Why no palies?

[thesphere]

Any time I do a "/who all paladin count", there's almost never anyone on. Certainly never as many as any other class.

Why is that? Just their sheer inability to solo effectively? Surely they solo better than rogues, right?

[Pint]

This is classic eq, the rarer something is the better it is. Obvious proof that paladin is the best class in the game.

[Danth]

There are several reasons for the lack of Paladins. First off, a fair portion of the population here regards hybrids as weak or worthless in general (that's just an observation--the debate itself is beyond the scope of this thread) and avoid those classes, so none of the hybrids are particularly popular. Second, P1999's community tends to favor classes that can solo; Paladins solo worse than the other hybrid types, further hurting its numbers. Third, the Paladin is probably the most specialized hybrid with the least overall versatility, and it's specialized towards a role (tanking for normal groups) that many players don't consider too important. On the other hand the class only has a relatively weak raid role--and many players pick their class with raid roles in mind. All this combines to result in the Paladin remaining the least popular class on P1999 year after year.

Danth

[Sylexis]

Divine Strength pls.

[Sylexis]

On a more serious note, warriors kind of take the lead in Velious, there are some fights you just can't survive without defensive, and paladin DPS is just sub par to boot. You pretty much need to be fully geared by the content you are in, in order to tank the content you are in, creating a catch 22 that most paladins don't ever live though.

[Ronnie328]

I saw an epic erudite pally the other day. The experience itself was epic.

[Hroth]

Paladins have horrible DPS. Even overly twinked, a paladin will level slower while soloing than pretty much any other character with equivalent gear. Plus as has been said, paladins really only excel as a group tank. They do that incredibly well, but most new people have a focus on what would be needed for raiding, even if odds are they'll never actually level high enough to raid.

It wasn't until PoP came out that paladins really started to shine IMO.

[Jimjam]

The GM's force most paladins to reroll as mindless massed killing and accumulation of wealth at all costs goes against the basic tenets of the class.

[haaschnp]

I've got a pally!

[Swish]

As a SK, I'd have to say we're better geared for trash tanking than paladins...plenty of aggro spells and more effective ones imo.

Flash of Light would be great if the mob didn't require that element of precision... too early and the mob is feared/bugged for 5-6 seconds, leaving you with nothing to tank. Too late and the mob has probably tagged anyone who was trying to sit.

Then there's the Stun line. Again, you got to time it right so that the mob is in the camp where you want it, aggro'd on you and hasn't upset anyone sitting nearby.

For those reasons alone I'll take my SK with disease cloud, shadow vortex (vortexing and prebuilding aggro on mezzed mobs is the best thing you'll ever do), and wave of enfeeblement if you get trained to get everything centered on you.

Warrior = best raid tank
SK = best trash tank
Paladin = low dps tank who doesn't raid tank or trash tank so effectively.


(just an opinion, of course... but the right one ;))

[pharmakos]

what level is your R99 SK swishy?

[Swish]

I never made on one red (yet) because the items are all stupid prices... but someday I will. Very much a SK at heart when it comes to tanking, not sure I could work as a warrior or paladin without getting pissed off about it.

...was 58 on blue though before retiring. If a new server came up tomorrow I'd roll a SK in an instant <3

[pharmakos]

paladins are so much better than shadow knights. SKs just have more cool factor.

[RDawg816]

paladins are so much better than shadow knights. SKs just have more cool factor.

Why do you say that? About paladins being so much better? Enlighten us....

[Swish]

Maybe Lay on Hands has an edge over Harm Touch, but thats only because HT can be resisted. Other than that, SK all the way <3

[RDawg816]

I'm with you Swish. I've played both. Pally takes longer to develop (FoL early and then 22 for stun I think? versus DC and CD both early (and arguably better.))

They can be dwarves, so there's that? Ninja flip might bring them slightly closer to SK until you remember feign death...

[Xaanka]

paladins have a buff in velious now i guess

[Issar]

Sorry Swish, skilled paladins are better group tanks than SKs. Multiple stun spells make for instant aggro, followed up with FoL to secure hate. The stuns allow for spell interrupts, which SK's don't have. A pally can park mobs for CC and breaking mez. Strong healing spells allow the pally to heal not only during downtime but in battle. This can allow the group healers to save mana, and at times, save lives. And of course, LoH. SK's are superior pullers to most, but monks are better in that realm.

As someone mentioned earlier, there are a lot people approaching P99 the way that they would new MMO's, which is with the mindset of end game raiding. What they are overlooking is the fact that the majority of P99 are not doing cutting edge raid content. And no one cares what class you bring to Hate/Fear and other lower tier raids. EverQuest is about building your character and most of your time in this game is spent either in groups or solo (depending on your preference). Frankly, if you're playing EQ simply to raid, then it's the race and the politics you enjoy, not the challenge of content. If you're playing this game for challenging raid content, you're playing the wrong game.

[Jimjam]

BTW Swish, if you ever do seriously decide to Red Paladin I have a Sword of Mourning on a retired paladin someone gave me because there were literally no rich paladins to sell it to.

Thanks whoever gave me that all those years ago!

[phacemeltar]

disease cloud, although high threat, does not pair well with cc.

[Farzo]

Most people dont play Paladins right that is they hold their LoH's, they dont CC, they dont stun, they dont pacify.

The psych of a Paladin is to be a defensive tank/crowd controlling/snap agro gloryboy who saves lives when it counts. Shadowknights have alot of solo utilities and are pretty OP in that regards (CoS, FD, Summon Corpse, Self DMF, Life taps).

Lay On Hands is gunna save lives, it's going to save groups from wipes. When your chanter gets mega agro as he is chain mezzing 5 mobs and he hits that 20% hp mark. Now's your time to shine and pop yoir healing touch, stun the mobs and help him CC all while holding agro on a mob. Without a paladin doing this the group wipes.

Paladins get Enstill. Use it. Use it to get mobs off people. Use it to get agro use it to crowd control. Whats that you say? 3 mobs inc no problems.

Always have 1-2 stuns up in xp/farm groups. Did you know you can stun a mob....then root it to get it the cleric? Did you know when that mob starts to cast ice comet you can stun it?

Whats that? No puller? No cc? No problem a paladin can step up and pacify that 3 mob pull in addition to ghetto CCing resist breaks/adds.

The amount of paladins I see who just melee and cast a few heals/stuns and think they are doing it right is about 80% of people who play Paladins.

Sit at all times between pulls to get maximum efficiency of your mana bar, your mana is your key to been a good paladin and a great Paladin.

