How to Trust a moderate Muslim?

[ronasch]

How can they be trusted with verses like this taken from their holy book?

"Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah – unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions. If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harbouring inner animosity for them... Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers – except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them." Sura 3:28

"But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers." Sura 3:54

My religion says thou shall not lie. What's yours say?

[maskedmelon]

Is that 3:28 excerpt two alternative interpretations of the verse? It looks to be saying essentially the same thing twice, each of which is roughly congruent with other translations of the passage, but slightly more elaborative than the one in mine.

3:54 is subtly different from the passage I see too. Says "planner" in place of "deceiver." I am by no means an authority though (and don't even speak Arabic), so yours may be a more accurate translation.

On topic, 3:28, regardless of translation illustrates one of the innumerable problems with the foundation of Islam.

[ronasch]

Is that 3:28 excerpt two alternative interpretations of the verse? It looks to be saying essentially the same thing twice, each of which is roughly congruent with other translations of the passage, but slightly more elaborative than the one in mine.

3:54 is subtly different from the passage I see too. Says "planner" in place of "deceiver." I am by no means an authority though (and don't even speak Arabic), so yours may be a more accurate translation.

On topic, 3:28, regardless of translation illustrates one of the innumerable problems with the foundation of Islam.

Thus the conundrum, the Quran has multiple translations. Is this purposeful to "deceive" the infidels? Or is it truly just misinterpreted text?

Either way Islam does permit deception toward infidels that is distinctly consistent in all translations.

[Pokesan]

Thus the conundrum, the Quran has multiple translations. Is this purposeful to "deceive" the infidels? Or is it truly just misinterpreted text?

Either way Islam does permit deception toward infidels that is distinctly consistent in all translations.

text over a thousand years old and your theory is 'sneaky muslims being sneaky'

this is why you get moderated.

[maskedmelon]

It's true though if you read the text. Another interesting thing about the Qu'ran is it offers a lot of discretion in its laws. For example when someone dies the Qu'ran instructs you to carry out their last wishes... UNLESS you are sure that is not what they REALLY meant. It includes a system of harsh laws and punishments, but often with loopholes for those with silver tongues, for Allah is merciful.

[ronasch]

text over a thousand years old and your theory is 'sneaky muslims being sneaky'

this is why you get moderated.

Lying to infidels is consistent in all translations Pokesan. I urge you to find me a translation of Sura 3:28 that is not consistent with that.

[Pokesan]

a conspiracy 1000 years in the making

[ronasch]

a conspiracy 1000 years in the making

If the shoe fits.

What benefit is it to American society to allow more and more Muslims into the USA? Or do you just wanna feel better about yourself?

It's obvious to me that the Progressives both left and right have allied with Islam particularly the Muslim Brotherhood and front groups like CAIR with the intention of destroying Christianity which Muslims and Progressives LOATHE.

Can't wait til the Zombie Apocalypse, all my target practice will payoff

[Pokesan]

you're an idiot

[ronasch]

I'm prepared

[iruinedyourday]

Or like this one, "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)"

oh wait.. wrong book.

[ronasch]

you're an idiot

Pokesan you should just pledge your allegiance to ISIS now and get it over with. Your not the type that will fight against the Headcutters

[Pokesan]

Pokesan you should just pledge your allegiance to ISIS now and get it over with. Your not the type that will fight against the Headcutters

http://www.worelikealion.com/wp-content/plugins/wti-like-post/images/likeIcon.jpeg

[Lune]

Or like this one, "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)"

oh wait.. wrong book.

Most modern Christians choose to ignore most of the old testament, because the old testament is about as sadistic as the Quran, and it's no longer compatible with most Western cultures.

(Normally when culture evolves away from religious scripture, that society adapts the scripture to serve its needs. You see this with pretty much every religion on Earth... the Eastern Orthodox church being an application of Christianity to Eastern slavic / Greek cultures, Catholicism for romance countries, and Protestantism to Nordic countries, with each denomination tending to reflect the values of that region in the way they commune with their God).

With Islam it seems to work in the reverse for some reason. Culture seems to adapt to serve Islamic values. It's quite interesting really. The only major dogmatic shifts I can think of in Islam are Sunni / Shiite, and Wahhabism (there are other small denominations tantamount to Mormons/Mennonites etc), and they are all massive spanning tons of regions and peoples, with your typical Indonesian Muslim pretty much following the same character of Islam as someone in Morocco.

I think the easiest conclusion is that your typical follower of Islam is a bit more 'religious' than your typical Christian. So when you are quoting a verse from the Quran and comparing it with a verse from the Old or New testaments, you're probably more likely to find a group that actually believes the verse.

