Guild Mentalities

[Jhaaz]

Basicallly there are 50 lvls right now on this server. Well what I dont really get is this so called friendly guilds that have lvl restrictions in order to get in to their guild. My ponder is I want to join a group of people and have fun with them from 1st to 50th, not wait till 46th lvl or whatever to join, most of the "fun" stuff is over by then, and you are just down to the raid grind. I dont really see why any guild that has alts or toons under their lvl req would make a lvl requirement for new people. I dont think there is a all 50th lvl guild on this server, cause I am pretty sure every guild has lower lvl toons in it type. And having to join one guild while one has to "wait" till they reach a certain lvl to join another guild is lame. Everyone eventually gets to max lvl.

In my experience people dont really get to know other people really well unless they do some 1 group stuff together, cause sure as hell cant get to know someone in a herd of 40 or so people on a raid. Yeh so "applications" and all that other stuff doesnt really tell you anything about someone or about the guild, accept maybe that they are applying to a job instead of playing a game. And the funniest of all is the uber guilds that tell you to get to know the guild better, but dont tag or give them access to guild chat, that is an oxymoron.

And the ones that claim to be causal or causal-raiding guild and yet they want all new people to be a certain lvl to join... why what difference does that make if you not raiding all the time.

And I have seen these patterns in most fantasy online games, just doesnt make since here imho.

[Odeseus]

Few things come to mind.

1) You want people who will stick around. Let's face it, if you spend all the hours needed to hit 46+, you will not suddenly abandon that character. At a lower level, say 20, it is much more likely to reroll something else and/or not stick around.

2) Along those same lines, you don't want to invest time, energy and possibly loot/plat to a toon that won't stick around. There isn't much that is quite as frustrating as helping someone out to get uber_item_x for them to just leave the guild or simply stop playing because they aren't having much fun in p99.

3) You want good players. It doesn't take much to get to say, level 20. It isn't easy but you don't have to be a great player to manage it. Particularly for classes like mages. However, level 46+ is definitely not easy to do. If you can manage that, chances are high that you at least kind of know your class/know how to play/are at least an average player.

4) You want want to avoid players with bad reputations. If you are a low level and are a complete ass, chances are high that only a few people know you and know you're someone to be avoided. At level 46+, you are much more likely to be known to a greater portion of the server (for good or bad). And at that level, guilds are much less likely to tag someone who will hurt their reputation on this server. In a small community like this, rep matters.

5) *for raid guilds only* For raiding guilds, they want someone who will actually raid and be useful in said raids. Until about 46, you are more or less useless (although this is just an assumption on my part, since I'm not part of a raid guild, nor am I anywhere close to 46). No reason to tag lower levels if they can't help you in raids anyway.

These are just the reasons I can think of off the top of my head as to why you would put a high level requirement on applications. I understand and agree that there should be more lower level guilds, but there are a few out there and you should try them out.

[Taluvill]

Few things come to mind.

1) You want people who will stick around. Let's face it, if you spend all the hours needed to hit 46+, you will not suddenly abandon that character. At a lower level, say 20, it is much more likely to reroll something else and/or not stick around.

2) Along those same lines, you don't want to invest time, energy and possibly loot/plat to a toon that won't stick around. There isn't much that is quite as frustrating as helping someone out to get uber_item_x for them to just leave the guild or simply stop playing because they aren't having much fun in p99.

3) You want good players. It doesn't take much to get to say, level 20. It isn't easy but you don't have to be a great player to manage it. Particularly for classes like mages. However, level 46+ is definitely not easy to do. If you can manage that, chances are high that you at least kind of know your class/know how to play/are at least an average player.

4) You want want to avoid players with bad reputations. If you are a low level and are a complete ass, chances are high that only a few people know you and know you're someone to be avoided. At level 46+, you are much more likely to be known to a greater portion of the server (for good or bad). And at that level, guilds are much less likely to tag someone who will hurt their reputation on this server. In a small community like this, rep matters.

5) *for raid guilds only* For raiding guilds, they want someone who will actually raid and be useful in said raids. Until about 46, you are more or less useless (although this is just an assumption on my part, since I'm not part of a raid guild, nor am I anywhere close to 46). No reason to tag lower levels if they can't help you in raids anyway.

