ToV and pulling mobs.

[Detoxx]

After yesterdays ToV nightmare, something has to be discussed and figured out about trying to pull NToV mobs to WToV zone out, or to any other wing. This creates a massive train that is uncontrollable from when you tag out the mob. Ikatiar the Venom was a fucking shitshow yesterday. Lets all not forget this rule, posted clear as day just a few above this post:

Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone.

1. This is exactly what was happening
2. Not one guild communicated when they were pulling or dropping these wing-wide trains.

Discuss

[arsenalpow]

It's not exactly what was happening, mobs were pathing back, your mage was poking his dumb head out of your micro safe spot, and aggroed the returning mobs.

See? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH1lZbLwuQU&feature=youtu.be)

[Pint]

perhaps if you had communicated and coordinated with the other guilds like the rule states then it would not have happened. as it stand it looks like is in fact exactly what happened.

[arsenalpow]

That was a pull that had been hopping around for about 10 minutes. Detoxx specifically tried to put on BDA though.

[Pint]

I didn't see any guilds get called out, I saw 4 different guilds fte ikatiar and make a mess yesterday.

[arsenalpow]

I didn't see any guilds get called out, I saw 4 different guilds fte ikatiar and make a mess yesterday.

Pretty sure Detoxx asked every single guild to concede. My logs might be overwhelmed and broken now due to excessive Detoxx tells.

[Pint]

I know, only rampage owned up to their mistake and conceded though.

[Erati]

Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone.



I think theres a big difference sometimes in creating a purposeful train and when sometimes Everquest is a a really crazy frustrating game where shit happens when 250 people are bouncing aggro all over a raid zone

That giant train which buzzed around was not some majestical planned ball of terror - it was the result of alot of mistaking happening all over the zone which got mobs out of place and running all over.

At that point - its impossible to identify any one 'trainer' bc aggro has now been bounced around, this rule is referring to trains like Fearplane etc where you send kiters to ball up shit to get to boss mobs, that is not what is happening in ToV for some of this. Its literally pulls simply failing and shit pathing back.

I think guilds should be well aware where they position themselves and if they are in line with simple unaggro'd mobs walking back to their spawn point - that doesnt seem to be all that useful of a location

For example in that video - it seems that door is very very risky - its a prime spot when it works, but the wrong nub opens the door at the wrong time should not be the fault for a pull that was alrdy over and failed and simply pathing back.

This is an in general statement not really specific to yesterday bc that was a crazy mess. I dont think you can outlaw pulling out of the wings bc lets be frank with 300 people in the zone we cannot have all of us on top of one another in the same spot. That will also cause issues and no one wants that. Pulling mobs keeps EQ fresh and creative - so you cant simply award the mob to the guild poopsocking the spawn point.

[Detoxx]

Alright, I'm not trying to play the blame game here. Whats done is done. I want ways to correct this going forward. This isn't RnF, this is a place meant to do exactly my intentions.

At that point - its impossible to identify any one 'trainer' bc aggro has now been bounced around, this rule is referring to trains like Fearplane etc where you send kiters to ball up shit to get to boss mobs, that is not what is happening in ToV for some of this. Its literally pulls simply failing and shit pathing back.

In this situation, it seems fair to consider the guild as the single puller, because you're right, you can't pin it on one person. That does not excuse it though.

[Detoxx]

Another day of trying to pull Aaryonar to West ToV. This shit cannot happen anymore, youre entire train comes back and the boss if u wipe and wipes out everyone in its path. If u want to contest mobs, why the fuck arent you in NToV

[Drakakade]

Taken pulled Aary to WToV zone out thus dragging trains all over ToV and wiping every other guild in the zone including Divinity 2x.

Do not pull Aary to West Zone out. End of story. At the very least, after you do that and wipe then ooc concede and move along.

[Alunova]

I can always add drakes to the WToV exit if an agreement can't be reached.

[Detoxx]

Something needs to be fucking done. Training over guilds and wiping them with the remnants of the train and the possibility of wiping an entire raid force, or more, with absolutely zero reprimand is out of fucking control.

Come to an agreement or make the devs do some retarded not classic shit.

[Pint]

kill mobs in wing they spawn in. p basic stuff here.

[Erati]

If we would like to have a full fledge ToV rule ledger created - we need to sit down and discuss stuff in Skype.

The sample size rage is a lil redic, from the sounds of it, had Divinity died where they lay and not wait around at the zone out to allow the mobs wiping the raid to then attach on to the Taken Aaryonar fight ( we have fraps of Divinity mage standing at the zone out, waiting for mobs to be in sight, then zoning out....as mobs become unaggro then add, we have his name too ) , Aary would have been dead and no other QQ about NTOV trains etc would have even existed.

I was not around for this so dont know the full on reasons or locations of each raid force to analyze whether Divinity made it a bigger issue than it should have been ( if a guild has FTE on a mob why cant forces simply log out and wait for pathing mobs to return if they are worried about trains from other wings )

We are gonna need some Sim Repop gentlemans rules in my opinion if we are wanting to really hamstring guilds creative strategizing in normal ToV spawns...We cannot have 3-5 raid forces be forced to stack on top of one another....that would be a HUGE de-syncy mess...pulling outside of wings ( while dragons are not perma rooted ) allows for guilds who are not poopsocking spawn points to have a chance at an engage.

I think some of the biggest issue is the fact that raid forces at the door seem to very easily pick up aggro from shit that paths back...from last week's Rampage video simply opening the door once can wipe anyone set up there.

That spot is very high risk - so I dont know if we can really base ToV softcoded engage rules around the premise that the raid forces at the NTOV safe spot past the door, need to be 100% safe all the time even after a pull fails.

Camp out your force and log in when its safe. No reason to pick up extra trains- not your FTE should not have aggro....let the mobs reset

I am willing to sit down and discuss some better rules for server health tho, ToV is not going anywhere.

[bktroost]

I don't know if anyone cares about this, but West is the only way for a non gater to get out of the zone safely. I was on my rogue and was watching the Taken pull last night. A few Clue members who had nothing to do with West training were trying to get out and were completely oblivious to what was going on and they were exploring that area to find an exit. I sent them a message with directions in hopes they would get out faster, but then Aary came running by. What happens when one of the non-raid members use that exit and accidentally wipe a competing guild because its the only safe place in the zone to get out and mobs are being trained on them?

Those fights are not always short, effectively shutting down about half that zone when someone is trying to pull.

[Erati]

I don't know if anyone cares about this, but West is the only way for a non gater to get out of the zone safely. I was on my rogue and was watching the Taken pull last night. A few Clue members who had nothing to do with West training were trying to get out and were completely oblivious to what was going on and they were exploring that area to find an exit. I sent them a message with directions in hopes they would get out faster, but then Aary came running by. What happens when one of the non-raid members use that exit and accidentally wipe a competing guild because its the only safe place in the zone to get out and mobs are being trained on them?