The problem is the psych of mmo's has changed to DPS charts so people forget utility and if you're playing a Paladin for dps ur doing it waaaaaaaaaaaay wrong.

Also 90% rez at 59 gunna make you alot of Pals.

And dont get me started on the new HoT heal....that thing is OP.

[Farzo]

Having said all that: I'd still stuggest people people play a SK/Warrior over a Paladin simply on the basis that most eq players arent intuitive enough to maximize a Paladins potential and rather automode toons.

It's similar to a necro v chanter (you're gunna be doing more focused work as a chanter for greater results vrs auto playing on a necro and just fding when things go sour).

Warriors in my opinion are the more selfish tank choice out of the three because they require alot more "nurturing" in groups and agro management. Yeah they great dps and great raid tanks but rely heavily on the group make up for them and the group to function as effectively as a hybrid tanked group.

[Muggens]

I figure Paladin should be the most fun class to roleplay and have started a dwarf for the job. My dps is poor though, Im looking to buy an FBSS or Hangmans Noose, I've 3,5k(can make alittle more but gotta sell sham gear), any takers? Casual player down on inspiration on my ogre, he's just too dumb and chased by da gubberment!

[pharmakos]

Farzo gets it.

also, paladins can solo by root jousting. i was soloing dark blue con dar ghoul knights in LGuk at level 48 with minimal gear. never got my paladin past level 50 so IDK how viable soloing is past 50, but soloing was a breeze once i got a beefy 2hander and realized how OP root jousting is.

i haven't tried it since Velious dropped. Tantor's Tusk is the ultimate root jousting weapon for paladins. i probably should get one and try it out.

its too bad no paladin races can use Weighted Axe.

[phacemeltar]

SK, on the other hand, benefits from more str.. Int/str easy as hell to come by, plus large races can't be paladins. Also, ogre racial. GG

I'm just saying.. SK has its uses, but paladin is still superior.

[ghost182]

Sorry Swish, skilled paladins are better group tanks than SKs. Multiple stun spells make for instant aggro, followed up with FoL to secure hate. The stuns allow for spell interrupts, which SK's don't have. A pally can park mobs for CC and breaking mez. Strong healing spells allow the pally to heal not only during downtime but in battle. This can allow the group healers to save mana, and at times, save lives. And of course, LoH. SK's are superior pullers to most, but monks are better in that realm.

As someone mentioned earlier, there are a lot people approaching P99 the way that they would new MMO's, which is with the mindset of end game raiding. What they are overlooking is the fact that the majority of P99 are not doing cutting edge raid content. And no one cares what class you bring to Hate/Fear and other lower tier raids. EverQuest is about building your character and most of your time in this game is spent either in groups or solo (depending on your preference). Frankly, if you're playing EQ simply to raid, then it's the race and the politics you enjoy, not the challenge of content. If you're playing this game for challenging raid content, you're playing the wrong game.

nailed it

[Swish]

I disagree and if I could play I can prove my SK is better than whoever wants to try and prove a paladin is better. I'd even do a vid tutorial.

Take KC basement as an example... with a typical set up (SK, monk puller, enchanter, cleric, rogue, shaman).

Monk pulls 4 mobs from turnkey and only realizes when they charge down the steps into the camp.

SK:-

disease cloud your target before it gets slowed, hit your assist macro...

(enchanter maybe tries an AE mez, or there's a combo of a single mez, cleric roots one, etc...everyone gets out of melee range)

While on your first target you start building aggro on your 2nd target with shadow vortex, then disease cloud your current target again at 50%ish to maintain your aggro.

Even consider a 'wave of enfeeblement' to get initial aggro and as they're mezzed/rooted pull the current target back so that the rogue or anyone else meleeing is out of range of the other 3.

If root or mez breaks on any of the other 3...shadow vortex it.

Disease cloud your current target again.

If #1 is not yet dead, a second shadow vortex on #2 (in line with it being remezzed or rerooted)

First one dies, engage #2 (its going to be more pissed about 2 shadow vortexes than anything anyone else has done to it).

Rinse/repeat on #2 to #3 and #3 to #4.... if anything gets lose just shadow vortex it and retarget your current mob, keeping out of melee range of the mezzed/rooted mobs.

It's that easy, just requires some light mob management to keep everyone else at full health and at worst... you're still the only target requiring heals.





What does a paladin do in that situation? Can he wave of enfeeblement to get initial aggro on 4 mobs? No.

He'll be either stuck trying to root the extras (not having control of where they're standing), FoL'ing out of melee range and perhaps risking a fear/glitch effect, or individually stunning them for aggro (stun breaks mez doesn't it? shadow vortex doesn't).

You have more control over the dismantling of a big pull as a SK, and at the same time allowing your enchanter/cleric/etc some guaranteed sit time instead of worrying that something is going to break and attack them rather than you.

That SK method works at any camp, from narrow corridors to open areas. If you want to retarget quickly, always be facing the other mobs to keep an eye on them, and cycle NPC target (not classic) to apply non-mez breaking aggro to #2/#3/#4 if they need it. You're the group's second enchanter, in a sense - you control the flow of the fights and if done properly it's very efficient and with a clarity it won't require any downtime at all.

(just my 2cp) :)

[Arteker]

there is more paladins keyed for sleeper than sks currently in blue

[valaka]

He heals the monk on inc.......

[Troxx]

I disagree and if I could play I can prove my SK is better than whoever wants to try and prove a paladin is better. I'd even do a vid tutorial.

No thanks, not necessary. Most of us have played eq (live vs p99) to judge the issue without a pointless argument.

Both tanks are fun to play and powerful in their own right. But whether it's raid or group, if I had to choose I'd take a paladin 9 times out of 10. Stuns, patch heals (superior healing), heal over times, rez capabilities, root, lull ... no contest.

SKs are fine, perfectly capable ... they just don't bring as much to the table from a tank/support standpoint.

[Danth]

(stun breaks mez doesn't it? shadow vortex doesn't).

Stun does not do any damage and hence does not break mez. Neither does Root, which can also be spammed on a mesmerized monster to build hate. Paladins and Shadow Knights are both capable in this respect. The higher-level stun spells (Holy Might and Force) deal damage and hence break mesmerize so you were probably thinking of those. The Shadow Knight's main advantage in terms of hate generation is that it can build more hate for less mana than the Paladin can*, giving it an easier time in fast-paced groups and especially in situations where Clarity isn't available.

