Where's the fun in raiding?

[Jimjam]

I read a post in another thread,

I have no idea where the fun in raiding comes for people. I guess some people are just very loot fixated...

So enlighten the forums, what do YOU love about raiding in Everquest?

[Lisset]

Competition, when there is some. But sometimes it's competing with the mob itself. We had an encounter a short while ago where the dragon gated twice. We didn't camp and panic. We killed it. It's moments like that.

[fishingme]

All I can add to this thread is that raids are fcuking boring. It's all zerging, raiding would be fun if it was skill oriented raids. Doing more with less. But raids are for the most part pretty shitty.

[Maner]

All I can add to this thread is that raids are fcuking boring. It's all zerging, raiding would be fun if it was skill oriented raids. Doing more with less. But raids are for the most part pretty shitty.


That depends entirely on the guild. Right now on this server though, yes, the top guild is a Zerg.

[Thulack]

Bringing people together to work for 1 goal of getting some useful loot for people.

[Caladbolg]

What I've always loved about raiding is the atmosphere of it. You have a raid leader working as a General of sorts, and a group of people with whom you carry out strategic approaches to given situations. After a while, you form a bond with the other members of your guild, and eventually you learn how everyone else plays and can function as a well oiled machine; sometimes without any actual communication. You know the clerics already have a CH chain going, you know the enchanters have the adds locked down, you know the tank is keeping the target's attention and has it pointing away from the main raid group, and you know that the dps are going to burn it, push it, ect when they need to. It's a nice feeling of mutual trust and accomplishment that really makes raiding what it is (in my opinion). It isn't so much about the loot as it is the spirit of the thing itself. The loot is pretty nice, too, though.

[Thulghor]

It was fun being able to check out places I wouldn't normally be able to see (Plane of Hate, Plane of Fear), and working with a group of people towards a common goal.

Side note: Who's the top guild now? I hardly pay attention to the raid rankings anymore since the TMO days.

[wormed]

All I can add to this thread is that raids are fcuking boring. It's all zerging, raiding would be fun if it was skill oriented raids. Doing more with less. But raids are for the most part pretty shitty.

Yup. I enjoyed being apart of a guild that wasn't at the pinnacle of content but was killing stuff with less. Right now the amount of poopsocking is getting really shitty. I'd rather compete over an FTE with no variance than sit in one area for 10h playing on an alt I don't give a fuck about.

[fishingme]

That depends entirely on the guild. Right now on this server though, yes, the top guild is a Zerg.

Find me a single guild on this server that's actively raiding and doing shit with 10-15 players with no more than 2 people of the same class in the raid.

[Maner]

Find me a single guild on this server that's actively raiding and doing shit with 10-15 players with no more than 2 people of the same class in the raid.

You apparently never played live during the relevant content if you think that is a possibility in most cases. Velious content was made for 30-45 people for the most part. While that does require the proper classes for those encounters and there are a couple you can defeat with less. Thinking 10-15 people will be able to down anything of note just shows you are playing the wrong game.

[ludovician]

All I can add to this thread is that raids are fcuking boring. It's all zerging, raiding would be fun if it was skill oriented raids. Doing more with less. But raids are for the most part pretty shitty.

This.

I played another EQEmu server that had custom content, 14 tiers of raiding (100+ targets) and a maximum raid force of 18 people with fights that strategically were far beyond tank and spank.

From start to finish if not using twinks, a guild could expect up to a year's worth of weekly raids while climbing through tiers to gear everyone and be able to move on.

Life exists beyond EQ!

[contemptor]

Bringing people together to work for 1 goal of getting some useful loot for people.
Pretty much this. Fun things with friends. Relative low number kills are fun, but it's rare to have the opportunity.

Few of the 1999 encounters are really complicated except for the 1-6 main people. It's typically the pull, positioning, maybe dodging AEs and junks/dispels
Loved a few live encounters like Emp SSRA. Stuff that has real strategy and teamwork

[kaev]

Find me a single guild on this server that's actively raiding and doing shit with 10-15 players with no more than 2 people of the same class in the raid.