Those fights are not always short, effectively shutting down about half that zone when someone is trying to pull.

ToV is open 24/7 ..... its kinda like not standing on train tracks if you know trains are on schedule and running.

While thats not a perfect answer or solution for people trying to be in zone peacefully who arnt even raiding...This is not being pulled to the zone in where people are literally zoning into chaos they cannot escape. People that need to exit have many choices to get out ( WC cap, hammer off friend, Thurg Gate, Port, or wait 10 min til the engage is done )

Again - I think some rules would be great but they need to be in the spirit of improving ToV raiding for the server's long term. Not some reactive rules that benefit the strats of some.

[arsenalpow]

It must not be that bad considering Asgard/Taken pulled Gozz from west into the north wing.

[Erati]

It must not be that bad considering Asgard/Taken pulled Gozz from west into the north wing.

that was Asgard/Forsaken

but yes - agree with sentiment of your post. I am merely saying, if we want some rules...we need to discuss them in a chat and hammer out some good ones for the better of the server overall as ToV will be end game here for a long while.

Otherwise its a waste of time to complain about specific encounters here each week - the strats are not changing that much, plenty of options.

My door is always open :D

[arsenalpow]

that was Asgard/Forsaken

but yes - agree with sentiment of your post. I am merely saying, if we want some rules...we need to discuss them in a chat and hammer out some good ones for the better of the server overall as ToV will be end game here for a long while.

Otherwise its a waste of time to complain about specific encounters here each week - the strats are not changing that much, plenty of options.

My door is always open :D

Ya that's what I meant, Forsakengard.

[Drakakade]

The sample size rage is a lil redic, from the sounds of it, had Divinity died where they lay and not wait around at the zone out to allow the mobs wiping the raid to then attach on to the Taken Aaryonar fight ( we have fraps of Divinity mage standing at the zone out, waiting for mobs to be in sight, then zoning out....as mobs become unaggro then add, we have his name too ) , Aary would have been dead and no other QQ about NTOV trains etc would have even existed.

.

I cannot really comprehend this sentence, Eratani. What are you saying?

First, we did not wait around at the zone out lol, when Taken pulled Aary to zone out they wiped our raid force (40 of us) mid-way in West. You cannot pull Aary from North without dragging a train through west. And that wiped our raid.

Our mage is factioned so no idea what you are talking about there. After you guys killed 40 of us, we coh'd to Exit or popped up at exit to see Taken trying to kill Aary while simultaneously training away the adds on Aary up the pipe (thus killing more Divinity draggers because you flopped them or died trying to train away mobs). Aary was at 90 percent when Taken started to wipe.

When I talked to a Taken officer he told me, "Rampage trained you, not us." Which is a pile of crap because Taken was fighting Aary at West Zone out, not Rampage. Clearly, Taken pulled Aaary to West Zone out and they wiped most of the zone doing it.

TL;DR: Pint got it right: Kill the dragon in the wing it spawns in. You don't need a meeting to agree to that point.

[Erati]

there are several other aspects of raiding in there (most notably during Sim repops when all is up) that i feel need to be examined by all if we are set on hindering guilds abilities to contest spawns during normal variance hours without having to

a. poopsock the spawn point
b. pulling on top of one another in 1 spot per wing

Right now its very much a race for all no matter where u are in ToV- if we cut off pulling tru wings we now are forced to have 300 people in one area each pop

that presents its own set of problems

I can PM u the fraps im talking ab later Drak - dont wanna derail this too bad w play by plays ab what did or didnt happen

[Artaenc]

If we would like to have a full fledge ToV rule ledger created - we need to sit down and discuss stuff in Skype.

The sample size rage is a lil redic, from the sounds of it, had Divinity died where they lay and not wait around at the zone out to allow the mobs wiping the raid to then attach on to the Taken Aaryonar fight ( we have fraps of Divinity mage standing at the zone out, waiting for mobs to be in sight, then zoning out....as mobs become unaggro then add, we have his name too ) , Aary would have been dead and no other QQ about NTOV trains etc would have even existed.

I was not around for this so dont know the full on reasons or locations of each raid force to analyze whether Divinity made it a bigger issue than it should have been ( if a guild has FTE on a mob why cant forces simply log out and wait for pathing mobs to return if they are worried about trains from other wings )

We are gonna need some Sim Repop gentlemans rules in my opinion if we are wanting to really hamstring guilds creative strategizing in normal ToV spawns...We cannot have 3-5 raid forces be forced to stack on top of one another....that would be a HUGE de-syncy mess...pulling outside of wings ( while dragons are not perma rooted ) allows for guilds who are not poopsocking spawn points to have a chance at an engage.

I think some of the biggest issue is the fact that raid forces at the door seem to very easily pick up aggro from shit that paths back...from last week's Rampage video simply opening the door once can wipe anyone set up there.

That spot is very high risk - so I dont know if we can really base ToV softcoded engage rules around the premise that the raid forces at the NTOV safe spot past the door, need to be 100% safe all the time even after a pull fails.

Camp out your force and log in when its safe. No reason to pick up extra trains- not your FTE should not have aggro....let the mobs reset

I am willing to sit down and discuss some better rules for server health tho, ToV is not going anywhere.

Asking guilds to camp out because you got FTE is very disorienting and harmful to the multiple competing guilds. It would mean whoever can logon and reconstruct groups/etc first wins. Something else needs to be done but I completely disagree with the tough luck we got FTE you camp out and get disoriented while we check if we can kill this dragon and control our train. I don't know what it is but it can't be this.

[Erati]

i dont think you are following

I am not saying camping is the answer or only option- its simply AN option

The trains from a week ago Ikky were bc aggro was not cleared n u guys opened the door n trained yourselves

This week - Div was in the line of fire and yes were subsiquently trained by the pull. All I read here is guilds vying for the ability to raid the way they are currently comfortable operating and not really taking any blame for

1. The location of their raid force w respect to how mobs return
2. Getting social aggro on pulls they are not a part of

I too would love cleaner ToV- we are less than 3 months in...i dont think everyone has even figured out their own guilds rhthym just yet

Forcing everyone to mobilize to 1 spot is not the answer bc once we do that- we will just b forced to poopsock

if you are in the middle of the zone and not by a zone out- theres potential for danger from a multitude of ways. If you are not contesting the mob and know the train will path back tru- camping is the easiest

if you are contesting a mob that was alrdy pulled well then im not sure a bunch of rules will fix the results of your pullers tossing in aggro on trains they didnt intialize

Im not being super helpful providing much substance for those wanting blood for this- but I think some sensible ToV rules overall would go a long way- and restricting pulling (while these dragons are not rooted) is not sensible as it means poopsocking wins...wonder which guilds have been poopsocking the most in there and want rules to help that strat?

inb4 Taken just wants to b able to pull dragons bc thats our strat

we are all in this for our own interests and its obvious

[Detoxx]

If we would like to have a full fledge ToV rule ledger created - we need to sit down and discuss stuff in Skype.