[maskedmelon]

Or like this one, "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)"

oh wait.. wrong book.

This is a double-whammy for Islam, which decries Christians and Jews for not following the word of their shared god. You know Islam is just a second expansion of Judaism right?

Now for Christians it is a bit different. They follow the teachings of their namesake, Christ. Come back with similar language from him (reference books Mathew through John and even the subsequent letters if you are so inclined.

For Christians, Christ's death represented the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy and essentially the absolvement of sin, overturning Levitican law and the need for nasty punishments like stoning for things like adultery.

The Jews obviously didn't like his message and had him killed. Mohammad liked the iron fistted god of the Jews better, but was unhappy with their monopoly on his congregation, so he wrote a new chapter, invalidating both the Jews and the frilly Christians claims to salvation.

If you don't think allah is all about ass whooping and domination, read up on the birth of Islam or even just look up the meaning of the word Islam.

[-TK-]

Or like this one, "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)"

oh wait.. wrong book.

This law was to apply to the Hebrew land of Israel as indicated by Moses in the context. It does not in any way indicate that Christians should kill non-believers just because they are non-believers. If you knew anything more about the context of this piece other than just Google'n shit to reinforce your arguments you'd realize that. It essentially says if you wish to live in the Hebrew lands, you must adhere to their laws and recognize their authority. Not like any country today does that.... :rolleyes:

I also fail to see how a Hebrew law from 3,000-4,000 years ago that is not practiced today makes Islam's killing of 'infidels' across the globe in modern times any less barbaric.

[iruinedyourday]

This is an ignorant bigot troll thread and will be gone soon.

[Lune]

Now for Christians it is a bit different. They follow the teachings of their namesake, Christ. Come back with similar language from him (reference books Mathew through John and even the subsequent letters if you are so inclined.

For Christians, Christ's death represented the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy and essentially the absolvement of sin, overturning Levitican law and the need for nasty punishments like stoning for things like adultery.

This is only a very recent development, with modern evangelicals finding a loophole to further adapt Christianity to an extremely secular culture (compared to how things used to be). Now you don't even need to read or understand the bible and find a uniform conclusion if you don't want to, just love Christ! Is there an icky part of the bible? Who cares! It's all about your love for Christ! And I doubt Catholics would appreciate being characterized as not following Christ's teachings, considering the accounts of Paul, Peter, disciples etc are believed to also be true accounts of what Christ wanted.

I always found it funny the few times I went to bible study with some Evangelical friends in college, that their way of internalizing their religion was sitting around finding ways to interpret and apply parts of the bible to modern life... and reeeaallly stretching it with the interpretations. I had a lot of respect for the good things they would glean from those sessions, but it was just so different from Catholic or Lutheran things I've attended.

[iruinedyourday]

moderate christian:

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/republican-candidates-condemn-planned-parenthood-attack.jpg?quality=75&strip=color&w=640

[ronasch]

If we all just claim to be followers of Planned Parenthood we can murder babies lawfully. Woot nothing wrong wit dat

[Tann]

"How to Trust a moderate Muslim?"

How to trust a pasty waif nerd at any US school these days?

[-TK-]

Don't think that I support any religion; moderate or extreme. Sitting here nit-picking each religion, thinking that one is inherently better than the other, gets nowhere and proves nothing except that they are all flawed and the common problem is really the human psyche. These posts are primarily meant to incite conflict and really shouldn't be here on this forum in the first place.

[ronasch]

This is an ignorant bigot troll thread and will be gone soon.

Said the bigot nevermore

[ronasch]

Don't think that I support any religion; moderate or extreme. Sitting here nit-picking each religion, thinking that one is inherently better than the other, gets nowhere and proves nothing except that they are all flawed and the common problem is really the human psyche. These posts are primarily meant to incite conflict and really shouldn't be here on this forum in the first place.

Waaaaa, I don't agree, censorship now. I demand it.

Btw please stop people from using science to debunk global warming too. My Fascism can't take it anymore.

P.S.
Think we're passed inciting conflict, that started around 627 AD

[maskedmelon]

This is only a very recent development, with modern evangelicals finding a loophole to further adapt Christianity to an extremely secular culture (compared to how things used to be). Now you don't even need to read or understand the bible and find a uniform conclusion if you don't want to, just love Christ! Is there an icky part of the bible? Who cares! It's all about your love for Christ! And I doubt Catholics would appreciate being characterized as not following Christ's teachings, considering the accounts of Paul, Peter, disciples etc are believed to also be true accounts of what Christ wanted.