I like my Shadow Knight plenty--it's been my main character for going on four years here on P1999. However, I like the Shadow Knight for its versatility. I agree with others that the Paladin offers the more complete defensive package when viewed solely as a tank for normal experience groups. That's its specialty. The Paladin suffers in popularity because most players choose to focus on some other aspect of the game. The Warrior's the better tank for major raid named for endgame-minded players, and the Shadow Knight offers better non-tanking quality of life than either while still being a good group tank or raid off-tank.

*Disease Cloud 10 mana, Clinging Darkness 20, versus Flash of Light 12 mana and Stun 35.

Danth

[Varren]

He heals the monk on inc.......


^

[Troxx]

Having played all 3 prior to live eq getting muddled up with mudflation and umpteen billion aas ... I will say that from a player's perspective:

-Warrior gets the satisfaction of being "the man" tank taking the point position for raids. Lack of aggro control made the class frustrating to play a times, but at the same time liberating in that aggro was the roll of the dice and out of your direct control other than basic gearing. Once weapon affinity aa's went live, aggro wasn't a huge problem, and it was very satisfying to be a warrior with exceptional aggro. The expectation for groups was low, so when you performed well it was noticed and appreciated. After aggro disc abilities were introduced, the lines for "snap aggro" where knights held the advantaged paved the way for knights getting defensive disciplines ... which ultimately underlining the whole point of the warrior (the net results being knights reigning king for 99% of content). For classic, they are a good balance of dps with tankability. With a group that doesn't suck and good gear, they're very rewarding to play.

-SK was a blast to play. Versatile, mobile, hostile - reasonable dps and feign death was a game changer. Arguably the king of aggro (more so after terrors were added - but even in classic), but did not bring as much to a group as a paladin in other regards. For heavy hitting content (raids vs trying to single group velious lesser raid content vs named) both knights suffer for a lack of defensive compared to warriors.

-Paladin was arguably the least fun to play - but very powerful and rewarding. Aggro is/was easy, healing capability really helps, but in a fast paced group there won't be a ton of extra mana available to really use this heal potential unless you're talking eras that are well beyond the scope of p99. For heavy hitting content (raids vs trying to single group velious lesser raid content vs named) both knights suffer for a lack of defensive compared to warriors.

So why no pallies in p99 (or very few)? They're simply not as fun to play. They are incredibly powerful and useful in good hands, but their personal dps blows ... solo ability is terrible ... and their contributions usually aren't fully appreciated by the community at large even if played well. I'd wager it's a thankless job they do, even when done well.


For eras well beyond p99 (think live once knights got defensive abilities and mudflated aa's/spells), knights really do run circles around warriors most of the time.

[Muggens]

So who has a FBSS for the most magnificent Paladin of them all ?

[Skittlez]

I soloed a paladin to mid 40's solo. Till 30 with Baton and Bronze.

[Arteker]

I disagree and if I could play I can prove my SK is better than whoever wants to try and prove a paladin is better. I'd even do a vid tutorial.

Take KC basement as an example... with a typical set up (SK, monk puller, enchanter, cleric, rogue, shaman).

Monk pulls 4 mobs from turnkey and only realizes when they charge down the steps into the camp.

SK:-

disease cloud your target before it gets slowed, hit your assist macro...

(enchanter maybe tries an AE mez, or there's a combo of a single mez, cleric roots one, etc...everyone gets out of melee range)

While on your first target you start building aggro on your 2nd target with shadow vortex, then disease cloud your current target again at 50%ish to maintain your aggro.

Even consider a 'wave of enfeeblement' to get initial aggro and as they're mezzed/rooted pull the current target back so that the rogue or anyone else meleeing is out of range of the other 3.

If root or mez breaks on any of the other 3...shadow vortex it.

Disease cloud your current target again.

If #1 is not yet dead, a second shadow vortex on #2 (in line with it being remezzed or rerooted)

First one dies, engage #2 (its going to be more pissed about 2 shadow vortexes than anything anyone else has done to it).

Rinse/repeat on #2 to #3 and #3 to #4.... if anything gets lose just shadow vortex it and retarget your current mob, keeping out of melee range of the mezzed/rooted mobs.

It's that easy, just requires some light mob management to keep everyone else at full health and at worst... you're still the only target requiring heals.





What does a paladin do in that situation? Can he wave of enfeeblement to get initial aggro on 4 mobs? No.

He'll be either stuck trying to root the extras (not having control of where they're standing), FoL'ing out of melee range and perhaps risking a fear/glitch effect, or individually stunning them for aggro (stun breaks mez doesn't it? shadow vortex doesn't).

You have more control over the dismantling of a big pull as a SK, and at the same time allowing your enchanter/cleric/etc some guaranteed sit time instead of worrying that something is going to break and attack them rather than you.

That SK method works at any camp, from narrow corridors to open areas. If you want to retarget quickly, always be facing the other mobs to keep an eye on them, and cycle NPC target (not classic) to apply non-mez breaking aggro to #2/#3/#4 if they need it. You're the group's second enchanter, in a sense - you control the flow of the fights and if done properly it's very efficient and with a clarity it won't require any downtime at all.

(just my 2cp) :)
he can cast grp heal for insane agro .
usualy best paladins will break ur mezs using regular stun then chain a 2 one with dd component .

[maskedmelon]

He heals the monk on inc.......

Bingo! Best way for ripping multi mob aggro from puller on inc as a pally. Heal puller, sit in mob path then just root them around the room or area you are at. Make the chanty feel useless and the monk feel ashamed for pulling so many at the same time ^^ Then just drop another round of roots on everything as group takes down the first mob while you flash it a couple of times ^^ Rinse, repeat, then sit and med between pulls to make sure you can do it again ^^

Of course if the monk has already flopped, did not mention multiples and the mobs are already pouring into the room, then someone else has aggro. Fortunately if you are being a good pally it should be you seated meditating peacefully who gets kicked in the face first ^^ Root away!

[pharmakos]

He heals the monk on inc.......

^^^ this. doesn't even require taking the second or two to target a mob, just keep the puller targetted when he's out and about.

[Varren]

Take that swish. Your sk dream was just that

Edit: oh wait youre sleeping right now. Healing up those sore muscles i expect. Check out the theracane for those times no one else is willing or available.

[xKoopa]

^^^ this. doesn't even require taking the second or two to target a mob, just keep the puller targetted when he's out and about.

wonder how sk heal does in this situation? i assume it would be similar

[RDawg816]

Well the sk heal isn't anywhere as good as a group heal for getting aggro. Not to mention I don't know any sk's that would have that on a spell slot when there are so many better spells to have on your bar...

