Shaman: Lets put this Stun vs Regen thing to rest

[gobbosnobbo]

Alright, heres the deal, I'm going to list a bunch of aspects about each, I want others to give some good feedback.

Why? Because this shit needs a last nail in the coffin for good.

First up:

Ogre Frontal Stun Resist -

1) During leveling you can't be stunned while tanking mobs. Debatable less useful at higher levels since if you have 3-4 level 50+ mobs on you, you're probably dead anyway.

2) Great for sitting in a corner and avoiding being interrupted by push mechanics or stun mechanics. However, bash still has an interrupt mechanic even if you don't get stunned, so it can still stop your spell cast.

3) However, even if you are stopped from casting a spell from a bash interrupt (not the stun, the interrupt aspect), you can instantly recast without having to wait.

4) Can move no matter what when facing a mob.

5) Argued that when drawing raid boss agro from a slow, the stun resist can let you get a single heal off, possibly saving your life. However, if you get focused by a boss, you're usually dead anyway.

6) Stun resist is naturally diminished by your slow spell, as the mob doesnt bash as fast when slowed.


Second up:

Troll Regen -

1) Helps when leveling if not twinked, arguably less useful when you get Torpor at max level.

2) Massive regen bonus using innate (18 standing) + fungi (15) + regroth ((15) Total of 48 hp per tick x 6 ticks in a minute for a total of 288 natural hp per minute). Thats 5% of your health every minute if you have a 2,000 hit point pool.

3) Won't save you from being quaded, however, increases overall healing efficiency as you can get more canni's out before using Torpor to top yourself off.

4) Extra regen can help reduce DoT output when casted on you, or recover hp easier on periodic AoE damage from dragon raids.

5) Can completely nullify middling damage from lower level mobs or light hits from higher level mobs.

6) Improves mana efficiency when low by giving more HP to canni off of in emergency situations.

7) Not regen based but you get a snare necklace with a minidot. Nice because root and snares now stack.


Have at it boys, lets end this argument from all aspects, for good.

[Conky]

Seriously we are beating a dead horse here, some people like the regen others like the stun immune...

[Mojo24]

OSeriously we are beating a dead horse here, some people like the regen others like the stun immune...

This.

Trolls are ugly AF. So I went oger on my shaman. No JBB on Iksar was the deal breaker there.

[Troxx]

I can count 0 times thus far on my now 56 shaman where getting stunned made any rea difference in success, failure, or even ease of an encounter. That regen has been with me since day 1 giving me less downtime and more mana. That's (at my level) up to 10 extra hp/tick sitting or 7 tick standing so far ... Otherwise can be considered an extra 3-5 mana a tick permanently over an ogre.

Maybe ogre stun immunity will be worth it at 60 with torpor, but most shamans will never get there.

Old tired argument. I'm a firm advocate of regen. Others like stun immunity. Neither is wrong.

[Troxx]

Ps there are 10 ticks in a minute, not 6

[gobbosnobbo]

Ps there are 10 ticks in a minute, not 6

Whoops, my B. Early.

[Samoht]

OP seems seriously confused about what FSI does and seems to give it credit for a lot of things it does not do.

[Daldaen]

When does Regen work?

-Whenever you aren't at 100% HP

When is a shaman not at 100% HP?

-Whenever fighting a mob taking damage from tanking or aggro from slowing or whenever using Canni

When does frontal stun immunity work?

-Whenever fighting a Melee mob that interrupts with bash, and only if the bash is successful, but does nothing to prevent Melee interrupts from push.

[SamwiseRed]

this isnt complicated.

[Troxx]

When does Regen work?

-Whenever you aren't at 100% HP

When is a shaman not at 100% HP?

-Whenever fighting a mob taking damage from tanking or aggro from slowing or whenever using Canni

When does frontal stun immunity work?

-Whenever fighting a Melee mob that interrupts with bash, and only if the bash is successful, but does nothing to prevent Melee interrupts from push.

Basically this.

The regen is always there. ALWAYS there. Regen is nice for all classes, but for necromancers and shamans in particular (given their dynamic ability to convert mana to hp and vice versa) - regen is more than just nice; it's clutch. FSI is likewise, also very nice. Unlike innate regen, it's highly situational. It's bound to be useful sooner or later - but unless you REALLY needed it at that moment in time, it's basically not doing a damn thing for you.

Troll (or iks) vs Ogre? For me it was a no brainer. Level 60 shamans can solo anything regardless of race. There's nothing an ogre can solo that a troll, barbarian, or iksar can't. That FSI is cute, but at the end of the day it pales in comparison to permanent regen that is always with you and always doing it's magic.

