Veeshan's Peak AEs - Incorrect Resist Checks

[Daldaen]

This bug report is based off my experience almost never resisting these AEs with 255 resists and wiki lists them at -150 Resist checks.

This is incorrect - None of these AEs should have a lure style check on them.

Velious spdat (2001/01 and 2001/04):


Chaos Breath
Decrease Hit Points (HP) from 1004 (L1) to 1240 (L60)
Throw Into Sky


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 200 feet
Area Effect Range: 35 feet
Pushes Target Back: 3 feet
Throws Target Up: 14 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: NPC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Magic + 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Required: 337
Spell Duration: Instant
Area Effect Duration: 5.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: You experience chaotic weightlessness.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso rises chaotically into the air.



Diseased Cloud
Adding 9 Disease counters
Decrease Attack Speed by 55% (L1)
Decrease Current Hitpoints by 1250 (L1)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 300 feet
Area Effect Range: 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: NPC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Disease

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Duration: 300 ticks (30.0 minutes)
Duration Formula: 1
Area Effect Duration: 5.0 seconds
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you cast: You breathe out a cloud of corruption.
When someone casts: Soandso exhales a cloud of corruption.
Spell cast on you: Your body begins to rot.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso's body begins to rot.



Mesmerizing Breath
Target is frozen in fright


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 300 feet
Area Effect Range: 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: NPC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Magic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Duration: Unknown
Duration Formula: 5
Area Effect Duration: 5.0 seconds
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you cast: You exhale a silent cloud.
When someone casts: Soandso exhales a silent cloud.
Spell cast on you: You are in a cloud of silence.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso is surrounded by a cloud of silence.


Stream of Acid
Decrease Hit Points (HP) by 500 (L1)
Decrease Movement by 50% (L1)
Decrease Current Hitpoints by 500 (L1)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 300 feet
Area Effect Range: 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: NPC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Duration: Unknown
Duration Formula: 2
Area Effect Duration: 5.0 seconds
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you cast: You spout acid.
When someone casts: Soandso spews a stream of acid.
Spell cast on you: Your body burns as the acid hits you.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso's body burns as the acid hits them.



Lucy Data showing the date the resist checks were added:

Chaos Breath (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=835&source=Test)

2002-09-03 22:22 Changed Resistadj from -200 to -150
2002-08-24 01:59 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -200

Diseased Cloud (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=836&source=Live)

2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -150

Mesmerizing Breath (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=840&source=Test)

2002-09-03 22:22 Changed Resistadj from -200 to -150
2002-08-24 01:59 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -200

Stream of Acid (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=838&source=Live)

2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -150

Now... The 2002-08/09 time period is when they switched away from the Lure system into the -150/-200/-300 Resist check system, and also when they moved from a 255 resist cap to 500 resist cap. Spells in the old system that were updated from a Lure to negative resist check showed this change in Lucy data:

Dragon Roar (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=789&source=Test)

2002-09-03 22:22 Changed Resistadj from -200 to -150
2002-08-22 10:10 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -200
2002-08-22 10:10 Removed Slot 1: Lure(6)

All of the above AEs are lacking the "Removed Slot 1: Lure(x)" line and the Velious spdat, so during Velious these spells should never have any component making them harder to resist than any other spell. The dragons being 6 levels higher than players accounts for enough different to allow players to still get hit with high resists, but it allows resists to actually matter against these dragons.

Currently on Nexona or Hoshkar you are getting hit for full hits 100% of the time with 255 Resists. They should definitely be tough to resist, but they should be resistable if you stack resists.

There is a *slight* possibility they don't have resist checks and wiki is wrong, but if thats the case something else is amiss. These AEs shouldn't be hitting for full basically every time.