[Swish]

he can cast grp heal for insane agro

Sounds expensive. Can a monk chain pull and the paladin not be bleeding mana?

[Swish]

Well the sk heal isn't anywhere as good as a group heal for getting aggro. Not to mention I don't know any sk's that would have that on a spell slot when there are so many better spells to have on your bar...

I never used it, I always had the smaller lifetap up just to keep myself alive if the cleric was napping.... and if it looked bad, FD always available to wake the cleric up ;)

[RDawg816]

I never used it, I always had the smaller lifetap up just to keep myself alive if the cleric was napping.... and if it looked bad, FD always available to wake the cleric up ;)

I actually used it in a group once. We had a Paladin tank in the scryer camp in Upper Guk. We didn't have a healer, so I dark empathy'd everyone and tapped myself back up. I kept that up for about 2 hours before we found a healer rep. I love unconventional groups. :)

[valaka]

Sounds expensive. Can a monk chain pull and the paladin not be bleeding mana?

He doesn't have to use group heal. One heal on the puller is enough to grab agro on every mob on the monk, even more than 4. Pally heal > wave of enfeeblement for grabbing multiple mobs off puller.

[Arteker]

He doesn't have to use group heal. One heal on the puller is enough to grab agro on every mob on the monk, even more than 4. Pally heal > wave of enfeeblement for grabbing multiple mobs off puller.

dont need heal we can use the stupid rune wich is even more agro

[pharmakos]

that Rune won't generate extra agro unless you're already on the mobs' hate lists, tho, right? since its self-only.

and whoever suggested the SK heal.... the SK heal-over-time isn't going to be nearly as effective as a pally heal.

and re: unconventional groups.... those are the sorts of situations where paladins really shine. :)

[Jabaniz]

I always enjoy playing with a good pally, though never played one. On live our guild had some good raid pallys who would offtank or rampage tank, seemed to make sense for aggro control and spot heals for themselves, a stun would go a long ways in keeping main healers alive.

[valaka]

I disagree and if I could play I can prove my SK is better than whoever wants to try and prove a paladin is better. I'd even do a vid tutorial.

Tell that to your cleric when your in seb and miss your bash then eat a 1100 hp ice comet.

[Swish]

Tell that to your cleric when your in seb and miss your bash then eat a 1100 hp ice comet.

If you're in an area with ice comet capable mobs you tend to get some resist/circle spells on the go. For a MT to be eating full ice comet damage is embarassing, plus most wizard frogs in Seb keel over so quick there's not much time to land one.

[Jaleth]

If you're in an area with ice comet capable mobs you tend to get some resist/circle spells on the go. For a MT to be eating full ice comet damage is embarassing, plus most wizard frogs in Seb keel over so quick there's not much time to land one.

I remember soloing undead froglok mages in lguk on live as a paladin. Nothing like stun locking those db mobs for the duration of the fight, hardly losing any health.

In groups I was root parking mobs, off healing, controlling the flow of fights on a whim. Even challenged dps classes, shamans, and enchanters to try to pull aggro off me from the beginning of each fight. No one ever could. Even had an experienced shadow knight try, yet couldn't, and I never memorized FoL in my spell bar.

From what I have garnered from your posts Swish, you know your stuff, so I won't debate on what you did as a shadow knight and how skilled you were. Most of us that had played knight classes in classic EQ became experts in the field. I only wish that someday I can be as good on my shadow knight here, as I was on my paladin on live.

[asteldian]

I just started up on p99 a few days ago and have gone with paladin. Back in the day when I played live the Pally was my tank of choice - Warrior was just really boring so I didn't play it much. SK was fun to an extent but I found them far less effective at saving a group's butt, so Pally was always my love.
I personally find them fun to play, but guess I am just odd. Course, dps was never a big thing for me - I picked a tank for a reason, so damage is low on my priority list, though obviously I do all I can within my class limitation.

I like that it is not popular though, makes me more unique! Hmm, on that note, if anyone's bank is cloggedup with Pally gear they cannot use or sell, I am not too proud to accept freebies :D

[Swish]

Likewise, I had a paladin to 20-21 on blue and after playing a SK for so long that I found it really difficult to tank effectively. I don't think I had stun at that point but couldn't land a FoL before everyone sitting got aggro...or landed it too early and the mob would glitch til it wore off.

Also when leveling my rogue I'd encounter paladins who'd stun an incoming mob before it got to the camp (CoM sort of levels), and we'd all stand there looking at it, waiting....waiting...

I guess there's just bad paladins around, maybe I'll get one to 60 sometimes and (pun intended)...see the light ;)

[Monty405]

I do wish cease and desist were within the time frame of p99

[Feanol]

I know this isn't a direct answer to the OP, but just had some thoughts bubbling as I read through the thread to this point.

I think the reason you see few Paladins is a classic example of the self-fulfilling prophecy.

People looking for advice on what class to play hear bad things about Paladins. Less players start Paladins. Less Paladins means there are fewer experienced ones playing to ask for class advice. It all just builds on itself to the point where new Paladins are having to find their way in the dark without a large Paladin community familiar with tactics and gearing.

And of course, a clever and attentive Paladin is better than some half-afk Enchanter or Shaman. This game has good players, not good classes.


As a side note, fuck fighting a Paladin on Red. Exercise in futility.

[pharmakos]

Likewise, I had a paladin to 20-21 on blue and after playing a SK for so long that I found it really difficult to tank effectively. I don't think I had stun at that point but couldn't land a FoL before everyone sitting got aggro...or landed it too early and the mob would glitch til it wore off.

Also when leveling my rogue I'd encounter paladins who'd stun an incoming mob before it got to the camp (CoM sort of levels), and we'd all stand there looking at it, waiting....waiting...

I guess there's just bad paladins around, maybe I'll get one to 60 sometimes and (pun intended)...see the light ;)

sheesh, you don't even get Root until 22, you didn't even really play that paladin!

[Swish]

No good spells til 22? Another reason the SK is better, shit gets good as soon as you hit 9 with disease cloud, then add darkness at 15 <3

[maskedmelon]

No good spells til 22? Another reason the SK is better, shit gets good as soon as you hit 9 with disease cloud, then add darkness at 15 <3

Yeah and iirc Paladin doesn't really come into its own until 30 when we get stun. Paladins are late bloomers ^^ A lot of fun after that though.

[valaka]

No good spells til 22? Another reason the SK is better, shit gets good as soon as you hit 9 with disease cloud, then add darkness at 15 <3

Sorry I guess I missed the other reason Sk's are better. The only thing a SK can do better than a paladin is solo (very slowly) and split mobs that cant be pacified. Pally > SK for exp groups.