The sample size rage is a lil redic, from the sounds of it, had Divinity died where they lay and not wait around at the zone out to allow the mobs wiping the raid to then attach on to the Taken Aaryonar fight ( we have fraps of Divinity mage standing at the zone out, waiting for mobs to be in sight, then zoning out....as mobs become unaggro then add, we have his name too ) , Aary would have been dead and no other QQ about NTOV trains etc would have even existed.

I was not around for this so dont know the full on reasons or locations of each raid force to analyze whether Divinity made it a bigger issue than it should have been ( if a guild has FTE on a mob why cant forces simply log out and wait for pathing mobs to return if they are worried about trains from other wings )

We are gonna need some Sim Repop gentlemans rules in my opinion if we are wanting to really hamstring guilds creative strategizing in normal ToV spawns...We cannot have 3-5 raid forces be forced to stack on top of one another....that would be a HUGE de-syncy mess...pulling outside of wings ( while dragons are not perma rooted ) allows for guilds who are not poopsocking spawn points to have a chance at an engage.

I think some of the biggest issue is the fact that raid forces at the door seem to very easily pick up aggro from shit that paths back...from last week's Rampage video simply opening the door once can wipe anyone set up there.

That spot is very high risk - so I dont know if we can really base ToV softcoded engage rules around the premise that the raid forces at the NTOV safe spot past the door, need to be 100% safe all the time even after a pull fails.

Camp out your force and log in when its safe. No reason to pick up extra trains- not your FTE should not have aggro....let the mobs reset

I am willing to sit down and discuss some better rules for server health tho, ToV is not going anywhere.

Problem is we were recovering, so we dont have time to camp out, wait to see if you kill it, camp back in, rebuff, med and all the while something else could spawn. When we pulled Gozz to NToV, its path back was not in direct danger of wiping any raid.

[Erati]

I had no issue u guys pulling Gozz last night and again I dont have a perfect solution to make things better, but believe me, turning ToV into a poopsock fest w only 1 spot to pull North mobs too is not a healthy way to make raiding better in there

We all wanna enjoy the game without wrecking everyones fun but at same time there are basic mechanical issues asking the majority of the zone to be in a small corner for most the day

[arsenalpow]

Temple of Veeshan Raid Target Rotation Sign Up Sheet
Rampage
Forsakengard
Taken
Divinity
BDA

[Erati]

Temple of Veeshan Raid Target Rotation Sign Up Sheet
Rampage
Forsakengard
Taken
Divinity
BDA

Chest - the Father of Rotations.

If we are serious about this...I think it actually wouldnt be all that blah :)

Could even have a few dragons serve as the 'benchmark' for signing up- Aaryonar a good one

[Artaenc]

Temple of Veeshan Raid Target Rotation Sign Up Sheet
Rampage
Forsakengard
Taken
Divinity
BDA

Better add Anonymous/AG/Europa and soon Clue soon as they level up to that list because I believe they have enough numbers that they can muster if there is no competition. Asgard and Forsaken can muster enough numbers if it's going to be a rotation. So here is the new list...

Asgard
Forsaken
Anonymous
Clue
Europa
Azure Guard
Rampage
Forsakengard
Taken
Divinity
BDA

So every 2.75 months a guild can own ToV for a week? Let's write a rough draft and fill in the details. Very excited about this...

[arsenalpow]

Lol, just illustrating that this isn't going to be a simple fix. I'm pretty confident that most servers didn't have 6 or more ToV capable guilds simultaneously.

[Drakakade]

Eratani, you are missing the big picture here. It is against the rules to purposely train other guilds to get FTE. Detoxx quoted you the relevant raid rules.

Pull up map. See where Aary is located in the center of NToV? Taken pulled that mob to the exit of WToV!! Are you out of your tree?

There is no way you can do that pull without aggroing every mob along the path, thus training 200+ folks in the zone (including yourselves). That's a flagrant violation of the raid rules. You guys managed to wipe 3 or 4 raid forces in ToV with that pull. You definitely wiped Forsaken thus negating their attempt on Aary.

Divinity was armor clearing in WToV and we had no idea what was about to happen. There was no ooc or shout. 40 folks were trained and wiped. After Taken trained Taken , Aary and friend then proceed to move into HoT and wipe anyone there then path back scooping up anyone missed along the way.

And you are arguing about petitioning the paint chips on your train after it rattled over 3 or 4 other guilds? Seriously?!

Edit: What is Taken going to do to make it right?

[Ella`Ella]

I'm pretty confident that most servers didn't have 6 or more ToV capable guilds simultaneously.

Consolidate.

[Drakakade]

Another day of trying to pull Aaryonar to West ToV. This shit cannot happen anymore, youre entire train comes back and the boss if u wipe and wipes out everyone in its path. If u want to contest mobs, why the fuck arent you in NToV

QFT. Eratani, I am not calling for blood here. I wish you guys would man up, and apologize for your heinous train and be decent citizens.

What every other guild that you wiped yesterday is requesting is for Taken to stop pulling NToV mobs to WToV wiping the zone.

Asgard has suggested a very simple rule: kill mobs in wing they spawn in.

Dead simple. IF you train another guild trying to get FTE then concede the mob, and concede the next mob for 1 hour after spawn time in ooc. The rules are there. Please get on board.

[Erati]

Edit: What is Taken going to do to make it right?

I was not around so I absolutely cannot get into specifics that I have no first hand knowledge of, I hope that can be understood because I simply dont have great answers for what happened yesterday besides in general statements about the symptoms of what days like yesterday represent and where our future in ToV is going as a server.

I can promise you this tho - we will hammer into all our pullers where you guys like to farm armor and practice some strats for controlling the trains better as well as making sure all pullers have hotkeys for pulling alerting the zone of danger. Those are not specific 'What does Divinity gonna get to make it right' answers but they are things that will be improved upon in the future when Taken engages in this type of pull.

It was very very sloppy agreed, but I dont think many things thus far have been all that clean in general unless guilds simply decide to not bother. There is no malicious intent with any of this and I feel most of the issue was just adrenaline of pullers trying to accomplish some exciting and fun without thinking about the dynamic game world that surrounds us all and how everything we touch in it COULD affect others.

To me this is the beginning of a bigger scope of talks for this zone - I don't have any candy to appease you for the headache of yesterday.

