Bernie Sanders at his best

[ronasch]

http://m.motherjones.com/files/Man_and_Woman_0.jpg

[iruinedyourday]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LATqcoGOsxE

[ronasch]

Good thing I'm not a republican. I'm a Libertarian Secessionist.

[iruinedyourday]

That's like saying I'm not a democrat, I'm registered in the green party. :P

or how about that im a democratic socialist, not a democrat.

https://media.giphy.com/media/lXiRD6COxDO7BOKTm/giphy.gif

[Pokesan]

Good thing I'm not a republican. I'm a Libertarian Secessionist.

please secede from the forums you loon

[ronasch]

That's like saying I'm not a democrat, I'm registered in the green party. :P

or how about that im a democratic socialist, not a democrat.

https://media.giphy.com/media/lXiRD6COxDO7BOKTm/giphy.gif

Obviously you have no idea what libertarian means then.

[iruinedyourday]

Obviously you have no idea what libertarian means then.

considering you think socialism is the same as a Marxist Communism dictatorship.. I would wager you dont really have any idea what being libertarian means.

[ronasch]

1 thing is true, Bernie has definitely won the vote of Virgins living in their mother's basement.

[iruinedyourday]

While TRUMP won the vote from people who lost their virginity to their sister.

[ronasch]

considering you think socialism is the same as a Marxist Communism dictatorship.. I would wager you dont really have any idea what being libertarian means.

I'm sorry, I tend to lump them all together since they all end up the same way, enslavement and genocide.

Wonder how well these European utopian countries would do if they didn't have the U.S. Military protecting them. Guess they don't have the money for that

[ronasch]

While TRUMP won the vote from people who lost their virginity to their sister.

Who's voting for Trump? I certainly am not.

[iruinedyourday]

hehe I just was trying to pick ONE opponent..considering there doesn't seem to be any at all on the other side of the race. Believe me I didnt want to give trump any credibility, but I couldnt think of a single person who will run on the non democratic ticket. yikes!

Maybe you WILL see a libertarian nomination from the right.

I mean, is this really a race between Bernie Sanders Vs Hillary Clinton?

I hope so :)

[Lune]

Good thing I'm not a republican. I'm a Libertarian Secessionist.

Ah yes, soon you will be able to break the tyrannical yoke of big gubments oppression and create a true promised land without the evil Fed getting its greedy paws between you and your neighbor

http://i.imgur.com/0MGDSsz.png

[Patriam1066]

Ah yes, soon you will be able to break the tyrannical yoke of big gubments oppression and create a true promised land without the evil Fed getting its greedy paws between you and your neighbor

http://i.imgur.com/0MGDSsz.png

You establish the importance of culture in other posts, and in this one completely dismiss the cultural difference between north European Protestant America and African Muslim Somalia.

No, in the absence of the federal government, we do not become Somalia. We'd quicklj form smaller, more accountable nation states that would probably all be parliamentary democracies like Canada, Ireland, Denmark, etc...

Libertarians aren't all anarchists. We're just skeptics who don't think our government has very much chance of being fixed without something transformative.

[quido]

I got a boner from it - not sure what the problem is

[iruinedyourday]

You establish the importance of culture in other posts, and in this one completely dismiss the cultural difference between north European Protestant America and African Muslim Somalia.

No, in the absence of the federal government, we do not become Somalia. We'd quicklj form smaller, more accountable nation states that would probably all be parliamentary democracies like Canada, Ireland, Denmark, etc...

Libertarians aren't all anarchists. We're just skeptics who don't think our government has very much chance of being fixed without something transformative.

How does bernie stand with you as a libertarian voter I'm curious, Patrim?

[Patriam1066]

There are three candidates I'm voting against no matter what. Those are Jeb bush, Hillary Clinton, and Ted Cruz.

I'm far less inspired by who to vote for, but Bernie is one of the people who might get my vote. I'm adamantly against his budget.... But at this point it doesn't even matter. There aren't any fiscal conservatives so he's still in the consideration. I'm 100% opposed to money in politics. It's as corrupting as mosque / state are in Iran. At least he's addressing that...
But yeah, I'm pretty apathetic / skeptical and resigned to Hillary as president

PS: I'm strongly opposed to the surveillance state but again, no one is going to actually do anything about it so it's useless IMO

[Lune]

You establish the importance of culture in other posts, and in this one completely dismiss the cultural difference between north European Protestant America and African Muslim Somalia.

No, in the absence of the federal government, we do not become Somalia. We'd quicklj form smaller, more accountable nation states that would probably all be parliamentary democracies like Canada, Ireland, Denmark, etc...

Libertarians aren't all anarchists. We're just skeptics who don't think our government has very much chance of being fixed without something transformative.

Quit calling me on my doublethink. I'm not going to let the analogy being dogshit deprive me of the pleasure of calling libertarians Somalians.

As much as I think Americans are theoretically capable of building a decent libertarian society, and it would probably maybe work just fine, I just see it as a step backward. I believe we need a strong, authoritative government to counter the destructive, bacterial impulses of humanity and nature.

The crux of the issue for me is the following thought experiment:

Maintaining the population of humanity at around 100 million would solve nearly every major global problem and enrich the lives of everyone.

This would be completely impossible under a libertarian system. In spite of the benefits to efficiency, libertarianism provides no capacity to exercise collective long-term planning for the benefit of the group. Statist systems do allow this, therefore I view libertarianism unfavorably. However, I believe libertarianism/free market economics was the superior system at guiding humanity through industrialization and basic development.

There's also the fact that American libertarianism tends to get wrapped up with Ayn Rand and she is basically the devil.

[iruinedyourday]

There are three candidates I'm voting against no matter what. Those are Jeb bush, Hillary Clinton, and Ted Cruz.

I'm far less inspired by who to vote for, but Bernie is one of the people who might get my vote. I'm adamantly against his budget.... But at this point it doesn't even matter. There aren't any fiscal conservatives so he's still in the consideration. I'm 100% opposed to money in politics. It's as corrupting as mosque / state are in Iran. At least he's addressing that...
But yeah, I'm pretty apathetic / skeptical and resigned to Hillary as president

PS: I'm strongly opposed to the surveillance state but again, no one is going to actually do anything about it so it's useless IMO

https://i.imgur.com/zGHNzyG.jpg

well hopefully we can keep getting the word out that hes a bit more non partisan than you could imagine, and a lot more than Hillary is & at this rate it might be unavoidable that he gets the nom!

I think everyone in the usa would be pretty bummed with life if Hillary wins heh

[Big_Japan]

"Slavishness on one hand breeds pigness on the other hand."

Reads like a Scientologist wrote it.

Compare that with the Hemingway-style plain, minimalist speaking of "you have to go back" or "somebody's doing the raping" or even "you're fired". Where instead of the sentence saying less than the sum of its component words, leaving you scratching your head and waiting with a blank, bovine expression for your dialectic instructor to enlighten you about white privilege and why we need to appoint Jews to redistribute our resources, the few words in fact imply much more than what they initially appear to.

http://i58.tinypic.com/noebll.jpg

[Ranndom]

"A man goes home and masturbates his typical fantasy. A woman on her knees, a woman tied up, a woman abused."A woman enjoys intercourse with her man — as she fantasizes being raped by 3 men simultaneously."The man and woman get dressed up on Sunday — and go to Church, or maybe to their 'revolutionary' political meeting."
- An essay by Bernie Sanders, criticisms of Gender Roles in the 1970s.
I think Bernie hit his prime in the 70's /chuckle

[Ranndom]

https://i.imgur.com/zGHNzyG.jpg

well hopefully we can keep getting the word out that hes a bit more non partisan than you could imagine, and a lot more than Hillary is & at this rate it might be unavoidable that he gets the nom!

I think everyone in the usa would be pretty bummed with life if Hillary wins heh

Obama started a race war addiction.
Can only imagine Hillary would bring upon a War of the Sexes

[ronasch]

Just wondering did any of you read Bernie's "Rape Fantasy" essay or does that fall under the umbrella of we don't care about rape if a democrat does it?

[sOurDieSel]

Just wondering did any of you read Bernie's "Rape Fantasy" essay or does that fall under the umbrella of we don't care about rape if a democrat does it?

Oy Vey!

Don't you dare poke holes in the liberal narrative, what are you an evil racist nazi who wants to kill 6 million jews?

[Era'viss]

Just wondering did any of you read Bernie's "Rape Fantasy" essay or does that fall under the umbrella of we don't care about rape if a democrat does it?

I'd say this is under the category of IDGAF. Same category I keep my opinion about George Bush Jr. doing blow, Clinton getting a BJ, Rush Limbaugh's divorces, and Obama smoking pot.

[Thana8088]

Just wondering did any of you read Bernie's "Rape Fantasy" essay or does that fall under the umbrella of we don't care about rape if a democrat does it?

You do recognize the difference between a rape fantasy and rape, right?

Right?!

[sOurDieSel]

Bernie Sanders confirmed a in the closet rapist

[iruinedyourday]

There are 3 everquesters that are really rustled about sanders and they are also conspiracy theroist spammers.

Yikes

[Era'viss]

Not that anyone cares, but I don't mind Sanders to much except for him wanting to raise the minimum wage.

I get how it's pretty lame that huge companies (Wal-Mart, Home Depot, most fast food places, etc.) enjoying paying the bare minimum, so there's this astronomical difference between the pay of the majority of their employees and the executives at the top. But raising the minimum wage is a pretty broad approach to the issue that can cause more harm than good in my eyes.

I have a buddy named Dan. He had a dream of owning and operating his own coffee roastery. Dude loves coffee as much as I love sex, so more power to him. He's been in business for the better half of a decade now, and I've seen his family deal with some tough financial situation. They're getting to be more stable now after having to sell their house, and do other rearrangements with their lifestyle and things are looking better year after year. Raising the minimum wage would be a complete disaster for his company. It would make him reduce his staff so his overhead doesn't blow him out of business. It's almost like a raise in the "minimum wage" is a direct reduction to his "minimum wage."

I'm no economic genius by any means, but I just don't agree with how a broad approach to the wage gap such as raising the minimum wage will help people especially in the long term. If anything it will make people who want to own a small business have a rougher time than ever before, and more large companies that can absorb that larger overhead will still reign supreme in the job market.

But with that said there's no fucking way I'd ever vote for Trump, and if it ends up between Trump and Sanders I'm going with Sanders.

[quido]

Just because you want to run a business doesn't mean you should necessarily be successful in it. Business is competitive.

[Era'viss]

Just because you want to run a business doesn't mean you should necessarily be successful in it. Business is competitive.

Totally agree, but I think you're missing the point of what I was trying to say. That or I sucked at explaining why I don't like raises in the minimum wage. I get what the goal is supposed to be, but it creates a pretty large barrier to entry for new small companies. Especially small companies that require other large investments upfront.

Maybe I shouldn't have tried to use an anecdote... :o

[Ranndom]

There are 3 everquesters that are really rustled about sanders and they are also conspiracy theroist spammers.

Yikes

Were just the vocalized ones. At least 60% of the people i meet in game agree with me on quite a few things.
And do you know why were rustled about sanders? The same reason at least I was rustled about Obama when he first came about. theyre liars, thieves, and obama at the very least is genocidal. They speak and their tongue turns black.

[quido]

The cost of a few more failed businesses is worth it when we consider the gains made by requiring companies to give people decent wages.

[Era'viss]

Were just the vocalized ones. At least 60% of the people i meet in game agree with me on quite a few things.

Bird of a feather all flock together.

theyre liars, thieves, and obama at the very least is genocidal. They speak and their tongue turns black.

Welcome to politics... but can you explain this genocide accusation? Are you thinking he's "DECLARED WAR ON [Insert Label]," and you're hyperbolizing a situation just like a news headline?

[quido]

I thought conservopublicans were in favor of murdering people when it's good for business?

[Ranndom]

Bird of a feather all flock together.


Not really. Just because we agree doesnt mean we like each other or how were gonna get there

[Patriam1066]

Minimum wage increases....

Don't work. It really is that simple. Businesses will just automate jobs or fire people. I get that you don't mind businesses failing, but the goal was to raise wages. If the successful ones automate and the losing enterprises fail entirely, who exactly had a wage increase?

The corporations are the enemy gentlemen. Not the mom and pop shop on your corner employing 15 year olds as cashiers and stock boys ....

Jesus Christ let Bernie sanders talk, you're starting to sound like Hugo Chavez

[Ranndom]

Minimum wage increases....

Don't work. It really is that simple. Businesses will just automate jobs or fire people. I get that you don't mind businesses failing, but the goal was to raise wages. If the successful ones automate and the losing enterprises fail entirely, who exactly had a wage increase?

The corporations are the enemy gentlemen. Not the mom and pop shop on your corner employing 15 year olds as cashiers and stock boys ....

Jesus Christ let Bernie sanders talk, you're starting to sound like Hugo Chavez

Seattle tried 15 minimum. People in mass began begging for less hours or simply stopped working because they were making too much to recieve welfare payments.
Walmart tried bumping minimum, They cut hours en mass, forced people to take hour lunches, and who knows what else.
So yea, its not the wage its the dollar....And the people.
However, Walmart is what someone like bernie becomes with power. Socialism is a baad answer

[Era'viss]

The cost of a few more failed businesses is worth it when we consider the gains made by requiring companies to give people decent wages.

This feels as callous as a top executive rationalizing why his employees should be paid $15,080 a year at full time 40 hours a week.

I'll go out on a loose branch to say what I think would be a more ideal solution. Have the government redistribute the wealth to help level annual earnings. Large companies still paying about $15k a year for someone? Have that individual get another check from the fed helping them reach the median income for their area.

I'd also like to see people give more of a fuck about each other. That's something that no politician can really do, but it sucks how hateful people can be towards each other. Especially to the poor and downtrodden. To me this is more of the root of our problem, and we need to own up to it. I'm a Christian, and there's no way I can associate myself with the Republican party because of how awful they depict and treat the poor.

Biggest offense to me lately was when Mexico had all those unaccompanied minor flow into the U.S. You would have thought they weren't even human with how the Republican's were depicting those people. I thought it was an awesome opportunity the U.S. had to be a good guy and help some kids out, but noooo way. There's been other bullshit that they've done since then, but damn that was a black-eye for the Republican party in my eyes. :(

[Aviann]

All of you should listen to Jeremy.

[iruinedyourday]

We had a min wage increase. The only business that closed were ones that sucked anyway.

now there is a comic book shop in place of a failed furniture store owned by an ahole.

profit!

[Era'viss]

All of you should listen to Jeremy.

Listening to an interview with this guy from about a month ago... if it is the correct Jeremy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYvFWCzMTeY

Like what I'm hearing, but he has this shaky feeling. At times it sounds like he's running for President on a dare.

[Thana8088]

Pretty sure he means this Jeremy.

Just because you want to run a business doesn't mean you should necessarily be successful in it. Business is competitive.


__________________
Bush <Empire>
Jeremy <TMO> - Retarred
Red99 Leaderboard: http://www.r99pvp.net

But I've been wrong before.



Once.

[Lune]

Minimum wage increases....

Don't work. It really is that simple. Businesses will just automate jobs or fire people. I get that you don't mind businesses failing, but the goal was to raise wages. If the successful ones automate and the losing enterprises fail entirely, who exactly had a wage increase?

The corporations are the enemy gentlemen. Not the mom and pop shop on your corner employing 15 year olds as cashiers and stock boys ....

Jesus Christ let Bernie sanders talk, you're starting to sound like Hugo Chavez

Oh shit, you actually listen to their jobs rhetoric.

Meanwhile, CostCo pays all their employees a living wage and they absolutely decimate Wal-Mart and run an extremely profitable enterprise. And entire fucking countries pay the vast majority of their citizens a living wage, far more than in the United States, and business is booming.

I mean, think about who exactly stands to benefit from telling you the world will end if wages increase? Is it the same people who will shutter an entire store if they hear talk about unions? If your business model relies on paying people in lint and pennies, your business should not exist. You're right that corporations are the enemy, and this behavior is largely corporate-centric, but don't summarily dismiss the entire minimum wage model as not working. It's just not true.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

The cost of a few more failed businesses is worth it when we consider the gains made by requiring companies to give people decent wages.

Those wages are worthless because the goods you have to buy with those wages will go up because cost (labor) went up. Minimum wage raising is purely political.

[Patriam1066]

Oh shit, you actually listen to their jobs rhetoric.

Meanwhile, CostCo pays all their employees a living wage and they absolutely decimate Wal-Mart and run an extremely profitable enterprise. And entire fucking countries pay the vast majority of their citizens a living wage, far more than in the United States, and business is booming.

