later down the line?

[RDawg816]

Ports to hate, translocates, and burst dps. They can't chain cast without dying or going oom though. Mages have great sustained dps that doesn't rely on clarity. All classes have their purpose.

[Raev]

Are wizards destined to a life of taxi service and soloing or do they start to offer some real value later down the line?

At 60 wizards are a great raiding class; they are critical for mobilization and do a huge amount of damage without being as gear dependent as a monk or rogue. They are also pretty relaxing to play. What sucks is 1-55 (56+ you can do Chardok).

[Morningbreath]

I've always heard that Wizards are back loaded as far as power. As in the first 20 levels are very difficult and a Wizard will be under powered but eventually catch up and surpass other classes.

At what point does this happen?

Sometime in 2005 when SOE closed half of EQ's servers after the launch of World of Warcraft. It was the "OK we're listening now, 5 years later" patch.

Classic:
Flame Shock
1 : Decrease Hitpoints by 102 (L16) to 110 (L20)
Mana 75

Post-server merge:
Flame Shock
1: Decrease Hitpoints by 103 (L15) to 275 (L26)
Mana: 65

[Pyrion]

In a group a wizard can do some weak CC (stun/root), snare if its needed and nuke down dangerous mobs faster. Almost everything that wizard can do, a druid can do almost as good or better with a lot of added utility. And even druids have a hard time getting groups at later levels. But still, thats the reason you see about 10 times as many druids as wizards.

If you make a wizard it should be with raids in mind where they are actually usefull.

[RDawg816]

If your wizard wants a group, hit me up. I group with them all the time. Don't let the hive mentality force you into soloing. :)

[Daldaen]

At 60 wizards are a great raiding class; they are critical for mobilization and do a huge amount of damage without being as gear dependent as a monk or rogue. They are also pretty relaxing to play. What sucks is 1-55 (56+ you can do Chardok).

Dealing with the people that inhabit Chardok is worse than quadding through 55...

29-54 isn't too terrible once you can quad. You really want to get a Flux Staff quested early and some SoW potions or JBoots to make quadding easy. Quadding though is a lot of downtime medding inbetween. If you have work or chores or a book/movie inbetween pulls that's perfect but if you want to play actively the entire time you're online wizard isn't the best.

Wizard is really a raid class. It's not great if you don't raid. And as with any raid class you need to be level 60 to fully participate.

Bane Nukes, Lure of Ice, Concussion all make wizards fantastic in most fights. There are a few in ToV like Eashen who can't be baned or cold nuked so you're left with Lure of Flame at which point you may just AFK cause 640 DMG for 320 mana is sad.

However on the Lords and Ladies you can nuke for 2000 unresistable each cast. Some fights getting upwards of 20-25k damage assuming you concussion enough and have a deep enough mana pool.

[Troxx]

It depends what you mean by turn the corner.

From a dps standpoint, outside of raid burns they never turn a corner. Sustained dps in groups will always be poor (worse than a bard meleeing over time). If you can play to your other contributions (root cc in a group that could benefit, having evac, ports) you can make yourself useful.

Wizards are efficient solo'rs if you find non-eq productive stuff to do while soloing (long led breaks).
Wizards are amazing on raids for fast burns.
Wizards port.

Aside from that, your sustained dps will always be limited to your mana regen via meditate, clarity, and bard song if available. Mages have nukes that are nearly as efficient but pets that give steady sustained (relatively high) dps. The same is true for necros. Druids have the added benefit of buffs, dmg shields and heals that can be used along with nukes.

In classic, wizards just get the shaft for grouping.

Make some close friends and get in a tight-knit guild. Finding groups shouldn't be terrible if you do that.

[Vallanor]

What you've heard here is pretty much dead on. Wizard sustained dps is really poor in a traditional group unless you get a nice clicky dd robe (rend robe from VP or conflagration robe from Velk) and those really aren't available pre-60. We're great on raids, and I found quadding to be pretty enjoyable, but don't expect much love in the grouping scene.

[Stonewallx39]

It's too bad. Wizard looks like fun to play but I would want a little more firepower from a class that's so specialized.

[Stonewallx39]

What types of groups would burst dps have application?

At 39 a Wizard can nuke 400ish a pop. That's 25% of a lot of mid 30 mobs total hp. Is it just that mana regains to slowly in a faster paced group to be sustained?

[Daldaen]

Mana regeneration is the issue.

They can blow up mobs, but are then out of commission for several more mobs while they med.

Their primary strength, is on an over pull, that may wipe the group, they can help CC with Stun and root and snare, then blow all their mana killing off 1-2 mobs quickly to minimize the chaos of the pull.

