Wiping the leaderboards

[Amuck]

I think clearing the leaderboards would be healthy for the PVP on our server. without it all the leaderboard heroes might fight to thedeath rather then plugging. just a thought. I know only Jeremy / Bush could do this. why not though, look at the gm event we had at the arena, boards were off = mass pvp. Lets try it for a month and see how it goes? No, im not bringing this up because I have a terrible KDR I actually have a killer KDR but want the pvp to thrive and think by doing this it will help. < incoming rustled nerd posts>

[krazyGlue]

Nope

[silo32]

we did this before in season 1 way before bush did this

willian turned it off for 2-3 months

best pvp I had on red99, people were pvping more, its more or less a top few that bitch and moat about there YT count when it wasn't recorded you could feel a sense of ease across the server since your ooc and yt's weren't being recorded

even tho I won s1 in the top 10

I think its even worse than it was before I dunno overall there should be an ingame counter like there is on other eq emu servers alt p opens it up

tl'dr

remove them promotes more pvp

[easy_lee]

YT is good because it lets people know PvP is going on, which is important on a small server. Tracking KD encourages people to run from PvP when they can't guarantee a win, and discourages people from playing classes who can't reliably get kills. That's why we have so many Shadow Knights, Rogues, and wizards running around. It's the same problem MOBAs like DOTA face: everyone wants to play carries and gankers, instead of support.

So yeah, I'd get rid of it entirely given the chance.

[AzzarTheGod]

MOBAs like DOTA face: everyone wants to play carries and gankers, instead of support.


Playing support means relying on unproven solo queue teammates to make plays. The reason nobody wants to play support is lack of trust.

Competitive nature says if I fail I want to be responsible for it. The ? mark going into a game is something most would rather do without. Hence lock all gankers/carries.

[TheBiznessTZ]

I'm down for taking the leader boards out.

[Nyrod]

leaderboards?

ya, dont give a fuck

[heartbrand]

leaderboards?

ya, dont give a fuck

[dis_mornin]

Haven't check LB since this new format. I think the last leaderboard using the points system encouraged pvp more than anything. New board blows.

[quido]

People always going to try to hero it, whatever the means of proof is. No leaderboard? Get ready for a bunch of screenshots from Salem.

[easy_lee]

People always going to try to hero it, whatever the means of proof is. No leaderboard? Get ready for a bunch of screenshots from Salem.

Yeah but screen shots are funny.

[Samsung]

Yeah but screen shots are funny.

[AzzarTheGod]

Yeah but screen shots are funny.

[quido]

Very rarely are screenshots funny - there is an occasional gem.

[RenlyB]

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/vda bs=1024
will nuke that wordpress vulnerability you're running too!

[AzzarTheGod]

Thats true we still get good screenshots. Colgate TOV pvp adventures was classic. The leaderboard helps filter screenshot worthy events. Screenshot spam would not be funny.


Vapo and salem screenshots posted daily of some trashcan dying in mass pvp with someone getting HT'd would shit up the forum.

[Tameth]

#nomoreplugs

[miraclegrow2]

yellow text is stupid, not classic and was only wanted by the VZ/TZ zergling retards

leaderboards are also exceptionally dumb.

[Squire]

Yeah but screen shots are funny.

[quido]

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/vda bs=1024
will nuke that wordpress vulnerability you're running too!

script kiddie alert

[ducktv]

Yeah but screen shots are funny.

Salem kill shot threads are some of my favorite things ever.

[gloinz]

script kiddie alert

wipe leaderboard

release API that uses your characters in different zones and reports a /who

next app: let people know when people are raiding dain etc.

final solution : pvp instead of worthless leaderboards on a server where deaths are meaningless

[Kergan]

The leaderboards on r99 have always been flawed pieces of crap, but that is in no way the fault of the creators of those boards. I actually have a lot of respect for both Jeremy and Elderan for running them, knowing that they'll get 98% complaints, repeated accusations, etc.

[Smedy]

the leaderboard is amazing, a testament to my accomplishments in elfsim99! with 5000 ping and rags i overcame the highest of obstacles taking that into account i am one of the best button clickers this server has ever seen

[bubur]

its gay

[Telron]

Removing leaderboards would do nothing

[vinetonut]

Removing leaderboards would do nothing

[Baugi]

Removing the leader board seems backwards since anyone with chat logs could create something similar.