I mean, think about who exactly stands to benefit from telling you the world will end if wages increase? Is it the same people who will shutter an entire store if they hear talk about unions? If your business model relies on paying people in lint and pennies, your business should not exist. You're right that corporations are the enemy, and this behavior is largely corporate-centric, but don't summarily dismiss the entire minimum wage model as not working. It's just not true.

The people who groom my dog are an elderly couple. They run a small POS establishment, but they are good at what they do and nice as fuck. They have a crew of high school kids that play with all of the dogs in the back.

Do you think CostCo has the same overhead as Groomies? One size fit all doesn't work. If it does, why don't we just raise the federal minimum wage to $100 an hour. The numbers obviously don't matter. In addition, let's just ignore that Texas has a GDP per capita that is less than California or Maryland. Let's just let the federal government, made up of clearly competent people like Nancy Pelosi and Ted Cruz, step on the states and municipalities and manage microeconomics.

Walmart and CostCo can be forced into a minimum wage. The vast majority of businesses are small and will actually be hurt by these policies. If you want to help Wall Street to the detriment of Main Street, it's a great policy.

The mandated minimum income is a much better idea. Era'viss I think mentioned it. If y'all feel so compelled to guarantee people a minimum standard of living, then do it on the backs of banks and massive multinationals that don't really help the average American. I really don't see how fucking over the people who groom my dog and pay the high school kids who work there for $7.25 an hour accomplishes anything. Most of the kids out here are wealthy anyway. They want the job for spending money and it looks like the easiest thing in the world.

Oh. And finally, if you raise the minimum wage massively, you're going to see increased automation. I know you're smart enough to see that. Hell, no matter what the minimum wage is in the future, that will continue to happen. The minimum income replacing welfare / food stamps is better for this as well.

[Rararboker]

Makes me think of what happened in San Diego when obamacare went into affect. Companies all started giving minimum wage employees shorter hours so they wouldn't qualify for the "free health care".

Govt shouldn't be involved in this stuff imo. They fuck it up.

[iruinedyourday]

Makes me think of what happened in San Diego when obamacare went into affect. Companies all started giving minimum wage employees shorter hours so they wouldn't qualify for the "free health care".

Govt shouldn't be involved in this stuff imo. They fuck it up.

Id prefer government fucking stuff up some of the time, than corporations fucking me over all of the time.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

Id prefer government fucking stuff up some of the time, than corporations fucking me over all of the time.

Corporations really fuck you over. Why don't you go through your home and throw away everything that a corporation had a hand in producing.

Because you'd have nothing left.

Kids.

[Lune]

Makes me think of what happened in San Diego when obamacare went into affect. Companies all started giving minimum wage employees shorter hours so they wouldn't qualify for the "free health care".

Govt shouldn't be involved in this stuff imo. They fuck it up.

If "government" were involved in reforming healthcare, we wouldn't have gotten the abomination that is Obamacare. The reform was created by insurance companies and other entities who have a stake in the broken state of healthcare. The politicians, who are bought and paid for by the corporations and their lobbyists, were just an intermediary. And of course people like you blame the "government". We should just let the corporations handle it, am I right? Because that's been working so well for us so far.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

If "government" were involved in reforming healthcare, we wouldn't have gotten the abomination that is Obamacare. The reform was created by insurance companies and other entities who have a stake in the broken state of healthcare. The politicians, who are bought and paid for by the corporations and their lobbyists, were just an intermediary. And of course people like you blame the "government". We should just let the corporations handle it, am I right? Because that's been working so well for us so far.

Corporations haven't been handling it all. The Government has its hand in everything.

[Lune]

The people who groom my dog are an elderly couple. They run a small POS establishment, but they are good at what they do and nice as fuck. They have a crew of high school kids that play with all of the dogs in the back.

Do you think CostCo has the same overhead as Groomies? One size fit all doesn't work. If it does, why don't we just raise the federal minimum wage to $100 an hour. The numbers obviously don't matter. In addition, let's just ignore that Texas has a GDP per capita that is less than California or Maryland. Let's just let the federal government, made up of clearly competent people like Nancy Pelosi and Ted Cruz, step on the states and municipalities and manage microeconomics.

Walmart and CostCo can be forced into a minimum wage. The vast majority of businesses are small and will actually be hurt by these policies. If you want to help Wall Street to the detriment of Main Street, it's a great policy.

The mandated minimum income is a much better idea. Era'viss I think mentioned it. If y'all feel so compelled to guarantee people a minimum standard of living, then do it on the backs of banks and massive multinationals that don't really help the average American. I really don't see how fucking over the people who groom my dog and pay the high school kids who work there for $7.25 an hour accomplishes anything. Most of the kids out here are wealthy anyway. They want the job for spending money and it looks like the easiest thing in the world.

Oh. And finally, if you raise the minimum wage massively, you're going to see increased automation. I know you're smart enough to see that. Hell, no matter what the minimum wage is in the future, that will continue to happen. The minimum income replacing welfare / food stamps is better for this as well.

I took issue with your broad contention that "minimum wage increases don't work", and you reasoning you provided, that it just results in firings. That is a falsehood. I didn't say a blanket federally mandated minimum wage is the answer, I think the solution needs to be more complex than that, and basic income is one idea.

Again, if your business model relies on the exploitation of labor, your business should not exist in the form it does. Paying high school kids spending money is one thing, and that's clearly not what I'm talking about, and there are good ways to differentiate between that and actual subsistence labor in terms of regulations. For every elderly white dog groomer out there paying some good old wholesome white boys $7.25 an hour to play with dogs, there's a motel paying some middle aged Mexican $7.25 an hour to clean up sploogy bedding, or a Starbucks paying a struggling 20-something $7.25 an hour to make coffee. You could make the same argument for all those examples. "b-b-b-b-but I need to exploit cheap labor to get by." No, you don't.

[Lune]

Corporations haven't been handling it all. The Government has its hand in everything.

The government answers to the corporations. Where have you been the last 20 years?

[iruinedyourday]

Corporations really fuck you over. Why don't you go through your home and throw away everything that a corporation had a hand in producing.

Because you'd have nothing left.

Kids.

you must be fucking retarded.

OK ILL JUST LIVE LIKE A FUCKING AMISH PERSON

jesus if you love Comcast so much, why dont you go fuck yourself.

Also I love how yuo think me saying corporations will fuck you over means that I think the government should make iphones and TV's and playstations. Jesus fucking Christ, Its amazing how stupid people can be.

[Orruar]

The government answers to the corporations. Where have you been the last 20 years?

So the government are just poor victims in this fantasy land, completely devoid of any of the responsibility for the situation?

[iruinedyourday]

So the government are just poor victims in this fantasy land, completely devoid of any of the responsibility for the situation?

no the republican elected goverment leaders are corrupt and accept bribes and pass legislation that helps the corperations by slashing laws that were created to protect us from large buisness.

if you live in america but somehow LOVE monopolies than you are part of the problem.

That fucking board game warped the minds of all my generation I guess.

[Lune]

So the government are just poor victims in this fantasy land, completely devoid of any of the responsibility for the situation?

Nope, the ultimate responsibility lies with the electorate for failing to remain informed and exercise enough critical thinking to pick representatives that represent their interests.

He blamed the government for Obamacare. Yes, technically, the government created the law. The government is complicit. But corruption and corporate lobbying were ultimately responsible for making it the way it was. People wanted healthcare reform, and what they got was something that looked like meaningful reform on the surface, but was actually just another way for the elite to loot the country. So when you say Obamacare is terrible because the government is awful and governments in general suck at everything they do, I don't think you're capturing the reality of the situation.

If we enacted a single-payer system and cut the insurance companies out, and it was still a boondoggle, then I'd be more open to blaming the government itself for being incompetent.

[Pringles]

or how about that im a democratic socialist, not a democrat.


Isnt that exactly what bernie sanders called himself in the last debate?

That was right before he said global warming was the biggest threat to national security.

[iruinedyourday]

Isnt that exactly what bernie sanders called himself in the last debate?

That was right before he said global warming was the biggest threat to national security.

https://youtu.be/DNb4VKln1uw?t=4

[B4EQWASCOOL]

no the republican elected goverment leaders are corrupt and accept bribes and pass legislation that helps the corperations by slashing laws that were created to protect us from large buisness.

if you live in america but somehow LOVE monopolies than you are part of the problem.

That fucking board game warped the minds of all my generation I guess.

The Government creates and maintains monopolies.

[Ranndom]

The government answers to the corporations. Where have you been the last 20 years?

The government is the corporation. The corporations are the shareholders.

[Era'viss]

It be nice if we all just took a step back and try to understand that "government" and "corporation" are really different sectors of our society/economy.

People are at the heart of both. It's individuals who can be criminals and cause dramatic dysfunction. It's also individuals that can work to correct the problem within both.

To make broad statements about, "how corporations are ruining this," or, "how government is destroying that," only seem to serve the purpose of putting a mask over the perpetrators of nefarious activities.

I'm a sucker though. I believe that both corporations and government can both be great together. The land where this happens should also be called America.

[Era'viss]

The land where this happens should also be called America.

Sorry to double post, but this is my way of giving the finger to Swish and his compatriots.

JK Swish, come back home where you belong. Our forums miss you.

[Big_Japan]

hey guys I think you found your way into the wrong thread, there is a thread about the 2016 presidential race located here (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205549). You should probably direct discussion to this thread for continuity's sake.

ty!

http://i57.tinypic.com/nxqt00.png

[iruinedyourday]

http://media.giphy.com/media/9nPKbPsH86jSM/giphy.gif

[iruinedyourday]

going to dance off

http://media.giphy.com/media/9nPKbPsH86jSM/giphy.gif

[iruinedyourday]

dance right off

http://media.giphy.com/media/9nPKbPsH86jSM/giphy.gif

[iruinedyourday]

this mo fukn

http://media.giphy.com/media/9nPKbPsH86jSM/giphy.gif

[iruinedyourday]

page

http://media.giphy.com/media/9nPKbPsH86jSM/giphy.gif

[iruinedyourday]

oh lawd

http://media.giphy.com/media/9nPKbPsH86jSM/giphy.gif

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Mods, please ban this moron for spam/unnecessary bumping.

[iruinedyourday]

Guys, I love bernie sanders, 2 threads front page! pras

makes me wanna dance! But u already know that.

[Big_Japan]

hey guys I think you found your way into the wrong thread, there is a thread about the 2016 presidential race located here (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205549). You should probably direct discussion to this thread for continuity's sake.

ty!

http://i59.tinypic.com/2ebamj9.png

[iruinedyourday]

there are 3 of us that have no lives...

http://rs1356.pbsrc.com/albums/q727/Starling_Kidi/Gifs/kaos-pinkusagi01_zpscefd470a.gif~c200

[Big_Japan]

my life is making sure we Make America Great Again. You're the one with no life

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

At work, on phone. Life get? What do I win? I'm not iruinedyourday! Best prize ever.

[iruinedyourday]

ok 2 of 3 of us think they are a little better than they really are

http://cringingface.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/kawaii-pose.png

[Big_Japan]

^the difference is i can do things like that, and do, IRL, unironically

u seem very uncomfortable in ur own skin buddy

[iruinedyourday]

https://secure.static.tumblr.com/7383cb85d33927eb9e4f314a0ff3363a/bdwhjmi/grVn8z2ux/tumblr_static_tumblr_static_52r5mi2uazk0s4w8c4kw8w swo_640.gif

[iruinedyourday]

Bernie Sanders calls voter suppression the act of republican cowards.. he may be an old jew but he will kick your ass.

[sOurDieSel]

Asking for ID to vote isn't "voter suppression"

Just got carded at the gas station. My first reaction was to call my local ACLU and report this 'beer suppression.' I hate it when the government and private business violate my rights by asking for ID in order to comply with federal and state law...

[iruinedyourday]

Asking for ID to vote isn't "voter suppression"

it is when you combine it with removal of DMV's in the counties & surrounding counties that vote democratically.

[Pokesan]

yes thats an identical situation well posted SD

[Pokesan]

with 54 words and 297 characters SD has proven false the entire democratic ideology. what a great man

[iruinedyourday]

It's remarkable how many people there are like sour that insist that there is no such thing as corruption lol

Here's some examples of republican party members admittedly using voter suppression as a tactic to win elections: http://billmoyers.com/2014/10/24/voter-discrimination/

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Or how about both sides are retarded?

[iruinedyourday]

Or how about both sides are retarded?

both sides may be retarded, but Bernie Sanders isn't!

[Orruar]

it is when you combine it with removal of DMV's in the counties & surrounding counties that vote democratically.

And when you combine shaking someone's hand with shooting them in the face, you get murder. That doesn't mean shaking hands is the problem. Maybe we should combine requiring IDs along with ensuring IDs are available in all areas? Or is that too obvious a solution for you?

[iruinedyourday]

And when you combine shaking someone's hand with shooting them in the face, you get murder. That doesn't mean shaking hands is the problem. Maybe we should combine requiring IDs along with ensuring IDs are available in all areas? Or is that too obvious a solution for you?

wait so you're going to sit there and try to tell me that a planned remove of DMV availability in counties where the same people set up voter id laws, who then later admit to this as a tactic to suppress democratic voters... is not suppressing democratic voters?

Why is it that when someone points out something that actually happens to right leaning people, you just pretend it isnt true at all and then make some bizarre analogy to compare it to?

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/10/alabama-dmv-closes-voter-id

In Alabama where voter ID is required every single county in which blacks make up more than 75 percent of registered voters saw their driver license office closed. Every one.

Personally I think we should go to mandatory voting, works for Australia. Just apply a small fine if you don't and make the day a holiday. A lot of smarter than everyone here people have proven that it is better overall for the society.

We already fine people plenty of dollars for parking violations, it wouldn't be Nazi Germany if we fined them for not voting.

those are my 2 cents on that.

[Pokesan]

And when you combine shaking someone's hand with shooting them in the face, you get murder. That doesn't mean shaking hands is the problem. Maybe we should combine requiring IDs along with ensuring IDs are available in all areas? Or is that too obvious a solution for you?

Sure, get the second part in place before the first and it's be a great solution to a problem that doesn't exist in any meaningful way.

[Orruar]

wait so you're going to sit there and try to tell me that a planned remove of DMV availability in counties where the same people set up voter id laws, who then later admit to this as a tactic to suppress democratic voters... is not suppressing democratic voters?

No, are you fucking dense? I'm saying that the removal of DMV availability is the problem. Requiring of the ID is not the problem. Fix the actual problem so the system can function and all can be happy. Refusing to require ID because it's too hard to acquire would be like the IRS deciding to stop enforcing income taxes because it's too hard to file taxes. It's not gonna happen.

[iruinedyourday]

Look you ass hole. At no point am i ever talking about weither or not voter ID is good OR bad. Its your 'dense' ass that is.

The whole fucking conversation is based on me sharing a link about bernie sanders calling the republican party cowards for relying on voter suppression to win elections.

Its like you're standing infront of a burning building trying to talk to the fire department about how fire 'isnt that bad - it heats us, cooks food etc'.

You fucking dipshit, I never said fire wasnt bad in SOME cases, but if you combine it and entire home, IT IS FUCKING BAD.

So dont argue with me about how voter ID 'may or may not' be good while im talking about something totally differant and Have the nerve to call ME dense.

Jesus christ you a holes are such tight assholed dicks sometimes for fucks sake.

[Orruar]

The inability to form and use analogies in a logically correct manner is a sign of low IQ. I'm sorry you were born like that buddy.

[Pokesan]

Orruar should identification cards used for voting be provided free of charge to the individual?

[Magikarp]

did not read thread

i vote bernie because he brings education funding to the table. even if he doesnt get elected he is placing the newfound crushing debt of students at the debate table

i am also part of union who already voted bernie sorry & thx

[Big_Japan]

did not read thread

i vote bernie because he brings education funding to the table. even if he doesnt get elected he is placing the newfound crushing debt of students at the debate table

i am also part of union who already voted bernie sorry & thx

both hitler and stalin were elected by single issue voters like yourself

[Orruar]

Orruar should identification cards used for voting be provided free of charge to the individual?

Absolutely.

[Ranndom]

did not read thread

i vote bernie because he brings education funding to the table. even if he doesnt get elected he is placing the newfound crushing debt of students at the debate table

i am also part of union who already voted bernie sorry & thx

Hitler Was a socialist (National)
Bernie is a socialist (*democratic* <--thats literally laughable)
Obama is a Socialist (not sure which sub he defines as)
The list goes on and on, If you want to be a single issue voter, Single issue that.
Not education funding. Our public school system has failed, its turning into a pile of PC garbage thats only lies.

[iruinedyourday]

Man a muslim president, now this neo hitler. Whats next alien presidents? This isnt MY planet.