These are just the reasons I can think of off the top of my head as to why you would put a high level requirement on applications. I understand and agree that there should be more lower level guilds, but there are a few out there and you should try them out.

He hit the nail on the head there.

If your under 46 in a raiding guild, you can come sit with them for naggy and vox, but thats about it. if your a wizard or a druid, you can help with mobilization, but unless your a good friend of someones, why risk it or take the hassle?

You would be extremely surprised how well you can get to know people in a raid situation of 40+. In a raiding guild, good players can watch other players and tell pretty immediately if they are good, bad, or in between. People also talk on raids, and its part of what keeps it fun. If you sit there and are shy the whole time, you won't make any friends and you will sit there raiding monotonously. You have no idea how many friends I've made on raids just saying something stupid or funny and chatting about it for awhile.

The bad reputation thing is a serious concern. On a server like this, reputation means everything and a lot of us older players remember what happened and who said/did what back when fear was being contested, Naggy was being trained for, and when hate opened as well. So when you think of it like that, not much of anything is forgotten, and I imagine in a small community like this (although I expect it to grow with kunark through velious) a lot of people will remember a lot of what you do/say and what you post on the forums.

TLDR: Sorry for the wall of text, but there are guilds out there that invite you 1-50 and then raid, but you don't see many of them contesting for spawns in the planes/dragons. It's a different mentality that you have to adopt and accept, or just be the type of person to be a part of it. He hit everything perfectly.

[karsten]

In a raiding guild, good players can watch other players and tell pretty immediately if they are good, bad, or in between

thats why we didn't invite taluvill OH SNAP


<3

[Taluvill]

thats why we didn't invite taluvill OH SNAP


<3

= ) Much love bro, I ain't hatin.

[Asher]

He hit the nail on the head there.

If your under 46 in a raiding guild, you can come sit with them for naggy and vox, but thats about it. if your a wizard or a druid, you can help with mobilization, but unless your a good friend of someones, why risk it or take the hassle?

You would be extremely surprised how well you can get to know people in a raid situation of 40+. In a raiding guild, good players can watch other players and tell pretty immediately if they are good, bad, or in between. People also talk on raids, and its part of what keeps it fun. If you sit there and are shy the whole time, you won't make any friends and you will sit there raiding monotonously. You have no idea how many friends I've made on raids just saying something stupid or funny and chatting about it for awhile.

--- snip ---


I think you missed the point of the OPs message. He wants to join the guild at a lower level so he can get to know people and group up and level with their alts etc. If they are only willing to accept you at the highest levels there isn't really much time to establish a relationship or anything. Sure he wouldn't be able to assist on Planes raids or Vox or Naggy kills but during downtime, which I am sure there is a lot of since raid targets are killed as they spawn, he would like to be able to group with their alts.

I had a somewhat similar situation happen to me. I leveled to 46ish and wanted to get to know some raid guilds. I didn't want to apply anywhere when I was lower level because I am pretty particular about guilds I join and I like to stick it out with the guild I join. I sent some tells to some guild recruiters and wanted to get in on a couple raids with them to get to know them. Some of the smaller raid guilds had no problem taking me on a raid or two to get to know me and some others said I had to apply before they would "get to know me".

I ended up getting a temp tag by one of the guilds I raided with for communication purposes and someone from another guild acted like I just betrayed him. Apparently, raiding with multiple guilds to see which is the best fit isn't how I am supposed to conduct myself. I am sorry, if your guild requires me to apply just so I can get to know you I am going to look elsewhere, at least at first.

I was going to start popping into forums to try and get in on some groups with these guilds so I could get to know people but I think at 50 there isn't much grouping going on and it would is mainly pharming or leveling alts.

I probably should have just joined a guild when I was lower level and grew with that guild. I didn't expect drama over this.

/rant off

Yitro - 47 Wizard

[Odeseus]

These are just the reasons I can think of off the top of my head as to why you would put a high level requirement on applications. I understand and agree that there should be more lower level guilds, but there are a few out there and you should try them out.