Which loophole are you referring to? The books that I referenced comprise the new testament, all of which was written by Christ's apostles. Read it, any of it. It does not contain the same violence of the Talmund (Old Testament) or the Qur'an. It just doesn't. Christ was a pacifist.

The text is vitally more important than the people, because any organization/ideology is susceptible to adverse selection and exploitation, but the question of whether or not the text specifically allows for or encourages a behavior determines the degree to which exploitation is likely.

For Christians it took 1500+ years of extrapolation 300-400 of education and development to allow most Christians to focus on the text of their namesake and minimize (though not eliminate as seen in televangelists, catholic priests, etc.) exploitation.

The question at hand is can, Islam reach that point? The text suggests not.

For peace, Christ took a step forward for Jews. Mohamed took 3 backwards.

[James_Joyce]

It you think the Quran is sick, just wait until you read some of the creepier quotes in the Talmud and by highly esteemed rabbis with official positions in Israeli society.

[Lurikeen]

Most modern Christians choose to ignore most of the old testament, because the old testament is about as sadistic as the Quran, and it's no longer compatible with most Western cultures.

As a Christian I take issue with your haphazard remark which doesn't resemble Christian theology at all since the time our first councils rejected the errors of Marcion way back in the second century AD. In case you don't know, Marcion and his followers rejected the Old Testament scriptures and taught that the "God" of the New Testament destroyed the God of the "Old Testament." Any way, you are simply mistaken.

The fact of the matter is that so-called "modern Christians" do NOT ignore most of the Old Testament. Rather, they understand that the Old Testament records civil laws, among many other things, that pertained to the ancient Israelite civilization and had never applied outside the borders of that nation. Even the Jews themselves see their civil laws bounded within the borders of their own nation. For instance, we don't read about the Jews of the Diaspora taking the civil laws of Jerusalem, lets say, to cities in ancient Persia where they were dispersed. Another example, Jews aren't recorded stoning people to death in any civilization outside their own homeland.

By the time of Christianity, most Christians see Jesus as being the fulfillment of the law of Moses. So Christians do not adopt the civil laws or the dietary laws of the Jews. The only laws adopted are those spelled out by Jesus Himself regarding the ten commandments and those laws handed down by the Apostles of Jesus.

So no. "Most modern Christians" do not "Choose to ignore most of the old testament" as you erroneously claim.

[iruinedyourday]

As a Christian I take issue with your haphazard remark which doesn't resemble Christian theology at all since the time our first councils rejected the errors of Marcion way back in the second century AD.

considering you think bernie sanders is the devil, Id say you makea pretty good american however a terrible cristian.

The fact of the matter is that so-called "modern Christians" do NOT ignore most of the Old Testament.

Yea, they simply ignore EVERY teaching jesus stood for... they are infact the children of the devil and will cause the apocalypse and hopefully there is no lake of fire, because if there is, THEY will be the ones lamenating in it for eternity.

While I will party hard with Bernie in the clouds.

[Lurikeen]

considering you think bernie sanders is the devil, Id say you makea pretty good american however a terrible cristian.

Considering that you likely hold the ignorant pop-culture view that Jesus was some sort of socialist, I don't blame you for your uninformed judgement of me.

Yea, they simply ignore EVERY teaching jesus stood for... they are infact the children of the devil and will cause the apocalypse and hopefully there is no lake of fire, because if there is, THEY will be the ones lamenating in it for eternity.

While I will party hard with Bernie in the clouds.

WOW! You need to get out more.

[iruinedyourday]

Considering that you likely hold the ignorant pop-culture view that Jesus was some sort of socialist, I don't blame you for your uninformed judgement of me.

actual photo of jesus:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01567/mussolini1_1567977a.jpg

[Lurikeen]

actual photo of jesus:



Wrong again... this is a "actual photo of jesus"...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/20/bf/8e/20bf8ec7d37542586aa08dda344be8f8.jpg

[Barkingturtle]

Like any good fantasy writing, religion is escapist at its core. It allows the believer to escape harsh reality, personal accountability, general sanity, etc.. This was sort of quaint for a couple thousand years but for fuck's sake -- it's 2015. Shed your fear and superstition already, for the good of mankind.

To address the OP, I'd say any religious conviction causes me to doubt a person's trustworthiness and credibility and, frankly, their intellect. It's essentially a contagious mental illness -- like hip-hop music or anime. It's certainly not exclusive to Muslims.

[iruinedyourday]

The only laws adopted are those spelled out by Jesus Himself regarding the ten commandments and those laws handed down by the Apostles of Jesus.

Here, I updated your ever loving 10 commandments to actually try to come remotly close to what american christians actually believe.

You shall have no other gods before Me, except figures of state and reality celebrities.