I love how one candidate says mexicans should be rounded up in camps and are the source of all our problems.. And the idiots think the jew is hitler :rolleyes:

[Magikarp]

Hitler Was a socialist (National)
Bernie is a socialist (*democratic* <--thats literally laughable)
Obama is a Socialist (not sure which sub he defines as)
The list goes on and on, If you want to be a single issue voter, Single issue that.
Not education funding. Our public school system has failed, its turning into a pile of PC garbage thats only lies.

the word socialist doesnt scare me. the word hitler doesnt scare me. sorry but i dont see your issue

im glad you recognize our education system needs improvement. i would prefer not to give up on it. that is all im focused on for now

[Magikarp]

both hitler and stalin were elected by single issue voters like yourself

i really dont get this argument

are you implying that you think bernie is going to order the mass execution of a race or mass deportions or commit war crimes against its neighbors (i guess canada & mexico) in the name of nationalism? im not convinced that any of the candidates would be any more or less likely to do this. it hasnt been properly discussed in the debates, probably because its kinda retarded


also are you implying that im ignorant because i care about an actual practical issue? at least im not drawing connections to 20th century dictators and voting based on fear and rhetoric

[ronasch]

i really dont get this argument

are you implying that you think bernie is going to order the mass execution of a race or mass deportions or commit war crimes against its neighbors (i guess canada) in the name of nationalism?

im not convinced that any of the candidates would be any more or less likely to do this. it really hasnt been discussed in the debates

I don't believe anyone is saying Bernie is going to commit Genocide, but Socialism creates a population dependant on the government stealing wealth from others to distribute it amongst the masses. Therefore pushing us further down this rabbit hole will result in less and less of those wealthy people who are to be taxed and 2,3,4,5 Presidents from now may "have to" carry out the enslavement/genocide so people like " Iruinedyourday" can masturbate to tranny porn online for free.

[Magikarp]

I don't believe anyone is saying Bernie is going to commit Genocide, but Socialism creates a population dependant on the government stealing wealth from others to distribute it amongst the masses. Therefore pushing us further down this rabbit hole will result in less and less of those wealthy people who are to be taxed and 2,3,4,5 Presidents from now may "have to" carry out the enslavement/genocide so people like " Iruinedyourday" can masturbate to tranny porn online for free.

all i see here is that is that bernie will defend my access to free tranny porn.

i am now a double-issue voter. bernie all day

[Ranndom]

all i see here is that is that bernie will defend my access to free tranny porn.

i am now a double-issue voter. bernie all day

Plot twist, Bernie beleives trannys arent human and should be the target of sed genocide

[Ranndom]

the word socialist doesnt scare me. the word hitler doesnt scare me. sorry but i dont see your issue

im glad you recognize our education system needs improvement. i would prefer not to give up on it. that is all im focused on for now

Karl Marx
Early Soviet Union and many communist parties from around the world

"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions were his own, but they shared everything they had." -A bible verse, one of a few responsible for the origins of socialism. Oh btw, your house, its everyones house now. Get to sharing. (theres plenty of migrants willing to rape your family, wether or not you grant them access)
Heres the funny part though, in a socialist society, do you really think governments wont own private property? They will, and youll just become their rats in cages waiting to be experimented on.
Socialism has a strong belief that private property is non existent. Keep that in mind.
A french socialist came up with the word for feminism...That fact just bugs me.
(Youll enjoy this point, since you think our education needs improvement)Some things socialist arent bad. In fact, modern America today at leasts attempts to hold on socialist perspective on education. Where as all children should recieve an equal and balanced set of opportunities UNTIL they reach maturity where it then becomes up to them to make a life for themselves. Bernie doesnt want this. He doesnt want self sufficient adults. Bernie wants children, wether 18 or 60, that he can control. Children that cant support themselves, children that instead of fixing something themselves theyll go straight to big brother. Obedient snitches willing to create a bigger problem because a smaller problem arose.
Hell, Karl Marx even said Socialism is the first step to Communism. So it would only make sense for a Communist to be the only fitting leader of a Socialist society.

[iruinedyourday]

I don't believe anyone is saying Bernie is going to commit Genocide, but Socialism creates a population dependant on the government stealing wealth from others to distribute it amongst the masses. Therefore pushing us further down this rabbit hole will result in less and less of those wealthy people who are to be taxed and 2,3,4,5 Presidents from now may "have to" carry out the enslavement/genocide so people like " Iruinedyourday" can masturbate to tranny porn online for free.

man you know whats funny about right leaning people vs democrats? People on the right base all of their decision making on emotion and ideology...

you think our economic policies will change the way people behave, and that you can create laws based on how you wish people acted.

while democrats, socialists and other left leaning progressives look AT the way people behave, react, and create laws to prevent people from taking advantage of other people or to make sure everyone pays their fair share. to make sure we have a growing economy etc... not an economy that would grow, if only everyone would start just 'doing the right thing' as perceived by a small minority of vocal folks who are really scared (of pretty much everything).

simply put if you want to have a single issue, for now lets make it that someone making one billion dollars a year pays the same in taxes as someone who makes $118,000 a year and that's just fucking stupid.

Our system makes people dependant on fucking people over so you can get as much as possible, to lie cheat and steal if you are a corperation, and if you fail, you'll get bailed out.

The only difference between our current system (built by the right for the last 30 years) and socialism is that instead of being a socialist country for the rich, we'll be one for EVERY person.

TL;DR: All we have here is idealists complaining about realists.

[Ranndom]

while democrats, socialists and other left leaning progressives look AT the way people behave, react, and create laws to prevent people from taking advantage of other people or to make sure everyone pays their fair share.


Fair share? So, if i work 16 hours, and you work 8 hours, Its only fair that you get 6 hours payment, i get 6 hours payment, and big brother gets 12 hours payment?
Sounds to me like those laws take advantage of everyone equally, and only benefit the enforcers.

[iruinedyourday]

Fair share? So, if i work 16 hours, and you work 8 hours, Its only fair that you get 6 hours payment, i get 6 hours payment, and big brother gets 12 hours payment?
Sounds to me like those laws take advantage of everyone equally, and only benefit the enforcers.

this is not what anyone is talking about, only you are.

If thats the economic policy that you think that bernie sanders is trying to bring to the table then you are just posting: 'i am ignorant and have no idea what any of you are talking about'

[Era'viss]

Who the Fuck pays for porn?

[Ranndom]

this is not what anyone is talking about, only you are.

If thats the economic policy that you think that bernie sanders is trying to bring to the table then you are just posting: 'i am ignorant and have no idea what any of you are talking about'

Lol i dont care what hes plans to do because his plans are lies. His lies have so people caught up in free shit even the forked tongue devil hillary can only say "Yea i plan to do that to" in response. Bernie will turn a lazy country into an even lazier one

[Ranndom]

Who the Fuck pays for porn?

People with guilty conscious's....Who knows why. Closet gays perhaps feeling guilty?

[Magikarp]

people are screaming at the top of their lungs to get the minimum wage raised and its being shut down by very strong lobbies and logical arguments. dont get me wrong. i dont have an informed opinion on the minimum wage issue. im just saying they haven't been able to budge that number

somehow i dont think any of the candidates will have the power to change the system such that those working 16 hours will get the same as someone working 6

this is pretty much fantasy

[Ranndom]

people are screaming at the top of their lungs to get the minimum wage raised and its being shut down by very strong lobbies and logical arguments. dont get me wrong. i dont have an informed opinion on the minimum wage issue. im just saying they haven't been able to budge that number

somehow i dont think any of the candidates will have the power to change the system such that those working 16 hours will get the same as someone working 6

this is pretty much fantasy

Minimum wage isnt the problem. Just an effect of it.
The real problem is a currency based on imagination. However, the uneducated masses have no idea that our dollar is no longer based on gold. Those same masses would tell you 1500 dollars worth of silver is worth about 50 bucks.

[iruinedyourday]

This alien is going to get us all high: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/10/22/bernie-sanders-says-hes-open-to-legalizing-marijuana-use/

[Ranndom]

This alien is going to get us all high: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/10/22/bernie-sanders-says-hes-open-to-legalizing-marijuana-use/

Well for starters, it has no purpose to be illegal other than revenue generation, as our prison system currently shows.
Funny how the legalization of weed isnt even an issue these days, its a publicity stunt.

[Magikarp]

Minimum wage isnt the problem. Just an effect of it.
The real problem is a currency based on imagination. However, the uneducated masses have no idea that our dollar is no longer based on gold. Those same masses would tell you 1500 dollars worth of silver is worth about 50 bucks.

well no one has proposed a solution to that. they wouldnt have made it this far in this fine democracy of ours with a commitment to fix this serious problem. this isnt really a bernie issue

[iruinedyourday]

well no one has proposed a solution to that. they wouldnt have made it this far in this fine democracy of ours with a commitment to fix this serious problem. this isnt really a bernie issue

lol pal, random is a broken man whos brain exists only to spin paranoid ignorant lies into frenzies.. you're wasting your time trying to have a discussion with him, he represents american jihadists ideals, he promotes home grown terrorism, hes a nut job wackadoodle who bases his arguments only on shit he thinks is real and true but in fact are just made up delusions of his own mind.

[ronasch]

Single

10% | $1 - $9,225 <---- Iruinedyourday
15% | $9,226 to $37,450
25% | $37,451 to $90,750
28% | $90,751 to $189,300
33% | $189,301 to $411,500
35% | $411,501 to $413,200
39.6% | over $413,200
Married/Joint & Widow(er)

10% | $1 - $18,450
15% | $18,451 to $74,900
25% | $74,901 to $151,200
28% | $151,201 to $230,450
33% | $230,451 to $411,500
35% | $411,501 to $464,850
39.6% | over $464,850
Married Separate

10% | $1 - $9,225
15% | $9,226 to $37,450
25% | $37,451 to $75,600
28% | $75,601 to $115,225
33% | $115,226 to $205,750
35% | $205,751 to $232,425
39.6% | over $232,425
Head of Household

10% | $1 - $13,150
15% | $13,151 to $50,200
25% | $50,201 to $129,600
28% | $129,601 to $209,850
33% | $209,851 to $411,500
35% | $411,501 to $439,200
39.6% | over $439,200

Iruinedyourday please quit lying. If u are mad about hedge fund managers go after them and leave the rest of us alone.

[iruinedyourday]

Iruinedyourday please quit lying. If u are mad about hedge fund managers go after them and leave the rest of us alone.

Im sorry you were smart enough to use google but not smart enough to realise i was not as specific as I should ahve been when I was talking about SOCIAL SECURITY TAXES which to 99.9% of americans are VERY important.

For 2015, the maximum amount of taxable earnings for Social Security rises to $118,500 from $117,000 in 2014. In other words, an employee must pay 6.2% of any income up to $118,500 for 2015 = $7,347. But any dollar you make above $118,500 is free of the Social Security tax. Hence, a good goal for everyone is to make as much as they can over $118,500 as possible, right? - See more at: http://www.financialsamurai.com/maximum-taxable-income-amount-for-social-security-fica/#sthash.0U2e98lM.dpuf

Side note, nothing that bernie sanders will do, unless you are making over 250k a year will affect you besides providing you with a better quality of life.

[Big_Japan]

i really dont get this argument

are you implying that you think bernie is going to order the mass execution of a race or mass deportions or commit war crimes against its neighbors (i guess canada & mexico) in the name of nationalism? im not convinced that any of the candidates would be any more or less likely to do this. it hasnt been properly discussed in the debates, probably because its kinda retarded


also are you implying that im ignorant because i care about an actual practical issue? at least im not drawing connections to 20th century dictators and voting based on fear and rhetoric

actually i was making a joke stalin wasn't elected

[Big_Japan]

This alien is going to get us all high: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/10/22/bernie-sanders-says-hes-open-to-legalizing-marijuana-use/

woo, more bread and circus

call me when someone is talking about legalizing LSD and other harmless altered states as a matter of principle instead of only the mkultra-approved goystupefiants confirmed to increase frito-lay and coca-cola company revenue

[Ranndom]

well no one has proposed a solution to that. they wouldnt have made it this far in this fine democracy of ours with a commitment to fix this serious problem. this isnt really a bernie issue

There is only one solution. This country has to be torn down and remade, by the people. Not by Governments. Anything else is only stacking more crud. Eventually, if we dont do it on purpose, it will crumble on its own.

[Ranndom]

lol pal, random is a broken man whos brain exists only to spin paranoid ignorant lies into frenzies.. you're wasting your time trying to have a discussion with him, he represents american jihadists ideals, he promotes home grown terrorism, hes a nut job wackadoodle who bases his arguments only on shit he thinks is real and true but in fact are just made up delusions of his own mind.

This coming from a Muslim Communist means nothing.

[iruinedyourday]

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/happy__squirrel/My%20Gifs/BilboPointUp.gif

[Orruar]

make sure everyone pays their fair share

Out of curiosity, what was your net tax bill last year? Taxes paid minus direct benefits received. Did you pay your fair share? Is your number even positive, or did you receive more in benefits than you paid in taxes? Just to be fair, I'll go first and share that I'm paying a good $15-20k per year now and starting to think maybe that's a little more than my fair share.

[Magikarp]

There is only one solution. This country has to be torn down and remade, by the people. Not by Governments. Anything else is only stacking more crud. Eventually, if we dont do it on purpose, it will crumble on its own.

thanks but i think ill just vote for bernie

[Gilder]

Out of curiosity, what was your net tax bill last year? Taxes paid minus direct benefits received. Did you pay your fair share? Is your number even positive, or did you receive more in benefits than you paid in taxes? Just to be fair, I'll go first and share that I'm paying a good $15-20k per year now and starting to think maybe that's a little more than my fair share.

Orrurar, don't you know? The fair share = a TON of money for everyone else. And as little as possible for the individual.

I agree with you. People who complain about the fair share are typically people who pay nothing in taxes. I paid about $1,100 last year and was outraged. I also receive royalty payments for my work and in a single royalty payment, I paid more than TEN TIMES that in taxes (that's on top of the tax for my regular salary). I can only imagine how it feels to pay hundreds of thousands and dollars every year.

[Ranndom]

thanks but i think ill just vote for bernie

Lol, a vote for bernie is a vote for slavery. You're gonna feel that bern in shackles.

[Ranndom]

I can only imagine how it feels to pay hundreds of thousands and dollars every year.

Considering almost anyone who makes over 200 grand does basically nothing in life and just has everyone else do the work for them, who gives a shit?

[ronasch]

Im sorry you were smart enough to use google but not smart enough to realise i was not as specific as I should ahve been when I was talking about SOCIAL SECURITY TAXES which to 99.9% of americans are VERY important.

Iruinedyourday, maybe being a little more specific in what your bitching about would bring more people to agree with you. I highly doubt you care about specifics though, your using a typical liberal/progressive tactic by trying to enrage the uninformed masses with half truths.

Your boy Sanders sure does love Denmark

Denmark a country of 5 million people and a land mass of about Maryland taxes someone making $55,000/year @ 60.02%. They have no military whatsoever and their government issued home is 900 SQ. Feet.

Middle class Losing over half of your income and literally living in a closet sounds good to me.

[iruinedyourday]

Out of curiosity, what was your net tax bill last year? Taxes paid minus direct benefits received. Did you pay your fair share? Is your number even positive, or did you receive more in benefits than you paid in taxes? Just to be fair, I'll go first and share that I'm paying a good $15-20k per year now and starting to think maybe that's a little more than my fair share.

and thats as long as I felt comfortable talking about my personal life with all the assholes and nutjobs in this thread.

Sorry orrur if you missed it, you're going to have to find another way to prove whatever point you are trying to prove.

wait fuck poki quoted me lol

fuck..

[Pokesan]

What is your reason for asking is what I'd like to know.

he's trying to shame you

it's a dick move

[iruinedyourday]

he's trying to shame you

it's a dick move

I figured he was trying to prove a point by hopefully outing me as a taker and thinking that he'd be solidifying all of his arguments based on a single elf sim poster.

PS poke, thanks for editing your quote <3 :)

[Ranndom]

and thats as long as I felt comfortable talking about my personal life with all the assholes and nutjobs in this thread.

Sorry orrur if you missed it, you're going to have to find another way to prove whatever point you are trying to prove.

wait fuck poki quoted me lol

fuck..

Such a bold talker, yet such a cowardly retraction. I hear your bark, i laugh at your bite.

[Rararboker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdE0043WyfE

[Gilder]

Considering almost anyone who makes over 200 grand does basically nothing in life and just has everyone else do the work for them, who gives a shit?

"Basically nothing in life."

We're posting on a 15 year old fantasy game forum! This is the very essence of nothing!

[iruinedyourday]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdE0043WyfE

if you're trying to insult me for feeling less than comfortable sharing aspects about my real life that 1 nobody here has any buisness knowing and 2 sharing personal aspects of my life with you jackels at all.. then- -

...wait

why the fuck are you even remotely knowledgeable about anything Big Bang Theory? are you my fucking grandmother?