After doing that they med and do nothing else for the next 5-10 min.

[Sage Truthbearer]

As others said.. Wizards specialize in in doing a lot of damage in a short period of time. Take their damage output over a long period of time and it starts to look pretty shitty.

This is pretty easy to test. Add up all the damage a Wizard would do over 1 hour in a group and compare it to a Rogue, Monk, or Mage and you will see how laughably bad it is. Trust me dude, I'm a Paladin. I know about poor DPS.

[Morningbreath]

What types of groups would burst dps have application?

At 39 a Wizard can nuke 400ish a pop. That's 25% of a lot of mid 30 mobs total hp. Is it just that mana regains to slowly in a faster paced group to be sustained?

Correct. It's actually made worse by having an enchanter in the group because they're hasting the melee which grants a much higher damage increase compared to Clarity on a wizard.

The shortest solution would have been to give wizards a scaling, magical version of backstab with a similar cooldown duration.

[mgellan]

What types of groups would burst dps have application?

At 39 a Wizard can nuke 400ish a pop. That's 25% of a lot of mid 30 mobs total hp. Is it just that mana regains to slowly in a faster paced group to be sustained?

Yeah in a group unless you really don't nuke all that much you end up medding to 300-400, stand, nuke, sit. Skip a mob or two. Rinse and repeat. And you can't cc with no mana so keep a buffer just in case :) Evac? Keep another mana buffer or OOM.

Wizzies are monster raid animals, and porters. Levelling wise you can get a bard PL to 50s once you get an AOE, quadding, and then Chardok. I don't think I've ever been invited into a group on my now 57 wizard where it wasn't guildies giving him a pity spot LOL :) But if you recognize thats what they are, they're a fun class, especially mobility wise.

Regards,
Mg

[Sage Truthbearer]

The shortest solution would have been to give wizards a scaling, magical version of backstab with a similar cooldown duration.

Every class has their strengths and weaknesses, the solution is not to make every class godmode but to pick a class that best fits how YOU like to have fun in EQ. Wizards are awesome in many areas of the game it's just that traditional xp groups are not where they shine.

[Morningbreath]

Every class has their strengths and weaknesses, the solution is not to make every class godmode but to pick a class that best fits how YOU like to have fun in EQ. Wizards are awesome in many areas of the game it's just that traditional xp groups are not where they shine.

There's nothing "godmode" about a wizard doing their share of damage in a group. Which by the way is exactly how *I* wanted to have fun playing my wizard in EQ.

[Cillaz]

Raids! And ports!
Not so good for xp groups, but can solo easily, port and once you raid they are massive dps and a must have!

[Stonewallx39]

I like the idea of being able to do some cc in groups and dps like crazy over a short period of time. What is it about raiding that really let's a Wizard shine?

[Lojik]

I like the idea of being able to do some cc in groups and dps like crazy over a short period of time. What is it about raiding that really let's a Wizard shine?

When you're in an xp group, you're trying to do as much damage over a sustained period...think of it as trying to run a marathon. A wizard is more of a sprinter, they can sprint really fast for like 100 yards, but if they're doing a marathon they have to crawl the rest of the way. Kunark and old world raid mobs are more like sprints with low hp levels, but some raid mobs in velious are again more like marathons and wizards kinda fall behind. Although bane nukes can offset this a bit.

Also on this server gear is really easy to come by, and even an untwinked melee will have weapons that a player on live with equivalent playtime would gawk at. My warrior on live was dual wielding langseax until level 20 (6/23 1hs) I don't think I've seen a single one on this server. This has also helped to relegate wizards to the least wanted class in xp groups.

[mgellan]

What is it about raiding that really let's a Wizard shine?

The faster you drop the target the less damage the raid takes and the less likely a wipe. Ergo, burst damage wins over sustained damage since wizzes can burn their mana bar chain casting nukes to burn a mob down.

Regards,
Mg

[Daldaen]

Now on raids, bane nukes are the main factor.

2000 unresistable damage for 450 mana. Using Harvest, C2, GoB, Manaskin/Epic, Glades and maybe Bard regen, with a decent 3500-4000 mana pool, and Specialization Evocation, you can usually get about 10-12 Bane Nukes in, with Concussions inbetween. That's about 20-24k DMG in 2-3 min fight.

If you cannot use Bane nukes (or you don't have them), on fights like Sontalak, Klandicar, Statue/AoW, Tunare... You're relegated to using Lure of Ice, which is a far less impressive 875 DMG for 320 mana. Then for fights like Eashen where he is immune to cold and you cannot bane him, and you have to use Lure of Fire, 640 DMG for 320 mana. You may as well swap characters.