You shall not make idols, unless idols are any of the above.

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. Actually no thats fine, dont worrya bout this one.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Or dont, who cares?

Honor your father and your mother, until you move out, then call them like once every 2 weeks.

You shall not murder, unless its a dirty, stinking muslim, or black person (becuse we know they were likely resisting). OR liberal, like if its a baby murdering doctor, u know.

You shall not commit adultery, unless you are a political figure, then have at it, boys AND girls are ok.

You shall not steal, unless it will affect the value of a stock or you already have a lot of money, if you can pay literatly nothing and indenture lower class populations to work for you, though that is technically stealing, is fine too.. basically steal EVERYTHING YOU CAN.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor unless he is one of those, dirty stinking muslims or black "resisters".. if you are reading this 30 years ago, also "commies" fall into this category, if you are confused about what a commie is, see socialist, but instead of trying to understand what a socialist is, just call it a communist and be done with it.

You shall not covet. Wait.. heh Stopped myself there, please covet EVERYTHING if not then your true idols and gods, also known as any republican candidiate, cant make a shit load of money stealing from everyone, while murdering everyone else.

[Lurikeen]

Here, I updated your ever loving 10 commandments to actually try to come remotly close to what american christians actually believe.

Why should any Christian allow you to speak for them? Would you like me to speak for you?

[iruinedyourday]

I'll take the bait.

You claim "religion is escapist at its core" as if everyone understands what you mean with "escapist." What do YOU mean with "escapist"?

it means they want to leave this shit existance and play with their dead parents in the clouds forever without working.

you know whats going to be funny? watching you get as mad as I get defending the meek from you, defending your fucking fake bastardized version of a religion that was meant to PROTECT THE MEEK

[Lurikeen]

it means they want to leave this shit existance and play with their dead parents in the clouds forever without working.

you know whats going to be funny? watching you get as mad as I get defending hte meek from you, defending your fucking fake bastardized version of a religion that was meant to PROTECT THE MEEK

Sorry, but I don't speak iruinedyourday. You must use English if you desire to communicate. Are you up to the task?

[Lurikeen]

Like any good fantasy writing, religion is escapist at its core. It allows the believer to escape harsh reality, personal accountability, general sanity, etc.. This was sort of quaint for a couple thousand years but for fuck's sake -- it's 2015. Shed your fear and superstition already, for the good of mankind.

I had asked for your definition of escapist in an earlier post which I deleted. However, I think you are somewhat clear with what you think "escapist" means in your above statement, so I have rewritten my comment. Is religion "escapist" as you define it? I suppose so in a certain respect. For instance, religion does allow its believers to "escape harsh reality." When the Jews were being systematically exterminated by the Nazis, I am certain that the faith of many of them gave them comfort as they entered into the gas chambers. Would you take that away from them?

I am also sure that as early Christians were fed to lions by the Romans that their faith in God gave them comfort against such a "harsh reality." Would you take that from them?

As Christians were getting their heads cut off by ISIS on the shores of North Africa, I am sure their faith gave them comfort. Would you take that away from them?

When a family suffering poverty in many of the ghettos found around the world pray to God for comfort in the time of their distress, I am sure that is a means to "escape." Would you take that away from them?

You see, you come across as a heartless ass when you think you are above the "escapism" all the poor souls below your level of intellect seek comfort in. Chances are that you are simply an arrogant hurting soul looking for answers just like the rest of us.

[Lune]

As a Christian I take issue with your haphazard remark which doesn't resemble Christian theology at all since the time our first councils rejected the errors of Marcion way back in the second century AD. In case you don't know, Marcion and his followers rejected the Old Testament scriptures and taught that the "God" of the New Testament destroyed the God of the "Old Testament." Any way, you are simply mistaken.

The fact of the matter is that so-called "modern Christians" do NOT ignore most of the Old Testament. Rather, they understand that the Old Testament records civil laws, among many other things, that pertained to the ancient Israelite civilization and had never applied outside the borders of that nation. Even the Jews themselves see their civil laws bounded within the borders of their own nation. For instance, we don't read about the Jews of the Diaspora taking the civil laws of Jerusalem, lets say, to cities in ancient Persia where they were dispersed. Another example, Jews aren't recorded stoning people to death in any civilization outside their own homeland.

By the time of Christianity, most Christians see Jesus as being the fulfillment of the law of Moses. So Christians do not adopt the civil laws or the dietary laws of the Jews. The only laws adopted are those spelled out by Jesus Himself regarding the ten commandments and those laws handed down by the Apostles of Jesus.

So no. "Most modern Christians" do not "Choose to ignore most of the old testament" as you erroneously claim.