[Ranndom]

if you're trying to insult me for feeling less than comfortable sharing aspects about my real life that 1 nobody here has any buisness knowing and 2 sharing personal aspects of my life with you jackels at all.. then- -

...wait

why the fuck are you even remotely knowledgeable about anything Big Bang Theory? are you my fucking grandmother?

The irony of this comment being you already posted those aspects and then bitched out and got scurred.
You're a jackass that probably has no idea what its like to actually live an actual life. Id bet money you make over 130 a year. i can tell you i dont even make 20, and thats by choice. Ive turned down 30k salary, ive turned down 70-100k a year and only a 7 month work period. I dont take these jobs that are still guaranteed to me to this day because i dont want to turn into the people like you. Becoming someone like you is literally my worst fear in life.

[iruinedyourday]

http://i.imgur.com/EVfcrbZ.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/df/ae/bc/dfaebccbe8f713750c267a06378fd567.jpg

[Ranndom]

http://i.imgur.com/EVfcrbZ.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/df/ae/bc/dfaebccbe8f713750c267a06378fd567.jpg

I know your egotistical ass cant resist putting on a show. If you dont un ignore me to read my words it would literally drive you insane. But i must admit, you make quite the puppeteer, but a better marionette.

[Orruar]

he's trying to shame you

Dude claimed everyone should have to pay their fair share. It seems only fair for us to know whether said person is currently living in a manner in which they claim we all should live. If someone tells me that people should never drink alcohol, and they turn out to be a raging alcoholic, that would make them a hypocrite.

[Orruar]

and thats as long as I felt comfortable talking about my personal life with all the assholes and nutjobs in this thread.

Sorry orrur if you missed it, you're going to have to find another way to prove whatever point you are trying to prove.

Nice dodge, but we all know you don't pay your fair share. When you say you want people to pay their fair share, you mean everyone except you and people like you. It's the exact same attitude as those greedy bankers you rail against. You are no different than those you despise. That must suck.

[iruinedyourday]

Nice dodge, but we all know you don't pay your fair share. When you say you want people to pay their fair share, you mean everyone except you and people like you. It's the exact same attitude as those greedy bankers you rail against. You are no different than those you despise. That must suck.

even IF I didn't pay my fair share it would prove nothing.

dude, you are such a fucking worthless asshole. I have tried to be corgal with you and treat you like someone who though they disagree with me is someone I could respect and have a debate about this shit with.

But you just insist on being a fucking douche bag.

Even random shows more cognitive intelligence in this thread than you do man. Stop just being an asshole and start just being someone who has different opinions.

That whole voter ID thing really man, was all you fucking up and you attacked me even though during the whole time I never once attacked you.

You owe me an apology nerd.

Dude claimed everyone should have to pay their fair share. It seems only fair for us to know whether said person is currently living in a manner in which they claim we all should live. If someone tells me that people should never drink alcohol, and they turn out to be a raging alcoholic, that would make them a hypocrite.

I am saying that everyone should pay thier fair share of taxes and our current system does not do that...

IM not talking about idologies here, YOU are.. and if anyone is calling out people here for being hypocrites, its definitely me.

do you think some people shouldnt have to pay taxes? Thats your fucking stance on this shit? Gimi a break

[Pokesan]

Dude claimed everyone should have to pay their fair share. It seems only fair for us to know whether said person is currently living in a manner in which they claim we all should live. If someone tells me that people should never drink alcohol, and they turn out to be a raging alcoholic, that would make them a hypocrite.

Nice dodge, but we all know you don't pay your fair share. When you say you want people to pay their fair share, you mean everyone except you and people like you. It's the exact same attitude as those greedy bankers you rail against. You are no different than those you despise. That must suck.

Firstly and foremostly, you can't disprove his argument by indicting his character. That's some weak bullshit and I know you're smart enough to know better. Attack the idea, not the speaker.

Secondly, you(or anyone) having more than him does not make your political, or any, opinions better. There is nothing moral or immoral about having wealth or not. Please find a better compass than bank account size.

Thirdly, I'm very disappointed in you. I really thought you were better than this. :(

[Pokesan]

I have tried to be corgal with you



gettin corgal soon here myself

http://i.imgur.com/0o3VBPI.jpg

[iruinedyourday]

Hehe thx poke

[Orruar]

I have tried to be corgal with you and treat you like someone who though they disagree with me is someone I could respect and have a debate about this shit with.

I never once attacked you.

Oh this is rich. Let's see what we can find...

Look you ass hole.

Its your 'dense' ass that is.

You fucking dipshit

Jesus christ you a holes are such tight assholed dicks sometimes for fucks sake.

That's in this one thread. I could pop over to the other Bernie Sanders thread and pick up dozens more personal attacks/insults. You're either flat out lying or you have a very strange way of being "corgal".

[Orruar]

do you think some people shouldnt have to pay taxes? Thats your fucking stance on this shit? Gimi a break

I think everyone should pay their fair share, both rich and poor. But most of the time when people complain about people not paying their fair share, it's people who pay 0% in taxes complaining about people paying 20-25% in taxes and thinking they should be paying more like 40-50%+. I think it's much more of a problem that nearly half our country pays $0 in federal income taxes than the hedge fund managers that are taxed at an average of 23.8%.

All I ask is that if you're going to complain about people not paying their fair share when they're already paying over 20% of their income, that you be one of the ones who is actually chipping in a decent amount. If we're at a party and chipping in for pizza and you put in 50 cents, you can't then complain that the guy who put in $10 isn't paying enough.

[Orruar]

Firstly and foremostly, you can't disprove his argument by indicting his character. That's some weak bullshit and I know you're smart enough to know better. Attack the idea, not the speaker.(

You assume we're in a rational debate. However, I am engaged with iruinedyourday, which by definition renders the debate irrational. As you can see by my previous post, he engages in personal attacks flagrantly and often, and any/all attempts to inject cool rational debate into the mix just goes straight over his head. As someone smarter than me said "You can't argue someone out of a position that they weren't argued into." He's one of those people who makes decisions based on emotions and feelings. And so I went for that approach by exposing his hypocrisy and lies, to possibly shame him into rethinking his support of state sanctioned theft. Of course, that's probably a silly dream. As we have seen multiple times now, pointing out lies and contradictions in his argument just lead to anger and further ossification of his opinions.

[sOurDieSel]

Gosh Orruar, don't you know that liberals are hypocrites that don't have to follow their own rules they make up out of thin air?

Don't you disagree with iruinedurday! or he will cry to sirken and 'shut this thread down' if you don't stroke bernie the way he wants.

[Daldaen]

I think everyone should pay their fair share, both rich and poor. But most of the time when people complain about people not paying their fair share, it's people who pay 0% in taxes complaining about people paying 20-25% in taxes and thinking they should be paying more like 40-50%+. I think it's much more of a problem that nearly half our country pays $0 in federal income taxes than the hedge fund managers that are taxed at an average of 23.8%.

All I ask is that if you're going to complain about people not paying their fair share when they're already paying over 20% of their income, that you be one of the ones who is actually chipping in a decent amount. If we're at a party and chipping in for pizza and you put in 50 cents, you can't then complain that the guy who put in $10 isn't paying enough.

Paying their fair share is a false catchphrase that people like to use.

Basically what they really want is to increase the top tier (or make a new top tier of earned over X) from 40% to 45 or 50%, and generate the same amount of revenue by taxing millionaires that new rate as you would taxing the lower half of the country 10-15%.

It would work.... But it's certainly not fair. Well, it would work until the tax code is again changed and allows further loopholes to avoid paying their taxes.

I don't really see the fact that half pay nothing in federal taxes as the problem though. Many of those at the very bottom live hand to mouth, it's very difficult to take away 5-10% of their income and still subsist with the bare necessities. It seems more ideological than practical to find the lack of a federal income tax on the lowest earning individuals as a big problem. You're just not going to pull in the revenue required to run our government by making that change. Removing loopholes and increasing the top tier tax bracket may though, and without impacting their lives in a huge way.

Is that fair or people paying their "fair share", no of course not.

[Orruar]

Gosh Orruar, don't you know that liberals are hypocrites that don't have to follow their own rules they make up out of thin air?

Don't you disagree with iruinedurday! or he will cry to sirken and 'shut this thread down' if you don't stroke bernie the way he wants.

Don't you DARE ruin his safe space like this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U

[iruinedyourday]

hey hey, lets try to turn this thread around.

look first of all, all the examples you gave of me being a dick, are examples from me reacting to you after YOU started attacking me out of nowhere.

Second off I was PO'd because not only were you attacking me, but you made the mistake in the conversation, and you still attacked me.

That said Im over it and dont want to turn this into an endless thread where we just attack each other personally over and over page after page.

Ill just have to assume that everyone here thinks the other person they're spending all this time writing posts to communicate with, are complete and total fucking retards. SO WERE GOING TO MAKE SOME REAL PROGRESS HERE EH!?

Anyway, yea... enjoy you're guys's "debates", where you all hate each other and have zero respect for anyone each others e opinion... You'r opinion, orraur I have respected and even tried to understand when it was the polar opposite of mine.

Anyway as usual the liberal here is going to try to be the bigger man and I will apologize if you think I attacked you in the past and or if you think I am an asshole. I have a low tolerance for ignorance which is why rand/sour get so much flack from me.

[Lune]

Paying their fair share is a false catchphrase that people like to use.

Basically what they really want is to increase the top tier (or make a new top tier of earned over X) from 40% to 45 or 50%, and generate the same amount of revenue by taxing millionaires that new rate as you would taxing the lower half of the country 10-15%.

It would work.... But it's certainly not fair. Well, it would work until the tax code is again changed and allows further loopholes to avoid paying their taxes.

I don't really see the fact that half pay nothing in federal taxes as the problem though. Many of those at the very bottom live hand to mouth, it's very difficult to take away 5-10% of their income and still subsist with the bare necessities. It seems more ideological than practical to find the lack of a federal income tax on the lowest earning individuals as a big problem. You're just not going to pull in the revenue required to run our government by making that change. Removing loopholes and increasing the top tier tax bracket may though, and without impacting their lives in a huge way.

Is that fair or people paying their "fair share", no of course not.

You also have to look at it in the context of the wider economics. Right now the United States is descending into a state of neo-feudalism in which labor is indentured. This is only a slight exaggeration. There are three statuses currently:

1. Primary owners: own vast amounts of property, licenses, institutions including banks, controls the political process. These are your .1%

2. Secondary owners: Middle and lower class people who own their own home.

3. Serfs: Middle and lower class people who don't own property, and barely even own their own labor because of student loan debt, home loan debt, etc.

The crisis of the last few decades can be summarized like this: Group #2 is being squeezed into group #3 by depressed wages and a failing economy*. Group 3's also experiencing depressed wages and decreased opportunity that impedes their ability to move up to group #2. In many ways the ability to be a member of group #2 is one of the primary principles our country was founded upon, and something every person on the political spectrum ultimately aspires to (liberals, conservatives, fascists, libertarians, socialists, etc). Right now that model is falling apart.

* The economy is failing. The Great Recession was declared over because the only metric that is used to differentiate a Recession or Depression from the normal state of things is GDP growth. Although the GDP is technically growing, that increase in prosperity is concentrated in financial institutions and other large corporations. Real unemployment (not the kind they measure, but the kind that actually exists) is still extremely high, wages are low and staying low, the cost of living is increasing, and the job market still sucks.

The rules of 'fairness' and the 'free market' dictate that everything that is happening right now is okay. Financial institutions competed and won, labor lost. I mean, tampering with it would be redistribution, right? And that's communism/socialism. Taxing the poorest 50% of the population the same or even close to the highest 10% is fair (using the simplest most surface-level definition of the word). But it's not the right thing to do. Right now the lower and middle classes need to be subsidized, and the factors that are working toward their destruction need to be addressed. Having wealth is conducive to generating more wealth (rather, acquiring a larger share of society's aggregate wealth), and left unchecked, it will only continue to get worse.

I'm curious as to whether you classical liberals in here truly view that as an acceptable outcome. I mean, you can't exactly blame the federal government for the country's elite becoming our country's owners, because a true free market would make it even easier for them to expand their wealth and property. I think one of the most accessible ways to reverse this would be wider participation in unions, expanded labor laws, and tax reform. Private enterprise has become extremely good at smothering unions before they begin, and countering those that exist, and union participation is at an all time low. Many unions that do exist are corrupt and do a poor job representing their members. This is something in desperate need of reform, at both a cultural and legislative level, and is hardly even talked about.

[Orruar]

during the whole time I never once attacked you.

look first of all, all the examples you gave of me being a dick, are examples from me reacting to you after YOU started attacking me out of nowhere.

You say two completely contradictory statements within the span of about 15 hours. This is a marked improvement over your 10 hour turnaround in the dem debates thread.

[iruinedyourday]

You say two completely contradictory statements within the span of about 15 hours. This is a marked improvement over your 10 hour turnaround in the dem debates thread.

god man you are seriously killing me with this shit...

I said it like 9 times, I called you an asshole for attacking me. up until that point I never once attacked you, never once.

[Raev]

It's just incredible to watch you blame the failures of government on the free market. I'm going to take 20 minutes out of my day to explain 'carry trading' to you. A carry trade works like this:

Borrow 100 million in JPY from a Japanese bank using 5 million in collateral
Use money to buy US dollars and then US stocks (or bonds, or EM securities, or whatever)
Watch asset go up because everyone else is doing the same thing
Sell stocks/bonds for 125 million. Buy back devalued yen for 75 million. (USDJPY has gone from 75 to 120+ over the past three years)
Make 50 million profit on a 5 million investment, or 1000% nearly risk free over a few years

Or, let's say you don't like carry trading. You're the CEO of Alcoa. You decide you like money. So:

You borrow 1 billion from a bank at 0.25%
You buy back 10% of your stock.
Suddenly your earnings divided by net capitalization are 10% higher
Share prices rise, and you cash in your stock options for 20 million


The 0.1% have been making money hand over fist because of government controlled central bank free money. Even if all you do is buy SPY/QQQ, you just made 150% on your investment over the past 5 years, taxed at 20% capital gains. The poorest 20% don't benefit from this, because they are too poor to invest in stocks and bonds. If the central banks stopped printing, none of this would be happening.

How exactly do you consider this to be 'unrestricted capitalism' ?

[Lune]

It's just incredible to watch you blame the failures of government on the free market. I'm going to take 20 minutes out of my day to explain 'carry trading' to you. A carry trade works like this:

Borrow 100 million in JPY from a Japanese bank using 5 million in collateral
Use money to buy US dollars and then US stocks (or bonds, or EM securities, or whatever)
Watch asset go up because everyone else is doing the same thing
Sell stocks/bonds for 125 million. Buy back devalued yen for 75 million. (USDJPY has gone from 75 to 120+ over the past three years)
Make 50 million profit on a 5 million investment, or 1000% nearly risk free over a few years

Or, let's say you don't like carry trading. You're the CEO of Alcoa. You decide you like money. So:

You borrow 1 billion from a bank at 0.25%
You buy back 10% of your stock.
Suddenly your earnings divided by net capitalization are 10% higher
Share prices rise, and you cash in your stock options for 20 million


The 0.1% have been making money hand over fist because of government controlled central bank free money. Even if all you do is buy SPY/QQQ, you just made 150% on your investment over the past 5 years, taxed at 20% capital gains. The poorest 20% don't benefit from this, because they are too poor to invest in stocks and bonds. If the central banks stopped printing, none of this would be happening.

How exactly do you consider this to be 'unrestricted capitalism' ?

Yep, you've found one way in which financial institutions use non free-market mechanisms to make money. Many more exist, and it's beside the point. Government and the elite have colluded in many ways to precipitate this situation. That's what you get when political representation can be bought with money.

Let's look at this from premises to conclusions:

Premise 1: The more capital you have, the easier it is to get more.

Premise 2: The free market has no mechanism to prevent wealth from becoming concentrated in the hands of the most successful individuals or organizations.

Conclusion: The free market can't save the middle class from the current situation, because it can only remove barriers associated with premises #1 and #2.

Which of these is wrong? The concentration of wealth is a universal constant in human history, and it's one of the realities of capitalism. It is only New Deal type socialist institutions, and the labor movement toward unions, that have only slightly countered this during the last 100 years or so. Now those institutions are failing. The labor movement is almost nonexistent in the US. The government primarily serves the economic elite. I'm not focusing on how it became this way, but how we fix it. What aspect of free market economics do you believe has the capacity to effect redistribution?

Why is it that countries with strong labor movements and more socialist governments aren't having their middle and lower classes plundered like we are?

