Velium swiftblade - bards

[Troxx]

So I just picked one of these up, going to bail on my Guardian's mace. Reasoning for this was that my melee damage is pretty crap to begin with, so i'm not often using my weapons if I'm truly trying to optimize my contribution. Mostly it was to free up my belt for something better than a Sash of the Dragonborn and to sell that off for some more cash to fund some sorely needed upgrades for my shaman.

Being that most of my melee damage came from my primary hand and it's damage bonus to begin with, do you guys feel that 13% more haste modifying my 10/18 primary (and more frequent damage bonus application to boot) will allow this to generate comparable dps (or ... maybe more dps??) in downgrading my offhand ratio from 14/24 to 5/24. Bear in mind that bard dual wield caps at 210 and we don't get double attack. I'm not sure how often dual wield actually triggers, but it can't be more than 60-65% of the time.

For the reasons listed in paragraph 1, I won't regret this shift for one minute, my question is simply:

1. Pathetic bard melee dps with 10/18 primary and 14/24 and 23% haste
2. Pathetic bard melee dps with 10/18 primary and 5/24 with 36% haste

Will ...

a) 1 > 2
b) 1 = 2
c) 2 > 1

Bearing in mind that the real answer regardless is

d) bard melee dps is ass, and if i really cared about my own dps alone I could stack dots for ~60dps in spell damage in a situation where I could twist in aoe dots on top of single target chants

But ... A B or C?

Thoughts from other fellow gimpy-melee bards?

[DarthMartigan]

Pretty sure losing haste on your main isn't a good idea. Haste from that weapon only affects that weapon from my understanding.

[DarthMartigan]

Also, I think ratio only thing that matters for offhand.

[DarthMartigan]

Also, since i can't edit these, I think you can just assume you won't contribute melee dps pre epic on a bard and just do instruments and not feel bad about melee.

[blondeattk]

`On to this weapon: It stinks for melee. Great for bow kiting, etc., but there are much better weapons that paired with a 22% haste item like SCHW will give you MUCH more melee damage.`

read backward from here:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4567#m101172474220302

seems it does affect both hands.

[Troxx]

Pretty sure losing haste on your main isn't a good idea. Haste from that weapon only affects that weapon from my understanding.

Worn haste acts as worn haste regardless if it comes from your boots, your belt, your cloak, or your weapon. The 36% haste is applied to all weapons.

10/14.6 + 14/19.5 worn 23% haste
10/13.2 + 5/17.6 worn 36% haste -- 10% mainhand advantage, worse offhand

If you factor in 60% spell haste from an enchanter.

10/9.83 + 14/13.11 (83% total haste)
10/9.18 + 5/12.24 (96% total haste) - 7% mainhand advantage, worse offhand

For most melee classes who possess double attack and higher dual wield skill caps, this would be a no brainer "bad" upgrade. A monk, ranger, warrior, or rogue would have to be smoking crack to even consider this. My question is posed to the knowledgeable chaps out there good with math. Bard melee dps is bad to begin with. Without double attack and higher dual wield skill caps, the lion's share of my damage already came from my primary hand's swings and damage bonus. In this case, it amplifies what was already the majority of my dps while decreasing the effectiveness of my offhand's direct contribution.

old > new?
old = new?
old < new?

(the real answer still being that it doesn't really matter as bard melee dps is pathetic)

[brecon]

It depends on your level. Lower levels where your dual wield skill is super low, you probably generate more dps from a faster mainhand than from a better ratio offhand.

If you are soloing post-40 or so, pre-epic you really won't be using your weapons: you will be using your drum for chant or fear kiting, a horn for aoe kiting, and a drum or a lute for charming.

The exception is if you are mez-soloing a named in a tight space and regenning in between, in which case you will probably be using melee weapons instead of dots so that you can lock down the mob again. This is a slow way to kill anything.

In a full xp-group when you are doing dps...the difference between haste percentage and the ratio is so minimal to the total group output that I wouldn't really sweat it.

My suggestion: get gear that prioritizes what bards need to do: (1) get procs on weapons like orb of tishan and epic, (2) mez, (3) survive playing a CC with minimal help from healers, (4) lull and pull, and (5) for raids resist fears and roots for kiting. So what you really want to prioritize in gear is:

Dex until ~110 (for procs and for fewer missed notes) > Resists > HP > Cha > AC

Nowhere on my list of Bard priorities is Haste or High-Ratio weapons.