Oh, is that the reasoning they went with to try and wiggle out of Old Testament laws? "They don't apply to us because we aren't Jews of the Kingdom of Israel" The fact of the matter is, in early days of Christianity, most OT lifestyle laws were unpalatable to Europeans and were thrown out, and scholars came up with your favorable, convenient interpretation to fill the gap, in the same way that facilitated the Catholic acceptance of evolution.

I'm not attacking your faith, but I don't think you can tell me with a straight face that the OT accounts of everything about Adam and Eve / Exodus / Genesis haven't been made so watered down and preposterous by modern understanding and poor theology so as to be a complete joke. I think very little of what the OT once was remains in the core identity of Christianity, and every time they bend the scripture to adapt it to a new century it comes a little closer to breaking.

[iruinedyourday]

Sorry, but I don't speak iruinedyourday. You must use English if you desire to communicate. Are you up to the task?

ok you nit wit.

the meek are the week and destitute, they are who jesus came to protect. It is up tot he christian religion to help them above all else.

The poor and the destitute are the people I and other SJW's hope to protect that are always under attack here on this fucked up forum. They're also specifically what social programs in socialist leaning policies are designed to protect.

basically everything you do as a GOP voter has nothing to do with what you believe. You would rather someone blew smoke up your ass calling you a god christian for cleansing the land of infidels and liberal scum.

you're the worst kind of christian, one that worships jesus the way a pagan does a burning effigy.

you will burn in lakes of hellfire for all eternity.

[Barkingturtle]

Chances are that you are simply an arrogant hurting soul looking for answers just like the rest of us.

I don't have a soul. Nobody does. This isn't Narnia or Middle Earth or Cybertron or whatever you fucking whacko. This is Earth.

Anyway, all those scenarios you listed, they're all riddled with false hope. For their sake, I'd rather those people quit praying and instead worked to escape those negative circumstances in a material way, a meaningful way. But if they want to sit around and tell stories to distract themselves from their situation, have at it. They should be honest with themselves, though, and accept that faith is merely masturbation, but done without any real chance of ever achieving orgasm. Now that's just crazy, imho.

[Lurikeen]

Oh, is that the reasoning they went with to try and wiggle out of Old Testament laws? "They don't apply to us because we aren't Jews of the Kingdom of Israel" The fact of the matter is, in early days of Christianity, most OT lifestyle laws were unpalatable to Europeans and were thrown out, and scholars came up with your favorable, convenient interpretation to fill the gap, in the same way that facilitated the Catholic acceptance of evolution.

You say "The fact of the matter is, in early days of Christianity, most OT lifestyle laws were unpalatable to Europeans and were thrown out." What are you talking about? Most of the "OT lifestyle laws were unpalatable" to the rest of the world. You seem to be thinking you're making a good point, but you're not. You're actually making my earlier point for me.

[Lurikeen]

I don't have a soul. Nobody does. This isn't Narnia or Middle Earth or Cybertron or whatever you fucking whacko. This is Earth.

Anyway, all those scenarios you listed, they're all riddled with false hope. For their sake, I'd rather those people quit praying and instead worked to escape those negative circumstances in a material way, a meaningful way. But if they want to sit around and tell stories to distract themselves from their situation, have at it. They should be honest with themselves, though, and accept that faith is merely masturbation, but done without any real chance of ever achieving orgasm. Now that's just crazy, imho.

OK. You're a narcissist who is also a materialist. So why are you bothering to pop the balloons of everybody else's self-delusions? Why not allow people their "false hope." Does that make you feel uncomfortable that others have hope?

[iruinedyourday]

The fact of the matter is if christians acted the way they were told to in the bible, theyd be acting like ISIS

and if christians acted the way jesus told them to act, theyd be fucking bernie sanders.

SO VOTE ACCORDINGLY OR BURN IN LAKES OF HELLFIRE

[Barkingturtle]

OK. You're a narcissist who is also a materialist. So why are you bothering to pop the balloons of everybody else's self-delusions? Why not allow people their "false hope." Does that make you feel uncomfortable that others have hope?

Your hope is detrimental to progress.

Everyone knows that the utopian Star Trek universe cannot come to pass until humans quit dividing themselves artificially. Quit being a scared idiot, come together and join us in the future.

And there's nothing narcissistic about accepting the natural world and one's place in it. However, there's something insidiously narcissistic about claiming a personal relationship with the creator of the universe, even going so far as to suggest existence was crafted solely to give you a home.

[Lurikeen]

ok you nit wit.

You mad bro?

the meek are the week and destitute, they are who jesus came to protect. It is up tot he christian religion to help them above all else.