That being said, global PVP messages really ought to be removed -

They aren't consistent with the goal of a classic experience.

They incentivize easy kill farming. Easy kills are most consistently extracted from EXP groups, and griefing EXP groups kills the population.

Lastly, they facilitate pointless immersion-breaking dick waving. People should be fighting over targets, not YT.

[heartbrand]

I dunno, I find it humorous that people will sit in PoM waiting to nuke people who die on raids as if dying naked provides any loss whatsoever.

[dis_mornin]

Removing the leader board seems backwards since anyone with chat logs could create something similar.

That being said, global PVP messages really ought to be removed -

They aren't consistent with the goal of a classic experience.

They incentivize easy kill farming. Easy kills are most consistently extracted from EXP groups, and griefing EXP groups kills the population.

Lastly, they facilitate pointless immersion-breaking dick waving. People should be fighting over targets, not YT.

You're dumb.

[Baugi]

You're dumb.

I acknowledge your sentiment, but I think there's fruitful discussion to be had if you could elaborate a bit?

[dis_mornin]

I acknowledge your sentiment, but I think there's fruitful discussion to be had if you could elaborate a bit?

No real need to. YT argument was had like 2 years ago when we fought to get it put in. Sure some pvp threads shown through screenshots were funny and missed but the server was stale without YT. Community fought hard for it and devs finally gave in. It has been a huge success. It promotes PvP. And from the standpoint of the leaderboards.. If you don't like them, no one is forcing you to goto the website. If anything, again... It promotes PvP.

[Tameth]

#nomoreplugs

[Baugi]

It promotes PvP.

My argument is that it promotes the wrong kind of PVP; though I imagine it does increase the overall number of PKs.

Based on Sirken's comments, outsiders think the Red community has been getting significantly worse over the last year+.

If you care to point me to a thread with the original arguments for YT I'll take a look.

And from the standpoint of the leaderboards.. If you don't like them, no one is forcing you to goto the website.

It doesn't really matter if I personally visit the website; I play with the community influenced by it either way.

[dis_mornin]

My argument is that it promotes the wrong kind of PVP; though I imagine it does increase the overall number of PKs.

Based on Sirken's comments, outsiders think the Red community has been getting significantly worse over the last year+.

If you care to point me to a thread with the original arguments for YT I'll take a lot.



It doesn't really matter if I personally visit the website; I play with the community influenced by it either way.

Well I can assure you that there isn't really any kind of wrong pvp promoted by YT that wouldn't exist without it. And I can also assure you Sirken doesn't know dick about what's going on on Red99. The community has improved significantly over the past years and the people that play here can easily support that. Or if sirken wants we can go back to the days of 30 people max on the box. Nizzar doing everything in his power to suppress any form of competition on the box. Tune playing 48 hours a day slaying lvl 52 relentlessly. People bind camping for no other reason than to grief or in the old days, delevel the person.

Sirkens "outsiders", aka the blue community, think red99 is a shit hole because the GMs like Sirken do not speak favorable of it or promote it in the way that they should. Those people also have never tried it. Speak to anyone on Red 99 right now that originally played blue and I can assume you they are very very pleased with their decision to switch over.

All in all. The box has never been in a better spot than it is right now. Population has never been on average as high.

[easy_lee]

My argument is that it promotes the wrong kind of PVP; though I imagine it does increase the overall number of PKs.

Based on Sirken's comments, outsiders think the Red community has been getting significantly worse over the last year+.

If you care to point me to a thread with the original arguments for YT I'll take a lot.


No need, I can explain.

We want people to PvP, as that's what the server is all about. We also want people to know PvP is happening, so the server doesn't seem boring. Since we have a small pop, people pushed for YT and global OOC to fix both problems.

Why did YT make people PvP? Because everyone likes to get kills and brag about it. It's really that simple. And if you think about it, there weren't many other options.

Consider that EQ has no kill tracking system, no PvP only pixels, and no reward for PvP at all. People used to contest camps, but that got less common as the server got older and smaller. Most of the players are leveled now, and the ones who aren't are spread out over the whole level range. The server is big enough that people don't have to fight over much till endgame.

People still take plat from each other, but it doesn't matter much anymore. The server is old enough that people have acquired millions of plat, which are hoarded in banks. The amounts of plat people actually carry are trivial.