[Colgate]

feels like in general AoE spells are way harder to resist than they should be; most old sources cite Sevalak as the easiest of the three triplets, but his AoE makes him MUCH harder than Cekenar because it's (basically) unresistable 1260 damage

beefing up player resist rate against NPC spells would solve a myriad of really weird issues including dragon roar being insane, damage aoes from dragons being basically unresistable for the most part, and level 20 green con NPCs frequently landing root on level 60s with MR gear

good find, though, aside from that

[Buhbuh]

bump

[Colgate]

Freezing Breath (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=845&source=Live)
2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -150

Poison Breath (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=857&source=Live)
2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -150

the 9/4/2002 patch contained a big overhaul for resist calculations at the same time these values were set

to me it sounds like we're dealing with AoEs that were designed with a system where resists could go beyond 255; currently they're incredibly difficult to resist with only 255 of the given resist, whereas before resists were hardcapped at 255 here, they felt much more balanced

these AoEs being realistically resistable with our current 255 cap seems much more in line with old archive posts and screenshots showing players simply standing in AoEs and dealing with them

[Man0warr]

Resist system is Alunova's baby - been real hard to get him to change any of his work from Velious. Feels like they are intentionally inflating mob difficulty but it makes any dragon with Fear in Velious a zerg fest.

[Redi]

based off my experience almost never resisting these AEs with 255 resists

I will say that I have resisted and partialed various abilities in ToV, but it is a very rare case. Great finds.

I'll try to do some log searches for resist messages.

Resist system is Alunova's baby - been real hard to get him to change any of his work from Velious. Feels like they are intentionally inflating mob difficulty but it makes any dragon with Fear in Velious a zerg fest.

If that's the case there should be some comments on it. Players are reporting experiences and researching classic mechanics.

[Redi]

Chaos Breath
Decrease Hit Points (HP) from 1004 (L1) to 1240 (L60)
Throw Into Sky


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 200 feet
Area Effect Range: 35 feet
Pushes Target Back: 3 feet
Throws Target Up: 14 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: NPC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Magic + 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Required: 337
Spell Duration: Instant
Area Effect Duration: 5.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: You experience chaotic weightlessness.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso rises chaotically into the air.

Resists:
Logs checked between [Tue Apr 21 11:19:13 2015] - [Wed Oct 28 18:21:06 2015]

Only 2 resist messages



Sevalak:

[Sat Aug 08 22:17:35 2015] You resist the Chaos Breath spell!

Von or Neordla:

[Tue Aug 04 09:48:41 2015] You resist the Chaos Breath spell!


Random sample grab for values/dragons; slight variation in damage:

Vyemm (fall damage, not spell damage?)

The non 100 damage was a result of bard song/runes dampening damage

[Tue Aug 18 19:51:32 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 100 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:54:40 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 72 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:54:09 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:53:55 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:53:20 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:53:02 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:52:40 2015] The harmony fades.
[Tue Oct 13 19:52:40 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:52:28 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:52:10 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:51:54 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.
[Tue Oct 13 19:51:15 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.

[Tue Oct 13 19:48:04 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 100 points of damage.

[Tue Oct 13 19:47:41 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 100 points of damage.

[Tue Oct 13 19:47:23 2015] The harmony fades.
[Tue Oct 13 19:47:23 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 82 points of damage.

Sevalak:

[Sat Aug 08 22:16:31 2015] Your aura fades.
[Sat Aug 08 22:16:31 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1237 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 22:17:49 2015] Your aura fades.
[Sat Aug 08 22:17:49 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1237 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 22:18:05 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1264 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 20 18:11:29 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1264 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 20 18:12:22 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1264 points of damage.
[Wed Oct 14 18:38:36 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1264 points of damage.

Von double proc?:

[Sat Aug 08 14:44:52 2015] Von claws YOU for 153 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 14:44:52 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1228 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 14:44:52 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1228 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 14:44:56 2015] LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...
[Sat Aug 08 14:45:21 2015] You have entered Temple of Veeshan.

[Sun Aug 30 17:30:45 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1228 points of damage.

Cargalia double proc?:

[Sun Aug 23 17:35:13 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1228 points of damage.
[Sun Aug 23 17:35:22 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1228 points of damage.
[Sun Aug 23 17:35:22 2015] You have been slain by Cargalia!