Generally, the guilds doing minor raids with smaller numbers are going to have a fairly random makeup to their crew at any given event. There may well be 3 or more of a given class present. There may well be as many as 30 people present from 2 or 3 different guilds if target is at/near their limits. There is no gatekeeper demanding that "only 2 per class may attend", or "all must be level such and so", or "all must have x+y+z items", or "we already have 2 warlords in the guild, app denied".

The obsessive "we're better than you types" your post suggests you worship are actually the backbone of the huge guilds. Small raids are being done mostly by casual outfits like <Ill Tempered Sea Bass>, <Blackheart Pirates>, <Kittens Who Say Meow>, and others perhaps as well. And honestly, small casual outfits hitting WW dragons, or Chardok Royals, or Fear/Hate, or whatever, are having a ton of fun without any of the time-consuming demands & regimentation found amongst the elf-sim emulator elitists.

You don't have go for Sontalak with 80 to have fun raiding. You don't have to participate in competitive CotH ducking for hours on end while poopsocking Sev to have a good time. You can do those things if you want to, but it isn't mandatory.

[Swish]

I like the blur between "hardcore" and "casual" on blue... are you casual if you're zerging with 70-80 on a target at odd hours? Sure you are, if you say so... lol

[B4EQWASCOOL]

NERDS!

[fishingme]

You apparently never played live during the relevant content if you think that is a possibility in most cases. Velious content was made for 30-45 people for the most part. While that does require the proper classes for those encounters and there are a couple you can defeat with less. Thinking 10-15 people will be able to down anything of note just shows you are playing the wrong game.

Why do you even make the comparison between live and P99, do you not understand that there are major differences between both? We've been in constant beta since p1999 has been released. Of course most dragons and upper tiered HP mobs are going to require more than 10-15 people. Also, "Anything of note" is relative to how long content has been out for. Look at the solo artist challenge, would you of even thought most of that stuff was possible back when kunark just came out on live, or here? Or chardok royals being able to be killed with 1-2 groups? Were you even playing on p1999 when kunark came out on p99?

[fishingme]

Generally, the guilds doing minor raids with smaller numbers are going to have a fairly random makeup to their crew at any given event. There may well be 3 or more of a given class present. There may well be as many as 30 people present from 2 or 3 different guilds if target is at/near their limits. There is no gatekeeper demanding that "only 2 per class may attend", or "all must be level such and so", or "all must have x+y+z items", or "we already have 2 warlords in the guild, app denied".

The obsessive "we're better than you types" your post suggests you worship are actually the backbone of the huge guilds. Small raids are being done mostly by casual outfits like <Ill Tempered Sea Bass>, <Blackheart Pirates>, <Kittens Who Say Meow>, and others perhaps as well. And honestly, small casual outfits hitting WW dragons, or Chardok Royals, or Fear/Hate, or whatever, are having a ton of fun without any of the time-consuming demands & regimentation found amongst the elf-sim emulator elitists.

You don't have go for Sontalak with 80 to have fun raiding. You don't have to participate in competitive CotH ducking for hours on end while poopsocking Sev to have a good time. You can do those things if you want to, but it isn't mandatory.

It was an arbitrary number set for the classes to fit within the amount of 10-15 people for the classes that are needed in a raid before it becomes overkill.

[fishingme]

This.

I played another EQEmu server that had custom content, 14 tiers of raiding (100+ targets) and a maximum raid force of 18 people with fights that strategically were far beyond tank and spank.

From start to finish if not using twinks, a guild could expect up to a year's worth of weekly raids while climbing through tiers to gear everyone and be able to move on.

Life exists beyond EQ!

Of course it does. Once you hit 60, you have your epic and best gear in game then what do you do? Everything that was once difficult is a breeze now that you're in nearly BiS everything and zerging through it. I suppose I'd rather play in a guild that's more about skill and calculations than the "Let us throw 100 warm bodies at this boss mob and see if we make it!" . I just don't find the point of that, okay so you've made any sort of challenge extinct, and somebody else pointed out that it's to have fun with friends. Do you really know all 100 of those people? Are you all chatting in vent keeping a conversation going? I highly doubt it especially considering how tyrannical most raid leaders in vent are. You may as well do something challenging with the 10-20 people that you actually DO know, and have known for more than just 2-8 groups in the past. Just my take on it though, if people like bashing their heads against the wall and not testing themselves then it's a pretty moot point.