Do you even read the Bible? Are you even a Christian? Or, are you a pew sitter who got pissed off at your church and walked out, but now you think you are a "preacher" of sorts to Christians?

The poor and the destitute are the people I and other SJW's hope to protect that are always under attack here on this fucked up forum. They're also specifically what social programs in socialist leaning policies are designed to protect.

Holy mother of Jesus! You really think you're here to "protect that are always under attack here on this fucked up forum?!" Do you messiah much?

basically everything you do as a GOP voter has nothing to do with what you believe. You would rather someone blew smoke up your ass calling you a god christian for cleansing the land of infidels and liberal scum.

Well, no, not a "god christian" but a Christian. As for the infidels, I am one of them, too. But I am not a "liberal scum."

you're the worst kind of christian, one that worships jesus the way a pagan does a burning effigy.

you will burn in lakes of hellfire for all eternity.

So do you think I will be able to do the breast stroke as I burn in the lake?

[Lurikeen]

Your hope is detrimental to progress.

Everyone knows that the utopian Star Trek universe cannot come to pass until humans quit dividing themselves artificially. Quit being a scared idiot, come together and join us in the future.

And there's nothing narcissistic about accepting the natural world and one's place in it. However, there's something insidiously narcissistic about claiming a personal relationship with the creator of the universe, even going so far as to suggest existence was crafted solely to give you a home.

OK, well I think our hope is with the Vulcans. Maybe with a Vulcan - Klingon alliance, but we can probably handle the Romulans with only the Vulcans on our side.

Oh, and before you quip that I ignored the "meat" of your assertion, I didn't. If you really think all religion is a fantasy, then there is no reasoning with you. You can't start presenting modernistic arguments against religion if you think it is all just a cartoon.

[Lune]

You say "The fact of the matter is, in early days of Christianity, most OT lifestyle laws were unpalatable to Europeans and were thrown out." What are you talking about? Most of the "OT lifestyle laws were unpalatable" to the rest of the world. You seem to be thinking you're making a good point, but you're not. You're actually making my earlier point for me.

Many of the essential elements of early Christianity did not make it 500 years after Christ's death, and many more didn't make it 1000. The "laws" of Christianity that were accepted differed by each region and culture. You're saying OT laws were rejected on theological grounds, I'm saying the reasons were cultural first. That's it. People didn't immediately reject OT laws because they were intended for Hebrews, and again, some OT accounts, such as the creation mythos, persisted. Even today you have people quoting Leviticus and Genesis to justify intolerance for homosexuals, including the Catholic Church (which manages the theology of over a billion Christians), and OT thematic elements are still a huge part of Christian identities even though it's a book about a hateful genocidal maniac.

This is an important observation because it gives us insight into the way religions and denominations involve in the first place, which gets back to the original point of my input into this discussion: Christianity tends to react differently to the passage of time than Islam does.

[maskedmelon]

Oh, is that the reasoning they went with to try and wiggle out of Old Testament laws? "They don't apply to us because we aren't Jews of the Kingdom of Israel" The fact of the matter is, in early days of Christianity, most OT lifestyle laws were unpalatable to Europeans and were thrown out, and scholars came up with your favorable, convenient interpretation to fill the gap, in the same way that facilitated the Catholic acceptance of evolution.

I'm not attacking your faith, but I don't think you can tell me with a straight face that the OT accounts of everything about Adam and Eve / Exodus / Genesis haven't been made so watered down and preposterous by modern understanding and poor theology so as to be a complete joke. I think very little of what the OT once was remains in the core identity of Christianity, and every time they bend the scripture to adapt it to a new century it comes a little closer to breaking.

You area really showing your ignorance here Lune =/ and just coming across as angry rather than reasoned. You're completely ignoring the essence of Christianity.

[Barkingturtle]

You area really showing your ignorance here Lune =/ and just coming across as angry rather than reasoned. You're completely ignoring the essence of Christianity.


Cognitive dissonance?

I actually think he's addressing it pretty directly.

[Lune]

You area really showing your ignorance here Lune =/ and just coming across as angry rather than reasoned. You're completely ignoring the essence of Christianity.

Tell me more about the essence of Christianity. Which denomination's essence are you talking about? Catholics? Lutherans? Mennonites? Because they are all pretty different.

Let's start with one of the basic fundamentals of OG Christianity: compassion for the poor. He who is humbled shall be exalted, right? Paul the Apostle made a big deal about this.