Blowing up a mob in a short span is very valuable because it strains cleric mana less and reduces the chance that someone trains you while you're engaged on the mob or you are less likely to have another mob spawn while you're engaged with that one.

[Lojik]

It's also easier for wizards to avoid damage from special attacks/aoes since they can sit out and pop in to do their damage. It's easier to get resists up on them as well, and with epic/manasink aoe damage is mitigated a lot, also making it easy on healers.

[Nibblewitz]

Wizards also bring much needed blue and orange spell particles to dragon fights.

[Daldaen]

It's also easier for wizards to avoid damage from special attacks/aoes since they can sit out and pop in to do their damage. It's easier to get resists up on them as well, and with epic/manasink aoe damage is mitigated a lot, also making it easy on healers.

This is also true. On most ToV Dragons you can get 1 Bane + 1 Concussion in before you need to duck behind a wall. Doing this you can burst nice DPS and never take a hit.

But man, between Manaskin and Bane, I can easily go through 100 Peridots in a weekend. It's cheaper than a Reaper or Wort pot recharge though.

Magic resist gear is really cheap/easy to get on a wizard also. With rather minimal investment (maybe about 10-15k in gear) I can hit 255 Magic and 200~ Fire or Cold when raid buffed on my crappy alt wizard who has no Velious raid gear. Infact the only piece of Velious gear at all I think he uses is a Student's Homework.

Whereas some Melee or tankish type classes have to spend far more to get close to those resist levels.

[Lojik]

This is also true. On most ToV Dragons you can get 1 Bane + 1 Concussion in before you need to duck behind a wall. Doing this you can burst nice DPS and never take a hit.

But man, between Manaskin and Bane, I can easily go through 100 Peridots in a weekend. It's cheaper than a Reaper or Wort pot recharge though.

Magic resist gear is really cheap/easy to get on a wizard also. With rather minimal investment (maybe about 10-15k in gear) I can hit 255 Magic and 200~ Fire or Cold when raid buffed on my crappy alt wizard who has no Velious raid gear. Infact the only piece of Velious gear at all I think he uses is a Student's Homework.

Whereas some Melee or tankish type classes have to spend far more to get close to those resist levels.

If you wanna be cheap you can just use manasink, only takes a jasper but mitigates 250spell damage.

[Daldaen]

If you wanna be cheap you can just use manasink, only takes a jasper but mitigates 250spell damage.

It stacks with Manaskin, you should use both for 850 rune total.

But yea having an epic click to replace Manaskin would save me probably half or a full stack of DoTs every week I think.

[Raev]

The sad truth is that Wizards aren't even good burst damage in XP groups 50+. A Warrior tank has no chance to keep a mob off a chain nuking wizard, so for starters you are relegated groups with Paladin or Shadowknight tanks. Even with a suitably on-the-ball hybrid tank, a wizard with 2000 mana available can only cast Ice Comet 5x. Thats 5500 damage assuming no resists . . . which is maybe 2/3 of the HP of a Krup Knight. If your puller fucks up and brings all 5 chef mobs, it will be the Enchanter/Bard locking them all down with mez who saves your ass, not the Wizard.

If you are just dying to beat your head against the wall and play an XP Wizard, you should abandon the idea of burst damage and instead play to their real strengths: porting and stuns. Porting is nearly self explanatory: when you get a cleric rep from two continents over your group will breathe a sigh of relief. Stuns are also tremendously valuable. Stun Wizard mobs when they are about to nuke your tank for 1100+. Stun cleric/shaman mobs before they chain heal themselves for 50% of their bar. Consistently stun charmed pets and Enchanters will love you.

This advice basically follows Loraen's 12th Rule of EverQuest: a class becomes better the closer they play to an Enchanter (who can do all of the above much better than a Wizard). So can a cleric. Which is why Wizards are not good in XP groups.

[Lojik]

The sad truth is that Wizards aren't even good burst damage in XP groups 50+. A Warrior tank has no chance to keep a mob off a chain nuking wizard, so for starters you are relegated groups with Paladin or Shadowknight tanks. Even with a suitably on-the-ball hybrid tank, a wizard with 2000 mana available can only cast Ice Comet 5x. Thats 5500 damage assuming no resists . . . which is maybe 2/3 of the HP of a Krup Knight. If your puller fucks up and brings all 5 chef mobs, it will be the Enchanter/Bard locking them all down with mez who saves your ass, not the Wizard.