I merely gave reasons why there are level requirements. I actually agree with the OP's larger point that there should be more options for lower level people. If I wasn't a mage and able to solo my way up to this point, I don't know how I would have been able to stand not having someone to talk to, to get help from and to group with. Particularly if your first toon is a melee, you kinda need a guild.

I'm level 34 now and still guildless, mainly because I know that once I join a guild, I probably won't be leaving unless all hell breaks loose. I'm stupidly loyal like that and I know it. So I know that if I join a lower end guild that would actually accept me at 34, I know I will want to leave to raid with some of the big boys eventually. And I don't want to "betray" the lower level guild by leaving. So I create for myself a catch-22.

So right now I'm avoiding making any decisions until I'm closer to 50 :rolleyes:

[Trimm]

As someone who handles some applicants and recruiting of a raiding guild, it is a bit of a balancing act. One one hand, we'd love to get to know players from a low level up and introduce them to our way of raiding and conducting ourselves, but on the other hand you want higher level committed players who will stick with you for the long haul. Whats to say the first cant also be the latter? Nothing really, its just been our experience that lower level applicants tend to burn out, get bored or simply vanish more than higher level ones.

We try to balance the two out by allowing players to submit applications before they are 46 to show they are interested in being a part of us, but we don't start the formal process until 46. That way, we can know your name and be on the look out for you when we are running around not raiding. Most all level 50 raiding mains have alts who are leveling up, so we try to include those people when looking for groups in their level range.

As stated before, 46 is the magical number in which you can zone into Fear, Hate and Sky where 90% of the weekly raiding takes place.

Edit: Also, we make it a point not to recruit players from other guilds. We don't like when it happens to us, and we don't want to do it to others. However, we also understand that many players want to be in guilds before 46, and have no problem with that. Its another balancing act that is tough because every guild wants quality players, but usually the same quality players want to level within an established guild. Our process is a little stricter than most, but its worked out very well for us, so unless something drastic happens it's what we'll continue to follow.

[korpse]

The Apostle's Doctrine is a guild that recruits based on guild members current lvl range. We started out as recruiting only players between 1-10. Now as everyone has been leveling up together, we recruit 10-20. Other guilds may follow a similar path. Send a tell to Stepka or any other members in game if you're interested.

[President]

Divinity started with zero level restriction.

Then it was level 30, immediate tag.

Then it was level 36, immediate tag, then a vote after a few weeks.

Then it was level 40, immediate tag, then a vote after a few weeks.

Then it was level 46, immediate tag, then a vote after a few weeks.

Now its level 46, raid for a few weeks & get to know people, temp tag, vote after a few weeks.

We *wanted* to be friendly to the casual player, but the casual player kept fucking ruining things that it had to be changed. How can you run a guild when someone joins at level 30, plays till level 40, takes a 4 month break, comes back and gets level 46 and goes RAWR I WANT RAID LOOTS IM A MEMBER! When they have contributed nothing to the guild, and 50% of the active players have never even heard of them.

There are thousands of other scenarios in which ease of recruiting and casualness caused issues, especially in this game where a high percentage of people don't make it past level 20, or 30, or 40. This happened all too often.


Hate the player, not the game.

[Aadill]

Yeah the low/mid-level vacuum in raiding guilds has more to do with the lack of substance for the non-raiding player. 9/10 they'll just get bored regardless of the kind of community in the guild. There's nothing to do but group with alts, if they aren't busy.

If you are starting from 40 or something and are already grouping with members during off-raid time you might get a good feel for the kind of players you want to group with not only in how they interact with each other but also in how they interact with the game. When applying to a guild they're doing the same to you. Even on a low level character you might be making some friends in high places :)

[guineapig]

Keep an eye out for alts. Even raid guilds have tagged alts running around all over the place.

Sue your /who all commands and seek out some of these players and try to get in groups with them. Lots of recruiting happens this way. before you know it you have spent 5-10 levels getting to know a few people from a guild and those very same people will end up being your sponsor when it's time for you to apply.

Hang in there man!

[Asher]

--- snip ---

they have contributed nothing to the guild, and 50% of the active players have never even heard of them.

--- snip ---

Hate the player, not the game.