I'm never 100% health. That extra regen equates to more mana and less downtime - doesn't matter if i'm soloing of grouping.

No contest.

[Samoht]

-Whenever fighting a Melee mob that interrupts with bash, and only if the bash is successful, but does nothing to prevent Melee interrupts from push.

A bash from the frontal cone. If from the rear arch, bash will still interrupt. Also, push.

[maskedmelon]

The main problem that I see with you regen analysis is that the standing rate is 12 not 18 and hat means the bonus is 8. All the rest of the regen (regrowth/fungi) can be had without being troll/iksar, so we are really talking about FSI vs. 8hp standing regen bonus or 11hp sitting regen bonus.

8hp/tick is 72hp or roughly one extra CanniIV every 2 minutes for an increased mana regen of 4.1/tick. That translates to an extra torpor every 5 minutes, or an extra slow every 8.5 minutes. The extra torpor translates to an extra 665 - 831 mana over the same period. That translates to an additional 13.6 - 17 mana per tick. Assuming you are able to burn mana and canni enough to take advantage of that, it's pretty damn good. Better than I'd have thought ^^

[Rejji]

I've played a 60 troll ogre and barb shaman and:

Troll regeneration is Def nice and noticed (and best custom helm obv)
Ogre front stun munities are Def nice and noticed, especially if you do a lot of solo/small group things
Barbarian is a white bear

It's all about what's fashionable to you since you're looking at it the most and this is a dress up game :P

[gobbosnobbo]

The main problem that I see with you regen analysis is that the standing rate is 12 not 18 and hat means the bonus is 8. All the rest of the regen (regrowth/fungi) can be had without being troll/iksar, so we are really talking about FSI vs. 8hp standing regen bonus or 11hp sitting regen bonus.

8hp/tick is 72hp or roughly one extra CanniIV every 2 minutes for an increased mana regen of 4.1/tick. That translates to an extra torpor every 5 minutes, or an extra slow every 8.5 minutes. The extra torpor translates to an extra 665 - 831 mana over the same period. That translates to an additional 13.6 - 17 mana per tick. Assuming you are able to burn mana and canni enough to take advantage of that, it's pretty damn good. Better than I'd have thought ^^

Great catch, thank you. I appreciate it!

However, do you think its still worth it though in comparison? We are simply talking 8 hp regen, and you'd have to be canni/taking damage/not full health the entire time to get its full benefit.
Being able to recast instantly on bash interrupt isn't too bad, and keeps you from being stun locked on multiple mobs.

However, do many shaman at 60 even tank multiple mobs unslowed without dying anyway?

[gobbosnobbo]

OP seems seriously confused about what FSI does and seems to give it credit for a lot of things it does not do.

Please elaborate

[Pipip]

I avoided the argument by going barb

[Samoht]

Please elaborate

1) During leveling you can't be stunned while tanking mobs

It does not do this. It only specifically works on mobs from the frontal cone. You can still be stunned by bashes from the side or behind.

2) Great for sitting in a corner and avoiding being interrupted by push mechanics

Also not a perk of FSI. Anybody can stand in the corner to avoid push.

3) However, even if you are stopped from casting a spell from a bash interrupt (not the stun, the interrupt aspect), you can instantly recast without having to wait.

Wut?

4) Can move no matter what when facing a mob.

Dublewut? Not if rooted or trying to move backwards while snared.

5) Argued that when drawing raid boss agro from a slow, the stun resist can let you get a single heal off, possibly saving your life. However, if you get focused by a boss, you're usually dead anyway.

This assumes that A) the boss has bash up and didn't use it on the tank/puller or doesn't flurry and B) you didn't die during the four other attacks that round. That said, if a shaman with FSI was able to survive the round, I'd assume that a shaman without FSI would also be able to survive that and have just as much chance to get a heal off or be healed by another raid member as one with FSI.

6) Stun resist is naturally diminished by your slow spell, as the mob doesnt bash as fast when slowed.

Bash time should be independent of attack speed (unless flurries), but if it works the way you state, this is a perk against FSI because it would be less useful while the mob is slowed.

[Daldaen]

Special attacks are all influenced by haste and slow effects.

Backstab is more frequent with max haste and likewise NPCs bash less frequently when slowed.

Atleast that's my understanding of how it works here and how it should be working here

[Lojik]

I am stunned that there's ANOTHER thread about this.






But would i still be stunned if my shaman was an ogre???

[maskedmelon]

Great catch, thank you. I appreciate it!

However, do you think its still worth it though in comparison? We are simply talking 8 hp regen, and you'd have to be canni/taking damage/not full health the entire time to get its full benefit.