[Danth]

If you think of the tank job solely as getting hit and holding opponents' attention, I can see why you'd think of the Shadow Knight as better. Both classes can generate similar threat but the SK can do so for lower mana expenditure. Critically, the Shadow Knight also does so while giving up fewer of its strengths. A mana-stingy Shadow Knight might lifetap a little less often. Big deal. A mana-stingy Paladin won't be chain-stunning or healing or doing the other things that make the class stand out (and, indeed, will feel basically like a SK who can't feign or invis or snare). The Shadow Knight shines in that scenario; conversely the Warrior isn't really a tank at all in such groups because by the time he finally gets aggro, the target's already dead and folks are switching to the next one and it's the Shaman doing most of the tanking.

Paladins have a more deliberate play style, and tend to gain value as the rest of their group gets worse (either due to lazy groupmates, or ineptitude, or imperfect group composition). If the Paladin has a tougher time keeping up in the above group, at least he can; the Shadow Knight can't do much of anything at all to save an Enchanter who's at 20% life because the Cleric was tabbed out reading Reddit instead of actually healing. The Shadow Knight certainly can't provide any buffs when the group has to settle for a Druid healer instead of a Cleric, and has some difficulty with interrupting caster or healer opponents (it can, but snare/fear requires a lot of setup time and isn't always practical in some tight spaces). Nor can the SK help out all that well with crowd control in groups that lack a mezzer or do much to reduce damage intake when the slower's too lazy to bother actually slowing anything and the healer's struggling for mana. The Paladin's the more complete defensive package by virtue of its greater ability to cover for such contingencies.

The Shadow Knight maintains marginally higher popularity simply because it solos better and has (arguably) a slightly better raid role. Look at the top four classes--Druids, Necromancers, and Shamans are all solo powerhouses, and Monks are usually regarded as the best solo'er of the pure melee types. The middle rankings are full of classes that don't solo well but are great on raids, such as Warriors and Clerics. The group-centric Rangers and Paladins tend to stay down at the bottom. Perhaps that's a bit strange for a group-centric game, but P99 is what it is.

Danth

[Jaleth]

I know this isn't a direct answer to the OP, but just had some thoughts bubbling as I read through the thread to this point.

I think the reason you see few Paladins is a classic example of the self-fulfilling prophecy.

People looking for advice on what class to play hear bad things about Paladins. Less players start Paladins. Less Paladins means there are fewer experienced ones playing to ask for class advice. It all just builds on itself to the point where new Paladins are having to find their way in the dark without a large Paladin community familiar with tactics and gearing.

And of course, a clever and attentive Paladin is better than some half-afk Enchanter or Shaman. This game has good players, not good classes.


As a side note, fuck fighting a Paladin on Red. Exercise in futility.

QFT

There were so many community websites for classes out there. I would frequent Paladins of Norrath from lore to tactics and advice. It was a plethora of knowledge that I would turn to nearly on a daily basis.
With the information we gained there, to actively seeking advice from higher level paladins in game we grew in knowledge, therefore efficiency. I always enjoyed passing down that knowledge to other paladins, and directing them to sites that could help them grow.

I believe shadow knights had something similar, Evilgamerz or something like that

[captnamazing]

I saw an epic erudite pally the other day. The experience itself was epic.

You must be talking about Sadad!

[Vexenu]

Paladins are amazing group tanks. They're up there with Bards and Enchanters in terms of how much they can singlehandedly carry a group through skillful play. Huge skill ceiling on the class, and very dependent on the player's attention to detail. People don't appreciate how ridiculously powerful root and stun are, especially on a tank. You just completely shut down caster mobs with stun, while root allows you total control over mob positioning and makes managing adds/mutiple pulls/group caster agro almost painless. Heals, lulls, rez, LoH and Cleric buffs are just icing on the cake.

The reason no one plays them is because they really aren't good for anything else besides group tanking. They're one of the worst solo classes, one of the worst raid classes, one of the worst plat-farming classes and one of the worst duo/trio classes. When I play my Paladin and do anything besides tank in a dungeon group I feel like a fish out of water. But when I am tanking for a dungeon group, I feel almost godlike. They're just extremely specialized.

[pharmakos]

i was going to say paladins do pretty well in duos, but then i realized the best classes they duo with are also the best solo classes, lol.

but yeah, paladin + enchanter and paladin + necromancer are tight! especially paladin + necromancer can easily tackle a lot of dungeon content that neither one would be able to manage on their own.

[Kennie]

I'm a paladin! Someone sell me a book of scale

[Swish]

If the Paladin has a tougher time keeping up in the above group, at least he can; the Shadow Knight can't do much of anything at all to save an Enchanter who's at 20% life because the Cleric was tabbed out reading Reddit instead of actually healing.

Darkness and fear, and the enchanter won't have aggro anyway if you're shadow vortexing while that mob was mezzed.

The Shadow Knight certainly can't provide any buffs when the group has to settle for a Druid healer instead of a Cleric, and has some difficulty with interrupting caster or healer opponents (it can, but snare/fear requires a lot of setup time and isn't always practical in some tight spaces).

SLN/Natureskin is no bad substitute, l2druid.

Take casters first unless the enchanter wants to ToT...if its that bad you just ask your monk/other melees to get on the same side. Casters have no HP, and as a rogue I've regularly pushed from the front and switched briefly to backstab when it pops.

Nor can the SK help out all that well with crowd control in groups that lack a mezzer

Wave of Enfeeblement, shadow vortex as a follow up...if the group doesn't have someone willing to root then you're in a bad group anyway.

or do much to reduce damage intake when the slower's too lazy to bother actually slowing anything and the healer's struggling for mana.

Chain lifetapping isn't a stun, but it can save a wipe.

The Shadow Knight maintains marginally higher popularity simply because it solos better and has (arguably) a slightly better raid role.

Ask yourself why that is.



next

[Danth]

Swish, I play both classes extensively. So do others in this thread. You don't. My Shadow Knight has been my main on P99 for the past four years or so. It's been level 60 for most of that. Yours never even made 60 at all. Some of what you're saying seems either mistaken or based on pride; you come across as an enthusiastic class partisan who "discovered" the SK. I'm glad for your fun, but don't let your enthusiasm cloud your rationality.

A) "SLN/Natureskin is no bad substitute, l2druid."

Eh? Most Paladin buff lines stack with Druid and Shaman buffs. Don't even try telling me the puller or Enchanter won't appreciate having hundreds extra hit points.