Jen Sapar double proc?:

[Sun Aug 02 13:23:34 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1248 points of damage.
[Sun Aug 02 13:23:37 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1248 points of damage.

[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1248 points of damage.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Incognito rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Saxx rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Riding rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Riding has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Kindra rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Kindra has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Fourier rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Defcon rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Leluyn rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gradner rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Rockem rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Chiggen rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Chiggen has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Engelburt rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Checkraise rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Rygrim rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Strange rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gongshow rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Elric rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gzaz rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Little rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Little has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Warzone rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Colgate rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Colgate has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gaping rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gaping has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Bush rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1248 points of damage.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] You have been knocked unconscious!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] You have been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] You have lost experience.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Saxx rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Saxx has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Fourier rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Fourier has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Defcon rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Defcon has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Leluyn rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Leluyn has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Rockem rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Rockem has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gongshow rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gongshow has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Elric rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Elric has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gzaz rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gzaz has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Warzone rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Warzone has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Bush rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Bush has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gradner rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Gradner has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Strange rises chaotically into the air.
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:14 2015] Strange has been slain by Jen Sapara!
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:18 2015] Returning to Erudin, please wait...
[Sun Aug 02 13:26:18 2015] LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...

[Wed Aug 19 17:19:35 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1248 points of damage.

Mav Sapara:

[Tue Aug 04 09:30:17 2015] Mav Sapara scowls at you, ready to attack -- looks like quite a gamble.
[Tue Aug 04 09:30:23 2015] You experience chaotic weightlessness. You have taken 1240 points of damage.

[Redi]

Diseased Cloud
Adding 9 Disease counters
Decrease Attack Speed by 55% (L1)
Decrease Current Hitpoints by 1250 (L1)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 300 feet
Area Effect Range: 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: NPC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Disease

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Duration: 300 ticks (30.0 minutes)
Duration Formula: 1
Area Effect Duration: 5.0 seconds
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you cast: You breathe out a cloud of corruption.
When someone casts: Soandso exhales a cloud of corruption.
Spell cast on you: Your body begins to rot.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso's body begins to rot.

Resists:
Logs checked between [Tue Apr 21 11:19:13 2015] - [Wed Oct 28 18:21:06 2015]

Only 3 resist messages

Zlexak:

[Sat Aug 08 18:47:34 2015] You resist the Diseased Cloud spell!
[Sat Aug 08 21:33:09 2015] You resist the Diseased Cloud spell!
[Sat Aug 08 21:33:54 2015] You resist the Diseased Cloud spell!

Zlexak:

[Sat Aug 08 17:45:23 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 18:47:09 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 18:47:21 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 18:47:54 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 18:48:09 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 20:42:35 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 21:32:54 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Sat Aug 08 21:34:37 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 20 17:49:01 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 20 17:52:40 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 20 17:52:56 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 27 20:01:02 2015] The shimmer of runes fade.
[Thu Aug 27 20:01:02 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 550 points of damage.

[Wed Oct 14 18:22:23 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 22 17:32:54 2015] The harmony fades.
[Thu Oct 22 17:32:54 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1232 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 22 17:33:32 2015] The harmony fades.
[Thu Oct 22 17:33:32 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1232 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 22 17:34:19 2015] Your body begins to rot. You have taken 1250 points of damage.

[Daldaen]

Yep basically these are hitting for maximum damn near every time regardless of resists.

These effects should be resistable, and stacking proper resist gear/buffs/bards should be far more relevant on these encounters than they have been.

That's not to say someone with 100 DR should be resisting these AEs frequently. But if you're gear swapping and pushing 255 Resist, you should have a decent shot at resists and a pretty reliable shot at partial hits. You shouldn't however be seeing 15 full hits in a row.

[Freakish]

Spells that give a debuff will always be full or resist. You will never see a partial Hoshkar AS.