[Troxx]

Any reason for a goal of ~110 dex? Genuinely curious as that number seems pretty specific, but lower than I would have guessed to maximize missed notes or procs.

[brecon]

In my own experiments it feels like there are thresholds of dex over which you get far less missed notes, with one at ~90 and one at ~110. This might just be superstition as I've never parsded it.

[Troxx]

Good to know, thanks. I've never parsed it either but sitting at 120 unbuffed is why i ask. I know more is always better but any info on diminishing returns is nice (if there at all). I've never parsed either, but i've never had > 130 unbuffed dex and i HATE missed notes.

[-Catherin-]

Personally I wouldn't be concerned about your melee dps at all. its going to be bad no matter what you do. equip your hands with other ultimate goals in mind. A bard is only as good as their worst instrument!

[Daldaen]

Personally I wouldn't be concerned about your melee dps at all. its going to be bad no matter what you do. equip your hands with other ultimate goals in mind. A bard is only as good as their worst instrument!

**Other than Wind. Wind is useless.

[Xaanka]

Personally I wouldn't be concerned about your melee dps at all. its going to be bad no matter what you do. equip your hands with other ultimate goals in mind. A bard is only as good as their worst instrument!

agree.

imo, keep the guardian mace because you already have it. the proc is good. if you're going to sell it, do it to buy a better instrument. or maybe a tish orb if you're on red.

drum->resists->lute->sta/hp->dex is pretty much your list of priorities. throw "clicky trash buffs" after resists on that if you're playing on red.

str, weapon ratio, etc don't really matter much. procs/effects on weapons can be important/useful like tish orbs, that sword with the clicky regen song, guardian mace, epic, slow trident etc. the only time you should really put much thought into your weapons is "is this proc/effect any good"

think of it this way: at best your dps is going to be about on par with a necro pet, from low levels to the endgame with all the best gear.

[Troxx]

I'm pretty sure our melee dps is quite a bit lower than a necro pet :p

[zanderklocke]

agree.

imo, keep the guardian mace because you already have it. the proc is good. if you're going to sell it, do it to buy a better instrument. or maybe a tish orb if you're on red.

drum->resists->lute->sta/hp->dex is pretty much your list of priorities. throw "clicky trash buffs" after resists on that if you're playing on red.

str, weapon ratio, etc don't really matter much. procs/effects on weapons can be important/useful like tish orbs, that sword with the clicky regen song, guardian mace, epic, slow trident etc. the only time you should really put much thought into your weapons is "is this proc/effect any good"

think of it this way: at best your dps is going to be about on par with a necro pet, from low levels to the endgame with all the best gear.

Cha is also a priority if you are a grouping bard for mezzing/charming.

What is the slow trident?

[Cecily]

I'm pretty sure our melee dps is quite a bit lower than a necro pet :p

Yes, because the pets can double attack lol. Bards get 1 attack per round per weapon, so if you try really hard you might get to half the DPS of a ranger.

[koros]

Mace - (((10*2+11)/18)+(14*2/24)*.54)*1.23 = 2.89

Swifblade - (((10*2+11)/18)+(5*2/24)*.54)*1.36 = 2.64

Relative damage to each other. Simple answer to your question is that the mace will do more always.

[Troxx]

Mace - (((10*2+11)/18)+(14*2/24)*.54)*1.23 = 2.89

Swifblade - (((10*2+11)/18)+(5*2/24)*.54)*1.36 = 2.64

Relative damage to each other. Simple answer to your question is that the mace will do more always.

Excellent! Thanks for the reply :) . The equation may be a bit simplistic in undervaluing damage bonus in assuming you'll always hit for the upper end of the equation, but that's the most straight answer I've received. Good to know.

So based off your numbers bard dual wield rate is 54%?

[beel]

kind of off topic but still on topic:

What is the appearance of the Velium Swiftblade? Like an edge of the nightwalker or different?

[Troxx]

Smallish katana, looks fairly nice.

[koros]

Excellent! Thanks for the reply :) . The equation may be a bit simplistic in undervaluing damage bonus in assuming you'll always hit for the upper end of the equation, but that's the most straight answer I've received. Good to know.

So based off your numbers bard dual wield rate is 54%?

(Skill + level) / 500 is the equation for duel wield, so yup that works out to 54%

And yes the equation isn't perfect. As your attack increases the distribution shifts upwards, but in almost all cases you can view it as accurate. Only with extremely high atk does damage bonus start to matter relatively less.