For over 1500 years there was an identity crisis between the core of Christ's message toward poverty and greed, and basic economic reality. Most Europeans wouldn't even lend money and charge interest for centuries. As late as the 1600's people were writing plays like Cenodoxus and Faust about the dangers of wealth and pride, people who burned in hell for making too much money and being proud of their accomplishments. Modern Christianity, and modern Christian nations, are so unlike Christ's original teachings it astounds me. It was a trend among Spanish nobles to see who could live in conditions of poverty with the most ostentation, and who could go on the longest beggar pilgrimages.

I'm pretty sure that simply by rejecting capitalism, I'm almost as Christian as you guys are.

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:25 is pretty clear, as is Luke 14:11

[Lurikeen]

Many of the essential elements of early Christianity did not make it 500 years after Christ's death, and many more didn't make it 1000.

What you are claiming here shows an immense amount of ignorance on your part. In fact, "many of the essential elements of early Christianity" not only made it through the first "500 years after Christ's death" but served as the foundation for the creeds of Christianity.

Seriously, the rest of your claims are equally as misinformed. For instance you try to set up a dichotomy between theology and culture where the Israelite culture is concerned and that is a huge mistake. Theology IS culture and the culture IS theology. That is also the very same mind set for early Christianity. There is no such thing as theology apart from life. The only idea you can get of theology apart from life comes to you through the Enlightenment philosophers where we get such separations.

You then make an interesting trollish remark with, "Even today you have people quoting Leviticus and Genesis to justify intolerance for homosexuals." If you want to ask me if I think homosexuality is a wrong, just ask me. I will tell you now, I think homosexuality is a transgression against God.

[iruinedyourday]

The guy who doesn't understand the basic definitions of the political parties active today, is going to sit here and explain to you the truth behind the 2000 year old Christian religion.








Dis gon b goood

[maskedmelon]

so unlike Christ's original teachings it astounds me.



Those are what I am talking about, you seem to be caught up with the people. Is that your actual issue w/ Islam as well? Do you not have any actual concerns about the ideology and more just a distaste for the people practicing it?




I'm pretty sure that simply by rejecting capitalism, I'm almost as Christian as you guys are.



I'm not Christian. You know what they say about when you assume something right?

[Lurikeen]

The guy who doesn't understand the basic definitions of the political parties active today, is going to sit here and explain to you the truth behind the 2000 year old Christian religion.








Dis gon b goood

Or, the guy who dinged a level in a fantasy role play game is going to to be as arrogant as to try to lecture someone with a degree in political science and who has worked in politics.

Yeah, you're a "special" guy/gal/combo/it

[George_Costanza]

Or, the guy who dinged a level in a fantasy role play game is going to to be as arrogant as to try to lecture someone with a degree in political science and who has worked in politics.

Yeah, you're a "special" guy/gal/combo/it

Are you putting "special" in scare quotes to imply you mean "retarded", the word you scare quoted in your other post?

You're just looking for excuses to spout hate speech. Quit while you're ahead.

[Lurikeen]

Are you putting "special" in scare quotes to imply you mean "retarded", the word you scare quoted in your other post?

You're just looking for excuses to spout hate speech. Quit while you're ahead.

Hey, don't forget your flaming stake as you try to strike into the heart of your Dracula. LOL. What a moron you are!

[iruinedyourday]

Or, the guy who dinged a level in a fantasy role play game is going to to be as arrogant as to try to lecture someone with a degree in political science and who has worked in politics.

Yeah, you're a "special" guy/gal/combo/it

Lol i hope you got aids fucking hundreds of bitches while you got that degree, cus you sure didnt get an education.

[iruinedyourday]

On a side note tho i love how larkwn always respects my skill in the game.

[Lurikeen]

Lol i hope you got aids fucking hundreds of bitches while you got that degree, cus you sure didnt get an education.

You hope I got Aids? Are you for real? What kind of moron are you? Holy shit, I would never wish aids even on my enemies.

[iruinedyourday]

Its a gammer expression. Besides there are cures now. What i was getting at is i hope ypu had fun. Cus like i said, you didnt learn anything about politix

[Lune]

a degree in political science


There it is again lol

I think I'm more qualified to speak here because I got my degree in something that wasn't stupid.

Also higher GRE test scores.

And my penis is longer.

[iruinedyourday]

This dude got his degree in poly sci and doesn't t know the diff from communism and socialism lol

[Sidelle]

This is an ignorant bigot troll thread and will be gone soon.
You calling people in this thread bigots. Priceless. So I guess it's not the same thing when you do it because you only hate Christians and Jews? Lol
Lol i hope you got aids fucking hundreds of bitches while you got that degree, cus you sure didnt get an education.