That sounds like what I would say to them before telling them to STFU and get to the back of the line. If they don't like it boot them.

No reason to punish all people for being lower level.

Just my thoughts not trying to pick on any one guild in particular.

Yitro - 47 Wizard

[Aadill]

I wouldn't consider that punishing people of lower level - it's hard to have enough low levels in a guild whose purpose is to beat the crap out of the high level stuff without them getting bored. Once they get bored it's like, "sorry buddy we've moved on and now you have to catch up again." It makes sense to just have people that are willing to keep up with the pace of the rest of the guild. Considering the size of this server it's very easy to run into anyone from any guild and to get a feel for their membership. Player interactions are fairly commonplace... if they aren't, start sending /tells!

[President]

As I said, that is one example of thousands.

I think you forget how the guild system works in this game. "Booting" someone is not as easy as it sounds. This isn't WoW where you can kick someone out of the guild at any given time whether they are logged in or not. You have to be in the same zone, they have to be online, and I believe you have to even be targeting them.

[Aadill]

Ha.. that, too. Membership is precious 'round these here parts. Some consideration has to go into making you a part of a community :)

[Asher]

As I said, that is one example of thousands.

I think you forget how the guild system works in this game. "Booting" someone is not as easy as it sounds. This isn't WoW where you can kick someone out of the guild at any given time whether they are logged in or not. You have to be in the same zone, they have to be online, and I believe you have to even be targeting them.

That is true. If they wanted to be asshats they would still have access to your guild chat but you could easily block them from your forums and excommunicate them from your raids and if they were being complete assholes I am sure the GMs could manually remove the tag.

I understand why guilds do what they do it is just frustrating to the new players who don't really get much of a chance to get to know the guilds that we think we would like to join.

Yitro - 47 Wizard

[Maneuk]

/agree. Got to be there. It't hard to get to know people, let alone all of the folks already in a guild that conceivably know each other. I remember in the old days, how folks would want to tag all the time and I was like- I don't even know you. And I was a mage so as a mage I really needed to develop social and player skills to be able to hook up consistently with those on my friends lists that I had good groups with. If they were tagged, and I saw another member of that guild I would say hello and ask if they know that person on my friedns list, if they did not, that spoke volumes to me. If they did and it was positive, that spoke volumes more because I knew if I grouped with them, they could tag back to their member to compare experiences and I could to the same.

[to0p]

And the ones that claim to be causal or causal-raiding guild and yet they want all new people to be a certain lvl to join...

You never heard of http://peacepipeguild.com

[Jhaaz]

Divinity started with zero level restriction.

Then it was level 30, immediate tag.

Then it was level 36, immediate tag, then a vote after a few weeks.

Then it was level 40, immediate tag, then a vote after a few weeks.

Then it was level 46, immediate tag, then a vote after a few weeks.

Now its level 46, raid for a few weeks & get to know people, temp tag, vote after a few weeks.

We *wanted* to be friendly to the casual player, but the casual player kept fucking ruining things that it had to be changed. How can you run a guild when someone joins at level 30, plays till level 40, takes a 4 month break, comes back and gets level 46 and goes RAWR I WANT RAID LOOTS IM A MEMBER! When they have contributed nothing to the guild, and 50% of the active players have never even heard of them.

There are thousands of other scenarios in which ease of recruiting and casualness caused issues, especially in this game where a high percentage of people don't make it past level 20, or 30, or 40. This happened all too often.


Hate the player, not the game.


That is my point, doesnt matter how long people play, whether it is 2 weeks or 6 months, everyone will stop playing their toon at some point. The point I was making is that you can enjoy anyone's company in a guild regardless of what lvl they are or how long they play. HIgh lvls get bored just as much as lower lvls do. Lower lvls actually have something to do, like lvl up. In reality when you invite someone into your guild you dont know how long they will be playing, and it shouldnt matter, just have fun with they during the time they are active.

There is more to this game than just raiding, that is only one aspect of it. If you limit your guild to just raiding, then your guild will miss out on the lvling up part. Guild contribution should not be just on some job performance, but contributing by bringing a good sense of humor or even some ideas that others havent thought about or information that others dont have, etc etc. None of those things have anything to do with lvl or class.

