fix charm

[ammut]

Right now charm is broken. An enchanter shouldn't be able to charm an npc 7 levels higher than him for full duration.

[Dabamf]

Charm has been a total catastrophe of a spell since day 1. Charm was almost never used in raids as it was way too short and unpredictable, and charisma didn't matter so much. I could charm lguk mobs on my necro with like 120 cha long enough to kill the pet and FD. Enchanters with 200 could charm for longer, but it was still incredibly unpredictable and not even remotely close to the duration that they can do now.a

The current game has a newer charm/charisma formula and makes enchanters preposterously overpowered. I don't see it going away any time soon.

[Jete]

I think the Charm formula is correct at least from a bard stand point.

I can charm yellows / reds for about 20 seconds at most with my mana using lvl 39 charm. As for blues / light blues I use my non mana charm which breaks about.. 60% of the time in the worst case scenario. (exactly like it should =P ) Any nerf to the current Charm would render bard charm even more useless than it used to be - since its not possible to charm kite due to faction not working.

This is at 180 CHA.

Edit- If this was truly classic charm would have no level cap as well. The bard mana using charm was put in the game sometime before Kunark. It was possible to charm raid mobs before then. So if anything, get rid of bard mana using charm, and take the lvl cap off the other one. GG. =P

[Hasbinbad]

As I understand it, charming at high levels with high efficacy is only possible with 255 charisma. I can assure you that this emulates live quite well at least during the kunark -> pop era, as I played a raiding enchanter during that period. The fact is that nobody seriously pumped charisma back in the day, so while this is seen as non-classic, it actually is.

[guineapig]

You have to also consider the fact that without charm enchanters provide almost zero DPS on a raid (outside of haste/clarity) since so many mobs have tons or magic resistance and that's the only branch of magic we have access to.

I can't vouch for how it was on live or how it is now with 200+ MR.

I can say that the one time I attempted to charm on this server was in my low 30's in Splitpaw. I had maybe 135 charisma at the time and I tashed/charmed one of the light blue con gnolls at the entrance (so it was much lower level than me). The charm never lasted more than a minute and was quite annoying. At that point the group decided to find a tank and I put my charm spell away.

[Scrooge]

Enchanter were never meant to be DPS in the first place, the option to Charm on live always carried a big risk with it for the user, and I don't think I ever remember it being as stable as it is here...not that I have any complaints, heh.

[Dabamf]

Charm in live was not even close to how it is here. I knew enchanters who had full charisma sets. Charm still never lasted more than a couple minutes at best. And it was much more inconsistent. And for raid-ish mobs like FGs, charm broke in <1 minute all the time. Charming any mob to kill a raid encounter (like charming a fetid to kill draco or CT) was absolutely out of the question, as charm was likely to break, kill the enchanter then go nuts on the raid. Can anyone remember charming mobs to assist in raid encounters? I'd be quite surprised.

I could also charm clear lguk lord solo as a nec with only a shitty charisma set. Charisma wasn't as important, so even with a DE nec's low charisma, it usually lasted long enough for my pet to die (the goal) and me to FD.

On this server, charisma seems to quite clearly affect charm duration linearly. 60 charisma = 1-2 second charm, every time. 120 charisma = 10 seconds (on green). 160 = 20+. Etc. On live it was MUCH more volatile. 60 charisma sometimes lasted 20 seconds or more. 160 sometimes broke in 4 seconds. Etc

[President]

Other than a CH rotation and a MT I don't remember much strategy at all back in the day lol.

I can't say I don't find it a bit overpowered but I don't really think its a serious problem. I don't remember what charm was like back in the day but even in this post we have mixed reviews. What I have noticed though is everyone seems to have a brain about them and knows what the hell is up. The enchanters I have grouped and played with that decided to charm always re applied the spell well before it had a chance at breaking between fights and were conscious of the charm time.

[Ghesta]

This is so odd. I was coming here to say that charm is broken and I find a thread that states the exact opposite of my opinion.

I don't know about enchanter / necro / bard charm. Sorry I just don't. I'm a druid. Played a druid for 7 years. I played during blue box and was leveling my druid during that era. Around the teens when my druid got her first charm spell I used to hang out in the Karana's and charm even con animals and pet kite all day long.