[Maner]

Why do you even make the comparison between live and P99, do you not understand that there are major differences between both? We've been in constant beta since p1999 has been released. Of course most dragons and upper tiered HP mobs are going to require more than 10-15 people. Also, "Anything of note" is relative to how long content has been out for. Look at the solo artist challenge, would you of even thought most of that stuff was possible back when kunark just came out on live, or here? Or chardok royals being able to be killed with 1-2 groups? Were you even playing on p1999 when kunark came out on p99?

Probably because p99 is supposed to be as it was during live... And no, anything of note is not restricted by how long content has been put. It refers to targets that require more than a single group. Otherwise feel free to go 10 man phinny and drusela as much as you like.

This game is based on the live version of EQ during kunark and now velious eras. None of that "raid" content was tuned specifically for 10-15 people and was done with so few until expansions later. EQ came before catering to casuals or the "but we want to experience everything" kids. You want to experience the raid content then you have to raid which requires people in this game.

[fishingme]

Probably because p99 is supposed to be as it was during live... And no, anything of note is not restricted by how long content has been put. It refers to targets that require more than a single group. Otherwise feel free to go 10 man phinny and drusela as much as you like.

This game is based on the live version of EQ during kunark and now velious eras. None of that "raid" content was tuned specifically for 10-15 people and was done with so few until expansions later. EQ came before catering to casuals or the "but we want to experience everything" kids. You want to experience the raid content then you have to raid which requires people in this game.

Key word is "supposed". Gms aren't working off the original blueprints for the server, along with being that P99 is in reality a beta server that is attempting to mimic classic mechanics from memory and from old forum posts dating back. Devs pick and choose what they want to implement for the most part. Whether or not EQ was tuned for it is debatable in four areas. One of which being, how closely does P99 mimic EQ classic, two, What knowledge we had and now have of game mechanics, three computer hardware differences which includes network connections, and how much you min/max.

I don't believe Everquest ever ventured into the realm of casual or hardcore. It is simply unforgiving with corpse runs, and it can take you time to level which most people only had 2 characters above the lvl 45 mark. Everquest I doubt was meant for hardcores or casuals. I recall one of the original devs of everquest saying that he never thought Everquest was going to be the success that it was, and given the era that it went live in, you wouldn't of catered to hardcore gamers.

Every game that has areas that are deemed "raids" requires people. Moot point.

[Rararboker]

You sound super sour about p99. Why do you play here?

[Gustoo]

Raiding is fun because it is the only way to defeat large scary dragons. For example, I never raided and have limited raiding experience. Working together with a large team to accomplish these feats is still fun to me.

I would do it more often if I had the time to /ignore everyone in real life for 2+ hours at a time more often.

If you raid day in day out for 6 months or more, you will probably get bored.

[myriverse]

Working together with a large team to accomplish these feats is still fun to me.
Probably this, and there are just some people (like me) that just don't understand the fun in that. For me, the larger the team trying for something, the less enjoyment of the results. Exception being: if a good friend wanted a certain piece of loot, it was nice to get it for them. Still, having to get 30-40 people together for that makes it hardly worthwhile, imo. The rest is just-- blech.

There's also the competition. Some people love it. Some people detest it (like me). Thankfully, there was almost no competition to speak of on my Live server (albeit, my guild was part of the group far behind the server leaders). So this wasn't really an issue.

The only thing that made any of the raids to which I went enjoyable, were the people that never took them at all seriously and basically "entertained the troops" with humour. If it weren't for them, I don't think I would have bothered much.

[Aeaolena]

"Yo...Why go to a party when I can just drink at home by myself?"

Fun in raiding comes from putting yourself in situations where you foster a sense of community within your guild. You come to "know" people through those interactions, which fosters shenanegans and good times.

We were farming in HoT the other night and my group was having a random conversation about Low Carb diets, or funny stories about shit our kids do.

Some of my favorite memories come from Sky raids, because it was commonly encouraged within the guild to drink. This was hilariously entertaining in vent.