You can raid without placing lvl requirements on new people, it isnt necessary, I have seen it before in other guilds.

[President]

That is my point, doesnt matter how long people play, whether it is 2 weeks or 6 months, everyone will stop playing their toon at some point. The point I was making is that you can enjoy anyone's company in a guild regardless of what lvl they are or how long they play. HIgh lvls get bored just as much as lower lvls do. Lower lvls actually have something to do, like lvl up. In reality when you invite someone into your guild you dont know how long they will be playing, and it shouldnt matter, just have fun with they during the time they are active.

There is more to this game than just raiding, that is only one aspect of it. If you limit your guild to just raiding, then your guild will miss out on the lvling up part. Guild contribution should not be just on some job performance, but contributing by bringing a good sense of humor or even some ideas that others havent thought about or information that others dont have, etc etc. None of those things have anything to do with lvl or class.

You can raid without placing lvl requirements on new people, it isnt necessary, I have seen it before in other guilds.

You don't get it.

[Rejuvenation]

You need to keep in mind that most of these guilds get a substantial amount of applications per week. Creating a level filter allows for a more managable process of selecting legitimate applicants for these guilds. I'm fortunate enough to be in a guild with very very good recruiters/applications officers, and I would hate to do their job, as it is much more work than most people would realize.

One thing you don't realize is that most people who join guilds with higher level restrictions also develop a sense of pride in joining that guild. You put in the effort to be considered a legitimate applicant, and have created a reputation that you are proud of. I don't even want to know the amount of people that start playing on this server, ready to relive the classic experience, only to walk away by the time they get to the mid-30s. I completely understand the notion of wanting to develop relationships with members of more exclusive guilds, but there are many ways of doing this.

Requiring people to reach a substantial level also allows a person to build their reputation. It's not easy to get a good indication of someones personality and character by simply attending a raid with them, because honestly most people are very quiet. If you have created a good reputation, you will likely be surprised by the support of guild members who witnessed your behavior that are in the guild you are applying to.

Let's be honest...leveling to 46 doesn't take skill, it takes time and patience. These are two characteristics that's most top end guilds really require for its members. Requirements may be annoying, but they are just like waiting out that long camp to finally get that item that you wanted so badly. You will appreciate it more and won't take your opportunities for granted.

When you were a freshman in college, did you honestly know what you wanted to do with your life? Probably not. Leveling without concern of other guilds gives you the time to listen to server drama and play the field to see what guild you really would fit in to best. I'm sorry that you feel that you arent being given a chance, but in the long run, the journey will help you more than you probably would assume.

[Jhaaz]

You need to keep in mind that most of these guilds get a substantial amount of applications per week. Creating a level filter allows for a more managable process of selecting legitimate applicants for these guilds. I'm fortunate enough to be in a guild with very very good recruiters/applications officers, and I would hate to do their job, as it is much more work than most people would realize.

One thing you don't realize is that most people who join guilds with higher level restrictions also develop a sense of pride in joining that guild. You put in the effort to be considered a legitimate applicant, and have created a reputation that you are proud of. I don't even want to know the amount of people that start playing on this server, ready to relive the classic experience, only to walk away by the time they get to the mid-30s. I completely understand the notion of wanting to develop relationships with members of more exclusive guilds, but there are many ways of doing this.

Requiring people to reach a substantial level also allows a person to build their reputation. It's not easy to get a good indication of someones personality and character by simply attending a raid with them, because honestly most people are very quiet. If you have created a good reputation, you will likely be surprised by the support of guild members who witnessed your behavior that are in the guild you are applying to.

Let's be honest...leveling to 46 doesn't take skill, it takes time and patience. These are two characteristics that's most top end guilds really require for its members. Requirements may be annoying, but they are just like waiting out that long camp to finally get that item that you wanted so badly. You will appreciate it more and won't take your opportunities for granted.

When you were a freshman in college, did you honestly know what you wanted to do with your life? Probably not. Leveling without concern of other guilds gives you the time to listen to server drama and play the field to see what guild you really would fit in to best. I'm sorry that you feel that you arent being given a chance, but in the long run, the journey will help you more than you probably would assume.

