Rogues, Mrylokar Dagger/Vyemm's Fang/Claw of Lightning + epic

[syztem]

So I posted this in server chat originally but aside from the already known fact that blue has had good luck with vulak weapons(mrylokar daggers in general) and I don't know about vyemm fangs. I am curious what blue rogues are parsing, if any actually are with these in mainhand with epic offhand.

Claw obviously you can't MH but Vyemms Fang seems like a very nice alternative MH for straight PVE encounters. The average backstab parses a bit lower, but the average hit is much lower then one would think, making the attack speed + damage fast as hell. I am not a primal rogue, about 6 of my guild rogues are. And I used to usually fall somewhere in the middle or the bottom in terms of DPS on fights. Ever since switching fang MH it is a lot easier to keep up with them if not surpass more often. I have something like 1322 ATK with CoTP, primal puts these other rogues into the upper 1400s and 1500atk+ with bards.

Here is a vulak fight parse:

PrimalRogue_1 62k @83dps (6.38%) <-- was with a bard, epic proc + ervaj.

Me_00 55k @73dps (5.65%)

PrimalRogue_2 52k @70dps (5.4%)

PrimalRogue_3 52k @70dps (5.35%)

PrimalRogue_4 50k @67dps (5.15%)

PrimalRogue_5 49k @68dps (5.1%)

So the fights have been looking pretty similar to this since going fang MH, Personally from past parses Just being equal or slightly ahead is easily a 5-8k dmg gap. Account for some RNG on backstabs, and hits etc I still think I did pretty well.

We have no mrylokar daggers, or other vyemm fang rogues to compare to on red. rogue #1, #2, and #4 are epic/claws. #3 is Kreizens Flame. So I don't suppose any blue rogues have been keeping up parses to see? Old school information shows that Vyemm Fang MH should outbeat epic easily, but I can't find anything pre-dating the backstab modifier addition to rogues even though fang didn't give it afaik but mrylokars did? Mrylokars would be best MH with epic offhand and probably vyemms fang range slot from everything ive found(except on pvp server preference might come to a primal bow).

Maybe within a month I will have primal to test equally, i THINK right now the best outside of mrylokar dagger(which I will take a while to acquire, since rogues in my guild have been waiting months for it to drop) Would maybe be epic/claw with vyemm offhand?? or if anyone can provide some parses, or their view anything is appreciated.

[Endonde]

As of right now Vyemm's fang is bettter than Myrlokar Dagger for main hand, Mrylokar Dagger does seem to have the backstab modifier on this server so you will be able to deal max backstabs with it even though it's currently a 12 dmg wep.

The difference between the two currently is pretty small, however in the near future Mrylokar dagger get's upgrades, and becomes far and away the best main hand.

Also I wouldn't look at a parse from any one specific encounter and try to make any assumptions based on that, unfortunately there is too much RNG involved in EQ rogues to tell anything without extensive testing.

[syztem]

The vulak listed was just one of many many parses, I have other fights ie dain, ntov dragons, AoW, trash mobs, fear/draco.

[Pint]

Post more fights please

[syztem]

unfortunately doesn't really do much good unless someone else has parses, primal and non primal with mryo or fang. Small chance any of said rogues even parse, let alone post.

[Ele]

Mrylokar Dagger does seem to have the backstab modifier on this server so you will be able to deal max backstabs with it even though it's currently a 12 dmg wep.

I checked with nilbog on that a while back and he couldn't see anything on the weapon in the database that would cause that.

[Akashx]

I don't post really but ill drum something up for you soon.

[Pint]

unfortunately doesn't really do much good unless someone else has parses, primal and non primal with mryo or fang. Small chance any of said rogues even parse, let alone post.

I just want to see what you're parsing vs all the ragebringer mainhand rogues in my guild, I have a good general idea of what they can put out. Fights without dodging and slow aoes would be ideal

[syztem]

Dain:

Me 30k @68dps (7.01%) ---
PrimalRogue_C 28k @63dps (6.46%) ---
PrimalMonk_CH 26k @58dps (5.97%) --- primal monk
Rogue_SP 20k @45dps (4.68%) --- epic/mithril for the most point
Rogue_I 18k @41dps (4.13%) --- basically epic/mithril too
PrimalRogue_Gr 17k @38dps (3.98%) - was on rampage, ended up dying no idea what %


Tormax:

PrimalRogue_C 23k @97dps (5.67%) ---
Me 20k @81dps (4.81%) ---
PrimalRogue_CS 19k @79dps (4.66%) ---
PrimalRogue_Gr 16k @67dps (3.99%) ---
PrimalMonk_B 16k @63dps (3.77%) ---
Rogue_P 15k @63dps (3.76%) - epic/crap offhand