Not quite! ^^) You need to Canni IV 9-11 times and cast torpor once every 5 min period to achieve the benefit. That is around 30 seconds of cast time over a five minute period or 10% of your time, leaving 4.5 minutes to do whatever you normally would. Yes, hitting full health would negate the benefit, but another canni would rectify that unless you are fm also, at which point someone has to ask: what are you doing? ^^

[maskedmelon]

I am stunned that there's ANOTHER thread about this.






But would i still be stunned if my shaman was an ogre???

I wouldn't be stunned if your shaman was an Ogre, though I would be stunned if my own shaman was an Ogre ^^

[gobbosnobbo]

It does not do this. It only specifically works on mobs from the frontal cone. You can still be stunned by bashes from the side or behind.



Also not a perk of FSI. Anybody can stand in the corner to avoid push.



Wut?



Dublewut? Not if rooted or trying to move backwards while snared.



This assumes that A) the boss has bash up and didn't use it on the tank/puller or doesn't flurry and B) you didn't die during the four other attacks that round. That said, if a shaman with FSI was able to survive the round, I'd assume that a shaman without FSI would also be able to survive that and have just as much chance to get a heal off or be healed by another raid member as one with FSI.



Bash time should be independent of attack speed (unless flurries), but if it works the way you state, this is a perk against FSI because it would be less useful while the mob is slowed.

I think you were assuming a lot of things when I was stating.

The post was made with the obvious prior knowledge that stun resist only works from the front, and not accounting extra-ordinary situations that would obviously nullify the effect.

I mean, thats like saying regen doesn't regen because you had dots casted on you nullifying the effect, or you were always in a situation that made it meaningless.

[Troxx]

How much is 8 standing and 11 sitting regen worth to you that stacks with all other regen?

What about those hardest upper 50 levels pre-torpor (the game changer) where it's a measly 7 standing vs 10 sitting?

How much money do people dump on a fungi? Racial regen in the upper 50s is between half and 2/3 of a fungi (that stacks with a fungi), that's there 100% of the time. If anything you could argue that FSI is more of an advantage in the lower levels before the regen differences btw troll/iks and the rest really take off. Hitting levels 51 and 56 respectively were hugely noticable on my shaman, each of those levels was like putting on an extra Ikky regen bp - for free on leveling.

On a tick by tick basis 8/11 might seem like a small thing, but over the course of:
-each minute that's 80-110 extra hp (40-55 extra mana)
-each hour that's 4800-6600 extra hp (2400-3300 extra mana)
-each 4 hour xp session that's 19200-26400 extra hp (9600-13200 extra mana)

On a semi-permanent basis, does FSI realistically do as much for you as the above? How many times did it *really* make a difference other than a minor convenience? Make no mistake, in a game where the max you can meditate is ~20 mana/tick, every little extra bit of hp regen (that can be converted to mana at a 2:1 ratio) is a powerful thing.

Unless afk, a good shaman should never be full health or full mana. On Jolav, if I get above 95% health, I'm hitting canni to drop lower and suckle that sweet sweet regen teet. If I'm full mana for whatever reason, time to refresh haste/regrowth/whatever early. Time spent full health (ie you're also full mana or a terrible shaman) where the regen isn't working for you is time wasted.

The regen is always there, and it should be always working for you.

[suppresso]

Ogre. Now gtfo

Drops mic

[Samoht]

I mean, thats like saying regen doesn't regen because you had dots casted on you nullifying the effect, or you were always in a situation that made it meaningless.

Regen would still be better than FSI in such a situation. A more apt comparison would be to say "how much are you regenning when you're at full health" but seriously, how often does a good shaman that's using cannibalize reach 100% HP.

[maestrom]

Inny trolls can use the snare neck.

How useful is this in real life? I assume its less important 56+ with PE. But if you're root rotting 1-2 baddies, how realistic is it to keep snare on them so when root breaks they don't ever get close enough to interrupt your root?

[Pyrocat]

Maybe ogre stun immunity will be worth it at 60 with torpor, but most shamans will never get there.

Nah. I'm a 60 troll with torpor. Only times I would be tanking something and might get stunned:

1) drawing aggro on a raid boss. I'm dead in 2 seconds anyway, stun doesn't matter.

2) fighting named mobs. I don't have trouble fighting named mobs if a) they can be slowed b) they aren't casters. A mob getting a lucky bash off that interrupts torpor isn't a big deal because I'll be able to easily cast torpor again in time to heal myself, or switch to Chloroblast and then torpor. If it's a caster I'll either heal through their nukes and dispells and stuns and be fine or I'll die from nukes/stuns.