[Lojik]

You also have to look at it in the context of the wider economics. Right now the United States is descending into a state of neo-feudalism in which labor is indentured. This is only a slight exaggeration. There are three statuses currently:

1. Primary owners: own vast amounts of property, licenses, institutions including banks, controls the political process. These are your .1%

2. Secondary owners: Middle and lower class people who own their own home.

3. Serfs: Middle and lower class people who don't own property, and barely even own their own labor because of student loan debt, home loan debt, etc.

The crisis of the last few decades can be summarized like this: Group #2 is being squeezed into group #3 by depressed wages and a failing economy*. Group 3's also experiencing depressed wages and decreased opportunity that impedes their ability to move up to group #2. In many ways the ability to be a member of group #2 is one of the primary principles our country was founded upon, and something every person on the political spectrum ultimately aspires to (liberals, conservatives, fascists, libertarians, socialists, etc). Right now that model is falling apart.

* The economy is failing. The Great Recession was declared over because the only metric that is used to differentiate a Recession or Depression from the normal state of things is GDP growth. Although the GDP is technically growing, that increase in prosperity is concentrated in financial institutions and other large corporations. Real unemployment (not the kind they measure, but the kind that actually exists) is still extremely high, wages are low and staying low, the cost of living is increasing, and the job market still sucks.

The rules of 'fairness' and the 'free market' dictate that everything that is happening right now is okay. Financial institutions competed and won, labor lost. I mean, tampering with it would be redistribution, right? And that's communism/socialism. Taxing the poorest 50% of the population the same or even close to the highest 10% is fair (using the simplest most surface-level definition of the word). But it's not the right thing to do. Right now the lower and middle classes need to be subsidized, and the factors that are working toward their destruction need to be addressed. Having wealth is conducive to generating more wealth (rather, acquiring a larger share of society's aggregate wealth), and left unchecked, it will only continue to get worse.

I'm curious as to whether you classical liberals in here truly view that as an acceptable outcome. I mean, you can't exactly blame the federal government for the country's elite becoming our country's owners, because a true free market would make it even easier for them to expand their wealth and property. I think one of the most accessible ways to reverse this would be wider participation in unions, expanded labor laws, and tax reform. Private enterprise has become extremely good at smothering unions before they begin, and countering those that exist, and union participation is at an all time low. Many unions that do exist are corrupt and do a poor job representing their members. This is something in desperate need of reform, at both a cultural and legislative level, and is hardly even talked about.


I think what has started us down this road is unrealistic expectations...everyone thinks they have a god given right to go to college, buy a house, have a cushy job, get 6 weeks vacation every year, a company that pays your retirement...the american dream right? But how many people actually know what it takes to get there... what have we really done as a nation to make this sort of thing a reality for most people?

We try to subsidize higher education by making it easy to get student loans (that would be cheaper than normal) and what happens? Tuition prices go up every year, and this makes sense now that most high school graduates can get into some kind of college. What they don't realize is that education isn't necessarily going to get them a whole lot, and half the population that goes to college gets saddled with debt for a degree they didn't need, or that they didn't even earn because they failed out. Instead of making it easier to get student loans, they should make it more difficult: prove to the lender that not only are you a great candidate, but that you actually have intentions of doing something with your degree. I actually think a state run university system that was fully paid for would be better than the subsidies we have. We could focus more on vocational or technical two year universities, make unemployed go to mandatory classes on job searching or career building that are actually useful...do something to make the american worker more productive, not just blame rich people for being rich.

Same with healthcare...I could potentially be behind a state run healthcare system, but the way it is now is a joke, and no this is not a rail against obamacare. It started decades ago when they made medical benefits non taxable (essentially a subsidy.) The result is expected: a higher demand for an artificially low priced item (for some at least.)

Defense spending: Do I really need to explain why we don't need to spend as much on defense as the next 14 highest countries combined? (Or whatever the number is.) But good luck getting a defense budget slashed, I live near DC and half my friends either work for the DOD or some defense contractor. And remind me, is it republocrats or demuplicans who support a smaller defense budget...I forget.

Politics: How much money is wasted every year on electing people who promise all this crap, but really the only difference is what special interest groups have them in their pocket: yes there are some politicians who aren't like that (maybe?) Aren't contributions to a political party tax deductible? It's no wonder political spending is out of control.

Unions...UNIONS. Don't get me started, I'll just mention that in LA unions supported a $15 minimum wage, then wanted an exemption. Talk about looking out for your workers. Unions aren't the solution, we just flat out need to make american workers more productive, not try to just protect them.

rant over

[Pokesan]

what's a special interest group. i always hear about how bad they are but never more than that. who should we eat?

[Lune]

I think what has started us down this road is unrealistic expectations...everyone thinks they have a god given right to go to college, buy a house, have a cushy job, get 6 weeks vacation every year, a company that pays your retirement...the american dream right? But how many people actually know what it takes to get there... what have we really done as a nation to make this sort of thing a reality for most people?

We try to subsidize higher education by making it easy to get student loans (that would be cheaper than normal) and what happens? Tuition prices go up every year, and this makes sense now that most high school graduates can get into some kind of college. What they don't realize is that education isn't necessarily going to get them a whole lot, and half the population that goes to college gets saddled with debt for a degree they didn't need, or that they didn't even earn because they failed out. Instead of making it easier to get student loans, they should make it more difficult: prove to the lender that not only are you a great candidate, but that you actually have intentions of doing something with your degree. I actually think a state run university system that was fully paid for would be better than the subsidies we have. We could focus more on vocational or technical two year universities, make unemployed go to mandatory classes on job searching or career building that are actually useful...do something to make the american worker more productive, not just blame rich people for being rich.

Same with healthcare...I could potentially be behind a state run healthcare system, but the way it is now is a joke, and no this is not a rail against obamacare. It started decades ago when they made medical benefits non taxable (essentially a subsidy.) The result is expected: a higher demand for an artificially low priced item (for some at least.)

Defense spending: Do I really need to explain why we don't need to spend as much on defense as the next 14 highest countries combined? (Or whatever the number is.) But good luck getting a defense budget slashed, I live near DC and half my friends either work for the DOD or some defense contractor. And remind me, is it republocrats or demuplicans who support a smaller defense budget...I forget.

Politics: How much money is wasted every year on electing people who promise all this crap, but really the only difference is what special interest groups have them in their pocket: yes there are some politicians who aren't like that (maybe?) Aren't contributions to a political party tax deductible? It's no wonder political spending is out of control.

Unions...UNIONS. Don't get me started, I'll just mention that in LA unions supported a $15 minimum wage, then wanted an exemption. Talk about looking out for your workers. Unions aren't the solution, we just flat out need to make american workers more productive, not try to just protect them.

rant over

^ I agree. A lot of this hunger for loans is driven by the desire for Americans to have massive, brand new homes that are far beyond the reasonable ability to pay. Students spending oodles of money on college when maybe they shouldn't have even gone in the first place, or should have gone to community college etc. Lots of truth in this post.

You also have to realize productivity isn't the problem. US workers are insanely productive, probably the most productive in the developed world. Productivity has increased over the last decade while wages have decreased. Also, as I stated, many of our unions are corrupt and ineffective. That isn't a failing with the entire concept of unions, just like a single corporation being corrupt and malevolent isn't damning of the entire concept of corporations as a whole. A corporation can be socially responsible just like a union can be. The problem is, unions have become such a fringe concept and have become so detached from our culture that we have trouble running them properly.

Look at how our employment culture has become. People look at jobs like they are a favor instead of a bilateral between employer and employee. The idea that "Oh man I'm lucky to have this job, oh thank you boss, anything boss. You want to fire my coworker and give me all his responsibilities without a commensurate increase in pay? Okay, sure, I'm just glad to have this job" is a poisonous, very real, and very pervasive attitude in the current market. And it's something that needs to end in order for labor to make any progress. Much of the trend of corporate profits increasing while wages remain stagnant is rooted here, in the spinelessness of the American worker. Organized labor, when used with reason and restraint, is a tool to give the employee the power to resist unreasonable demands.

[Raev]

The rules of 'fairness' and the 'free market' dictate that everything that is happening right now is okay . . . . Yep, you've found one way in which financial institutions use non free-market mechanisms to make money.
I think we can both agree that the elites on their government <-> big business carousel are the problem here. So how is this an indictment of the nonexistent free market and not our political system?

Premise 2: The free market has no mechanism to prevent wealth from becoming concentrated in the hands of the most successful individuals or organizations.
This is just wrong, for two reasons. First, capital needs land and labor to be effective. Warren Buffet's 50 billion can't grow unless he hires other people to run the trains, design the new products, and so on. Second, capitalism involves wealth creation. This isn't the Feudal era where land was the only resource and to get rich you either had to steal it or inherit it. When you found a successful company, you make money, possibly a lot of money, and there is nothing the established elite can do to stop you. And new companies often involve a lot of creative destruction (think Kodak, Blackberry, etc).

I remember being taught in school about how the New Deal lifted us out of the depression. And yet, the Great Depression lasted for 7 years after the New Deal began. That is what I call failure. On the other hand, free market policies stopped the Great Depression of the 1920s in its tracks and lead to renewed prosperity.

Socialistic governments with 'strong labor' are in fact disasters all over the place: Southern Europe has youth unemployment of 40%. Venezuela is a disaster where you can't buy a pack of sardines and a taxi ride to the beach requires 100$ US at the current exchange rate. Denmark is in the midst of a massive housing bubble (Copenhagen housing prices have increased 50% over the past 3 years due to NIRP). Germany is about to take on 1 million Syrian immigrants. I'm sure that will work out well for them.

[Raev]

But how many people actually know what it takes to get there... what have we really done as a nation to make this sort of thing a reality for most people?

IMHO the vast majority of our problems are due to

the various central banks of the world totally distorting the price signals of the market, leading to capital misallocation (oil wells in North Dakota, houses in SF, etc) multiculturalism and it's derogation of work and productivity as privilege
outrageous divorce and child support laws that are leading us down the road to Idiocracy

[Lune]

I think we can both agree that the elites on their government <-> big business carousel are the problem here. So how is this an indictment of the nonexistent free market and not our political system?

Because we're standing at a crossroads. Some people believe the way to get out of this mess is a shift toward more free market policies, and others believe it is by a shift toward more socialist policies. And my argument is that the free market has no mechanism for redistribution.

This is just wrong, for two reasons. First, capital needs land and labor to be effective. Warren Buffet's 50 billion can't grow unless he hires other people to run the trains, design the new products, and so on. Second, capitalism involves wealth creation. This isn't the Feudal era where land was the only resource and to get rich you either had to steal it or inherit it. When you found a successful company, you make money, possibly a lot of money, and there is nothing the established elite can do to stop you. And new companies often involve a lot of creative destruction (think Kodak, Blackberry, etc).

In no way does this refute premise #2. It doesn't matter how many people Warren Buffett hires when the wider labor market and culture dictates that Warren profits disproportionately more from their labor than they do. For every enterprise run by Warren, both his share of newly generated wealth and aggregate existing wealth increases faster than the people he hires.

When Mark Zuckerberg founded Facebook, the first people to profit were a small cabal of founders and his investors. A small group of people were elevated into the elite, the investors reaped tremendous profits, and nothing of value happened for the middle class except maybe a slight bump in their stock portfolios.

What I'm getting at is this: If you have $10,000,000, it is far easier to make another $100,000 than if you have $10,000. Yes, in the process of making another $100,000, economic growth will ensue, jobs will be created, etc etc. So what? Economic growth isn't our issue, economic opportunity is. Rich people are doing fine, poor people aren't. How can the free market address that?

Socialistic governments with 'strong labor' are in fact disasters all over the place: Southern Europe has youth unemployment of 40%. Venezuela is a disaster where you can't buy a pack of sardines and a taxi ride to the beach requires 100$ US at the current exchange rate. Denmark is in the midst of a massive housing bubble (Copenhagen housing prices have increased 50% over the past 3 years due to NIRP). Germany is about to take on 1 million Syrian immigrants. I'm sure that will work out well for them.

Aside from examples of Southern Europe and South America where the culture and economy can't support a socialist system, all I see is you citing imperfections. So what if Denmark has a housing bubble? So did we. And at the end of the day, Danes will still live in a society where if you work a full time job you are almost guaranteed to not drown in squalor. German refugees are an issue with their political policies, not their economic state. It's not really related to a discussion on the merits of free market vs. socialism when you have German politicians selling out their own country to immigrants and throwing away a beautiful system. That's a problem with multiculturalism, not socialism.

I want you to know we don't disagree as much as you seem to think we do. It's not like I believe the free market is totally evil or that it's even a dichotomy between pure free market vs. pure socialism. Like most issues, the ideal position is a middle ground. What I'm really arguing here is that the middle and lower classes need to be subsidized, not taxed (mainly in response to Orruar and Irunedyourday's discussion), and I think we both agree that's accomplished first and foremost by liberating our political system.

[iruinedyourday]

Socialistic governments with 'strong labor' are in fact disasters all over the place: Southern Europe has youth unemployment of 40%. Venezuela is a disaster where you can't buy a pack of sardines and a taxi ride to the beach requires 100$ US at the current exchange rate. Denmark is in the midst of a massive housing bubble (Copenhagen housing prices have increased 50% over the past 3 years due to NIRP). Germany is about to take on 1 million Syrian immigrants. I'm sure that will work out well for them.

Yea bout you are just comparing countries that have corrupt governments. If you look at nations that have good governments the socialist movements there flourish, the economy booms and the people are happy.

its like looking at a homeless person, who also happens to disagree with you, and then saying that he's homeless because he disagree's with you.

As far as Denmark, the results of that bubble will yet to be seen. If you think that Denmark is unique form all problems because its got the 3rd happiest people on earth (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/24/world-happiness-report-ranks-worlds-happiest-countries-of-2015) you're making a slight exaggeration. Denmark isn't perfect, but its a perfect example of what socialism can do for the overall society.

As far as Germany, whether they were socialists capitalists or pretty much anything but fascists, the influx of immigrants from the crisis in Syria would still happen. So again, you cant use that as an example about why socialism is bad

In fact, you haven't shared one example of socialism being the central cause of any one problem (and Im not talking about communism). However you have shared many reasons why a free market driven political system has been the central cause of problems here in the USA.

So its pretty clear that one of these systems is a disaster, while the other one isn't.

Hell we've given 30+ years to republicans, Id say its time that we admit that conservative policies just don't make a country better off than progressive ones. There is just too much ideology in conservative policies.

[Lurikeen]

Side note, nothing that bernie sanders will do, unless you are making over 250k a year will affect you besides providing you with a better quality of life.

I was happily wasting time while waiting for a boat ride and I ran across your comment. Just exactly how is Bernie Sanders going to provide anyone (other than himself should he win the presidency) "with a better quality of life?" Please be specific, give concrete examples.

As a matter of full disclosure, I don't think ANY president can provide a "better quality of life." Such a statement is so subjective as to be meaningless. Mother Theresa thought she had a great quality of life while Bill Gates may think she lived in squalor.

Keep in mind that Obama promised "Hope and Change" and all I have ever seen out of that is more "change" going to the IRS and a health care system with increasingly high costs.

I look forward to the specifics you can provide to support your claim about Sanders.

[Raev]

Aside from examples of Southern Europe and South America where the culture and economy can't support a socialist system

Yea bout you are just comparing countries that have corrupt governments. If you look at nations that have good governments the socialist movements there flourish, the economy booms and the people are happy.

I read this and I just don't know what to say. Are you guys really incapable of seeing the gaping logical flaws here? "Socialism is good! Capitalism is bad! Oh, you tried socialism and it didn't work? Well Socialism is Good, therefore YOU are the problem." Logically, Northern Europeans are happy in spite of their Socialist governments, not because of them. Meanwhile, free market economies work anywhere: Chile in South America, Hong Kong and Singapore in Asia, Switzerland in Europe, etc.

[ronasch]

what's a special interest group. i always hear about how bad they are but never more than that. who should we eat?

Let's start with the enviro nazi's the Sierra Club. Who have given Demoncrats millions of dollars in campaign contributions to promote Global Scamming, I mean warming

[iruinedyourday]

I was happily wasting time while waiting for a boat ride and I ran across your comment. Just exactly how is Bernie Sanders going to provide anyone (other than himself should he win the presidency) "with a better quality of life?" Please be specific, give concrete examples.

As a matter of full disclosure, I don't think ANY president can provide a "better quality of life." Such a statement is so subjective as to be meaningless. Mother Theresa thought she had a great quality of life while Bill Gates may think she lived in squalor.

Keep in mind that Obama promised "Hope and Change" and all I have ever seen out of that is more "change" going to the IRS and a health care system with increasingly high costs.

I look forward to the specifics you can provide to support your claim about Sanders.