And of course, we can't steal gear anymore.

In short, there's rarely any incentive to PvP at all, until endgame. And even at endgame, the zerg is currently impossible to contest because melee > casters and because we don't have enough raiders for multiple raids to be sustained, given the nature of velious content.

YT creates incentive. It's not great incentive, as it basically amounts to flexing epeen. But it works. And the only ways to create more incentive for PvP, without adding a bunch of non-classic rules, would be to either reset the server, so everyone was low level and low on plat again, or reinstate item loot.

[Nirgon]

pro: sort of prevents LNS issues sometimes by allowing entire online pop to call out LNS violations publicly (or GMs to back read ooc LNS call logs), current pvp system because of no item loot (yuck)
cons: used to berate the shit out of people, develops mental illness

[dis_mornin]

pro: sort of prevents LNS issues sometimes by allowing entire online pop to call out LNS violations publicly (or GMs to back read ooc LNS call logs), current pvp system because of no item loot (yuck)
cons: used to berate the shit out of people, develops mental illness
Also helps prevent bind camping which used to be a huge problem in this box

[heartbrand]

YT such a good incentive that people plug when their hp drops to 99%

[dis_mornin]

YT such a good incentive that people plug when their hp drops to 99%

Not everyone is as scared of PvP as you

[heartbrand]

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/384/kRvmcI.jpg

[easy_lee]

YT such a good incentive that people plug when their hp drops to 99%

People have always done that. A plugging fix would be great, but that's the only way to stop people from plugging.

[dis_mornin]

People have always done that. A plugging fix would be great, but that's the only way to stop people from plugging.

Yea I mean. I hope they take plugging out just so people can quickly figure out how bad of an idea that is.

[Baugi]

Well I can assure you that there isn't really any kind of wrong pvp promoted by YT that wouldn't exist without it.

Farming leader board points in general seems "wrong" to me so I imagine we're not going to find common ground on that point.

And I can also assure you Sirken doesn't know dick about what's going on on Red99.

He was reasonably involved on Red when I started. Obviously, not so much now.

Sirkens "outsiders", aka the blue community, think red99 is a shit hole because the GMs like Sirken do not speak favorable of it or promote it in the way that they should. Those people also have never tried it. Speak to anyone on Red 99 right now that originally played blue and I can assume you they are very very pleased with their decision to switch over.

There are lots of people on blue who went till endgame on Red and still decided that the poop-socking on blue is better than the community on Red (the last two he interviewed on his stream for example).

All in all. The box has never been in a better spot than it is right now. Population has never been on average as high.

Average population seems to be roughly what it was when I started a year ago (despite the introduction on Velious). Blue in contrast is up something like 30-50%, though I'm admittedly guesstimating.

[Kergan]

Just make people respawn with their shit when they die in PVP and the majority of the plugs will stop.

[easy_lee]

Just make people respawn with their shit when they die in PVP and the majority of the plugs will stop.

That would create endless fights of people just repeatedly running in with their full gear. It would also be horrible for the leveling experience, as there'd be no way to fight off twinks, who would just run right back in after getting killed.

[Baugi]

We want people to PvP, as that's what the server is all about.

Classic PVP servers weren't "all about" PVP; it was just an added rule set.

I mean, let's be honest, EQ PVP is rubbish and it only got more rubbish with every expansion. On the other hand, it's much better than training and multi-page camp lists.

[heartbrand]

All in all. The box has never been in a better spot than it is right now. Population has never been on average as high.

pop is pretty bad at the moment and approaching kunark levels

[dis_mornin]

So sirken is interviewing bluebies that went to red and didn't like it on his stream. Sounds like a real advocate for red99 server health.

[Baugi]

So sirken is interviewing bluebies that went to red and didn't like it on his stream. Sounds like a real advocate for red99 server health.

I'm not sure why you think it's his job to fix a Red population problem. It's his job (voluntary goal?) to promote the project as a whole. If people would be happier on Blue, it makes sense to tell them as much.

[dis_mornin]

I'm not sure why you think it's his job to fix a Red population problem. It's his job (voluntary goal?) to promote the project as a whole. If people would be happier on Blue, it makes sense to tell them as much.

Ugh. Takes to much energy trying to explain the flaws in your argument. Just go back to blue instead of trying to change red. Sounds like you would be happier there.