3) fighting multiple mobs. If by some miracle they are all in front of me and not behind, and they're not slowed, I'm dead anyway unless I have AE slow memmed. This is the one case where maybe I could channel through a bunch of unslowed hits and get AE slow off whereas a bash would make me dead for sure. This almost never comes up though, and I never have AE slow memmed anyways.

4) soloing dragons in WW. If I die from this it's either from a wandering dragon, or from not being able to out heal the DPS of the AE+melee+canni and eventually running oom. Sure a dragon might get off a lucky bash and interrupt torpor but generally I'm going into this fight with enough HP that I start off torpor heals at 70% and if I get interrupted I'll just try again.

Whereas all of the situations above, passive regen helps either a little or a lot. Those long 20 minute soloing dragons in WW fights? Passive regen helps A LOT. Fighting those 1 million hp raid mobs, or buffing an entire raid? Passive regen helps mana regen so you can spend less time torporing yourself and more time cannibalizing. Fighting named mobs? Passive regen helps a little, mostly in recovery time between fights allowing you to engage to the named mob faster before respawns.

This is also why you'll never sell your fungi on your shaman. Even after I get a vindi VP (which is, IMO, best in slot for shaman BP) I will still keep my fungi around for cases where I'm not tanking or taking AE damage. Lvl 60 troll/iksar regen + fungi + regrowth is just a stupid amount of regen.

Still though, I laugh at the premise of this thread, people are going to pick what they like the most and thus this argument will never die. The differences between the benefits of passive regen and stun immunity aren't game breaking, they won't determine whether or not you make it into a raid guild, groups won't care, the only person that really cares is yourself, so just play what you want. Unless you're a necro, in which case pick Iksar you dumb fucker.

[Pyrocat]

Inny trolls can use the snare neck.

How useful is this in real life? I assume its less important 56+ with PE. But if you're root rotting 1-2 baddies, how realistic is it to keep snare on them so when root breaks they don't ever get close enough to interrupt your root?

Not realistic. The snare is barely a snare and it only lasts 36 seconds. Marginally useful when you're fighting in a dungeon with no snare class (or solo) and a mob starts to run.

[Pyrocat]

When does frontal stun immunity work?

-Whenever fighting a Melee mob that interrupts with bash, and only if the bash is successful, but does nothing to prevent Melee interrupts from push.

I'm restating, but this is the main point. The ONLY time you'll benefit from FSI is when you're facing a mob, it bashes, and the bash doesn't miss. This isn't a common occurrence, especially if the mob is slowed and you're a decently geared shaman. And even then, it's not guaranteed to make a big difference, you'd still more than likely get the spell off in time after the initial bash.

Whereas...


The regen is always there. ALWAYS there. Regen is nice for all classes, but for necromancers and shamans in particular (given their dynamic ability to convert mana to hp and vice versa) - regen is more than just nice; it's clutch.

[Jimjam]

Not realistic. The snare is barely a snare and it only lasts 36 seconds. Marginally useful when you're fighting in a dungeon with no snare class (or solo) and a mob starts to run.

I've found snare now stacks well with root in case root breaks early, but on a shaman that can cannibalise would the time spent casting this snare be better spent casting something else?

[Orruar]

Regen would still be better than FSI in such a situation. A more apt comparison would be to say "how much are you regenning when you're at full health" but seriously, how often does a good shaman that's using cannibalize reach 100% HP.

And that's the answer to this question. Ogre is a great choice for people who aren't perhaps the brightest and quickest players. It gives a little safety cushion for those who need it. Troll is better, but it requires you play a little better to maximize the benefits. In addition to the regen issue, a good troll shaman has implicit FSI if he times his important spell casts correctly. It's really not hard to keep track of when the bash is coming and cast your torpor/slow before/after it, only risking a canni getting interrupted.

[Orruar]

Nah. I'm a 60 troll with torpor. Only times I would be tanking something and might get stunned:

3) fighting multiple mobs. If by some miracle they are all in front of me and not behind, and they're not slowed, I'm dead anyway unless I have AE slow memmed. This is the one case where maybe I could channel through a bunch of unslowed hits and get AE slow off whereas a bash would make me dead for sure. This almost never comes up though, and I never have AE slow memmed anyways.

Ideally you'd have some root nets ready to go to handle multiple mobs like that. FSI is hardly helpful when you're using instacast nets. The only situation that I ever thought to myself "FSI would be nice to have right now" is when powerleveling. I'd pull 6-8 kobolds in solb and keep them unslowed so ds could do as much damage as possible. In that case, I kind of wanted to be able to avoid bash interrupts, but it still wasn't a make-or-break skill.