[Redi]

Mesmerizing Breath
Target is frozen in fright


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 300 feet
Area Effect Range: 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: NPC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Magic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Duration: Unknown
Duration Formula: 5
Area Effect Duration: 5.0 seconds
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you cast: You exhale a silent cloud.
When someone casts: Soandso exhales a silent cloud.
Spell cast on you: You are in a cloud of silence.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso is surrounded by a cloud of silence.

Resists:
Logs checked between [Tue Apr 21 11:19:13 2015] - [Wed Oct 28 18:21:06 2015]

Only 1 resist messages

Ionat

[Mon Aug 03 09:20:33 2015] You resist the Mesmerizing Breath spell!

[Mon Aug 03 09:22:13 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.
[Mon Aug 03 09:22:42 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.
[Mon Aug 03 09:23:14 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.
[Mon Aug 03 09:24:11 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.
[Tue Aug 04 08:49:36 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.
[Thu Aug 27 14:47:22 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.


Entariz

[Tue Aug 04 08:50:20 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.
[Tue Aug 04 08:50:45 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.
[Tue Aug 04 08:51:01 2015] You are in a cloud of silence.

[Redi]

I don't have any logs of stream of acid:

"Stream of Acid"

Spell cast on you: "Your body burns as the acid hits you"

[Daldaen]

So I remember on live there was an issue that spells with a DD + some duration debuff were unable to critical blast. I don't remember them being all or nothing type spells. That's possible though. Looks like the skeleton nuke for Necros is supposed to function like that.

Stun nukes though shouldn't because there's no determintal debuff component with a duration. But Chaos Breath is landing for full basically every time as well.

[Daldaen]

Bump.

[Victorio]

Bump

[Cecily]

Spells that give a debuff will always be full or resist. You will never see a partial Hoshkar AS.

Did you ever try to resist him? I used to get plenty of partials around 220 DR. Or has the resist system changed since 255 cap was put in?

[Chrysus]

Did you ever try to resist him? I used to get plenty of partials around 220 DR. Or has the resist system changed since 255 cap was put in?

I'm hardly a VP veteran, but in in 2 engages with Hoshkar at 255 Disease resist, I resisted nothing at all, took full damage every AE.

[Cecily]

Problem with being a veteran is sometimes things change and your input is worthless. Ill try to look for old hosh logs but it might not be the case anymore. The ae was rediculously hard to resist in any case (not entirely sure being over 255 doesn't lower your resists /tinfoil). Getting 1 1500 hit softened or nulled made carrying a full DR kit through kunark seem worthwhile.

[fiveeauxfour]

always thought this was put in to prevent people from 6man vp drags

[Daldaen]

Would love to see someone 6-man these Dragons who regen 5% a tick lol.

The resist rate on the AEs listed is abysmal, not even worth swapping in Fire, or Disease on Nexona/Hoshkar since they are basically unresistable for all intents and purposes. Xygoz again, not worth swapping in MR to attempt to resist silence.

[Erati]

^ which is not classic bc as a little boy raiding this zone - i had no where near the same care and intensity as I have for resist gear now and yet i dont remember these AEs being that big of deal once u were hitting 200+ resists

i had basically BD jewelry/ Diamond Jewelry n a frog crown n thgt I had the best resist gear in the world- did Bristlebanes first two server crawls of zone

[Thordoff]

This EQ Clerics thread (ca. March 2001) has some good commentary around resist rates on some of the dragons AEs. Post #5 is particularly interesting.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10799

[Daldaen]

Bump

[Daldaen]

Bump.

As of right now there are a few AE effects which have unclassic resist modifiers added to them post-Luclin that check against a 500-capped resist table making a 255 capped resist person have almost 0 chance of stacking resists to be useful.

Diseased Cloud
Steam of Acid
Mesmerizing Breath
Chaos Breath

These are all great examples of AEs where even if you stack out resists to max you have minimal change in your results in full resists.

[Sirken]

bump

[Daldaen]

Bump. The resist rates on VP AEs are way off, likely due to the spell data having a negative resist/lure check which wasn't added until Luclin when resists could exceed 255

[Daldaen]

Bump. The resist checks on all of these spells are set to unclassic levels which make them Unresistable vastly changing the dynamic of VP raids.