Charm would last anywhere from 30 seconds to several minutes, and if I could get an enchanter to Tash the mob before I charmed it, it would very often last for the duration of Tash.

Now this was often without ANY CHA gear whatsoever. None, 75 cha and I'd have mobs for usually a few minutes at a time.



That being said in the current server build, I can't charm a blue mob for more then 18 seconds at the most. When I was grouping in oasis in my teens I even had a high level enchanter tash a blue con caimen before I charmed it, and it was still breaking immediately, 6-24 seconds.

This isn't a huge deal for me as a druid as it is for enchanters, but it's certainly not right. I know from experience that I should be able to hold animals for several minutes without a break with no problem, and it's just not happening.

[Jify]

It's all about CHA. I difference between unbuffed at 75 CHA and buffed at 185 CHA is night and day.

It seems appropriate duration for bards at least. Once in a blue moon I'll get a full 60s on charm, but most of the time in PoHate it is <30 on yellows, and <45 on evens. Does the trick though. ;)

[Yoite]

ya would be nice if it was fixed for my necro. I'm lazy and dont wanna get all that CHA gear. I just wanna solo lord easy mode style.

[The Situation]

I only ever played from 99-Velious. Enchanters were never able to charm the way they are here on this server. For shore!

[guineapig]

There are two different but related things being discussed in this thread.

Ghesta for example is having an issue with charm breaking almost immediately with low charisma regardless of the fact that the magic resistance of the mob has been significantly reduced.

The other issue is about enchanters who can hold charms with full durations on a fairly consistent basis.

I will add one more part to this. When I got my first charm spell I too was experiencing the same issue of charms instantly breaking even after I tashed them. At the time my charisma was in the 130's. Now that I can get my charisma over 200 I don't have such issue.

I however, always make sure to ditch pet/stun/tash/recharm the mob the very moment that the original tash fades and I always keep my charisma buff on as well. (I am fairly meticulous about it.) On numerous occasions I have had charm break unexpectedly while tash was still on the mob. In nearly every instance it ended up being right after I changed out of a charisma gear item or my charisma buff dropped thereby lowering my charisma under 200.

As others have stated the issue is not with the spell itself (be it low level charm, high level charm, bard charm, chanter charm, druid charm, etc). The issue is how the game is calculating the importance of charisma over other things like magic resistance and mob level. The charisma check is taking precedence over everything else and 200 seems to be some sort of hard cap.


I'm curious if this is something that is related specifically to P1999 or if it's EQEmu wide?
has anyone played a charm class on any other emu servers that could shed some light for us?

[drplump]

Charm was this overpowered back when the Guildwars server was running as well. It was great keeping another player permacharmed no matter their magic resist.

[Malrubius]

There are two different but related things being discussed in this thread.

Ghesta for example is having an issue with charm breaking almost immediately with low charisma regardless of the fact that the magic resistance of the mob has been significantly reduced.

The other issue is about enchanters who can hold charms with full durations on a fairly consistent basis.

I will add one more part to this. When I got my first charm spell I too was experiencing the same issue of charms instantly breaking even after I tashed them. At the time my charisma was in the 130's. Now that I can get my charisma over 200 I don't have such issue.

I however, always make sure to ditch pet/stun/tash/recharm the mob the very moment that the original tash fades and I always keep my charisma buff on as well. (I am fairly meticulous about it.) On numerous occasions I have had charm break unexpectedly while tash was still on the mob. In nearly every instance it ended up being right after I changed out of a charisma gear item or my charisma buff dropped thereby lowering my charisma under 200.

As others have stated the issue is not with the spell itself (be it low level charm, high level charm, bard charm, chanter charm, druid charm, etc). The issue is how the game is calculating the importance of charisma over other things like magic resistance and mob level. The charisma check is taking precedence over everything else and 200 seems to be some sort of hard cap.

This is the best overview of this problem I have seen yet.

"The charisma check is taking precedence over everything else" - this I think is the key bug. The difference in caster/castee level, and then MR, should both be much more important than charisma.

I'm curious if this is something that is related specifically to P1999 or if it's EQEmu wide?
has anyone played a charm class on any other emu servers that could shed some light for us?

Good question. Having played on others before (alas, not an enchanter), I never heard of this bug - and I think I would have.