Vindi:

PrimalRogue_G 7k @108dps (0.54%) ---
PrimalRogue_CS 6k @82dps (0.42%) ---
Me 5k @79dps (0.39%) ---
PrimalMonk_B 5k @81dps (0.38%) ---

Dracoliche: (hitbox is bad on this one, so I stuck to its back left foot pretty well, not sure how well others kept up this could be a hit or miss)

Me 31k @84dps (13.44%) ---
PrimalRogue_C 27k @73dps (11.82%) ---
Rogue_I 23k @60dps (9.75%) ---
Monk 18k @49dps (7.89%) ---
Rogue_D 16k @43dps (6.94%) ---
PrimalRogue_Gr 14k @39dps (6.18%)

Zlexak:

PrimalRogue_G 12k @47dps (7.94%) ---
Me 11k @44dps (7.57%) ---
Primal_MonkCH 9k @36dps (6.09%) ---
PrimalRogue_CS 9k @34dps (5.79%) ---
MonkSP 7k @28dps (4.73%) ---
RogueDz 7k @30dps (4.54%)

Koi:

PrimalRogue_M 18k @85dps (6.19%) ---
PrimalRogue_G 17k @80dps (5.74%) ---
Me 16k @77dps (5.47%) ---
PrimalRogue_Ck 15k @73dps (5.24%) ---
PrimalRogue_C 15k @68dps (5%) ---
PrimalMonk_CH 14k @67dps (4.91%)


Keeper:

PrimalRogue_G 19k @91dps (6.83%) ---
PrimalRogue_GR 17k @83dps (6.16%) ---
Me 16k @83dps (6.05%) ---
PrimalRogue_CS 14k @71dps (5.29%) ---
PrimalMonk_CH 13k @63dps (4.67%) ---
Monk 12k @60dps (4.44%)

Telk:
PrimalRogue_M 11k @103dps (8.05%) ---
PrimalRogue_C 9k @85dps (6.64%) ---
PrimalRogue_GR 9k @83dps (6.54%) ---
Me 8k @82dps (6.39%) ---
PrimalRogue_CS 8k @71dps (5.67%) ---
PrimalRogue_G 7k @69dps (5.42%)


I have other fights like klandi, zlandi etc but those are way too different and resist dependent etc. Labeled rogues so I would remember, and can look back at it to know who was who instead of just going down the list as 1 2 3 4. And aside from that, I just got the fang like a week ago so thats as much as ive parsed.

Also @ mrylo dagger is really its 12 dmg version? I thought it was the 15? I couldn't find anyone on blue to link it to me to see, Nor do I know how many mrylokar daggers or vyemm fangs blue has. I log everything, so I will be looking forward to comparing these pre primal parses to post primal.

Edit - I should add, normally pop duelist especially when kunark was the era because 32k hp mobs. With vyemm fang, I am curious if Deadeye is 100% the way to go now over duelist. I always remembered deadeye being the go-to disc for velious+ era due to duelist only being worth it in pvp and low hp mobs for burst. Deadeye nets you 3 backstabs guaranteed, plus with fang MH that is a lot of swings.

[grannock]

Why isnt the vulak dagger a better version, every other item in the game is the later versions?

[Endonde]

Why isnt the vulak dagger a better version, every other item in the game is the later versions?

This isn't true, there are other items in the game currently that aren't upgraded yet.

It's just natural, the dev's are dealing with hundreds of items, a lot of which were changed at various points in Velious. They missed some items but that's understandable.

[syztem]

I am guessing what he meant is, its the end game content bis weapon for a class. It is super hard to overlook, or not receive feedback about. But im sure they already know, probably just doing one giant patch all at once.

[Freakish]

There was a post by Nilbog somewhere stating that if there is a timeline including what items got upgraded in what patch it could be fixed. The problem is that a lot of items got updated and were not included in patch notes so it's a lot of research checking every item that received an update and when since it was not all in a single patch.

[Ele]

Not exactly.

What needs to happen for this is a compilation of what items changed, when, and how.

It's not exactly a difficult task, but it is certainly time consuming. We opted to not hold back Velious release simply for timelining items.

That being said, I would like all the items to be corrected at some point, but due to the amount of research necessary, it should probably be a community effort.



This is one of the only items I changed, as an example to the other developers how the timeline changes function.

For example, Mrylokar's Dagger of Blood will exist until ~June2001, at which time it dynamically becomes Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance.