Make VP classic again.

[Daldaen]

bump

[Daldaen]

bump

Should be a quick check to see if these 4 spells have a Lure modifier in the base Velious code (I don't see it in the Lucy history) and shouldn't be difficult to remove the -150 check on them to make stacking resists have value in this zone.

[Daldaen]

Bump lets get some classic resist stacking going on in VP to counter the AEs.

[Daldaen]

Bump

[Daldaen]

Bump. Simple DB change to the spell data.

These should never have a Lure/-150 resist check during Velious. It makes them damn near impossible to resist with 255 in the Resist. Very unclassic situation in VP currently when you can't resist Hoshkar or Nexona AEs.

[Daldaen]

Bump

[Synthlol]

Bump

[Kaino]

Its pretty ridiculous a bug this impactful is just completely ignored

[Rygar]

For what it's worth I did come across a post from a developer claiming Dragon Breath / Weapons have a separate resist check that operate a bit more independently from your normal resists.

See here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010904075544/http://boards.station.sony.com:80/ubb/everquest/Forum2/HTML/000007.html
Player Question:
This issue has come up before, but I never saw an answer. There is a widely held perception (especially in very powerful guilds) that resists over a certain amount (the amount cited varies, but usually above around 220) are considered to be more harmful than good. I have particular interest in this as a bard, as resists is one of the few things that I offer powerful guilds on big raids.

As anecdotal evidence that this perception may be true, on a trakanon raid I recently attended, I was in a caster group. Four of us in the group had 210-250 poison resist with my songs up. The other two were testing this theory, and left theirs at around 180 with my songs. After Trakanon fell, we compared notes, and all four of us with 210+ PR got poisoned. The two that had the lower resists did NOT get poisoned.

Obviously, this is a small sample size, and could just be strange luck, but it concerns me that it is a widely held perception, and would like a statement that it has been tested and is in fact false, or it's been tested, and true, and we're fixing it.

Thank you for your time.

Laluni Songhammer
52 Bard of E'Ci.

Dev Response #1 (03/28/2001):
The perception is indeed false. The problem is that the saves against dragon weapons are different than the saves in the rest of the game. With a resist that would make you basically involunerable against a 'normal' (ie non dragon) MOB a dragon is going to be able to still hurt you.

Most of the time people max out their resists only when fighting mobs of this level, so I understand where the perception comes from. However we have tested this and the stats and they do not roll over.

Dev Response #2 (4/2/2001):
Due to popular demand we are testing the resists AGAIN
We are trying it with resists at around 175/180 and then with them maxed out

I'll let you know what we find out

Did not see an update from Ester after his 'testing resists again' mention.

I don't know what this special 'unique resistance check' is against dragons. I thought I had another post saved somewhere regarding there being a secondary resist check, but I could be confusing that with bard mez.

So just saying, not sure if these dragon weapon resists should be fully lure free or calculate the same as regular mobs (i.e. First resist check is normal resists up to 255, then must pass 2nd resist check that is a flat RNG 25% chance you get hit).

On a separate note, I'm guessing they should be lowered as I'm not sure how many people are resisting Trak DoT at 180 PR on P99 even with a large sample size?

[Raev]

It wouldn't surprise me if it's the basic PC vs NPC resist system that's overtuned. For example, after spending 30 seconds scanning the first page I could think of on allakhazam: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=6708

Does normal damage as mobs in here of this level .. hits with fire ae spells .. best to have fire resist gear and druid fire resist spell's on. with decent fr his ae's don't do that much. Drops pieces for SS quest.


The AE effect is 300 damage. Easily resisted at level 60 with 200 heat resist.

Whereas I would regularly need decent spot heals despite having 255 FR and 50 hp/tick regen. It also claims that the burning guardians triple rather than quad like they do on P99. I guess with a truly classic resist system the VP dragons would be 1 groupable, 5% regen or no.