[holkan]

Meh charm is fine I just think people know alot more about the game this time around so stackin cha has huge effects no one did that lol. This server is about having a classic experience no about whats balanced if we were worried about balance we'd have to look at the core of the game like rangers not being able to kill light blue cons where as necros can solo all the way to max level lol. Charm is no more broken then that is.

[Aaron]

Meh charm is fine I just think people know alot more about the game this time around so stackin cha has huge effects no one did that lol. This server is about having a classic experience no about whats balanced if we were worried about balance we'd have to look at the core of the game like rangers not being able to kill light blue cons where as necros can solo all the way to max level lol. Charm is no more broken then that is.

Difference being that rangers sucked in classic and necros owned in classic. Charm was not this powerful in classic. It's not about balance - it's about something being broken.

[Malrubius]

Meh charm is fine I just think people know alot more about the game this time around so stackin cha has huge effects no one did that lol. This server is about having a classic experience no about whats balanced if we were worried about balance we'd have to look at the core of the game like rangers not being able to kill light blue cons where as necros can solo all the way to max level lol. Charm is no more broken then that is.

Not sure where that came from - this has little to do with balance. Charm is broken and not at all what it was like in Classic - everybody knows this.

I had full max charm for many years in classic. It helped, but only a little bit.

[Finawin]

Meh charm is fine I just think people know alot more about the game this time around so stackin cha has huge effects no one did that lol. This server is about having a classic experience no about whats balanced if we were worried about balance we'd have to look at the core of the game like rangers not being able to kill light blue cons where as necros can solo all the way to max level lol. Charm is no more broken then that is.

lmao

You did not play an enchanter if you think charm is "working as intended" here in comparison to its real counterpart.

[nilbog]

Charm is being looked into. It is not working as it should; there is no question there :P

[Shads]

Charm is being looked into. It is not working as it should; there is no question there :P

Thank you maybe enchanters will start grouping :p

[Malrubius]

Charm is being looked into. It is not working as it should; there is no question there :P

/pumps fist
/does a dance
/breathes a sigh of relief
/can't wait to roll a chanter

You guys are doing a helluva job on this server - thanks for all the hard work.

[Yoite]

woot. i shall soon be the overlord of Lguk, and the former ghoul lord will be my minion to do my bidding.

[Malrubius]

woot. i shall soon be the overlord of Lguk, and the former ghoul lord will be my minion to do my bidding.

I think you have it backwards. That's apparently easy to do right now and not much of a challenge. It will be A LOT harder after they fix it (which will finally make it worth trying! :D ).

[Yoite]

haha nah i understand how it works. you see, i dont wanna put forth the effort of getting my cha to 200. I just want my charm spells to work decently like normal and i can FD and smoke when it fails.

[drplump]

It takes 2kpp to get a full cha set.

[Kuldiin]

Wow I must be doing something wrong then.

In a group yesterday in Guk (with 214 CHA) we decided to get rid of a tashed/charmed Dar pet because it was breaking every few minutes (just like it used to on live).

Can someone let me know the /haxor command for always maximum charm please?

[Steam65641]

I think, if you are going to kill the bard AE.. than make a enchanter worthless as well and .. just change the name of it to crackdealer.. Maybe charm is over powered.. but.. what else do they have?.. honestly? they are like the caster version of a ranger without it.

[Finawin]

Enchanters were always glorified buffbots. Always.

[Dabamf]

Wow I must be doing something wrong then.

In a group yesterday in Guk (with 214 CHA) we decided to get rid of a tashed/charmed Dar pet because it was breaking every few minutes (just like it used to on live).

Can someone let me know the /haxor command for always maximum charm please?

Level of charmer?

I had the opposite experience yesterday. In guk our 45 enchanter maintained a dar pet the full duration every time he charmed it, and he didn't even have full charisma gear (though close). Then, moving to solb, he maintained an LDC pet the full duration every time. LDCs double for 130 + dot. It probably accounted for half the group's total dps. I did 35 in 2 hours and 36 in 2 1/2 hours with a monk's 20% penalty and no cleric. The only risk came every 15 minutes when the enchanter said "ok, need to recharm pet" and the group would help root it while he re-tashed/charmed.

I'm glad a dev finally responded to this absurdity. I was losing the battle convincing myself I didn't need to make another alt just to mess with the absurdity of charm. Now I can fight the urge.