[Erati]

Dead simple. IF you train another guild trying to get FTE then concede the mob, and concede the next mob for 1 hour after spawn time in ooc. The rules are there. Please get on board.

I was not there and thusly have no idea ( nor any part ) of why we did or didnt concede after wiping your raid

its very likely that we gave up going for Aary upon hearing about what happened to you guys but since I did not take part, how in the world can I issue a statement about anything I am still learning about.

If indeed we train others during our pull- inhibiting them from having their own ability to engage that was resulting from no error of their own, we most certainly will follow the ToV concession rules and concede for an hour.

I just am operating at a lesser vantage point as I was not present and I am currently the only officer able to type here. Those that were present cant speak in this forum, so I was trying to steer the conversation to something beneficial for all but again it seems no one interested in that and only want us to agree to not pull NTOV to WTOV which to me makes no sense to agree to unless we can come up with an overall better Temple of Veeshan.

[Drakakade]

Fair enough, Eratani. What other rules makes sense to you in TOV?

You can suggest some more if you want, but honestly, there is no way to pull NToV mobs to WToV without having a train ping pong around the zone wiping other folks in zone, and that's a raid violation of the existing rules in place already. Time to stop.

[Erati]

Fair enough, Eratani. What other rules makes sense to you in TOV?

You can suggest some more if you want, but honestly, there is no way to pull NToV mobs to WToV without having a train ping pong around the zone wiping other folks in zone, and that's a raid violation of the existing rules in place already. Time to stop.

I would love to see something done along the lines of respecting the guild that gets certain linked drake guards dead first at the time of the named pop they are associated with to get the first crack at attempting the named within a time limit. ( Lord Fishstick pops, first guild to pull and kill one of his guards gets first crack at the second guard ( are there two? ) and then first attempt at the named or til time limit is up whichever happens first...sorry for a nested parenthesis lol. )

Something to that affect - it would go along way with sim repops as well. I am quite a ToV noob in general though so I am not the correct person to analyze each encounter and where you draw the line with an idea like that but the spirit of the idea I think is something that would be good for us all.

[Anichek]

Kill the mob on it's spawn point (or if it paths, in it's pathing line only).

Fixes the problem instantly.


Also, it's unreasonable for a guild to set up shop at a zone out and then not expect to catch hell once in a while. You aren't nailed for zoning a bad pull/adds in KC or CoM. It also wouldn't be an issue if mobs were killed on their spawns.

[Erati]

Kill the mob on it's spawn point (or if it paths, in it's pathing line only).

Fixes the problem instantly.


Also, it's unreasonable for a guild to set up shop at a zone out and then not expect to catch hell once in a while. You aren't nailed for zoning a bad pull/adds in KC or CoM. It also wouldn't be an issue if mobs were killed on their spawns.

I dont mind we are 'catching hell' - I just dont see the alternative being that great of a solution for all the ToV raiding guilds- that is my point.

When we are in the wrong, we are in the wrong and USUALLY admit it / walk away.

Again, I was not there so I continue cannot fully dive into what happened yesterday with what did or did not happen.

[Anichek]

I dont mind we are 'catching hell' - I just dont see the alternative being that great of a solution for all the ToV raiding guilds- that is my point.

When we are in the wrong, we are in the wrong and USUALLY admit it / walk away.

Again, I was not there so I continue cannot fully dive into what happened yesterday with what did or did not happen.

Eratani, I'm not placing a blame on anyone. BDA had a bump with Divinity as well once in ToV.

I'm saying instead of some huge, pain in the ass set of raid rules for ToV, make ToV mobs be killed in their wing, on their spawns/pathing nodes.

Also, I'm saying, guilds should stop crying wolf when they are positioned at the only zone out available to melee, and something goes awry and they have to zone out. If a guild sets up at zone out, they need to anticipate that there COULD be stuff dragged there in an escape attempt. We expect it in normal XP zones, and it's the risk you take setting up shop there.

If mobs were killed in their wings, on their spawns/pathing nodes - then a guild setting up at zone out only has a concern when a guild is giving up on the raid mob and trying to zone out to stay alive and avoid a 100% raid CR. It becomes a non-issue, because they choose to set up there and thereby acknowledge and accept the risks of being set up in that spot in the zone.

I do agree that pulls need to be cleaner. The train and split method causes a shit ton of disruption to zones, and ToV amplifies that situation a ton when pulls bridge wings.

[arsenalpow]

Killing targets on spawn points isn't feasible if there isn't a spot to hide from an AE, dragons must be pulled to safe locations for engagement. The issue with this is saying "no pulling across wings" turns the very limited safe spot locations in NToV into desync central. That's not really a fair solution either.

[Erati]

Who is crying wolf ? All I mentioned was had we not had what felt like a very malicious drop of mobs on us at the zone out mid engage with it in our camp ( fraps still in process of our review to see what happened ) - alot of the mess that followed would not have occurred, albeit the Divinity wipe sounds like it happened on the pull in which is absolutely wrong and our fault.

I am not playing victim or asking for sympathy for Taken fighting mobs at the zone out, we understand the mechanics of fighting there- its also useful when shit goes bad in general. If you guys remember early on - everyone absolutely didnt want to see mobs pulled to the ENTRANCE as it means no one can zone in safely. Well, sometimes exiting a dungeon is not very safe, thats Everquest. Mainly, I dont want to see or get to the point where we have 200 people poopsocking NTOV stairs and we have to have every angle of every corner being recorded for potential 'trains' to hope to get guilds to concede mobs.

[Anichek]

Who is crying wolf ? All I mentioned was had we not had what felt like a very malicious drop of mobs on us at the zone out mid engage with it in our camp ( fraps still in process of our review to see what happened ) - alot of the mess that followed would not have occurred, albeit the Divinity wipe sounds like it happened on the pull in which is absolutely wrong and our fault.

I am not playing victim or asking for sympathy for Taken fighting mobs at the zone out, we understand the mechanics of fighting there- its also useful when shit goes bad in general. If you guys remember early on - everyone absolutely didnt want to see mobs pulled to the ENTRANCE as it means no one can zone in safely. Well, sometimes exiting a dungeon is not very safe, thats Everquest. Mainly, I dont want to see 200 people poopsocking NTOV stairs.

Eratani, I am citing my example based upon an interaction that happened quite some time ago with Divinity. Perhaps I am not being clear enough.

While killing on spawn may not be the right answer, I agree that pulling them all over the landscape isn't either.

Unfortunately, nothing creative comes immediately to mind to address the simultaneously present issues of creating a massive poopsock OR a messy train.

This won't be easy to solve, to be honest. The last thing any of us wants is a random FTE lottery with 4 guilds, 200 people huddled on a spawn.

[Pan]

I think this discussion is about a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself.