[Nirgon]

YT such a good incentive that people plug when their hp drops to 99%

man this is a good post

[Baugi]

Ugh. Takes to much energy trying to explain the flaws in your argument. Just go back to blue instead of trying to change red. Sounds like you would be happier there.

The no true Scotsman stuff is dumb. I obviously prefer Red or I wouldn't be playing on Red.

Given that there are plenty of people to PVP now, and plenty of pixels to fight over; your counter-arguments don't seem to hold much water.

[SamwiseRed]

leaderboards are run by a player. if you dont like it run your own?

[dis_mornin]

The no true Scotsman stuff is dumb. I obviously prefer Red or I wouldn't be playing on Red.

Given that there are plenty of people to PVP now, and plenty of pixels to fight over; your counter-arguments don't seem to hold much water.

We must be arguing about 2 different things since my counter arguments are all in support of that yes there are plenty of people to pvp now and plenty of pixels to fight over. And also that if you want to move the server backwards by removing YT and LBs.. You're dumb.

[Redi]

Haven't checked LB since Elderan first hosted it. A 3rd party created source of data analytics which requires a character to be online to collect? Lol, might as well create your own spreadsheet w random numbers, it's just as reliable.

[Redi]

YT such a good incentive that people plug when their hp drops to 99%

This.

The culture of red was much more willing to fight and die pre-yt and lb. We all thought it would encourage but it's done the opposite.

Quite the social experiment.

[Baugi]

We must be arguing about 2 different things since my counter arguments are all in support of that yes there are plenty of people to pvp now and plenty of pixels to fight over. And also that if you want to move the server backwards by removing YT and LBs.. You're dumb.

Let me clarify,

Even if we adopt your assumption that YT was useful for stimulating the population, it doesn't necessarily follow that it remains useful now.

You argued that it made the world feel less empty; now that the world is actually less empty this isn't necessary.

You argued that incentivized PVP was important to keep people playing; there's still uncompleted content on Red and farming Velious BiS takes a long long time for the average player.

You argued that there was no reason to PVP other than YT; there are many pixels to fight over now.

Even given your assumption (for which the evidence is anecdotal at best), the population on Red is big enough now that it would be better to address the community issues.

[quido]

Would you guys enjoy the leaderboard more if we included a periodical like the Red99 Faggot Gazette to take shots at people, with clever images?

[dis_mornin]

Let me clarify,

Even if we adopt your assumption that YT was useful for stimulating the population, it doesn't necessarily follow that it remains useful now.

You argued that it made the world feel less empty; now that the world is actually less empty this isn't necessary.

You argued that incentivized PVP was important to keep people playing; there's still uncompleted content on Red and farming Velious BiS takes a long long time for the average player.

You argued that there was no reason to PVP other than YT; there are many pixels to fight over now.

Even given your assumption (for which the evidence is anecdotal at best), the population on Red is big enough now that it would be better to address the community issues.

Most of those points were brought up by others. But thanks for the summary.

Point is there are many reasons peoples are going to log on. There is a decent percentage of the population I would think logs in for pvp. If I'm not logging in for a raid, I'm logging in for pvp and there is a decent chunk of people I know operate the same. YT incentives that PvP. Hell I was even talking with a pal the other day how the points system on the LB incentived it even more. It gave a reason to log in.

For those who think YT just increases plugging.. Are you going to tell me your all the sudden not going to plug from pvp because you won't have a YT go off when you die? Gtfo cause that's a lie. There was plugging pre YT and shit pre YT you would be shamed even harder because people would make entire threads about you dying.

[Redi]

How else do you explain the phenomenal change in pvp culture between classic and velious?

[Uuruk]

Pizza and diabetes

[El Camacho]

For those who think YT just increases plugging.. Are you going to tell me your all the sudden not going to plug from pvp because you won't have a YT go off when you die? Gtfo cause that's a lie. There was plugging pre YT and shit pre YT you would be shamed even harder because people would make entire threads about you dying.

Easiest way to find out would be to turn off the leaderboard or yellow text for a month.

I'm sure some plug to avoid long corpse recoveries just as much as to avoid the yellow text.

[dis_mornin]

How else do you explain the phenomenal change in pvp culture between classic and velious?

EQ is a PVE game. Velious is a raiding expansion.