And maybe if the importance of charisma is toned down I can actually solo guk lord again on the necro like we used to be able to do. Well...that is if "guk" mobs ever stop hitting like raid mobs.

[drplump]

I think, if you are going to kill the bard AE.. than make a enchanter worthless as well and .. just change the name of it to crackdealer.. Maybe charm is over powered.. but.. what else do they have?.. honestly? they are like the caster version of a ranger without it.

By this argument we should make one of the rangers moves overpowered to compensate.

[The Situation]

I think, if you are going to kill the bard AE.. than make a enchanter worthless as well and .. just change the name of it to crackdealer.. Maybe charm is over powered.. but.. what else do they have?.. honestly? they are like the caster version of a ranger without it.

Enchanters still have mez right? Or am I thinking of a different class?

Mez, Haste, & Clarity - if those were the only tools available to an Enchanter they would be MASSIVELY useful to a group.

But again, this isn't about their usefulness or their power or class balance. It's about something being quite obviously broken.

[TheDudeAbides]

The only risk came every 15 minutes when the enchanter said "ok, need to recharm pet" and the group would help root it while he re-tashed/charmed.


It's actually every 7 minutes

the mobs still do/can break (If that mob breaks it will kill me fairly quickly and it happens all the time)

its a blue con to a lvl 45. Not 7 lvl'd higher red con

Keep in mind you have to break the softcap on CHA

It's not a permanent charm and we also can't heal out pet like mages and necros can. They burn thru content a lot faster and with more efficiency

[Malrubius]

I think, if you are going to kill the bard AE.. than make a enchanter worthless as well and .. just change the name of it to crackdealer.. Maybe charm is over powered.. but.. what else do they have?.. honestly? they are like the caster version of a ranger without it.

Chanters were worthless in classic? Really? I think you've never grouped with a good chanter. So sad.

[The Situation]

It's actually every 7 minutes

the mobs still do/ca break

its a blue con to a lvl 45. Not 7 lvl'd higher red con

Keep in mind you have to break the softcap on CHA

It's not a permanent charm and we also can't heal out pet like mages and necros can. They burn thru content a lot faster and with more efficiency

*inserst Goobles' crying eyes graphic*

[Finawin]

The shitstorm in OOC earlier this morning about charm being "perfect" had me fairly amused.

I'm glad it's being looked into.

[TheDudeAbides]

The shitstorm in OOC earlier this morning about charm being "perfect" had me fairly amused.

I'm glad it's being looked into.

Nobody said it's perfect. Do i think it should be looked into in terms of lower lvl chanters being able to charm red mobs? Absolutely, but holding a blue mob with tash in all honesty shouldn't be an issue for an enchanter pushing 225+ CHA.

It's stupid to make these "balance" arguments though when it comes to anything in classic. Back in the classic era chanters were constantly complaining about how worthless and unreliable charm was. Nobody ever really even used it. Only later on did the devs address this. It wasn't necessarily working as intended at release

On raids all we did was keep crack going and mez

Pretty ironic coming from a mage. You can farm and solo better than any class in the game besides necro.

[Finawin]

I like that you're trying to compare a mage to an enchanter to support the argument lol

[TheDudeAbides]

I like that you're trying to compare a mage to an enchanter to support the argument lol

I'm not comparing the classes

I just find it amusing that a mage is calling for a nerf. But then again, coming from you it's no surprise.

If you want to tweak the mechanics so that you can't hold a red conned mob, I'm all for that. But if it's nerfed into oblivion where you can't effectively hold a blue con with tash for 7 minutes and you break the completely, then that's stupid as well IMO

But why should I bother to explain this to the guy who cried like a baby when he got his OOC rights taken away by a GM?

[Finawin]

At no point did I call for a nerf. Stop putting words into my mouth.

It's not my fault shit is broken and it's going to be fixed. You're projecting your anger at an incoming fix onto me because I support the fix, for an entirely different reason than the one you're implying mind you.

Carry on crying though how charm is just fine the way it is. It doesn't make you look retarded to everyone who isn't a biased jackass at all.

[TheDudeAbides]

At no point did I call for a nerf. Stop putting words into my mouth.