Currently the plan is to skip over Zepheria's Dagger of Blood that replaced Mrylokar's Dagger of Blood from June 2001-October 2001, when Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance came out. :(

Also looks like Feast of Blood changed quite a bit over time.
Mrylokar's Dagger of Blood should have a 100pt lifetap proc.
Zeriphra's Dagger of Blood should be a 25pt lifetap proc.
Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance should be a 3 tick - 30hp/tick lifetap dot.

[JurisDictum]

There seem to be some obvious non-classic things going on with rogue dps. The Myrokar dagger shouldn't be backstabbing as hard as the epic, and there were no +%backstab mods until Luclin.

[Akashx]

Mostly main handing Mrylokar's Dagger+Offhand Vyemm's Fang. Have primal spear.

This is an aoe avoiding fight.
Zlexak in 343s, 21k @61dps --- Akashx 21k @61dps

This is the latest straight up fight i can find.
Lendiniara the Keeper in 287s, 30k @104dps --- Akashx 30k @104dps

Some fights are better some are worse because of rng primal proc and rng in general. Also the availability of bards and rangers.

[syztem]

mm interesting to see, how true do you find yourself backstabbing like a 15dmg weapon mh if at all? With vyemm fang in MH, after a couple bosses vs old parses with epic mh I can get a good idea of my average backstab damage via parsing. For kunark content Vyemm fang still seems to be the best for me atm.

In velious content it seems to pay off the most especially on high AC mobs where you usually hit min backstabs 120 120 and the offhands 15dmg can easily make up for some high hits while fangs mh speed and primary bonus dmg hits fairly hard. If i duelisted a kunark boss/dragon I can regularly see 100-120 pierce spam from fang and up to around 150-160 or so from epic.

Still considering deadeye, by everything I remember on live it should be the best disc to jump to in velious for guaranteed hits + x3 backstab lands but I haven't seen much mention of this, still people going for burst dmg on high hp and or ac targets.

[Endonde]

Unfortunately to figure out which is better would take a significant amount of testing that i'm really not willing to do at the moment.

My gut feeling is that Duelist would be better overall though. On the off chance you pop duelist and get a lot of Backstab misses obviously Deadeye would have been better but in my experience you're normally going to hit over 50% of your backstabs which would make Duelist the better option.


If you really want to test it though I'd suggest making a spreadsheet that tracks avg hit/miss, anything near 50% might support using Deadeye, but I feel like it's going to be more like 65% hit chance.

[Freakish]

Both are very short duration discs. Back in Kunark I experimented with both and I enjoyed deadeye for the guaranteed dps increase but all it takes is getting lucky on a dueling backstab for it to be better.

[Ele]

just imagine if you could proc primal pre-fight by hitting a corpse.

[Colgate 2.0]

just imagine if you could proc primal pre-fight by hitting a corpse.

idk if this is a tongue-in-cheek comment or if you guys can't do that on blue?

[Freakish]

We cannot hit corpses on blue.

[Colgate 2.0]

ah we can on red, but only PC corpses

weird

[Nirgon]

ah we can on red, but only PC corpses

weird

classic pvp mechanic as bug reported and intentional

[Ele]

ah we can on red, but only PC corpses

weird

red gets corpse procing and classic casting mechanics!?

[Daldaen]

red gets corpse procing and classic casting mechanics!?

Classic for another 2? Months.

I wonder if they will go classic once that era patch comes. Or if they will stay custom and keep duck casting forever.

[Colgate]

red gets corpse procing and classic casting mechanics!?

yaw

[quido]

It's not too late to try red, Ele.

[syztem]

Will update soon as I get some primal parses. Finally had another fang drop to parse against also.

[Akashx]

Primal can be good and bad. If you proc quickly it is very good. If you don't, and you have better weapons you could be using it can be bad. I had an avatar of war fight the other week where i didnt proc until it was at 40%. The best primal usage is timing it by hitting something else for a proc before the mob comes in such that you know avatar will cover the whole fight, but that can be a luxury if you are having to do an extra job or the engage is super fast.

[Xaanka]

Will update soon as I get some primal parses. Finally had another fang drop to parse against also.

I always run logs too ;)

[syztem]

Haven't done enough raids to get an equal amount of parses or more yet. But so far seems like MH fang with primal caps at 479, epic is 553. Anyone good at math want to do some calculations and figure out if a 479 max BS 13/17 weapon beats out epics 15/20 ratio? It is just too hard to tell with some parses alone, never know when one rogue is being lazy and not backstabbing constantly, or is not paying attention at all.

So far Fang still seems amazing, and with primal I went from average 200-300 backstabs to 400+ more commonly. The raw melee hits from auto attack went up like 10 points per, with haste and 17 delay ratio its just so damn quick. Would love to get some concrete proof that fang MH beats out epic for PVE.