The problem is, as I see it:
Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone.

There's a rule. It's in place. And it's crystal clear.

What's not happening is enforcement. The the staff is completely, 100pct absent in enforcing the rules that they set out.

Imagine that the real-life traffic enforcement officers quit or were so hamstrung that they couldn't do their jobs - and the roads were mayhem. Accidents everywhere. Unsafe speeds through residential zones. Nothing from the top down and tho most drivers might self-regulate, the roads and streets wouldn't be fit to travel on.

Alunova's proposed solution is just a crutch for lack of enforcement. Sure, speedbumps would slow people down here and there, but it would solve a small bit of a symptom of the problem. Not the problem itself.

I sent this to Sirken the other day and received no reply:
If the only enforcement of raid rules on p99 is going to be self-regulation, those who can self regulate are going to end up regulating themselves off the server...

as it stands, p99 rewards those who don't follow the raid rules and penalizes those who do - that's absurd and not sustainable

The point is, get rid of the rules, or enforce them

I'm not against player-made agreements - in fact, Omni has supported most initiatives. That's not what I'm objecting to here.

Currently, the raid environment rewards those who play loose with the rules and penalizes those who don't. The looser you play, the more shit you'll get to loot. And right now, there's clearly NO limit to what you can do as far as breaking the rules go. If you want pixels for your guild, ignore them completely. There seem to be no consequences currently (apart from those who impose consequences on themselves).

An agreement here would be a crutch. Not a bad thing, but a patch to a small symptom of a much bigger problem. I'm almost to the point at which I'd encourage a Lord-of-the-Flies type shitshow for every target...just to see at what point those who are charged with enforcing the rules (that they wrote) would intervene and put a stop to the nonsense.

And yeah, I'm willing to eat a ban for posting this.

[Drakakade]

I agree with you, Cloki. No idea where CSR has been - probably, they have given up dealing with all the childishness on this server.

The rules are clear.

Anichek, Divinity was no where near the zone out, we were clearing down from Gozzrem after rezzing up after being trained by mobs from Telk, because when Telk was pulled by another guild, some of Telk's train added to our mob we were killing at Gozzrem thus wiping us.

10 minutes later, Divinity had no idea or warning that someone was about to pull a mob from NToV to WToV exit and wipe the zone. Look guys, that's obviously against the rules.

That's an obvious ban / concede next mob etc, etc. As Omni / Cloki pointed out, if there were any CSR, then that would be raid suspension right there.

Eratani, I see you throwing us a bone here, and I appreciate it. Look, you don't need to be at the raid to know that pulling Aary from NToV to WToV is not cool, and is going to result in a lot of trains / deaths. This is the second weekend in a row Divinity has been trained in this manner.

We are not talking 4 or 5 guilds competing at WToV zone out for Lendi here. Sure that's a mess, but it's understandable. You guys want to work something out for those scenarios? Sure, go ahead. Willing to listen to something reasonable.

But pulling NToV mobs to WToV when the zone if 200+, thus wiping the ding dang zone, 3+ guilds is against the existing rules. Come on now.

[Artaenc]

Cloki, you let me know if you see any Asgardians breaking raiding rules because it should be non-existent.

I get what you're saying though, the urges to go Amtrak mode is strong and getting stronger per incident just to get attention on this matter.

[arsenalpow]

So the solution is to be the closest guild socking?

[Pint]

Lets not sandbag a very basic fix bc ppl want additional rules to increase their odds at mobs. There are plenty of safe spots to kill dragons in ntov, flurry drakes take 5 hrs to respawn and regular trash takes ~72 mins? Jump in the wing and clear to the mob you want to fight if there are 5 guilds sitting on top of you, if they run a train over you and can't handle it thus wiping your raid then they have violated the raid rules and have to concede for 1hr/1attempt. The only way for 5 guilds to operate in the same zone is for them to spread out. All this elaborate train pulling is in no way a better or easier solution to the 5 guild problem. As it stands right now only 2 entities are consistently inside ntov working on mob attempts, the rest of you are half a zone away creating havoc.

[bktroost]

So the solution is to be the closest guild socking?

BDA makes an absolutely insightful comment in so few words.

Chest has been superior at thinking about what the other person is going to do to get as close to whatever line we all imagine is drawn and not cross it. Many raiding guilds on P99 have done this in a competitive sphere for so long that instead of hitting a wall, we push the line.

That line is so far gone that if we stopped and looked back at our history of raiding, we would see how far gone we are.

Today the term "player made enforcement" is akin to "uniformly agreeing to break the rules." If no one is enforcing the rules, we will always find a way to break them as long as it benefits us. Why? Because the first guild to do it will benefit. Then we argue and everyone gets on board thinking this is the new raiding world. Then the line gets pushed by a new guild who benefits from being the only one and we argue and come to a new "player made agreement" again.

This system is not successful for a healthy server. It is successful for the advantageous and aggressive guilds who have long since abandoned the idea of self policing.


I humbly request to hearken back to the days when we all knew what raiding was like and GM's had involvement in our lives. This mountain top council needs an arbiter.



As Aaron said in scene II of Titus Andronicus: "Pray to the devils; the gods have given us over."

[Anichek]

Nemce, so Omni and Azure Guard are calling for more GM presence in the raid scene. Noted.

I can't speak for Chest, but the reality of the diatribes being posted is that we need to simplify conversation to exploration of solutions.

So other than additional staff time investment and/or expansion of staff, what else is realistic? Pint had some reasonable points.

[bktroost]

Also, it may be worth noting that I have no skin in this past week's train game and should not in any way be seen as "out for blood." I gain nothing by Taken or anyone else specifically being suspended, etc.

However, it is not for lack of power that I avoid that scene, it is lack of desire. Our allied force pulls 70 high level people to Vindi regularly and had just as much force at this past weekend's CT that we just raced for and won. My abstinence from NToV is based entirely on my disapproval of the status of raiding there.

[Detoxx]

WTB perma rooted mobs.

Are we going to work on some sort of agreement here, Rampage hasn't chimed in and we need their input as well.

[Erati]

Both situations have problems - we just have not experienced what it feels like to have everyone consolidated in one designated spot yet...

We are bouncing around ideas for this week, we might be joining the poopsock stairs this round who knows - but in general limiting the ability to pull the mobs out of the wings hinders nearly as many things as it helps.

Pulls need to be more responsible agreed, and we are addressing those things internally to be more prepared. This is still very very new to many people, no one logged in as an EQ pro without some bumps along the way.

Still open to proposals of sensible rules that everyone can agree to follow to make all encounters better however, feel free to spit ball some out there.

[bktroost]

As we consider new ideas, please just keep a firm eye on the current rule sets as written law and not a suggestion. Training a congested area is never, under any circumstance, an acceptable tactic. With so few safe locations in North to do this with it seems a really neat challenge to try and find a different way.