B) "Darkness and fear, and the enchanter won't have aggro anyway if you're shadow vortexing while that mob was mezzed."

Darkness and fear takes too long in that situation. 20% low HP aggro overrules all other aggro, and you know full well that bad things happen sometimes--unless you're going to claim that nobody has ever died in your groups, a claim that'll get you laughed at if you try to make it.

C) "if the group doesn't have someone willing to root then you're in a bad group anyway."

Well yes--that's the point. Do you only join optimal, perfectly balanced groups full of motivated players who never go AFK and always pay 100% attention? This is the real world, not theorycraftland. Some groups suck.

D) "Chain lifetapping isn't a stun, but it can save a wipe."

Rarely, yes, I've done so myself, but I'm not sure if you have a point there. I've saved a lot more wipes on my Paladin. The SK's much better at helping recover once wipes occur, though.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Saying the Paladin's the better group tank as a whole doesn't mean it's always better 100% of the time. Much of the time they're basically equal. There are even some situations where the Shadow Knight's the better choice. I have an easier time on my SK in really-fast-paced groups. It can serve double-duty as a feign puller when necessary (I was in such a group just last night). It tends to be favored in some camps due to snare.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Pharmakos--Paladin/Enchanter is a strong duo. I don't mention it simply because it's a little one-sided; the Enchanter would nearly always favor having a Cleric instead. Likewise the Necromancer will usually favor having someone else first as well. Conversely, Monk Shaman and Shadow Knight/Shaman are both strong duos and I know quite a few Shamans who prefer the latter.

Danth

[phacemeltar]

I main healed mistmore CE as 39 paladin for 2 hours the other day. group comp was 2x rangers, warrior, sk, enc. the sk refused to help heal. that is all.

[REMEZ]

PS3 is better than xbox
coke is better than pepsi
my dad is stronger than yours

[Arteker]

sks more desirable in raid scene than paladins ? uhm?.

1- excellent off tanking abilitys . snap agro make paladins excellent for these trash mobs u want tashed , maloed slowed asap without losing a enchanter or shaman. this is easy to accomplish with a paladin .

2- patch healing, a lvl 60 paladin can help patch heal either a a mt or group mates or a rampage tank .

3- buffer, paladin assist with buffs either divine strengh or if the situation is hard to help with naltron symbol.

4- emergency rez , 90s rez for battle rez if no enough cleric in a chain .

5- loh .
6- aoe popper u want a class to pull xx mob and pop the aoe? paladin can achieve this by using his 60 disc or da .
7- counter trainer , pull botch , lots of people with agro, drop a rune and group heal pop da and run with shit away . /consent random monk rogue

[pharmakos]

even just the 90% rez is a huge reason to play paladin. can't count the number of raids i've been to where the only rezzer that logged out during a wipe was a paladin. probably in total entire days of my life have been saved thanks to paladins that turned a 2 hour CR into a 15 minute rez and rebuff.

[Arteker]

Sorry I guess I missed the other reason Sk's are better. The only thing a SK can do better than a paladin is solo (very slowly) and split mobs that cant be pacified. Pally > SK for exp groups.

i soloed my paladin without twinking to lvl 60 .

paladin is a excellent soloers untill u hit 54 when the sk with snare fear can outperform in term of speed a paladin . wich will depend in root /heal rinse repeat .

paladins solo is very efective inside dungueons, specialy in old antonica , at lvl 30 specialy faster since u will begin to hunt and kill easy caster mobs . pacify line make pulling super easy(unless u a ugly dorf).
at 45 u got the dw helm for free heals reducing ur downtime even more .

[pharmakos]

i had a lot of luck soloing the necromancer spiders in kaesora through my high 30s / low 40s. keep cure disease / cure poison / cancel magic loaded, make sure your first few buff slots are open. root the spider and stay back -- cure all its DOTs until the thing is OOM (they have very little mana), and then go in close for an easy win.

and i always talk about root-jousting (with med-dancing!) on my paladin... i really need to make a tutorial video for it. you can take out yellow con melee mobs up until ike level 35 doing it.

[Stonewallx39]

Could you explain root jousting a little more?

[Nagash]

Could you explain root jousting a little more?

Say you have a weapon with delay 50 and no haste item, it means you hit every 5 seconds. In order to reduce the damage you rake, root a mob melee it and run and stay away as soon as you have hit it. Now run to the mob just to be in melee range with him at the 5 seconds mark so you can hit it and run again. Rince and repeat.

[Stonewallx39]

I was a bad paladin :-(

[pharmakos]

Say you have a weapon with delay 50 and no haste item, it means you hit every 5 seconds. In order to reduce the damage you rake, root a mob melee it and run and stay away as soon as you have hit it. Now run to the mob just to be in melee range with him at the 5 seconds mark so you can hit it and run again. Rince and repeat.

yup, pretty much this. if you're good you can also sit down for meditate ticks in between swings. that's why Tantor's Tusk is the ultimate root jousting weapon -- 60 delay! the perfect amount of time to be able to get meditate ticks between swings. (lots of shamans would probably be naturals at this skill ;) )

fights can take awhile, but thats not a big deal when you finish at 80% health and 80% mana :) if you find a good enough spot there is almost zero downtime. and unlike SK soloing, you can do this inside dungeons as long as you have a safe spot to pull to. hello loot and ZEM!

[Arteker]

yup, pretty much this. if you're good you can also sit down for meditate ticks in between swings. that's why Tantor's Tusk is the ultimate root jousting weapon -- 60 delay! the perfect amount of time to be able to get meditate ticks between swings. (lots of shamans would probably be naturals at this skill ;) )

fights can take awhile, but thats not a big deal when you finish at 80% health and 80% mana :) if you find a good enough spot there is almost zero downtime. and unlike SK soloing, you can do this inside dungeons as long as you have a safe spot to pull to. hello loot and ZEM!

this lad knows what hes talking

[Danth]

The downside of such jousting is the horrible tedium of it. I couldn't tolerate doing it myself beyond the rare occasions I wanted to kill some named. It's an option though.

Danth

[Morningbreath]

Simple answer for me: no invis. With a decent Velious weapon you're going to do more than sufficient damage as a paladin but travel is going to to be a headache.

[Swish]

Did anyone make a paladin as a result of this thread?

Also agreed on the invis, feels good clicking an item to insta-invis wherever I go on my SK, would miss that.

[Sashias]

Well, I was already a Paladin, but I'm more pumped up than ever after reading this :)

Loving every bit of the paladin. I know I won't play a major raid role, but everything else about this game is awesome as a pally!