Raids also give you a chance to gain recognition among peers for being good at your class. When your pulling is flawless, or a clutch last-second weaponshield, or just being a badass. For example, our cleric Cheesus did a pro job keeping our entire group alive during a Hoshkar attempt last night. Not one person in the guild died, actually. The kill was flawless. Good feels, yo.

Raids also gain recognition in other ways.. like Navir "accidentally" training and wiping us years ago via an eye pull got awry. Or Skarry deleting his epic accidentally... Or folks just generally being afraid of Lacie. (I guess I am sensitive to reputations because I highlight them in sigs, lol.)

So..sure.. you could drink alone at home (not raid)..but you miss out on lots of hilarity.

And if you've tried raiding and don't like it.. maybe you need to try a different party? Maybe you've gotten a bad impression because you're at the Retirement Homes Xmas party.. and not the one in the college town with the beer pong tournament.

Raiding is fun.

[Itap]

Raiding is fun.

[am0n]

I think it comes down to a few points people have already made.

If you do it day in, day out, it's going to get boring. If you do it once a week, or even less, it can still be a lot of fun, especially if the group you are doing it with is still just learning the ropes.

It's about friends/guilds. As long as people bring their game during the fight, the rest of the time allows for bonding/conversation/goofing off, etc.

If you don't like large zergs, then find a smaller group and get in the rotation. Then when it is your turn you can do more with less and get out of it what you want.

Or, don't raid, enjoy other parts of the game and when you aren't enjoying yourself, move on. Surprisingly, the MMO market isn't like 1999 any more; there are more than two games out there. And an absolute host of fun single player games if you tired of MMOs.

[Swish]

Is raiding fun with a zerg? Bad players: "omg yes, especially for the social element kek"

Is raiding fun with a zerg? Good players: "no, I like the challenge of doing it with less"

[Daldaen]

Certain raiding is fun.

Herp-derp rolling over content can be fun for acquisition of pixels, but generally low number kills are more fun.

We killed Silverwing with like 21-22 people the other day, that was neat as we don't have too much experience in VP and I didn't know if we would have the push to interrupt the gates.

A lot of it though is the many different moving parts or cogs in the machine which must work together to down a mob that is the most fun when you see all those functioning.

CH chain following order and not being too fast or slow
Debuffers getting mobs slowed/crippled/stat/resist debuffs quickly so that clerics can relax and DPS can blow mobs up
Warriors cycling MT on defensive
Monks/SKs/Necros splitting out pulls
DPS doing their job and not pulling aggro and dying (herpderps dying to AEs you can line of sight are lame)
Spot healers keeping groups alive through AE

Unfortunately Velious was a horrible expansion for Enchanter/Bard mez CC. Luclin and PoP were far better and added Mez CC back in as an element of raiding that you had to get right.

Pulling is probably the thing I enjoy most on raids. I loved it during PoP as a bard with Fading Memories + all their songs as a toolset, you could do some incredible pulls. Here on P99 you are somewhat more limited but with KoS eyes, several other monks, CotHs, DAs, and Pets you can still do some incredible pulls.

Being able to skip a 30-60min trash clear and then a 10 min rebuff/med break by having a team of skilled pullers is huge for a guild.

[Shjade]

Is raiding fun with a zerg? Bad players: "omg yes, especially for the social element kek"

Is raiding fun with a zerg? Good players: "no, I like the challenge of doing it with less"

Eh...yes and no.

Granted, I've never raided with a "zerg" party, but I have raided content while overgeared for it, which ends up accomplishing roughly the same thing: steamrolling the raid.

Steamrolling is much less exciting, but it's also less stressful, good for days where you want to go party with your friends but don't want to give yourself a headache in the process.

At-level raiding with the proper number of players (or less) makes for much more exciting fights, but tends to also involve a larger time investment (dealing with failures, developing strats, etc.) and is, on the whole, a taxing proposition.

It really depends on what kind of game you want to play at the time.

[nyclin]

to me, enjoyment of raiding is gained primarily from the culture of the guild. aside from snap engages and complex pulls, there really isn't much difficulty in EQ raiding. the fun parts come from the people that you play with. if you don't like them, you probably won't have much fun.