If you are just dying to beat your head against the wall and play an XP Wizard, you should abandon the idea of burst damage and instead play to their real strengths: porting and stuns. Porting is nearly self explanatory: when you get a cleric rep from two continents over your group will breathe a sigh of relief. Stuns are also tremendously valuable. Stun Wizard mobs when they are about to nuke your tank for 1100+. Stun cleric/shaman mobs before they chain heal themselves for 50% of their bar. Consistently stun charmed pets and Enchanters will love you.

This advice basically follows Loraen's 12th Rule of EverQuest: a class becomes better the closer they play to an Enchanter (who can do all of the above much better than a Wizard). So can a cleric. Which is why Wizards are not good in XP groups.

Wizards are great in xp groups of 4.

When there are 4 mobs, that is. Some good quadding camps for 50+ now with velious out, wizards can probably get 30-60 with less actual time played than any other class, with 10 mins afk and 1 min killing 4 mobs. Good class if you play at work or doing other stuff.

Yah wizards can stun and root CC, but its kinda a catch 22: If theres no enchanter they are useful for it, but they'll be less effective with 0 mana regen. If there is an enchanter, you probably wont' need them for root cc/stuns.

[AtomicFrog]

The time from 1-29 is the slowest on a wizard. Once you hit 29 the world opens up, you get your first quad kite tools and now you are an exp machine. As someone mentioned before, do the flux staff quest at 29 (100% MQable) then head to OT and kill whatever is blue to you. The next power spike is at 34 where you get circle of force aoe nuke, now your quad time has improved dramatically. The only other real lull is from 48-51 because you never really get another good quad nuke until 51 with pillar of frost. 51-56 will fly by (besides 54 boo double hell) and after that just port people until you are level 60 from buying Chardok aoe pulls. If you are lucky you can get into the group for free since wizards are needed for the group to function anyway.

I started my wizard in September of 2015, took a break from the game from thxgiving until just a week ago, and I'm currently pushing thru level 49. It is one of the fastest leveling classes I have played in the game. I am not an uber twinked character all on my items I have bought from porting money... hell I still wear cloth legs and wrist.

That said, they are really best played as a solo class. I grouped in arena at com for some of the early 40 levels and the exp even with only 4 of us clearing the goo house and arena was not as good as quad kiting. If you want to play a group caster, roll a mage or an ench or even necro.

[Xaanka]

wizards have a strong and underrated role in red server 6 man groups: defense. they are absolutely nuts in pvp against sub-60's who don't have raid gear, and they can evacuate your group out of the zone when shit hits the fan. there are a lot of zones i wouldn't feel safe leveling in without a druid or wiz, and unless the group is low on heals or the zone has an animal charm i'd take the wiz for my group.

[Stonewallx39]

What exactly makes wizards so adept at pvp? I hadn't heard that before.

[Fame]

Level 49 they round the corner in pvp

http://i.imgur.com/EnkCC5W.jpg

[Troxx]

What exactly makes wizards so adept at pvp? I hadn't heard that before.

Mobility, utility, and burn capability.

Outside of combatting raid geared toons, a naked wizard dropping lures can wreck another player quite quickly ... Especially if the wizard gets the drop on the other person and starts from a place that gives a big advantage geometrically.

Porting and gating classes have a big advantage in escaping.

[Decad]

Only just saw this thread.

Wizards life begin at 60 in Kunark and Velious.

In Luclin ( if it ever happens here ) wizards become a very dependable and wanted class even in groups due to spell crits, with AA wizards become OP

The most important wizard spell is Concussion.

[Pyrion]

Luclin won't happen here. Wizards will remain a solo/raid class. If you do not want raids, there is really no reason to be a wizard instead of a druid.

[Baler]

Level 49 they round the corner in pvp

holy crap you're not kidding..
http://wiki.project1999.com/Ice_Comet
Decrease Hitpoints by 1110 (L49)

That would 1 shot a lot of players, if not most, around that 49 level range.
Kinda makes me want to roll a wizard :eek:

[Raev]

Most PVP wizards are played by no-talent losers who go up to city of mist and cast ice comet on ungeared noobs while they are engaged with mobs, then brag about their K/D ratio. The above poster is a classic example.

Also, players take 2/3 or so damage from spells in PVP, and with 150+ resists very few casts will land for full.

[Fame]

Rave is bitter about blue, pay him no mind, but yeah, 49 wizards are good times for casual pvp and you don't have to do it in com, I got most of my kills out in the wild

[Kalex716]

One thing no one has brought up yet... I found while leveling what you lack in group desirability, you can make up for in sheer mobility by getting on multiple group lists at once and being able to port and hop around to fill a spot quickly when it arises.

...All the while doing some solo'ing or trading while you wait.

[Gain]

Sorry but on p99 wizzies never truly turn the corner since they won't get manaburn.