Sure, first of all hope and change was a movement, that I might add we did not elect into office. Obama inspired the movement. If anyone that was a part of that movement, thought that electing Obama meant: with a snap of our fingers, yay we won hope and change! Yay new everything out of nowhere! huzzuh! Now its done we can go back to eating Doritos and not giving a crap about anything! well then they were wrong. And if anyone thought that was the point of the movement? they are wrong too. Hope and change is something we have to keep fighting for, and hopefully, we will keep fighting for. You don't elect ideals into the white house. If anyone on either side thought thats what hope and change meant, then they were just flat out wrong.

Now for quality of life. With a better economy, more jobs, healthcare, great working conditions, time off for family leave, time off for vacation, higher wages, and policies that will push for mandates for all of this? that is how Bernie Sanders, focusing all of his term on fixing our broken economy, can make for a better quality of life for the people that live here in the USA.

There is A LOT of influence that the president and his office can do to affect, and DOES affect your quality of life. It is the central issue that drives the governments of most developed nations.. not the nation that spends more on military than the next 14 countries combined mind you, but MOST countries.

and absolutly yes, quality of life is subjective... but there are ways you can objectively measure it: http://theweek.com/articles/463919/how-measure-countrys-happiness

[Lurikeen]

It's not like I believe the free market is totally evil or that it's even a dichotomy between pure free market vs. pure socialism. Like most issues, the ideal position is a middle ground. What I'm really arguing here is that the middle and lower classes need to be subsidized, not taxed (mainly in response to Orruar and Irunedyourday's discussion), and I think we both agree that's accomplished first and foremost by liberating our political system.

The question is what methods do you want government to use to "subsidize" the lower classes? You say that we need to "first and foremost" liberate our political system, but what does that mean? Bloody revolution? Coupe d'etat? A strong centralized government forcing wealth redistribution?

[iruinedyourday]

I read this and I just don't know what to say. Are you guys really incapable of seeing the gaping logical flaws here? "Socialism is good! Capitalism is bad! Oh, you tried socialism and it didn't work? Well Socialism is Good, therefore YOU are the problem." Logically, Northern Europeans are happy in spite of their Socialist governments, not because of them. Meanwhile, free market economies work anywhere: Chile in South America, Hong Kong and Singapore in Asia, Switzerland in Europe, etc.

heh look lets just put it this way... the free market system is NOT working in America.. we need to try something else. Bernie is going to offer something else

Sure trump is too, but Im not sure Im ok with blaming a swath of people based off of their nationality as the sometime else I am looking for.

[Big_Japan]

Keep in mind that Obama promised "Hope and Change" and all I have ever seen out of that is more "change" going to the IRS and a health care system with increasingly high costs.

I look forward to the specifics you can provide to support your claim about Sanders.

Well, we've Changed to not requiring due process of the law to murder American citizens, people roughly of said citizen's height and hair color, and any children who may be in their 70 foot radius with highly lethal electronically hijackable toy RC planes, and we can still Hope a meteor falls on the Senate the next time the President appears there. I wouldn't say it was the most untruthful campaign slogan ever.

[iruinedyourday]

Interesting that BigJ was able to put two things you both blame obama for in one post, but were effects of the republican controlled senate.

yikes

[Big_Japan]

Interesting that BigJ was able to put two things you both blame obama for in one post, but were effects of the republican controlled senate.

yikes

what two things

we live in a 1-party state. you seem to be confused about this

[Lurikeen]

Now for quality of life. With a better economy, more jobs, healthcare, great working conditions, time off for family leave, time off for vacation, higher wages, and policies that will push for mandates for all of this? that is how Bernie Sanders, focusing all of his term on fixing our broken economy, can make for a better quality of life for the people that live here in the USA.

There is A LOT of influence that the president and his office can do to affect, and DOES affect your quality of life. It is the central issue that drives the governments of most developed nations.. not the nation that spends more on military than the next 14 countries combined mind you, but MOST countries.

Leaving the "hope and change" rationale you gave aside for the moment, I want to point out that I am asking for concrete examples of what Sanders will do to come through on your claim. I am not wanting to be snarky, but you have given the same list concerning "quality of life" that every single presidential candidate spouts off in their sleep. Not a SINGLE one presents a specific plan as to how they are going to accomplish such great things. There is a vast difference between saying "I am going to fix health care" and "This is how I am going to fix health care, x... y... z." HUGE difference.

Also I get what you are trying to say about our spending on military, but the USA does have obligations to the world, being a superpower and all. We are the spine of NATO. I mean no offense to those reading this who live in Europe, but the days are long gone that England, Spain, or France can muster a military might that will protect Europe, Britain, and Canada. If you have a better plan as to how we can keep our security obligations in those countries (including Japan and South Korea) without retreating from the world, then by all means spell it out. Until then, I submit that you're just repeating a "party line" equivalent to the other's side "we need a stronger military."

[Lune]

I read this and I just don't know what to say. Are you guys really incapable of seeing the gaping logical flaws here? "Socialism is good! Capitalism is bad! Oh, you tried socialism and it didn't work? Well Socialism is Good, therefore YOU are the problem." Logically, Northern Europeans are happy in spite of their Socialist governments, not because of them. Meanwhile, free market economies work anywhere: Chile in South America, Hong Kong and Singapore in Asia, Switzerland in Europe, etc.

You're creating logical flaws by oversimplifying what I'm saying. You really see this as being the result of capitalism or socialism being so simplistically good or bad and not as a result of culture?

You would agree representative democracy is a pretty good system, yes? Well democracy only works in societies where the culture permits it. It requires a sufficient amount of respect for the rule of law, education, empathy, and a sense of civic responsibility in order to work properly.

So do we take the fact that healthy democracy refuses to take root in Africa or Middle East as evidence that democracy sucks? No. Likewise, socialism requires certain cultural attributes in order to function properly. I'm saying I wish our culture was different just as much as I'm saying I wish certain aspects of our system would be more socialist. For example, I wish Americans weren't so fucking selfish and individualistic, and honestly it's those values I take issue with more than some stupidly simplified abstraction of "free market" or "capitalism".

[Lune]

Interesting that BigJ was able to put two things you both blame obama for in one post, but were effects of the republican controlled senate.

yikes

I've never once unhid a Big J post and not regretted it, so I've just stopped unhiding them. If I wanted to browse 4chan I'd go to 4chan. Dude has nothing even slightly insightful or interesting to say.

[iruinedyourday]

Leaving the "hope and change" rationale you gave aside for the moment, I want to point out that I am asking for concrete examples of what Sanders will do to come through on your claim. I am not wanting to be snarky, but you have given the same list concerning "quality of life" that every single presidential candidate spouts off in their sleep. Not a SINGLE one presents a specific plan as to how they are going to accomplish such great things. There is a vast difference between saying "I am going to fix health care" and "This is how I am going to fix health care, x... y... z." HUGE difference.

Also I get what you are trying to say about our spending on military, but the USA does have obligations to the world, being a superpower and all. We are the spine of NATO. I mean no offense to those reading this who live in Europe, but the days are long gone that England, Spain, or France can muster a military might that will protect Europe, Britain, and Canada. If you have a better plan as to how we can keep our security obligations in those countries (including Japan and South Korea) without retreating from the world, then by all means spell it out. Until then, I submit that you're just repeating a "party line" equivalent to the other's side "we need a stronger military."

I will try, but naturally on some of these issues you may have an alternate stance on them. So Ill try to give you some examples that you can make your own decisions about rather than force feed you why I think they are important.

But to understand where my thoughts are at least coming from, it's that its time we put a long multi-decade investment in progressive ideals the way we did conservative ones in this nation, to see what hope and change can give us if we give it the time that it needs to actually make a change.

Here is some Bernie bullet points:

Comprehensive 12-step agenda for moving America forward. (Jan 2015) (http://www.sanders.senate.gov/agenda/)
Voted YES on $192B additional anti-recession stimulus spending. (Jul 2009)
Voted YES on modifying bankruptcy rules to avoid mortgage foreclosures. (May 2009)
Voted YES on additional $825 billion for economic recovery package. (Feb 2009)
Voted YES on $60B stimulus package for jobs, infrastructure, & energy. (Sep 2008)
Voted NO on paying down federal debt by rating programs' effectiveness. (Mar 2007)
Voted NO on restricting bankruptcy rules. (Jan 2004)
More enforcement of mortgage fraud and TARP fraud. (May 2009)
Ban abusive credit practices & enhance consumer disclosure. (Feb 2009)

Bernie Sanders on Corperate Reform. (http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Bernie_Sanders_Corporations.htm)

Bernie Sanders on Education Reform (http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Bernie_Sanders_Education.htm)

I dont want to tell you why any of this may or may not work, other than I have watched bernie for the last few years and have been very impressed with his passion and intelegnece, the way he fights for his ideals and how his belifes are what drive him, not influence by outside doners.

his constituents, unlike all the other candidates are the people.

[Lune]

The question is what methods do you want government to use to "subsidize" the lower classes? You say that we need to "first and foremost" liberate our political system, but what does that mean? Bloody revolution? Coupe d'etat? A strong centralized government forcing wealth redistribution?

Liberating our political system: Campaign finance reform to publicly funded election campaigns, likely requiring a constitutional amendment. Also gerrymandering needs to be addressed.

Subsidizing lower classes: Labor laws that prohibit the abuse of part time and low-wage workers, increased infrastructure and decreased defense spending 1:1 ratio by the creation of an additional branch of the military that allows public service oriented toward domestic affairs such as infrastructure, civil service, etc. Young people often join the military for personal development, money, benefits, and economic opportunity. Rather than funneling their activity and funding into pointless work in Iraq and Afghanistan, it should be funneled into serving the United States public.

I'm not going to waste time explaining why the geopolitical of reality of today does not necessitate a conventional cold-war style military machine, that's a discussion for a while nother thread.

[Big_Japan]

I've never once unhid a Big J post and not regretted it, so I've just stopped unhiding them. If I wanted to browse 4chan I'd go to 4chan. Dude has nothing even slightly insightful or interesting to say.

Nothing feels better (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eraV5drw_EQ)

[Lurikeen]

I dont want to tell you why any of this may or may not work, other than I have watched bernie for the last few years and have been very impressed with his passion and intelegnece, the way he fights for his ideals and how his belifes are what drive him, not influence by outside doners.

his constituents, unlike all the other candidates are the people.

I respect that you "don't want to tell [me] why any of this may or may not work." You are correct that we are not going to agree. Although, I appreciate when people try to back up claims with some facts.

[Lurikeen]

Liberating our political system: Campaign finance reform to publicly funded election campaigns, likely requiring a constitutional amendment. Also gerrymandering needs to be addressed.

OK. I can go with you here. However, we both know that ain't gonna happen. It would cost our politicians too much power.

Subsidizing lower classes: Labor laws that prohibit the abuse of part time and low-wage workers, increased infrastructure and decreased defense spending 1:1 ratio by the creation of an additional branch of the military that allows public service oriented toward domestic affairs such as infrastructure, civil service, etc. Young people often join the military for personal development, money, benefits, and economic opportunity. Rather than funneling their activity and funding into pointless work in Iraq and Afghanistan, it should be funneled into serving the United States public.

You do realize that we have AmeriCorp (http://www.nationalservice.gov/programs/americorps) which is a civilian program designed to help inner cities and public works? It's a two year government paid program that college grads can use.

Please see my comments above concerning the military.



I'm not going to waste time explaining why the geopolitical of reality of today does not necessitate a conventional cold-war style military machine, that's a discussion for a while nother thread.

To each his own.

[ronasch]

I will try, but naturally on some of these issues you may have an alternate stance on them. So Ill try to give you some examples that you can make your own decisions about rather than force feed you why I think they are important.

But to understand where my thoughts are at least coming from, it's that its time we put a long multi-decade investment in progressive ideals the way we did conservative ones in this nation, to see what hope and change can give us if we give it the time that it needs to actually make a change.

Here is some Bernie bullet points:

Comprehensive 12-step agenda for moving America forward. (Jan 2015) (http://www.sanders.senate.gov/agenda/)
Voted YES on $192B additional anti-recession stimulus spending. (Jul 2009)
Voted YES on modifying bankruptcy rules to avoid mortgage foreclosures. (May 2009)
Voted YES on additional $825 billion for economic recovery package. (Feb 2009)
Voted YES on $60B stimulus package for jobs, infrastructure, & energy. (Sep 2008)
Voted NO on paying down federal debt by rating programs' effectiveness. (Mar 2007)
Voted NO on restricting bankruptcy rules. (Jan 2004)
More enforcement of mortgage fraud and TARP fraud. (May 2009)
Ban abusive credit practices & enhance consumer disclosure. (Feb 2009)

Bernie Sanders on Corperate Reform. (http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Bernie_Sanders_Corporations.htm)

Bernie Sanders on Education Reform (http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Bernie_Sanders_Education.htm)

I dont want to tell you why any of this may or may not work, other than I have watched bernie for the last few years and have been very impressed with his passion and intelegnece, the way he fights for his ideals and how his belifes are what drive him, not influence by outside doners.

his constituents, unlike all the other candidates are the people.

All those billions in stimulus really help lol. A++ for spelling too.

So you think stopping foreclosures would be a good thing? If you want to see the middle class never get loans again for homes push that one thru. Not to mention the job loss that will result from no banks lending $$$ for new construction.

[Big_Japan]

big Bernie is all about dat "Corperate" reform. also printing money and giving it to those "Corper"ations

[iruinedyourday]

Luri, I just like to poll people (especially conservatives) because Berrnie Sanders is a candidate that is a lot less one sided than say, Hillary is. What are the odds or what would it take for you to throw your vote his way come November?

IMO he is totality a candidate that even die hard conservatives can get behind, he hates big big money, and wants to make jobs jobs jobs a priority, and even on some socially conservative hot button issues like gun control a lot of dems think he is too partisan. so he really shouldn't be too much of a stretch for conservative voters, and I know he polls better and better in red counties.

But anyway enough of that, I'm just curious are you on the fence? are you a lock for a no or for someone else?

Thanks!

[Raev]

You're creating logical flaws by oversimplifying what I'm saying. You really see this as being the result of capitalism or socialism being so simplistically good or bad and not as a result of culture?
Capitalism is an economic system which uses prices to calculate whether or not a particular activity produces positive utility, i.e. is profitable. The only requirement is a commitment to the system (no corrupt government, no violence).

What you fail to understand is that a free market gives you what you want. If your goal is making sure your neighbors have health care despite losing their jobs, you can contribute to a charity. If your goal is an iPhone 6, that works too.

I wish Americans weren't so fucking selfish and individualistic
Yup, this is Socialism 101. You know what's best for everyone. If you are so enamored of European Socialism, why don't you move there? I am not trolling here, either. Workpermit.com suggests "Denmark is one of the European Union's most active members in trying to recruit skilled workers from around the world." Euros all speak English well, and after 5-10 years you'll know Danish and be able to naturalize.

[Daldaen]

Capitalism is an economic system which uses prices to calculate whether or not a particular activity produces positive utility, i.e. is profitable. The only requirement is a commitment to the system (no corrupt government, no violence).

What you fail to understand is that a free market gives you what you want. If your goal is making sure your neighbors have health care despite losing their jobs, you can contribute to a charity. If your goal is an iPhone 6, that works too.


Yup, this is Socialism 101. You know what's best for everyone. If you are so enamored of European Socialism, why don't you move there? I am not trolling here, either. Workpermit.com suggests "Denmark is one of the European Union's most active members in trying to recruit skilled workers from around the world." Euros all speak English well, and after 5-10 years you'll know Danish and be able to naturalize.

How will he then FTE Scout Charissa or Noble Dojorn with that horrible Euro ping though?

[Lune]

Capitalism is an economic system which uses prices to calculate whether or not a particular activity produces positive utility, i.e. is profitable. The only requirement is a commitment to the system (no corrupt government, no violence).

What you fail to understand is that a free market gives you what you want. If your goal is making sure your neighbors have health care despite losing their jobs, you can contribute to a charity. If your goal is an iPhone 6, that works too.

Go back to college and pay attention this time when you read Hobbes and Locke.

Yup, this is Socialism 101. You know what's best for everyone. If you are so enamored of European Socialism, why don't you move there? I am not trolling here, either. Workpermit.com suggests "Denmark is one of the European Union's most active members in trying to recruit skilled workers from around the world." Euros all speak English well, and after 5-10 years you'll know Danish and be able to naturalize.

I can't imagine why someone who loves their country would want what they perceive to be best for it. I could just as easily say that you, by promoting the free market, claim know what's best for me. Don't be disingenuous.