[Jaleth]

Yeah and I really loved how the OP on this thread described the paladin awhile back.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108428

[Muggens]

I've started a Paladin not long ago and found this and the other thread mentioned right above me as very resourceful and encouraging. Hopefully Im gonna get some time to dwarf out soon - Meanwhile Im looking for an FBSS for this guy, have 4k, Hook a brotha up!

[Monty405]

Want to be one of the masses? Roll Ogre SK
Want to be special? Roll Paladin

[Durothil Skyreaver]

All of the hybrid classes suffer from the same problem; people who have not played a hybrid don't understand/see all the things that you do.

[Kennie]

Paladins are awesome, very underrated on this server.

[pharmakos]

The downside of such jousting is the horrible tedium of it. I couldn't tolerate doing it myself beyond the rare occasions I wanted to kill some named. It's an option though.

Danth

yeah most of my time levelling my red paladin like that was done with the aid of a lot of energy drinks. once you do it long enough you just get in the rhythm, tho, and can basically do it on autopilot.

[Swish]

Want to be one of the masses? Roll Ogre SK
Want to be special? Roll Paladin

My blue SK was a dark elf, but I think for red I'd definitely go ogre or troll...and dwarf for paladin if I was taking it seriously :p

[Issar]

My blue SK was a dark elf

Well duh! The only SK race that is blue is a dark elf...

I know, sorry joke. <exiting stage left>

[RDawg816]

Well duh! The only SK race that is blue is a dark elf...

I know, sorry joke. <exiting stage left>

Maybe his ogre SK was sad? :)

[Issar]

Maybe his ogre SK was sad? :)

Oh clever! I hadn't thought of that :D

[pharmakos]

or any race with a Guise ;)

[Swish]

Well duh! The only SK race that is blue is a dark elf...

I know, sorry joke. <exiting stage left>

lol...ugh

http://www.animgif-futtatas-pelda.eoldal.hu/img/picture/2/facepalm-anim.gif

[Kelor]

Did anyone make a paladin as a result of this thread?

Also agreed on the invis, feels good clicking an item to insta-invis wherever I go on my SK, would miss that.

Yup got bored at lvl 10.

[Varren]

I rolled another one. HE this time with a soul patch

[k2summit]

I believe shadow knights had something similar, Evilgamerz or something like that

http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/

This is basically the http://crucible.samanna.net/index.php for SK's

[phacemeltar]

my human paladin has 143 charisma with CHA buff

[demokatt]

Does that get you laid?

[Dulu]

SK's and Paladins shine on red.

Very strong PvP classes.

[Xaanka]

Simple answer for me: no invis. With a decent Velious weapon you're going to do more than sufficient damage as a paladin but travel is going to to be a headache.

ring of shadows (blue) or invis pots (red)??

[elwing]

Because palies can't worship Bertoxxulous of course, what else?

[phacemeltar]

question: why no palies?

answer: because they're called paladins


get it right

[Fame]

Is the Tunare only sword in the game yet? Forgot the name, Nature's Scimitar or something like that

[Danth]

Nature's Defender should be in-game. I haven't seen anyone using it yet, though, partly because Tunare-following Paladins are a minority of an already rare class, and partly because so many Paladins tend to get their standard epic, anyway.

Danth

[Nixtar]

Did anyone make a paladin as a result of this thread?

Also agreed on the invis, feels good clicking an item to insta-invis wherever I go on my SK, would miss that.

Lack of invis can be fixed with items and pots. Hard to deny how awesome the CoS is though.

This thread, and the epic defence of paladin thread, got be returning to my paladin awhile back.

I think the reason many paladins stop playing is due to the class not getting a complete toolset till lvl30. That said, Root aggro + FoL works decently till you get your stun. Healing on inc works too. But yeah, before lvl30 it sometimes felt like something was missing.

After lvl30 though. I am having a lot of fun. This spell enhances almost every spell you have. Stun + heal/root/FoL. Saved so many enchanters like this. For backup, when things go to hell, I have my "OH SHIT!"-button in the form of Lay Hands. FoL is also a beautiful tool for ensuring the mob attacks me before breaking mezz. Lay Hands, on its own, can save a group(or even raid) from falling apart. I cannot say the same for harm touch.

Then there's the heals, of which use is kinda obvious, but your heals are not pitiful like a ranger. They're actually worth casting to keep people alive in an engagement, i.e. not an futile excercise which only prolong(and not for long) the inevitable.

That said, I'm not going to claim paladins are superior to SKs. Both SK/PAL are exceptional at maintaining aggro and a real asset to any exp group. The rarity of paladins can probably be attributed to the issues up till lvl20-30 + the hybrid pen in the past which I can see being enough to discourage people to even get past lvl20, indeed, even creating one to begin with.

However, now that I've gone beyond lvl30. I've reached the point where I'm not even on any alts anymore.

[elwing]

I think the reason many paladins stop playing is due to the class not getting a complete toolset till lvl30.

sorry, but SK are in the same state, we only get FD, invis, pbae spell and our first real dot at 30

[Nixtar]

sorry, but SK are in the same state, we only get FD, invis, pbae spell and our first real dot at 30

The point I'm making is that not having a ranged aggro spell vs having one makes a difference. Compound that with essentially being a lvl9 paladin with a lot of HP/mana untill you ding lvl30 and the drop-off rate starts to make sense.

[Kevynne]

everyone left out that the best tank races (Ogre, Troll, Barb, and to some extent Iksar) can't be paladins. the best option statwise for paladins is dwarf, and even then it's kinda moot.
paladin great class but has shitty combinations (HIE PAL, ERU PAL, HUM PAL, HEF PAL)
the only truly viable pally option is dwarf pally.

As a side note, fuck fighting a Paladin on Red. Exercise in futility.

its even worse when they get velious geared. at the point paladins unkillable.
also twinked paladins <SEE ANTIMATTER> are fuckin terrifying

[Xaanka]

everyone left out that the best tank races (Ogre, Troll, Barb, and to some extent Iksar) can't be paladins. the best option statwise for paladins is dwarf, and even then it's kinda moot.
paladin great class but has shitty combinations (HIE PAL, ERU PAL, HUM PAL, HEF PAL)
the only truly viable pally option is dwarf pally.


its even worse when they get velious geared. at the point paladins unkillable.
also twinked paladins <SEE ANTIMATTER> are fuckin terrifying

race doesn't matter for any class except like necros and shamans tho. get a primal and all your melee stats are maxed, only ones that matter are sta/wis.