[kaev]

"Yo...Why go to a party when I can just drink at home by myself?"

^^
Vowels nailed it.

We're over-complicating this. Everything in this thread aside from the first line of Vowels' post is just our collective OCD spilling onto the forums, as per usual.

[new player]

i love hanging out with all the bros online. you know, and kicking back with a brewski getting fresh with my cats at home.

[Pint]

Join a guild that doesn't win all the time, when you do win it is fun.

[Doors]

The fun in Project1999's raid scene has always been monopolizing mobs then rubbing it in everyone's face.

[Altereagle]

We have fun. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8V-GF7uI2k)

[teija]

Of course it does. Once you hit 60, you have your epic and best gear in game then what do you do? Everything that was once difficult is a breeze now that you're in nearly BiS everything and zerging through it. I suppose I'd rather play in a guild that's more about skill and calculations than the "1.Let us throw 100 warm bodies at this boss mob and see if we make it!" . I just don't find the point of that, okay so you've made any sort of challenge extinct, and somebody else pointed out that it's to have fun with friends. 2.Do you really know all 100 of those people? 3.Are you all chatting in vent keeping a conversation going? I highly doubt it especially considering how tyrannical most raid leaders in vent are. You may as well do something challenging with the 10-20 people that you actually DO know, and have known for more than just 2-8 groups in the past. Just my take on it though, 4.if people like bashing their heads against the wall and not testing themselves then it's a pretty moot point.

1.Im not sure where this "zerg"/"throw 100 bodies at the mob" thing came from but we have not had 100 people on a raid since day 1, our last few weeks raids have been a 30-65 average.

2. Yes I know every active raider in our guild including what class they are and chat with many of them :)

3.Having many people talking in vent/ts at once can cause tons of issues/headaches for any guild on a raid and simple etiquette is expected during raids for most guilds im sure.

4. You sir have prolly not encountered the new Lord Vyemm or Tunare yet.

[fiveeauxfour]

Being able to skip a 30-60min trash clear...

This is probably the biggest gripe I have with raiding on this server. I really do enjoy the dungeon crawl culminating in the big bad boss kill, and I wish it was a possibility here, but it just isn't for extremely obvious reasons.

It's like we have taken a WoW approach to EQ, and IMO it does ultimately destroys the "classic" feeling when it comes to raiding. This is just my opinion, of course.

[Alunova]

This is probably the biggest gripe I have with raiding on this server. I really do enjoy the dungeon crawl culminating in the big bad boss kill, and I wish it was a possibility here, but it just isn't for extremely obvious reasons.

It's like we have taken a WoW approach to EQ, and IMO it does ultimately destroys the "classic" feeling when it comes to raiding. This is just my opinion, of course.

I witnessed a kill recently where the pullers spent almost an hour pulling so they could avoid 6 trash mobs that could have been killed in 15 minutes. Sometimes I wonder..

[kaev]

I witnessed a kill recently where the pullers spent almost an hour pulling so they could avoid 6 trash mobs that could have been killed in 15 minutes. Sometimes I wonder..

I hope you had a nice big bowl of popcorn at hand for the show!

[dafier]

This.

I played another EQEmu server that had custom content, 14 tiers of raiding (100+ targets) and a maximum raid force of 18 people with fights that strategically were far beyond tank and spank.

From start to finish if not using twinks, a guild could expect up to a year's worth of weekly raids while climbing through tiers to gear everyone and be able to move on.

Life exists beyond EQ!

I think you are speaking about Shards of Dalaya.

[Daldaen]

This is probably the biggest gripe I have with raiding on this server. I really do enjoy the dungeon crawl culminating in the big bad boss kill, and I wish it was a possibility here, but it just isn't for extremely obvious reasons.

It's like we have taken a WoW approach to EQ, and IMO it does ultimately destroys the "classic" feeling when it comes to raiding. This is just my opinion, of course.

See this is one of the things I enjoy the most. A team of pullers working to split a mob out of a dangerous area without having to clear a bunch of unnecessary mobs.