It's not my fault shit is broken and it's going to be fixed. You're projecting your anger at an incoming fix onto me because I support the fix, for an entirely different reason than the one you're implying mind you.

Carry on crying though how charm is just fine the way it is. It doesn't make you look retarded to everyone who isn't a biased jackass at all.

Who said I was blaming you for anything?

Why don't you elaborate on how you think it's broken and needs fixing then?

See that's the thing, I've acknowledged there are issues with charm that need to be addressed, but at the same time, I don't want to see it nerfed into oblivion. You DO understand this yes? Stop your emotional reasoning and black and white thinking for a moment and acknowledge that.

There are so many things ridiculously OP and out of balance in this game it's absurd. Why do you think manastones are camped 24/7 and farmed like crazy? You think classic was balanced? Seriously? Are you kidding me right now? Why do you think Rubicite BP was removed from the game on live back in the day? Seriously this hypocritical attitude about balance is laughable. Like you're on some moral high ground or something. A MAGE of all classes, who can farm any damn thing he wants in the game. You're so stuck in your myopia you don't see the irony in that at all. It's laughable.

I think it's ironic that you're claiming projection here, considering you haven't really specified exactly how'd you like to see charm "fixed", yet seem gleeful that it could potentially be nerfed into oblivion. Would I like to see charm balanced? Sure. Nerfed? No. This is a classic eq emu server. Not WOW or DAOC. It's enjoyment and fun more than anything. People like you take this shit way too seriously when you're whining for nerfs in a game that's 10 years old and on an EMU server. It's a little petty and ridiculous.

You have a lot of gall accusing anyone of "crying" considering your rants and whines.

I'd rather talk to Yiblaan about how awesome he thinks homosexuality is than attempt to carry on any reasonable discussion with someone as dysfunctional as you

[Finawin]

At no point did I call for a nerf. Stop putting words into my mouth.

It's not my fault shit is broken and it's going to be fixed. You're projecting your anger at an incoming fix onto me because I support the fix, for an entirely different reason than the one you're implying mind you.

Carry on crying though how charm is just fine the way it is. It doesn't make you look retarded to everyone who isn't a biased jackass at all.

I think you were attached to your windowsill as a child a bit too long. Was the paint at least tasty?

[TheDudeAbides]

I think you were attached to your windowsill as a child a bit too long. Was the paint at least tasty?

You're hilarious

And yes you'd like to see charm nerfed to oblivion IMO. Play the semantic games all you want. You said as much last night in OOC. You were gloating about it actually.

Unless you want to elaborate on how you'd like to see it balanced? I thought not

[Finawin]

The entire discussion was easily rehashed a good 5 times and you neglected to take note of it, despite the crowd reiterating it several times as well. You don't want to hear it.

I'm not about to do so here so you can similarly ignore logic because your precious OP ability to kill everything solo is possibly threatened.

Charm from the beginning to end is not working right.
You think it is.
Devs are aware that it does not.

That's really the bottom line.

[Dabamf]

Back in the classic era chanters were constantly complaining about how worthless and unreliable charm was. Nobody ever really even used it.

There is no other issue. You state yourself charm wasn't really viable in most situations in classic. End of conversation. This server isn't meant to be perfectly balanced, it's meant to replicate classic. If it isn't how it was in classic, it needs to be changed.

Don't get me wrong, I love love love your LDC pet upping total group dps by 50+%, but it's not how it's supposed to be.

[TheDudeAbides]

The entire discussion was easily rehashed a good 5 times and you neglected to take note of it, despite the crowd reiterating it several times as well. You don't want to hear it.

I'm not about to do so here so you can similarly ignore logic because your precious OP ability to kill everything solo is possibly threatened.

Charm from the beginning to end is not working right.
You think it is.
Devs are aware that it does not.

That's really the bottom line.

I don't think charm is "working right" whatever that means anyways. I'd like to see adjustments made but why completely destroy it's viability?

I think it's hilarious that a mage is complaining about classes "Precious OP ability to kill anything solo". That's real fresh.

Dabamf I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time I dont think charm should be broken again because it was broken in classic. Adjusted? Absolutely. Broken again to retain that "classic feel"? Mm not so much

[Ghesta]

I am more of a grouping druid than a solo druid. That being said I'm glad Nilbog is looking into it.