You know there are a lot of cubby areas with dragons that have no LoS issues to the main training ledges that would facilitate an entire raid force. For instance if you were to clear and set up in Lord Kriezan's area and say another guild set up in Feshlak, etc. You could have someone pull, say Lady Nev to one or the other area and train mobs away and you could solo pull her out. If the guild in Feshlak got FTE then we'd be safe in Kriezan or vice versa.

It wouldn't be as simple as VP is, log in at pad, get FTE or don't and watch enemy train themselves or win at ramp. You would have to clear to a safe to kill area or have your raid camped out there and log in and clear the drakes in that location in advance (some of the drakes have a 2 day timer and others a 72 hour, so it's not that bad if you are actively tracking that mob).

All I'm saying is that if we think creatively we can come up with something that works to prevent training each other and makes the zone livable again.

[Erati]

^ somebody did some exploring last night :)

[Drakakade]

Aye, open to suggestions. I would like to point out that atm the best representatives of guild behavior are the old "C" class guilds. Rampage in particular have been the only guild I have seen concede mobs without a lot of theatrics when they made a mistake.

Detoxx pushing for some reasonable solutions too.

Maybe that is because those 2 guilds had so much experience with VP trains? And been down the fraps / petition quest wars? An eye for an eye making the whole world blind thing. It doesn't do anyone any good to involve GMs.

In any case, I believe a logical first step is to confirm no pulling dragons out of their wing. Yes, it makes it harder (assuming no rotation or engage order or something reasonable /laughs and wipes away a tear), because you need to clear parts of a wing or camp out when the other guild engaging etc etc.

One thing we knew pre-Velious when I put up a post asking for us to iron out some of these things before release was having 6+ raid capable guilds in ToV was going to be a pita. Trains and trying to determine whose train wiped whom is part of it even.

ToV is a small zone and we need to work together to come up with some reasonable rules. AND folks need to self-police.

[Pint]

I'd point out that when multiple guilds go for trak no guild sets up behind the mtn and pulls trak over those other guilds. In hate you are told not to pull the zi when other guilds are present bc you can't run him and a train over those other guilds. None of this is new, none of these problems you guys are creating are velious or tov specific issues, you're all just pushing your luck bc nobody is stepping up to stop you.

[Erati]

Taken isn't going into the Temple of Veeshan and saying to ourselves "How can we screw everyone out of mobs and make things a big mess"

We have been parking at WTOV bc its simple to herd our cats to that point without endangering others - when NTOV mobs pop and we are in West we log in and try for them.

Will we pull Aaryonar to WTOV again like last week - ehhhh prob not. I dont understand why everyone is rushing to finalize and hard code rules for this stuff - you realize once these are rooted we will have no choice right... once we agree to something that prevents pulling out of the wings it will be impossible to revert that if other issues arise.

We will be putting bandaid after bandaid on our rules bc we were not patient to flesh out some reasonable engage guidelines

So to play Devil's Advocate- we have everyone in NTOV for the NTOV pops - great - how we will prevent leap frogging or how we will properly concede mobs bc 1 hour wont cut it if you are trained while on top of the other force who simply camps out with a stop watch going

It takes around an hour to recover fully from a major Velious wipe and be rebuffed/ready- thats simply talking about being ready to pull, not engaging the mob or splitting it back out or clearing trash to pull etc

[Pint]

It has been proven multiple times over that ppl in wtov are in fact endangering other ppl in the zone, that's not an opinion, it is a hard fact.

You're avoiding ruling on cross wing pulls bc you somehow think that training the guilds in north while you're in west is better than training the guilds in north while you're in north? What? Leapfrogging is part of eq, it happens all the time at naggy, innoruuk, cazic thule, vox and even the kunark dragons. Again these "problems" are not new and they did not crop up with velious. Ppl can drum up whatever rules they want and I'm game to hear them out but right here in the immediate future, no cross wing pulling is a very simple solution to what is currently the biggest issue regarding training other raids in tov.

If it takes you more than an hour to CR in tov then your guild has bigger issues than where to pull the mob and whether or not you get leapfrogged. It takes about ~10 minutes to get a raid force up and running again in tov UNLESS you are being repeatedly trained during your CR by guilds in another wing (an issue that has been happening weekly).

[arsenalpow]

Keeping targets within each wing along with only a finite number of safe spots will create a raid scene so absurd that no one will win. It will be leapfrogs and trains and accusations of impropriety and all kinds of underhanded shit.

[Pint]

Keeping targets within each wing along with only a finite number of safe spots will create a raid scene so absurd that no one will win. It will be leapfrogs and trains and accusations of impropriety and all kinds of underhanded shit.

Or it will keep the guilds who cannot compete out of the way and remove the mayhem they are causing from what is alrdy an absurd situation. Ntov is full of places to set up a raid to not be trained, you simply have to clear that area. Even the aary spot in question requires clearing of flurry drakes and static mobs before it can be utilized. Frankly you guys do not know what you're talking about bc you have not taken the time to enter the wing with a raid force and work out how to play inside the wing, instead you want to hang out at the west zone out and train the entire zone for some lucky dragon snipes.

[arsenalpow]

So "compete" but do it your way or it's no longer competition, it's mayhem. Stop being obtuse. The fundamental issue is the overcrowded raid scene, there's never been a situation where 6-8 guilds could be in North simultaneously if they so chose. We need a better solution than no pulling outside of wings when the limited number of safe spots ensures that everyone will be screwed if too many guilds decide to "compete"

Also we don't hang out at west generally.

[Erati]

It has been proven multiple times over that ppl in wtov are in fact endangering other ppl in the zone, that's not an opinion, it is a hard fact.


You misunderstood what I meant by saying we herd our cats to west to not endanger people - it is the simplest place to explain to run to and not difficult to set up a mage there either.

If we have stragglers show up in NTOV, there is potential to get wyverns trained by noobs everytime those doors open

WTOV exit is the easiest spot - that is not the zone in - where all Dragon Friendly people can park where it gives you easy access to most of Temple Veeshan for mobilization ( since the zone out is right there )

It is not an ideal spot to pull North mobs too ( esp while Divinity is raiding in the wing )- did I ever say we will continue to butter our bread by pulling North mobs to West ? In fact it has happened I think a whooping two times now - god forbid Takenites trying to play a lil Everquest and pull mobs. It obviously did NOT work out for us and caused alot of issue - will we blindly do the same thing without changing or altering how we did it before - absolutely not, a lot was learned.

You guys are giving us absolutely no credit here and from the looks of it are simply just salty at an isolated event that still could result in a suspension for us or what have you.