I love the United States for other reasons and have no desire to emigrate to a culture that is foreign to me. I'd always be an outsider in Denmark etc and I'm pretty sure it would just be too different to be worth the upheaval. Also, I come from a wealthy family, am educated, am entering an excellent career, and don't need the opportunity that is present in Denmark and missing here. I believe in socialism for ideological reasons not personal ones.

I do however want to eventually emigrate to Canada once I finish my doctorate.

[iruinedyourday]

Capitalism is an economic system which uses prices to calculate whether or not a particular activity produces positive utility, i.e. is profitable. The only requirement is a commitment to the system (no corrupt government, no violence).


This is exactly why conservitive ideals in economic policies just don't work.

It requires ideology for it to function. This belief that businesses will make moral choices and if a corporation does something wrong, people will be able to vote with their wallets. This has proven to be totally false. The larger a business is is the more powerful it becomes the less it needs to give a shit about anyone and still grows.

In fact what we have learned is the less you do to make your corporation 'moral' the more profitable it is.

We just don't live in a world where people will take care of each other and do the right thing, when time and time again, we've proven that (outside of government) doing the wrong thing is what makes money.

Which is where more social programs come in, we need to help the little guy, so he can have dollars to buy shit so people in the middle can sell them stuff and they can buy more shit so people on top can manufacture cool things for them to spend thier money on.

its like a trickle UP system.

and any good business man knows the more people in a demographic that can afford to buy your product, the more of your product you are going to sell.

So why not make sure everyone has a little something to buy stuff with?

And while we're at it, why not make sure they are happy too :)

[Raev]

I could just as easily say that you, by promoting the free market, claim to know what's best for me.
No, you could not. By voting for a socialist government, you are attempting to use the power of the state to coerce me and the rest of the country into supporting your agenda. By voting for the free market, I am attempting to allow you to do whatever you please.

Go back to college and pay attention this time when you read Hobbes and Locke.
Since you have nothing but ad hominems left, I'm going to call it a day.

[Patriam1066]

https://www.boundless.com/u-s-history/textbooks/boundless-u-s-history-textbook/democracy-in-america-1815-1840-12/economic-nationalism-104/protective-tariffs-562-9448/

In his "Report on Manufactures," Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton proposed a far-reaching plan to use protective tariffs as a lever for rapid industrialization. The industrial age was just starting, and the United States had little or no textile industry, which was the keystone of early industrial societies. The British government tried to maintain their near monopoly on cheap and efficient textile manufacturing by prohibiting the export of textile machines, machine models, or the emigration of people familiar with these machines. Cloth in the early United States was nearly all hand made, which was a time consuming and expensive process, whereas the new textile manufacturing techniques in Britain were often over 30 times cheaper. Hamilton believed that a stiff tariff on imports would not only raise income but "protect" and help subsidize early efforts at setting up manufacturing facilities that could compete with British products.

The high protectionist tariffs Hamilton originally called for were not adopted until after the War of 1812, when nationalists like Henry Clay and John C. Calhoun saw the need for more federal income and industry. In wartime, they declared, having a home industry was a necessity to avoid shortages. Likewise, owners of the small new factories that were springing up in the northeast to mass produce boots, hats, candles, nails, and other common items wanted higher tariffs that would significantly protect them for a time from more efficient British producers. When the Act was passed, it included a provision that allowed for a 10% discount on all items imported on American ships. This was done to ensure that American merchant marines would not financially suffer.

Bring back tariffs, crush monopolies, and end immigration entirely. The government doesn't need to redistribute income, it simply needs to work for the American laborer like it did in the past.

[iruinedyourday]

https://www.boundless.com/u-s-history/textbooks/boundless-u-s-history-textbook/democracy-in-america-1815-1840-12/economic-nationalism-104/protective-tariffs-562-9448/



Bring back tariffs, crush monopolies, and end immigration entirely. The government doesn't need to redistribute income, it simply needs to work for the American laborer like it did in the past.

I'm with you on everything but the immigration. I also dont think that those first 2 are reliant on immigration.

I think we can do it all with Sanders.

[iruinedyourday]

Cat 5 hurricane materialized out of a storm in less than 24 hours, maybe the weather should be a top priority for national security. Yikes!

https://www.reddit.com/live/vsowstyv3er1

Get ready for our own version of the Syrian migration.

:(

[Lune]

No, you could not. By voting for a socialist government, you are attempting to use the power of the state to coerce me and the rest of the country into supporting your agenda. By voting for the free market, I am attempting to allow you to do whatever you please.

By voting for a free market, you're attempting to use the power of the state to coerce me and the rest of the country into living in a free market economy. It's the same damn thing. We're both voting to change the system at the expense of the other person's preferred ideology. The fact that you believe in some Jeffersonian fantasy of the free market where you sit on your plantation and big gubment can't give your money to blacks is inconsequential.

I bet you even believe tort law works to protect the environment in a free market system.

See, I can't 'do whatever I please' in a post-apocalyptic madhouse where all healthcare and education are totally for profit, the environment is all fucked up, humanity moved backwards, and greed won out over brotherhood. That's averse to the core of being. The only thing I'd want to do is leave.

[ronasch]

You lefties cry so much about higher wages but you constantly support illegal/legal immigration that floods this country with people who will work for less $$$. Thus driving wages lower, and making those "hated corporations" richer. The Liberal Elite only support immigration because it's another impoverished voting block they can exploit to gain political power.

[AzzarTheGod]

See, I can't 'do whatever I please' in a post-apocalyptic madhouse where all healthcare and education are totally for profit, the environment is all fucked up, humanity moved backwards, and greed won out over brotherhood. That's averse to the core of being. The only thing I'd want to do is leave.

Let supply and demand balance out the market they said.

Let college tuition, healthcare and big pharma work itself out they said.

Its capitalism they said, it'll work itself out they said. It isn't creating an oligarchy they said.

Supply and demand they said.

No thanks, I've seen enough and the progress is stagnant. Let's wait 1,000 years to see if it "works itself out" through free market with an even freer market isn't rational.

We know where 50 years has taken us and its simply the wrong direction. People are losing opportunity for basic standards of living in 2015+. Time to hit the brakes. Reverse!

[Lune]

You lefties cry so much about higher wages but you constantly support illegal/legal immigration that floods this country with people who will work for less $$$. Thus driving wages lower, and making those "hated corporations" richer. The Liberal Elite only support immigration because it's another impoverished voting block they can exploit to gain political power.

That's true, but it's not a phenomenon that's unique to the left. Your typical redneck slob hates immigrants, but the Republicans he votes for will never do anything of substance to stop immigration precisely because of business interests. So we're pretty much fucked either way.

[iruinedyourday]

You lefties cry so much about higher wages but you constantly support illegal/legal immigration that floods this country with people who will work for less $$$. Thus driving wages lower, and making those "hated corporations" richer. The Liberal Elite only support immigration because it's another impoverished voting block they can exploit to gain political power.

that's why my pal, I rely on LAW to set the standard for how little people can be payed, not 'ideology' that results in people just paying employee's as little as possible.

[Ranndom]

Cat 5 hurricane materialized out of a storm in less than 24 hours, maybe the weather should be a top priority for national security. Yikes!

https://www.reddit.com/live/vsowstyv3er1

Get ready for our own version of the Syrian migration.

:(

If whats happening in eastern countries atm came here it would be bloodshed. And a whole lot of it.
Also, isnt your nutcase Bernie claiming the greatest security threat we face is global warming? That dude is months away from dementia i swear

[sOurDieSel]

Both capitalism and socialism adhere to the cultural marxist ideology of multiculturalism which encourages massive 3rd world immigration causing both systems to fail--by deflating wages and draining public coffers for social services

[ronasch]

that's why my pal, I rely on LAW to set the standard for how little people can be payed, not 'ideology' that results in people just paying employee's as little as possible.

Problem with LAW is that it creates $$$ owed instead of $$$ earned. So to offset $$$ owed companies 1 Layoff 2. Raise Prices 3. Go out of business 4. Both 1 and 2

I know companies shouldn't do those things it "morally" wrong. This is a common misconception Liberals believe they can change. Like gravity unless you change the laws of physics it's not going to happen. As for the morally wrong question, is it not just as morally wrong to force a business owner to pay more to his employees then what was agreed upon per hire? Is this private business no longer "private" but an entity of the state?

I contract for a major power company in IL. This company last year had to layoff over 300 union employees because the EPA shut down 2 coal power plants in Chicago. Union jobs and union men/women who many voted democrat. Tell me who's trying to kill union labor? Neither side cares about the American worker anymore, their is no mathematical equation to bring us out of the Economic catastrophe these politicians have created. All they are trying to do now is prolong the status quo, so when Shit hits the fan they can take their riches and be "saudi kings." While the rest of us lead a life of serfdom.

You could set the minimum wage to 100/hour and that would be the new poverty line.
It's the unaccounted for dynamic you liberals can't seem to understand. You CANT control it

[iruinedyourday]

I contract for a major power company in IL. This company last year had to layoff over 300 union employees because the EPA shut down 2 coal power plants in Chicago. Union jobs and union men/women who many voted democrat. Tell me who's trying to kill union labor? Neither side cares about the American worker anymore, their is no mathematical equation to bring us out of the Economic catastrophe these politicians have created. All they are trying to do now is prolong the status quo, so when Shit hits the fan they can take their riches and be "saudi kings." While the rest of us lead a life of serfdom

Coal power, im sorry is dying and will eventually die.. Those jobs will be lost.

Another example is automatic cars will kill millions of jobs.

Some jobs go the way of the dodo bird, and you cant change that. Has happened, is happening, will happen.

Forcing us to rely on antiquated means of power so a few people can profit from it while using 300 union jobs as a straw man reason to vote to continue it and to inhibit research into other means of power & employment, is wrong.

Without a smart government then that's what you get... and sadly, that's what we HAVE here in the US, thanks to 30-40 years of republican policy.

Its time to try something different.

So that brings us to, social programs so those 300 people can survive until there is more work available? what do you have against that? Why do you think that is wrong?

[ronasch]

“It is much better to enact a minimum-wage law even if it deprives these unfortunates of work… better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift, enabling them to bring forth more of their kind.”

Royal Meeker

Invented the minimum wage

[iruinedyourday]

Neither side cares about the American worker anymore

Im putting this into its own post, because there is ONE PERSON who outright DOES care for the american worker, and if you dont think he does you're mistaken.

That man is Bernie Sanders.

[Lurikeen]

Luri, I just like to poll people (especially conservatives) because Berrnie Sanders is a candidate that is a lot less one sided than say, Hillary is. What are the odds or what would it take for you to throw your vote his way come November?

IMO he is totality a candidate that even die hard conservatives can get behind, he hates big big money, and wants to make jobs jobs jobs a priority, and even on some socially conservative hot button issues like gun control a lot of dems think he is too partisan. so he really shouldn't be too much of a stretch for conservative voters, and I know he polls better and better in red counties.

But anyway enough of that, I'm just curious are you on the fence? are you a lock for a no or for someone else?

Thanks!

Good questions.

I will not vote for Sanders because he is a socialist. Classical socialism advocates for a system where the government owns the means of production for a country and then distributes the wealth to each citizen. Anyone who knows anything about the U.S. constitution understands that the right to private property is central to our democracy. Does someone want to live in a socialist democratic state? That isn't the USA. If you want to live in the USA then you have to understand that we aren't classical socialists by definition. Sadly, FDR introduced the welfare state to America and things have only managed to get worse where government is concerned, not better.

So, I will not vote for Sanders out of principle. I don't vote socialist, ever!

Secondly, I don't hate big money. In fact, I LOVE big money. Big money is good for America. Bill Gates has done more in charitable giving than I will ever be able to do. Why? He has big money. He has big money because of the capitalistic freedoms he enjoys. Warren Buffet gives much to charity, too. Again, big money works for the U.S. It employs people. It creates new technologies. It creates new means for global production. The Monsanto haters can hate all they want, but we have seeds that can be grown in some pretty poor conditions that feed millions, thanks to big money and big visionaries who now have big money.

Gun control: I own several guns. If you want my guns, come and try to get them. :D I am all for background checks and I gladly submit to them every time I buy a gun. But I will be damned and dead if I will give up my weapon to someone wanting to take it from me. The constitution guarantees my liberty to own arms. I will not vote for anyone who wants to take away my constitutional right. You can understand that. You probably don't want the right wing taking away a woman's right to an abortion. They'll have to pry a cold dead fetus out of your hands before you give up that right. So, you can understand where I am coming from, perhaps.

The odds of my voting for Sanders is like the odds of rats ice skating in hell.

[iruinedyourday]

Good questions.

I will not vote for Sanders because he is a socialist. Classical socialism advocates for a system where the government owns the means of production for a country and then distributes the wealth to each citizen. Anyone who knows anything about the U.S. constitution understands that the right to private property is central to our democracy. Does someone want to live in a socialist democratic state? That isn't the USA. If you want to live in the USA then you have to understand that we aren't classical socialists by definition. Sadly, FDR introduced the welfare state to America and things have only managed to get worse where government is concerned, not better.

So, I will not vote for Sanders on the basic of principle. I don't vote socialist, ever!

Secondly, I don't hate big money. In fact, I LOVE big money. Big money is good for America. Bill Gates has done more in charitable giving than I will ever be able to do. Why? He has big money. He has big money because of the capitalistic freedoms he enjoys. Warren Buffet gives much to charity, too. Again, big money works for the U.S. It employs people. It creates new technologies. It creates new means for global production. The Monsanto haters can hate all they want, but we have seeds that can be grown in some pretty poor conditions that feed millions, thanks to big money and big visionaries who now have big money.

Gun control: I own several guns. If you want my guns, come and try to get them. :D I am all for background checks and I gladly submit to them every time I buy a gun. But I will be damned and dead if I will give up my weapon to someone wanting to take it from me. The constitution guarantees my liberty to own arms. I will not vote for anyone who wants to take away my constitutional right. You can understand that. You probably don't want the right wing taking away a woman's right to an abortion. They'll have to pry a cold dead fetus out of your hands before you give up that right. So, you can understand where I am coming from, perhaps.

The odds of my voting for Sanders is like the odds of rats ice skating in hell.

Politics are interesting, how like two people can be so sure that their totally polar opposite opinions are right hehe

well, I wish I could convince you to at least be capable of maybe swinging your vote over... what if the candidate on the repub side was like, Sara Palin, would you still not vote for sanders?

What direction is your vote going by the way? I seriously have no idea what is going to happen with the republican party this round. At this point it seems like neither do they!

Lastly, since (and please dont take this personally I mean no offence) but since your understanding of the socialism that Bernie Sanders is talking about is not quite, accurate and is pretty outdated - do you think you would able to maybe agree that better unemployment checks, better healthcare, better working environments for employee's etc might be something that we should fight for, as a population, as a right?

[ronasch]

Coal power, im sorry is dying and will eventually die.. Those jobs will be lost.

Another example is automatic cars will kill millions of jobs.

Some jobs go the way of the dodo bird, and you cant change that. Has happened, is happening, will happen.

Forcing us to rely on antiquated means of power so a few people can profit from it while using 300 union jobs as a straw man reason to vote to continue it and to inhibit research into other means of power & employment, is wrong.

Without a smart government then that's what you get... and sadly, that's what we HAVE here in the US, thanks to 30-40 years of republican policy.

Its time to try something different.

So that brings us to, social programs so those 300 people can survive until there is more work available? what do you have against that? Why do you think that is wrong?

Well giving Solindra 300 million dollars of tax payer money for them to go bankrupt a couple years later is what I have against that. And, for you to be so flippant about those 300 workers and their families is hypocritical to the "so called" compassionate ideals you so fervently express. On top of it, it's not just those 300 people it's 10s of thousands of men and women who made a good living working their asses off providing you with low cost energy every day. Solar/Wind is worthless and when the Tax Credits run out that to will die because it's inefficient. We as a company are moving to NGas and your EPA Sierra Club Nazi's have already told us they are going after that too. Coal and Oil are this country's largest natural resources and because some "special interest" HAX can put up Bullshit computer models and donate millions to democrats and squishy republicans alike were gonna turn into a 3rd world country. Jonathan Gruber was correct, the American voter is stupid.

I hope you're ready for Rolling Blackouts, because they are coming to a town near YOU

[iruinedyourday]

Well giving Solindra 300 million dollars of tax payer money for them to go bankrupt a couple years later is what I have against that. And, for you to be so flippant about those 300 workers and their families is hypocritical to the "so called" compassionate ideals you so fervently express. On top of it, it's not just those 300 people it's 10s of thousands of men and women who made a good living working their asses off providing you with low cost energy every day. Solar/Wind is worthless and when the Tax Credits run out that to will die because it's inefficient. We as a company are moving to NGas and your EPA Sierra Club Nazi's have already told us they are going after that too. Coal and Oil are this country's largest natural resources and because some "special interest" HAX can put up Bullshit computer models and donate millions to democrats and squishy republicans alike were gonna turn into a 3rd world country. Jonathan Gruber was correct, the American voter is stupid.

unfortunately the actual jobs that the coal and oil industry in america would provide is quite a bit lower than the number of jobs repairing our infrastructure would. The irony is that after all the infrastructure is complete, you could start over again, repairing the shit you repaired first, because like all things, time takes its tole and degrades the conditions of our infrastructure!