Sometimes I end up in a situation like Alunova mentions though. In those times I just come back later with a different strategy.

I absolutely despise grind groups or pointless trash clears. They bore me to no end. I want a goal, kill big bad boss/named and get out.

[nyclin]

I witnessed a kill recently where the pullers spent almost an hour pulling so they could avoid 6 trash mobs that could have been killed in 15 minutes. Sometimes I wonder..

probably practicing for competitive fte.. if you're racing for fte, clearing 6 trash mobs can be the difference between winning and losing

[Raev]

Raiding simply satisfies a primal need in (especially male) human beings to be part of a tribe performing a useful task towards a group goal. Many people don't find their soulsucking wage slave jobs provide this, so they seek it in other ways.

[Rararboker]

I witnessed a kill recently where the pullers spent almost an hour pulling so they could avoid 6 trash mobs that could have been killed in 15 minutes. Sometimes I wonder..

Main reason this happens is because of leap frogging. If Guild A pulls mob #1, then guild B pulls #2, then A pulls #3, and then B pulls #4 and then guild A pulls #5, what happens?

Guild B swoops in and solo pulls the boss and splits it from that final trash mob with ease. So, really, it is the natural way to deal with raid mob and dungeon clears when FTE and variance are part of the system.

Likewise, if one guild is obviously going to clear, what use is there pulling anything? Wait until they've cleared most of the trash and then snipe the FTE on the raid mob. Saves your raid a lot of hassle and gets you the more interesting boss and his extremely shiny shinies.

[Daldaen]

And that children is why sim repops need to make a comeback.

[Celatus]

That depends entirely on the guild. Right now on this server though, yes, the top guild is a Zerg.

If you think its zerging you have obviously not raided with the top guild. We often do stuff in off hours with minimum players. We just killed the first warder in ST with 19 people. Major zerg there. Raiding can be boring at times the trash in tov is absurdly hard even with a good number of people. Requires a good heal rotation although trash can drop some good loot as well. Raiding is fun because of the cooperation of many different people to accomplish a goal often a very difficult one with half the numbers the content was designed for.

In FoH back in the day we had 2-3x as many people raiding as nearly any guild on this server we did not have 4 years of kunark gear but we had 90% of the high end gear on our toons. Even then on much of velious content it was not a zerg it required a lot of skill and discipline.

[Spyder73]

The only reason people raid is pixel lust - either you have the fever or you dont

[fiveeauxfour]

Im with you Dald, clearing trash endlessly does get extremely boring. There is a middle ground, however, between the fte train strat and what was previously mentioned. Namely, the dungeon crawl --> getting a bunch of people together and progressing through content. Mobs in raid zones were not designed and placed for the sole purpose of being in a train (I could be wrong about this, I don't know); rather for me, raiding is about both the complicated boss pull as well as raid management throughout the zone.

[Celatus]

Im with you Dald, clearing trash endlessly does get extremely boring. There is a middle ground, however, between the fte train strat and what was previously mentioned. Namely, the dungeon crawl --> getting a bunch of people together and progressing through content. Mobs in raid zones were not designed and placed for the sole purpose of being in a train (I could be wrong about this, I don't know); rather for me, raiding is about both the complicated boss pull as well as raid management throughout the zone.

Problem with the dungeon crawl is non classic variance. You can't wait for everything to pop and do it the way it was meant to be done because someone else will come in and snipe the easy stuff. So you have to be creative in how you pull or you have to clear trash 10+ times as stuff pops. Its pretty absurd.

[captnamazing]

Raiding simply satisfies a primal need in (especially male) human beings to be part of a tribe performing a useful task towards a group goal. Many people don't find their soulsucking wage slave jobs provide this, so they seek it in other ways.

[fiveeauxfour]

Problem with the dungeon crawl is non classic variance. You can't wait for everything to pop and do it the way it was meant to be done because someone else will come in and snipe the easy stuff. So you have to be creative in how you pull or you have to clear trash 10+ times as stuff pops. Its pretty absurd.

Yep, and that's why I said that for obvious reasons, the dungeon crawl cannot occur on this server.

[suppresso]

For me it's the collective sh^t talking in TS