I am sorry I am not blindly agreeing to something I dont see a bunch of pro's to agree to as we have not experienced the alternative yet. Why would we agree to something that results in an unknown alternative outcome?

[Pint]

There is nothing obtuse about not wanting to be trained by a guild who is not even in the same wing of a very large zone as you. Even if your guilds were capable of successfully getting the dragon put of these trains and killing more than 1/10 tries, you still cannot control the train after the dragon is split which is a clear violation of the rules alrdy in place. You guys are refusing to move forward with a simple solution bc you're holding out for more concessions to make things easier for you, concessions that are extremely unlikely to materialize with rampage in the game.

[arsenalpow]

BDA has killed Ikatiar twice, and Eashen once. Each time they were pulled out of north. Detoxx screamed about the most recent Ik kill but it was his mage that poked his head outside the cubby and opened the door thus training his raid force.

Ramp likes their spot deep in North past mischief, Forsakengard like the cubby next to Ikatiar, Taken likes West exit, BDA likes East, and Divinity likes all over west. I'm sorry that I don't really have any interest plopping my raid force on top of another guild, or moving in front of another raid force, being forced to clear trash, then getting leapfrogged after we've done the dirty work.

You want to claim leapfrogging is part of raiding? Well so is pulling.

[Pint]

You cannot cross wing pull and control your train long enough to kill the intended target and even if you could the guilds in your path are in no way required to move for you so you are going to train them every single time. So every time you cross wing pull you are breaking a written rule and earning a suspension. 1+1=2 even in p99 believe it or not. I don't even keep track of which specific guilds are responsible for cross wing trains bc it is not relevant, no guild should be doing it period.

[arsenalpow]

There is nothing obtuse about not wanting to be trained by a guild who is not even in the same wing of a very large zone as you. Even if your guilds were capable of successfully getting the dragon put of these trains and killing more than 1/10 tries, you still cannot control the train after the dragon is split which is a clear violation of the rules alrdy in place. You guys are refusing to move forward with a simple solution bc you're holding out for more concessions to make things easier for you, concessions that are extremely unlikely to materialize with rampage in the game.

"Control the train" has always referred to not dropping the adds on a waiting raid force. Anytime Detoxx has screamed train from a BDA kill it's been because mobs have pathed back (unaggroed) and hey caught aggro. The rule isn't "take the mobs back to where you found them" You know that.

[Pint]

The door is transparent, it does not matter if it is open or closed...

[arsenalpow]

The door is transparent, it does not matter if it is open or closed...

So it's not a safe spot at all then, why camp there.

[Pint]

A train is not your responsibility until you drop it where ever that may be, the train is on you until it resets and is no longer a liability to other raids. Now who is being obtuse, you guys are incredible.

[arsenalpow]

A train is not your responsibility until you drop it where ever that may be, the train is on you until it resets and is no longer a liability to other raids. Now who is being obtuse, you guys are incredible.

Ok, so next time someone decides to train everything out to grab statue I'm going to park my raid force at upper arena, and when the unaggroed mobs path back and eat my raid force in going to demand a concession. Oh wait, it's never worked like that. Not fear, not hate, not VP, not anywhere.

[Pint]

Basically what I'm getting from you is that next trak spawn I can train jugs past the mtn then drop them and when they path back over the mtn and aggro your raid its all good bc I'm no longer responsible for that train. You really thought this one through, props.

[Pint]

Being responsible for your train/kite was specifically created bc of pofear! You're off your rocker.

[Erati]

damnit BDA took over this thread too

So a Lord in NTOV spawns- 4 guilds are at the Ikky/Eashen stairs

There are drakes that guard the Lords which have to be killed. Why is it unreasonable to have agreements surrounding those guards which unlock engagements on the named ?

If we kill flurry drake guards you better believe the named will then be pulled out right after

[Erati]

another idea - for NTOV mobs

raid forces must be parked at the zone in - and we COH race for them all

if we cant pull mobs out of the wing - we then remove the advantage of socking. Lets race for em all

This way guilds cant be trained by being set up too close bc we would be all be actively racing / setting up.

[Pint]

damnit BDA took over this thread too

So a Lord in NTOV spawns- 4 guilds are at the Ikky/Eashen stairs

There are drakes that guard the Lords which have to be killed. Why is it unreasonable to have agreements surrounding those guards which unlock engagements on the named ?

If we kill flurry drake guards you better believe the named will then be pulled out right after

It is not unreasonable at all but it is a perfect example of sandbagging the issue at hand to try and push an agenda instead of solving the issue that the thread is actually addressing. Or were you going to pull those guards to wtov first then kill the dragon?

Also why the fuck am I having to defend server rules that have been rules for years in this thread. Why are we going to pretend like Chest doesn't understand rules that everyone has known and been abiding by for YEARS.

[Erati]

It is not unreasonable at all but it is a perfect example of sandbagging the issue at hand to try and push an agenda instead of solving the issue that the thread is actually addressing. Or were you going to pull those guards to wtov first then kill the dragon?

Also why the fuck am I having to defend server rules that have been rules for years in this thread. Why are we going to pretend like Chest doesn't understand rules that everyone has known and been abiding by for YEARS.

I am not sand bagging anything - Rampage hasnt even bothered to comment on this thread at all

how can we agree ( all the guilds here ) to anything before they say hello?

The entire point I am making and please dont misconstrue it- Once an agreement like this is made, it seems very unlikely it will ever get undone and thusly we will forever be locked with killing dragons in the wing they spawn ( KIWIS - Kill In Wing It Spawns ) and then doubly locked in when they classically perma root some of the Lords and other dragons.

So while we are here to make ToV a better place - I feel the KIWIS rule needs to come hand and in with some kind of engagement understanding as leap frogging will take over as the 'new training'.

If you dont believe me well you were not in NTOV during the first Velious sim repop. Its all about who can clear the drake guards for the other guild.

[arsenalpow]

It is not unreasonable at all but it is a perfect example of sandbagging the issue at hand to try and push an agenda instead of solving the issue that the thread is actually addressing. Or were you going to pull those guards to wtov first then kill the dragon?

Also why the fuck am I having to defend server rules that have been rules for years in this thread. Why are we going to pretend like Chest doesn't understand rules that everyone has known and been abiding by for YEARS.

The only person pushing an agenda is you Pint. You want to be rewarded for socking right near the mob spawn and you want to stop anyone from pulling anywhere near you. You made a camp at a bottleneck then screamed when mobs walked through there. It's being willfully ignorant.

Trak vs ToV is apples to fucking oranges, stop trying to frame the argument for the purposes of ForumQuest. I'm interested in relevant rules that don't boil down to "sock the mob" and I have absolutely no interest in rhetoric like "leapfrogging is raiding, learn to compete nub"

Y'all let me know when you'd like to have an actual conversation about how to solve the problem, until then BDA will abide by the initial agreement.