Easy, eliminate the application process, its worthless anyway, you dont know what someone is like until they been in your guild for a little while anyway. Doesnt matter if a guy stops playing at 30th or 10th or whatever, really doesnt, the people that are higher lvl in the guild will still raid regardless, so that aurguement doesnt hold water. In other words, lower lvl people have no impact on a guilds ability to raid. If your short on a class to raid with, you can advertise that you need some 46th lvl + of XXXX class, that doesnt mean that you need to stop accepting lower lvl people, ...one thing doesnt affect the other. The only reason to have a 46th lvl requirement on all members is elitism, IE: chest thumping mentallity. Most of the games memories are lvling up with new friends, kinda hard to do that in a guild that only accepts 46th lvl or higher toons.

[Cyrius]

Sorry, but you obviously have no clue.

[Hasbinbad]

Sorry, but you obviously have no clue.
I'm totally getting a clue right now.

[Tillan]

I have a raging clue right now

[jeffd]

blah blah

why would you want to join a guild whose policies you disagree with anyway?

there are plenty of mass-recruiting casual guilds - go join one.

[Cyrius]

I'm totally getting a clue right now.

get-a-clue (http://www.mysterynet.com/get/)!

[Savok]

I have 11+ years on Live playing a bard (and still do). I raid 3 - 5 times a week.
I admin theconcerthall.net and am involved with the communities there and here. I'm not an asshat.

Yet because I'm only level 11 I would have no chance of joining a bigger raiding guild. Its not because of my skill but because of my level. Nobody in a guild has any idea of how good I am until they saw me in action (or know me from Live) and I wouldn't expect them too.

My current guild is all but dead :( so if anyone feel like PL'ing up an experienced bard I'll take any offers!

[Odeseus]

I have 11+ years on Live playing a bard (and still do). I raid 3 - 5 times a week.
I admin theconcerthall.net and am involved with the communities there and here. I'm not an asshat.

This right here is the key to the whole argument. You claim to be very experienced and a good player (and you probably are), but how do I know you're not just BSing me? How can I prove what you say is accurate?

Talking with you could give me some sense, but just because you know a ton doesn't mean you can execute. So that doesn't tell the whole story.

I can group with you, but at level 11, you don't have nearly all of the spells and skills that you will at endgame. Nor are the encounters at 11 tough enough for me to know if you're really good or if the mobs are just easy.

I can do a bunch of independent research to see if you are who you claim you are. But do I want to spend this much time for EACH person that expresses interest? No one has that much time?

Sorry, but claiming you're totally awesome doesn't matter a whole lot. I could claim the same thing, and even a horrible player will claim it. We all think we are exceptional players, even when we are not.

It is true that level is a rather arbitrary measuring stick, but it is the easiest measuring stick to use. And when it comes down to it, that ease is probably why it is used instead of any other sort of way to see if you are up to snuff for a guild.

[girth]

I'm totally getting a clue right now.

http://southparkstudios-intl.mtvnimages.com/shared/sps/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/import/season_10/sp_1009_02_v6.jpg

[Savok]

Thats the point I was making, all judgments are arbitrary.

I wouldn't expect to get into a guild based on my name or experience on a forum. At level 11 I'm in no real position to prove or disprove to you how good I am (unless your already judging me on an alt..) but I'm pretty much stuck with PU groups until I get to a decent level because I can't join a guild's /gu until I reach a the magic #.

One person posted that he got to know people in the guild by chatting and cracking jokes etc in group/guild chat. How can I prove myself if I'm not given a chance again until I'm a certain level. What makes the fact that you see how 'good I am' on a raid when 90% of the time your not even involved with an app (unless your seeing them die on your screen too much) to see what they are adding to your guild? Just logging in a turning up to raids shouldn't count as a 'yeah they are good' mentality. RA!= good.

[vinx]

As I said, that is one example of thousands.

I think you forget how the guild system works in this game. "Booting" someone is not as easy as it sounds. This isn't WoW where you can kick someone out of the guild at any given time whether they are logged in or not. You have to be in the same zone, they have to be online, and I believe you have to even be targeting them.
Not true, you can boot someone x-zone as long as they are online.