When you are all done with coal and oil, and mining the last bits that we have here, you end up with a devastated environment.

Sorry, I just dont shit where I eat.

And hey man about being flippant, that doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite or anything, it just means I'm a realist... another thing liberals are more so than conservatives. We just dont make decisions off of the way we feel things should be.. we do based off of the way they are.

[Lurikeen]

Politics are interesting, how like two people can be so sure that their totally polar opposite opinions are right hehe

well, I wish I could convince you to at least be capable of maybe swinging your vote over... what if the candidate on the repub side was like, Sara Palin, would you still not vote for sanders?

What direction is your vote going by the way? I seriously have no idea what is going to happen with the republican party this round. At this point it seems like neither do they!

Lastly, since (and please dont take this personally I mean no offence) but since your understanding of the socialism that Bernie Sanders is talking about is not quite, accurate and is pretty outdated - do you think you would able to maybe agree that better unemployment checks, better healthcare, better working environments for employee's etc might be something that we should fight for, as a population, as a right?

I am not offended by your assertion, but since one my undergraduate degrees is in Political Science, I think I have a solid grasp on what counts as socialism.

As far as where my vote is concerned, I honestly don't want to cast a vote. I am so fed up with our current political system that I wish there was a reset button for the whole mess and we could go back to the very first congress of this nation. Alas that is merely romanticism. There is no going back.

[iruinedyourday]

I am not offended by your assertion, but since one my undergraduate degrees is in Political Science, I think I have a solid grasp on what counts as socialism.

As far as where my vote is concerned, I honestly don't want to cast a vote. I am so fed up with our current political system that I wish there was a reset button for the whole mess and we could go back to the very first congress of this nation. Alas that is merely romanticism. There is no going back.

hehe I beg of you to consider listening to more of what bernie sanders wants to change. I honestly think that you would like it. I'm /plead 'ing irl hehe... he wants those things you mention too! :)

Side note, I do wish that Bernie never came out and said 'I'm a democratic socialist.' His intentions were to beat the right to the punch, to come out and say, hey look, I'm sick of all this name calling and fighting, I'm going to beat you to the punch and come out admitting that I want to help the poor, and I want to de-value the the word socialist as a campaign attack, so we can talk about the issues.

he was hoping to take the 'high road' so to speak, and that we would respect him for his honesty and bold move... unfortunately it hasn't quite worked out that way, and a large number of people (like yourself IMO) that would love his policies, and what the man wants to change in Washington, are missing the message :(

Anyway, I hope that maybe you may re-consider, and vote for the man, not against a title! Give him more time in the spotlight!

But that's your right! :D

(ps the only reason we'll get Hillary in the white house is because the Dem party is afraid that there are too many people that wont vote for him because of that title. I honestly dont think the republican party has the power to beat either democratic candidate this election.. so! if you would prefer Hillary to Bernie, then dont vote for him because of the title, but if you really dont want Hillary in the office, at least say to your friends that you dont care that hes a socialist, its that you dont jews or something else about him haha)

[ronasch]

unfortunately the actual jobs that the coal and oil industry in america would provide is quite a bit lower than the number of jobs repairing our infrastructure would. The irony is that after all the infrastructure is complete, you could start over again, repairing the shit you repaired first, because like all things, time takes its tole and degrades the conditions of our infrastructure!

When you are all done with coal and oil, and mining the last bits that we have here, you end up with a devastated environment.

Sorry, I just dont shit where I eat.

And hey man about being flippant, that doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite or anything, it just means I'm a realist... another thing liberals are more so than conservatives. We just dont make decisions off of the way we feel things should be.. we do based off of the way they are.

I swear you must not read the shit you post. We have spent billions upon billions on your bullshit infrastructure obsession to the point were stealing money out of the highway trust fund to build Dog walk paths, parks, and whatever else you morons can think of. Don't you remember from your earlier post all those "stimulus plans" Bernie voted for, the "shovel ready jobs" All that money is wasted sent to your " special interest " buddies, and Bernie voted for it. We have no more money and you just wanna keep spending like drunken whore.

As for the environment, have you ever taken a look at Bomb Dome in Hiroshima? It's quite remarkable how all the plants are so beautiful there. Hell have you ever visited a coal plant? All the plants growing as normal. The Earth is far more powerful then man and heals itself. These Elites who push this global warming bullshit are just trying to find another way to TAX you more, not directly but through your energy costs. Guess what your energy provider passes that cost to you IRUINEDYOURDAY. The Elites know this and don't care as long as the money keeps flowing. All this predictions those scientists made about the temperature and how bad it was gonna be are all bullshit. Even Al Gore in an "Inconvenient Truth" said, " Some of the Models some of the time". They were computer models and only some of them. Yet we go all crazy and start shutting down people's livelihoods because of what some QUACK politicians believe and what science CANNOT prove. It's sad to see how stupid a people we have become.

A generation of fools

[Lune]

global warming bullshit

Did the Jews do 9/11 too?

Tell Lune all about where that big bad zionist touched you.

[Lurikeen]

hehe I beg of you to consider listening to more of what bernie sanders wants to change. I honestly think that you would like it. I'm /plead 'ing irl hehe... he wants those things you mention too! :)

Never. Never! I will never turn to the darkside. ;)

[Lune]

Never. Never! I will never turn to the darkside. ;)

Not voting is worse than any other action.

The least you can do is display non-confidence in the two party system by voting for an outsider anti-establishment candidate that aligns most closely with your ideology. Then at least you're doing some good, considering Democrats, Republicans, and their respective tribes are largely responsible for this shit.

[Garg]

Let me ask you this Ruin, what is the incentive? I've skimmed over a lot of Sanders proposals ect. I have not come across anything that to me, show any reason to want to work hard. Currently that incentive I believe is there. Work hard to achieve bigger and better (even if its simply the idea of such). Where is the incentive to work hard when everything is mandated? How much money you make, how many days off you get, how you're suppose to live your life. I just don't see an incentive to read out and get ahead in this type of environment.

Even in our broken system we have now, I do believe that those who wish to work hard will get out and succeed. When everything is handed to them there is little incentive. This is my biggest problem with welfare in its current state. We seem to be so give give give and ask nothing in return. Thus we don't encourage people to get off of the welfare programs and back into the work force. Heck we come up with new means of welfare to make life even better.

I think we have a major problem with entitlement currently going on in this country. The way we administer welfare only seems to exasperate this problem. Given the way things are currently, I can't understand how adding more welfare type programs will ever make things better.

Frankly I think we'd see a heck of a lot more people succeeding if we cut the welfare. In place of the ungodly amount of money we spend on these types of programs create jobs. It doesn't have to be big jobs, heck even cleaning the parks would be better then nothing. Anything to force people to get off of the couch and into doing something, anything, useful and constructive.

[sOurDieSel]

Did the Jews do 9/11 too?

Tell Lune all about where that big bad zionist touched you.

Ahh, so if you don't believe in this so called apocalyptic global warming that Al Gore preached about in a "Convenient Lie"and Bernie Sanders thinks is the #1 threat to National Security you are now an "anti-semitic nazi who wants to kill 6 million jews" that believes in "conspiracies".....

[ronasch]

unfortunately the actual jobs that the coal and oil industry in america would provide is quite a bit lower than the number of jobs repairing our infrastructure would.

There are no infrastructure jobs without COAL & OIL dumbass

[Pokesan]

i love special interests. my favorite special interest is "special interests". it's interesting AND special.

special. interests.
(repeat 500 times)

[Lune]

Ahh, so if you don't believe in this so called apocalyptic global warming that Al Gore preached about in a "Convenient Lie"and Bernie Sanders thinks is the #1 threat to National Security you are now an "anti-semitic nazi who wants to kill 6 million jews" that believes in "conspiracies".....

Imagine that? When your opinions aren't subject to fact they get pretty fucking crazy.

[ronasch]

greater risk to national security?

Muslim Jihadists or Global Warming

Liberals choose global warming because it's politically incorrect to use the term
Muslim-Jihadist. I wish that was that was the reason. Lol

[Lurikeen]

Not voting is worse than any other action.

The least you can do is display non-confidence in the two party system by voting for an outsider anti-establishment candidate that aligns most closely with your ideology. Then at least you're doing some good, considering Democrats, Republicans, and their respective tribes are largely responsible for this shit.

Why so judgmental? Not voting can be the best thing to do. After all, the participation rate is tracked, in case you didn't know that.

[Lune]

Why so judgmental? Not voting can be the best thing to do. After all, the participation rate is tracked, in case you didn't know that.

They have nothing to fear from your not voting, it simply means they aren't being affected. Voting for their competition is a different matter. Completely withdrawing from the whole process because of disillusionment does nothing to help solve the problem. Even with the most pessimistic outlook, voting anti-establishment does very little to solve the problem. Very little is better than nothing.

If a substantial portion of the young people who you know damn well aren't going to vote, voted, then Bernie would win this election. It may not mean a lot to you because you don't agree with his platform, but a lot of people think he has a capacity to, at the very least, get the ball rolling on meaningful change.

[Lurikeen]

They have nothing to fear from your not voting, it simply means they aren't being affected. Voting for their competition is a different matter. Completely withdrawing from the whole process because of disillusionment does nothing to help solve the problem. Even with the most pessimistic outlook, voting anti-establishment does very little to solve the problem. Very little is better than nothing.

If a substantial portion of the young people who you know damn well aren't going to vote, voted, then Bernie would win this election. It may not mean a lot to you because you don't agree with his platform, but a lot of people think he has a capacity to, at the very least, get the ball rolling on meaningful change.

The problem with your view of voting is it engenders voting for the most electable candidate which is antithetical to voting on principles.

[Lune]

The problem with your view of voting is it engenders voting for the most electable candidate which is antithetical to voting on principles.

I think I've been unclear.

Vote no matter what, but vote for your principles.

Consider the current election. Hillary is the most electable candidate. There's no way in hell I'm voting for Hillary, I'm voting for Bernie. I know Bernie will not win. Nevertheless, the fact that I voted for Bernie instead of Hillary makes a statement, and reinforces the viability of the non-establishment candidate. If enough people refuse to vote Democratic(establishment candidate), then one of two things happens:

1. An outsider actually wins an election, and change might happen.

2. Democrats are forced to change their platform to capture the errant voters.

Voting Hillary does nothing to inspire Democrats to be less despicable. Not voting also does nothing to effect any sort of change, and people become even more discouraged by the poor performance of outsider candidates. If Bernie manages to pull off decent numbers this time around, people will be that much more encouraged next time. Abstaining from voting is ultimately self-defeating.

Also consider what old people have done with the Tea Party. Old people vote like crazy, and they've managed to replace Republicans with radicals precisely because apathy has led to a lack of sane, moderate voters in many constituencies. If crotchety old racist assholes expressed their unhappiness with republicans by not voting, there would be no tea party.

Of course, general elections are a different story, as you risk Ralph Nadering your preferred candidate.

[iruinedyourday]

Let me ask you this Ruin, what is the incentive? I've skimmed over a lot of Sanders proposals ect. I have not come across anything that to me, show any reason to want to work hard. Currently that incentive I believe is there. Work hard to achieve bigger and better (even if its simply the idea of such). Where is the incentive to work hard when everything is mandated? How much money you make, how many days off you get, how you're suppose to live your life. I just don't see an incentive to read out and get ahead in this type of environment.

Even in our broken system we have now, I do believe that those who wish to work hard will get out and succeed. When everything is handed to them there is little incentive. This is my biggest problem with welfare in its current state. We seem to be so give give give and ask nothing in return. Thus we don't encourage people to get off of the welfare programs and back into the work force. Heck we come up with new means of welfare to make life even better.

I think we have a major problem with entitlement currently going on in this country. The way we administer welfare only seems to exasperate this problem. Given the way things are currently, I can't understand how adding more welfare type programs will ever make things better.

Frankly I think we'd see a heck of a lot more people succeeding if we cut the welfare. In place of the ungodly amount of money we spend on these types of programs create jobs. It doesn't have to be big jobs, heck even cleaning the parks would be better then nothing. Anything to force people to get off of the couch and into doing something, anything, useful and constructive.

Now, in your last paragraph you are right on the same page as Bernie. Use the money our government has been giving away to create jobs. The only difference between Bernie's plan and yours is he will give the money that we have been giving to the 1 and 2% by increasing their taxes, taxing speculation trades on wall street (that economists agree are not good for business growth) and cutting payouts to corporations and banks. (which i might add is far more than what the government spends on social programs right now)

If we cut welfare, i think the only thing you'd see is white middle class Americans who have lost there job, pan-handling and posting on craigslist for jobs cleaning houses. A good example of this is the Great depression.

Truthfully if you think there is a problem with entitlement in this country, and republicans have been running our economy for the last 30 years, then you blame democrats, well, your math is just not adding up.

If you give someone money to go to collage, on average they are better off than if you handed them a mop and said go ahead, 'make your own way in life kid, oh if you dont show up at 5am tomorrow morning you're fired.' (keep in mind they already have someone mopping floor anyway, so that job isn't even available.)

This is also a great post to respond to, because again you are reaching towards ideological beliefs and hoping that economic policies will change the way our culture behaves. The truth is, we've spent 50 years doing this and the only change is that its gotten worse.

So if you look at nations where they have solid a government like Germany, Canada, England, Denmark, Australia New Zealand, all kinds of countries, there's a whole bunch, they can help the poor, they can provide security for all, and they have strong economic growth across the board.

Its time we made a change and tried to fix real problems. Its time we started looking at examples of things that have worked, and applying them to our nation, instead of just doing nothing and wishing people would work harder.

[Lurikeen]

I think I've been unclear.

Vote no matter what, but vote for your principles.



I think you are perhaps being a bit fundamentalist. Not voting IS a vote, of a sort. You don't like that? Well, then I suppose you can rally for your law against not voting.

[iruinedyourday]

I think you are perhaps being a bit fundamentalist. Not voting IS a vote, of a sort. You don't like that? Well, then I suppose you can rally for your law against not voting.

hehe its a vote for campaign reform! then you get bernie sanders to do that, then you say you wont vote for him cus of a antiquated definition of a word :( :( :(

[Lurikeen]

hehe its a vote for campaign reform! then you get bernie sanders to do that, then you say you wont vote for him cus of a antiquated definition of a word :( :( :(

Actually, I won't vote for Sanders because of his political position and party. Unlike you, I am educated in politics at a university level. In fact, I have worked in politics. But none of that matters on a game board where some "dude" who has reached x number of posts (or levels in game) automatically thinks they are qualified to speak on all matters concerning the world, including politics.

[iruinedyourday]

Actually, I won't vote for Sanders because of his political position and party. Unlike you, I am educated in politics at a university level. In fact, I have worked in politics. But none of that matters on a game board where some "dude" who has reached x number of posts (or levels in game) automatically thinks they are qualified to speak on all matters concerning the world, including politics.

whoa whoah i wasnt attacking you, lets not get all flamy, there has been enough in that thread for all our lifetimes.

I was just making a little joke.

[Lojik]

https://twitter.com/colonelbernie

[Lune]

Actually, I won't vote for Sanders because of his political position and party. Unlike you, I am educated in politics at a university level. In fact, I have worked in politics. But none of that matters on a game board where some "dude" who has reached x number of posts (or levels in game) automatically thinks they are qualified to speak on all matters concerning the world, including politics.

Considering all I've heard out of you is some irrelevant drivel about classical socialism followed by the absolutely typical (and uncompelling) promotional materials for classical liberalism and a curious yearning for 1770's politics, you don't seem any more qualified to speak on these matters than we are. I mean, how can someone with a bachelor's in political science (as you've reiterated) not even understand something as simple as the ramifications of not voting. Maybe you can use your fancy liberal arts degree to enlighten us simpletons on how that furthers your interest in any way.

Furthermore, if you had any abstract understanding of politics beyond what you managed to absorb from your professor's powerpoints the night before the midterm, you wouldn't be under the ridiculous impression that one can be more qualified than anyone else to discuss their political opinions on an elf forum... because that sentiment is even more averse to the spirit of our constitution than socialism. I sincerely hope you don't wave your Poli Sci degree around like this around friends, especially when it's used in an attempt to give ethos to whatever point you're trying to make. Nobody would be impressed, and I'd probably laugh in your face.