[Detoxx]

"Control the train" has always referred to not dropping the adds on a waiting raid force. Anytime Detoxx has screamed train from a BDA kill it's been because mobs have pathed back (unaggroed) and hey caught aggro. The rule isn't "take the mobs back to where you found them" You know that.

I think you've lost your mind. To insinuate that it is not the responsibility of the person pulling a massive train, peeling a mob, dropping the train or sometimes even the mob, is just mind boggling. My mage would not have agroed any mobs had you not trained them all the way past our camp, flopped them and then failed the pull letting not only the train path back, but Ikatiar.

Try to use some common sense.

[Drakakade]

Any guild which pulls a mob out of the wing thus wiping other guilds in an attempt to get FTE should already be eating a server raid ban. The rules are clear.

Divinity has not petitioned any guild, yet. Server GMs might just slap you guys with a raid ban any ways. Forsaken has asked nicely 2 weeks in row. Divinity too.

Put an end to it, guys. IF you want to come up with some extra ideas / suggestions on how to make ToV less a cluster then giver, but the existing rule is clear.

[Pint]

Divinity seems to be the only other guild in here not playing dumb, big surprise. Why does Rampage need to comment on killing ntov mobs in ntov when they do it every single week. Rampage and forsaken/asgard pull near each other every week so "not wanting anyone to pull near me" is again just Chest talking to be saying something. Your solution to not being leapfrogged is to train the guild in front of you. Detoxx, Divinity, I assume Rampage and Asgard all clearly see that you guys have no defense for your actions, you are breaking server rules and waiting for someone to slap you on the wrist.

[Erati]

One ambitious pull =! the norm - never has, never will.

Im very consistent w this- I love all the projecting and assumptions being made by all. As I asked before which everyone ignores: should this be agreed to, can we then talk about how to not leap frog and possibly some form of players gentlemans agreements for engages?

or is it bc we know Rampage will take whatever they want bc they can without agreeing to anything and thusly its fruitless to try to create ced engage rules that we know they will not agree too bc it has potential to hurt pixel count and therefore fruitless to bring up since it will never be considered by the one guild that has final say since they control all and triple thusly making my desire for ced talk simply creating a stalemate for the agreement everyone else but BDA wants

that sum it up?

[Pint]

I dont know what youre trying to say but if it is that you will no longer pull ntov mobs to other wings, then perfect. Rampage is very unlikely to agree to your leashed mob engage rule but since that rule has nothing to do with why guilds in ntov are getting trained by guilds not in ntov, I am going to continue to insist that it is not relevant to the issue at hand.

[arsenalpow]

Guys I'm going to make camp at the well in Plane of Hate so don't pull any mobs through or around me, if anything paths near us that we didn't pull it's your fault and I demand reparations.

[Detoxx]

Guys I'm going to make camp at the well in Plane of Hate so don't pull any mobs through or around me, if anything paths near us that we didn't pull it's your fault and I demand reparations.

Although your anecdotes and hyperbole are amusing, itd be much more beneficial for you to stop wasting our time and consider trying to do something about this besides act like a child. We are all trying to figure something out before we have another weekend full of absolute absurdity.

[arsenalpow]

Although your anecdotes and hyperbole are amusing, itd be much more beneficial for you to stop wasting our time and consider trying to do something about this besides act like a child. We are all trying to figure something out before we have another weekend full of absolute absurdity.

No, you don't get to call me out after you have your hype man Pint doing the same exact shit. I'd looooooooovvvvvvve a solution, I don't think keeping pulls within the wings is a fair solution. I think it directly benefits your current position on the matter.

[Pint]

Im pretty sure the no cross wing pulling solution directly benefits everyone who doesnt want trains flying around all of tov when mobs spawn. Your lack of any solution or insightful/relevant input to the discussion is only furthering your agenda to keep ignoring the raid rules until someone punishes you for it. Most of us operate outside the realm of BDA logic though so maybe youre just having trouble conceptualizing the issues? Maybe I could draw you a diagram or a map or something?

[Artaenc]

This is a good discussion let's not risk getting this thread thrown into RnF. Let's focus on ToV cross wing pulling and possibly discuss the other issues later perhaps on another thread.

[bktroost]

Explain to me why something like this doesn't work.

All raid guilds that want dragons are to hang out before the north drop off and you just clear the drakes and guardians if they are up by pulling them up the to steps throughout window. When a mob is in window everyone can keep those 4 mobs dead without any ounce of trouble. When the mob pops, all the taggers rush to get the Fte. First guild to successfully get the mob to the Aary pad drops down and kills it. Everyone else stands back and watches. Your guy gets the snipe fte on a wipe and you drop down and engage.

No trains, no issues, everyone is safe to watch, and we all are working together while still competing.

This might not be the way, but there is one out there if we stop making rules, pointing fingers and dismissing out of hand and start theorizing. No one will troll you with harsh judgment. Everyone come up with ideas and among us one will likely be better than what we have now, even if not perfect... Also, observe the rules as you think.

[bktroost]

In SIM repops I'd say that the flurry drakes are the new draco for CT. He who stops to kill draco is sure to lose CT. However, it's not really possible on a repop to manage 2 flurry drakes while managing Aary, so I'd say that a separate repop agreement on those drakes is a good idea, however, is completely separate from the general situation I just suggested.

NToV drop off is easier to get to than West and that stair top would work exactly like VP pad would. Imagine that it is literally the same location and the situation plays out exactly the same. Only difference is the flurry drakes which are on a 2 day pop and the other 2 at drop off which are 72 min? (communally killed 15 times a window?)

[Pint]

its a lot more than 4 mobs to make that a reality.

[bktroost]

its a lot more than 4 mobs to make that a reality.

Is it? There are Only 4 mobs in that area and the 2 pathing flurry drakes on the Aary ledge on 2 day timers. Why Is this not possible?

If you are near the staircase area you won't get aggro from the hatchlings which are on cov faction anyway. And that area is huge if we are talking about just standing and waiting for a mob to get pulled to the Aary fight area.

[Pint]

they are 5 hour timers and its more than just 2 roamers, youre also not accounting for the roamers past aary and all the statics. nobody is just running up to dragons and tossing javs in ntov, they'd all be dead by the time they were around the first curve.

[bktroost]

No, no. I'm saying you stay on the south side of that stair case drop off before the fight and if you don't get aggro you could stand there without invis or hide and not get aggro by the pathers if you just stand there. And yes you are going to need a DA idol or a pair of pullers

[Pint]

I read what youre saying but it just wont work.

[bktroost]

Okay, well VP wasn't figured out in a day. Keep poking it at it guys, you can figure out a way that adheres to server rules!