I suppose nilbog would flip, but if I were a P99 dev I would try to write mechanics that had a few tunable 'balance' knobs, like 'hidden player resist penalty' and 'increase NPC damage' and such. If P99 green is ever released, you can set those to zero for a fully classic experience. With a mature server like blue, I can't help but feel that you need something extra so the NPCs don't get walked over.

[Rygar]

Keep in mind there was a patch on 9/4/2002 that changed resistances, not sure what specifically, but any mention of resistances past that date should be taken with a grain of salt (one of those posts were before this date, and one after):
Please note: there are a lot of changes going into the game with today's patch. Some of these changes (such as the changes to resistances and spell stacking) will change aspects of the game that may make gameplay different. Keep this in mind when you log in. With system-wide changes like these it is entirely possible that there are still bugs. Please report these bugs using /bug, and know that we will work to fix them as fast as we can. But also note that some intended changes might appear as bugs (perhaps a spell no longer stacks with another spell). Feel free to report these as bugs if you are unsure. But please keep in mind the changes listed here as well.

However, more interesting mentions in that patch:
We've made some fairly drastic changes to the way the spell resistance system works. Previously, there was only the smallest benefit to having resists over a certain value. We've reworked resistance in its entirety, completely replacing the old system with one that is more logical.

The idea behind the changes is pretty simple: Resists should matter in a way that makes sense.

Resists matter more for PCs. There are now tangible differences between having 50, 150, and 250 in a given resistance, for example. Resistance buffs, bard songs, and resist gear have actual value, all the way up the line.


It would definitely seem to imply from this that on P99 there should be little value to maximizing your resists, marginal difference from 150 - 255. Entirely possible 201-255 was useless much like the well-known returns for mana being only +1 point for having 201-255 wis/int.

This lines up with Raev's link to the burning guardian comments of it being easily resisted. I know on P99 I've had 255 FR/CR and been hit on the regular and needing spot heals as mentioned.

[Rygar]

I realize this isn't a VP dragon, but was looking into resist system in general to see if there was more merit to player resists being a joke. I found this interesting, post is dated July of 2001:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5466&page=2
Oh, side note, killed my first dragon ever yesterday. Faydedar. We did it with only 4 groups of people, too. Got Manan his LP for his epic. I don't know if it was just him, but dragon roar seems very weak. I only had 88 MR and it diddn't even stick once. His lava breath, though, sucks. I was up to about 130 FR and I was consistantly getting hit for a few hundred a shot. Not that it's a lot, mind you, but it's AoE so it adds up when the healer is trying to heal everyone.

Should be worth mentioning that Faydedar is a level 55 dragon, and this poster previously mentioned he was a level 51 earlier in the thread. Even if Faydedar's Roar had no lure component, I feel like a level 51 with 88 MR would be constantly running in terror on P99?

I'm not sure what Faydedar casts as dragon weapon on P99 vs. Live, but if it is Lava Breath per the wiki (500 AoE) then 130 FR being able to knock this down to 'a few hundred' gives resist adjustments a bit more merit.

[Pringles]

My thoughts on this give me an idea of why they use the Luclin resist malus. It's obvious from some of the previous posts that there was some secondary resist mechanic that came into play with raid dragons. Now we can't precisely figure out how that mechanic worked. So I think devs put the Luclin malus' in to simulate that mechanic. Although if we read through the comments I believe the resists are slightly over tuned and should be reduced by some amount. I'd ballpark maybe a decrease of 50 which would make it more in line with what the research shows.

[Dolalin]

I do find it amusing that this thread was even bumped by Sirken and still gets ignored. It must have been voted down internally or something.

I can see an argument for leavings things as they are to avoid trivializing the raid game on a very mature late-Velious server. But for a new server they should be fixed.

[Pringles]

Seems they tried to balance PC getting off spells on mobs but neglected to fix the resist soft caps.