Its a gammer expression. Besides there are cures now. What i was getting at is i hope ypu had fun. Cus like i said, you didnt learn anything about politix
Your stupidity is astonishing. Please continue, by all means. It's vaguely amusing. Oh wait, I have an idea. Why don't you just skip to the part when you completely lose your shit and post comments like "FUCK YOUR FACE!!"

That was funny shit the other day. ;)

[Pokesan]

Will Sidelle ever make a post that is not about IRYD's post history?

Stay tuned for the next episode of vapid cunt weekly!

[Sidelle]

Defending your lady love again. Have you forgotten that white-knighting will not result in IRYD's instant anal surrender? Or maybe it will... lol

Good luck with that either way. It's good to not be a quitter. :)

[Pokesan]

Defending your lady love again. Have you forgotten that white-knighting will not result in IRYD's instant anal surrender? Or maybe it will... lol

Good luck with that either way. It's good to not be a quitter. :)

I wanted to be extremely mean but have decided against it.

So I'll just say you will never know the joy of swordfighting and should also stop posting about posting.

[sOurDieSel]

Besides there are cures now.

rofl, there isn't any medical cure for aids.

There is however a cure for the pozzed USA.

Trump 2016

[James_Joyce]

last 5 posts were absolutely delightful. I'm making this post so I can get post #69 next

[James_Joyce]

mutual fellatio

[James_Joyce]

rofl, there isn't any medical cure for aids.

There is however a cure for the pozzed USA.

Trump 2016

this deserves to be quoted, such truth is rarely spoken on this board.

This is a picture of TRUMP and his VP pick going to town on ISIS and ethics in videogame journalism.

https://i.imgur.com/pmWPSoJ.png

[myriverse]

OK. You're a narcissist who is also a materialist. So why are you bothering to pop the balloons of everybody else's self-delusions? Why not allow people their "false hope." Does that make you feel uncomfortable that others have hope?
Because their self-delusions hurt others.

[iruinedyourday]

Relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEnWw_lH4tQ

[Lurikeen]

Because their self-delusions hurt others.

But your atheistic self-delusion doesn't? Got it.

[Baler]

† I love you all and I forgive your trespasses.

[iruinedyourday]

50 mil muslims start peace campain and denounce ISIS (http://www.itakelibertywithmycoffee.com/2015/12/50-million-muslims-start-peace-campaign-and-openly-denounce-isis/)

[Orruar]

50 mil muslims start peace campain and denounce ISIS (http://www.itakelibertywithmycoffee.com/2015/12/50-million-muslims-start-peace-campaign-and-openly-denounce-isis/)

50 million? Golly gee, that's like 5% of the worldwide Muslim population! Only something like 12x more think death is the appropriate punishment for atheists and homos, and only like 4x more think murder of non-Muslims in terrorist attacks is A-OK.

[iruinedyourday]

50 million? Golly gee, that's like 5% of the worldwide Muslim population! Only something like 12x more think death is the appropriate punishment for atheists and homos, and only like 4x more think murder of non-Muslims in terrorist attacks is A-OK.

whats your solution, kill them all?

[Lurikeen]

whats your solution, kill them all?

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-nuke-them-from-orbit-3.png

[myriverse]

How can they be trusted with verses like this taken from their holy book?

"Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah – unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions. If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harbouring inner animosity for them... Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers – except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them." Sura 3:28

"But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers." Sura 3:54

My religion says thou shall not lie. What's yours say?
You realize, of course, that "thou shall not bear false witness against another" also supports lying to heathens. So how are we to trust Christians? Or Jews? Or anybody...

[Pokesan]

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-nuke-them-from-orbit-3.png

niiiice, i love me some keep calm memes!

epic bro

[James_Joyce]

whats your solution, kill them all?

Leave the Israeli criminals to fall into the maw of the wolves they've been abusing. I'll bet they smell tasty with that fresh blood on their hands. Let the millions of children who know nothing but war because of them trample their illegal apartheid state and take their justice. Eject open Zionist sympathizing Jewish supremacists to Israel first and let them fight for their sick ambitions with their own hands.

When the only option left for the survival of a people is to become backwards savages, that is what they must do. There is nothing immoral about the struggle for survival. Expecting Muslims to go quietly into chains and death like their idiot Christian counterparts is insane. We haven't all been so steeped in Jewish supremacist propaganda since birth that we can be satisfied with "Berniegibs 2016".

Remove the selection pressures that require a violent fundamentalist ideology, and watch Muslim humans naturally gravitate toward the quieter and saner existence all humans desire. That is a happy future we will see only if we can abandon 20th century notions of racial and ideological supremacy, and abolish the ancient custom of master-slave relations kept alive by widespread interest slavery. Which aint gonna happen, plus Samson Option, so uh, nuke 'em from orbit I guess?