[Pyrion]

"get a primal" is only for the the most hard core of the hard cores, so i hope this was meant as a joke. Still i kinda agree with you, you can live with non maximized stats, so while some races are easier, all can be made good.

[Xaanka]

for a casual player high elf tunare is the best paladin. wis is good, and natures defender is a lot easier to get than epic.


but ya starting stat min/maxing shouldn't make any difference on a Paladin unless you're the most hardcore of poopsock raider, in which case its a given you have a primal weapon. thats sorta the point i was trying to make.

[Chaboo_Cleric]

Highelf Paladins are the best. The base Cha you receive is so good when it comes to lulls. Fact is without cha you will get crit resist. So the first gear you want to obtain is a Kobold Crown for swap out when lulling. Every other Palidan race can't lull worth shit making the entire line useless. It may not sound like a big deal , but when you can single pull mobs all day it helps a ton.

[Chaboo_Cleric]

Nature's Defender should be in-game. I haven't seen anyone using it yet, though, partly because Tunare-following Paladins are a minority of an already rare class, and partly because so many Paladins tend to get their standard epic, anyway.

Danth

I got one on red. Best for fashion quest as I got Ntov weapons now.

[Vexenu]

Highelf Paladins are the best. The base Cha you receive is so good when it comes to lulls. Fact is without cha you will get crit resist. So the first gear you want to obtain is a Kobold Crown for swap out when lulling. Every other Palidan race can't lull worth shit making the entire line useless. It may not sound like a big deal , but when you can single pull mobs all day it helps a ton.

The extra CHA certainly doesn't hurt but mob level is much, much more important when it comes to crit lull resists. My Dwarf Paladin rarely had lull resists when leveling (mostly on dark blue con mobs). That being said...CHA buffs and a few pieces of CHA gear are must haves when lulling tough spots. The High Elf definitely has an advantage in those rare situations, but the lower STR and STA matters all the time. Human and Dwarf are much better racial choices overall.

[Nixtar]

The race you pick for your paladin is completely irrelevant. Min-maxer or not.

The only question worth asking, do I want the Natures Defender or not? Then ask, do I enjoy the look/starter area of HE or half-elf. That's the race you should pick. If no to both, roll whatever you please. Erudite does have their hipster status and some race specific items.

Dwarf is a good choice if your're new though but if you have plat to spend, yeah, doesn't matter at all.

[Xaanka]

should be pointed out the high WIS races like HIE have a pretty solid advantage in group PVP situations, for any aspiring red pallies. hard to cap it even with endgame gear, and heals/cures are pretty much your most important tool (honorable mention to CH sword)

[Sage Truthbearer]

Nature's Defender looks cool but I almost never use mine. Reason being I always have a better weapon option for a given situation than ND, whether I'm tanking or just want my best DPS weapon.

[Beastagoog]

Warrior = best raid tank
SK = best trash tank
Paladin = low dps tank who doesn't raid tank or trash tank so effectively.

Sks are thr selfish tank, paladins are the giving tank.

Def would rather a paladin tank over sk soley on thr basis that in a pinch a paladin can save thr group vrs just FDing to avoid dying.

[pharmakos]

been in so many raids where we wiped and the only person to camp out was a high level paladin. they 90% rez the first few epic clerics they see, and bam raid is back up.

[Jimjam]

been in so many raids where we wiped and the only person to camp out was a high level paladin. they 90% rez the first few epic clerics they see, and bam raid is back up.

So the raid pally's role is to realise they may as well have not even bothered logging in, get to the character select screen only to change their mind, log back in and save the day?

[falkun]

No, they need to Divine Strength everyone before the pull, then log out and watch the raid from character select.

[Nixtar]

So the raid pally's role is to realise they may as well have not even bothered logging in, get to the character select screen only to change their mind, log back in and save the day?

Yes, because the paladin did nothing before that or are all your clerics logged out during raids? Sounds like a weird way to play but ok.

[Naethyn]

Paladins are terrible dps, but Divine Shield should not be underestimated on raids. Often during raids there is a gap in healing on the Warrior. Paladins save the day with Lay on Hands. LoH also works while silenced which can be huge. For any trash mobs such as Halls of Testing I prefer a Paladin tank for 80% of the mobs.

[Kevynne]

race doesn't matter for any class except like necros and shamans tho. get a primal and all your melee stats are maxed, only ones that matter are sta/wis.

idk m8 my erudite necro in rags has more mana then my geared HIE wizard by about 300 and being 17 levels lower.

[jolanar]

idk m8 my erudite necro in rags has more mana then my geared HIE wizard by about 300 and being 17 levels lower.

Unless you start a fight at full mana and need 100% of your mana for that fight, it doesn't really accomplish anything having 300 extra mana.

[Nixtar]

Unless you start a fight at full mana and need 100% of your mana for that fight, it doesn't really accomplish anything having 300 extra mana.

Well, for a Paladin it would. Same as with a cleric, having mana for one more heal/root/stun or are ress can save the group/raid from a wipe(or a lot of time). In a perfect world it might not matter much in reality things doesn't always go as planned.

And it doesn't matter how much mana you start out with, he would always have 300 more mana in any given situation. Even when OOM he'd spent 300 more mana.

Compared to a SK, for instance, who only really need to concern himself with having mana for disease cloud/shroud a Paladin has a lot more tools to add to his or her party(which when employed intensely would definitely be consumed faster than any mana reg would negate bar having a necro dedicated to feeding you).

Point is, yes, mana is important for a Paladin. I'd say, as a hybrid we're closer to the cleric side rather than the warrior whereas SKs are closer to the warrior than they are the necromancer.

[Xaanka]

Unless you start a fight at full mana and need 100% of your mana for that fight, it doesn't really accomplish anything having 300 extra mana.

yeah maybe on blue but [[cringe]] if you're playing a paladin on there

[Xaanka]

300 mana is 4 more casts of divine strength before you sit down and make all the important people wait

[slippyfist]

I created a pally (blue) as my first character and I'm now level 17. I've not had a problem (yet) tanking for the most part, but I've really only scratched the surface. I would like to raid at end game because I never got the chance back in 2000. This thread has made me second-guess my choice, but I'm not going to throw in the towel yet.

I've raided on live with rogue, sham, cleric, and war(as trash tank) as well as played wiz, mag, enc and druid to near-max levels, so I'm comfortable with almost any role. My question is this: if you were in my shoes, would you re-roll to be more desirable in raids? Keep in mind I'm not that invested, nor have I had a problem playing any of the aforementioned classes, so it's not a huge deal for me to start a new char. Appreciate any feedback or suggestions.