10/08/2001

> *** Magic System Changes ***
>
> There is a more detailed explanation of these changes posted on our Developer's
> Corner. Please visit there for more details (either at www.everquest.com or
> http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi). Here is a
> summary of the changes:
>
> - The level-based spell resistance bonus inherent in super-high level NPCs has been
> reduced significantly.
>
> - Several NPCs have had their resistances reduced. Each of them was examined
> carefully, and resistances changed as seemed appropriate. For some of these NPCs
> other things were changed as well to compensate for their increased susceptibility to
> spells, such as armor improvements or perhaps greater hit points, if needed for that
> NPC.
>
> - NPCs that were highly magic resistant in order to make them immune to certain
> spells can now be given specific immunity to those spells. This means that they can
> be made immune to critical spells, as intended, and still be generally less resistant
> to magic. Players will receive a message similar to the one that is already given
> for Mesmerization spells when they cast a spell on an NPC that it is specifically
> immune to.
>
> IMPORTANT NOTE: It is very important to note that we have not made any NPCs immune
> to spells that they were not already immune to. Many NPCs that were previously
> immune to spells due to their high innate resistance to magic have had that
> resistance reduced and specific immunities added. So if you see an immunity message
> after attempting to cast a spell on an NPC that you hadn't seen such a message from
> before, understand that the NPC was already immune to that spell before due to high
> resistances, and the only difference is that it now has lower resistances in general
> and specific spell immunity (which is why you are seeing the message).
>

Despite them saying later that they haven't yet addressed the spell classes, this looks
like a big fix for the end game casters. Course it -might- be a nerf, if those supposed
immunities were previously capable of being overcome via high level Tash/Malo combo
resist debuffs... but it looks like it was aimed at Uber mobs that really weren't
castable on whether this was attempted or not.[/QUOTE]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/l0xkubjFM1I/c9VhtxqjhboJ

** Resistance Changes ** 9/24/02

We've made some fairly drastic changes to the way the spell resistance
system works. Previously, there was only the smallest benefit to having
resists over a certain value. We've reworked resistance in its entirety,
completely replacing the old system with one that is more logical.

The idea behind the changes is pretty simple: Resists should matter in a
way that makes sense.

Important things to note about the new resistance system:

- Resists matter more for PCs. There are now tangible differences between
having 50, 150, and 250 in a given resistance, for example. Resistance
buffs, bard songs, and resist gear have actual value, all the way up the
line.

- Conversely, resistances also matter more for NPCs. Some NPCs became more
vulnerable to things they have always been vulnerable to, other NPCs became
more resistant to things that they were inclined to be somewhat resistant
to.

- Resistance debuffs should also have more value, all the way up the line.
For the first time, resistance debuffs now have the ability to bring NPCs
that were lure-style only down into the range of being hit by normal spells.

- The hard level limit involving players casting on NPCs has been removed.
This used to be referred to in EQ folklore as the "Six Level Limit" (It was
actually 1.25 times the caster's level, but more people likely thought about
it the other way.) This means that in the vast majority of cases, there is
at least a small chance that a person will be able to connect a spell with
an NPC, even if they are out of that NPC's traditional level range.

- Overall, against NPCs that have medium-to-high resistances of a given
type, expect to see more full hits, fewer partials, but more full resists in
the new system. Taken over time, the damage done by PC casters to semi-high
resistance NPCs should be approximately the same, but will definitely
improve when the proper debuffs are applied (we wanted to make sure that
this did not turn into a universal nerf of casters).

We look forward to seeing how these changes play out in front of a larger
audience.

[Pringles]

I do find it amusing that this thread was even bumped by Sirken and still gets ignored. It must have been voted down internally or something.

I can see an argument for leavings things as they are to avoid trivializing the raid game on a very mature late-Velious server. But for a new server they should be fixed.

Alunova doesn't deal much with the project anymore and this area is his bag so not necessarily.

[Synthlol]

The only hard evidence (which has been provided by Daldean) supports the AE spells of the VP dragons (Diseased Cloud, Chaos Breath, Mesmerizing Breath, Stream of Acid) should lack any sort of lure mechanic prior to the 2002 resist overhaul.

Bump.