Vindicator compromises?

[Pint]

Can we work something out with this npc so that its not FTE for every spawn that isnt in the bad hours? I dont mean a full blown rotation of vindi every 8 hrs but maybe allow guilds to request a specific vindi spawn like once every other week or something? Im sure we all want to snag a vindi here and there, Im also very sure that some of us dont want to FTE and kite every 8 hours.

[jpetrick]

311 people in zone causes desyncs. The noble approach doesn't seem that feasible ladies and gents. Rotation wouldn't be the end of the world on an 8 hour spawn. Could make it the new Sky.

[bktroost]

Really you are just asking Taken right? They announced their 4th Vindi, Velious opened on Sunday and today is Tuesday... so they are doing pretty well despite whatever desynchs are going on.

I imagine we will likely not see anything with this the first week until they start to show burnout or staff enforce. They have no incentive to give up a good thing.

[jpetrick]

I mean if you guys enjoy clicking air we can keep doing this. I just figured people wouldn't enjoy taking the noble approach on a mob that spawns so much.

[Detoxx]

After last nights Vindi with 330 people in zone, something needs to be done. Its absolutely insane to continue doing it this way and weve shown we can work something out on things like this with the Noble agreement.

[Pint]

No Im asking everyone, its like 21 vindi's a week so hopefully we can work something out.

[bktroost]

Oh I think we should. The question I was posing was why is it beneficial for those who are winning? What is the "sell." Certainly it's not sustainable to fight for him 21 times a week, so that's part of it and that's a good number.

I think the other side would be to look at the raiding entities and dividing that up per week, per month maybe. So that we know what we are really talking about. Divinity, CSG, Taken, BDA, HK, Rampage, Forsaken, Indignation, and Asgard make 9 guilds. That's 2 Vindis a week with 3 remainder if you did a total split of raiding guilds, giving 9 Vindis a month to every entity involved with only 3 Vindi's up for grabs... I mean, even alliance entities can live with 9 vindis a month.... that's a lot of vindication and a lot of raiding one mob.



I mean, I'm sure we can work something more appropriate out, but if you just did a blanket rotation, everyone gets 9 attempts a month with a couple of FFAs.


On the REVERSE:

If one guild dominates it for a month then they are killing 84 Vindis a month. That means you are focusing 84 raids a month on one mob...instead of focusing efforts on other mobs.


Just so we know the numbers we are talking about here.

[Erati]

Taken has no plan on killing Vindi 21 times each week rofl

would love something set up around this mob to make it more enjoyable for all in general as he will show up often as winter has arrived :)

[Artaenc]

This is getting ridiculous. We need to establish something because using the tactic of allowing the first guild to get FTE first and then making sure you get the 2nd one when the first guild goes desync is kind of lame. It sucks when you get FTE and you don't even get a chance to kill that mob.

[bktroost]

Well here's an interesting way to go at it. Considering that there are now 39 timers to keep track of, how many times does everyone really want to be killing Vindi a month? Rather than restricting people to killing him so many times then rotating out, lets look at it the other way.

How often do you want to devote resources to that fight per month?

[Pint]

A full rotation would be awful but if there are ~8 vindi capable guilds who just wanted 1 per week then there would still be 13 vindis for ppl to compete over. Maybe interest in this mob will die down over time and guilds will be able to take a crack at him outside of the bad am hours but even then having some kind of basic agreement would be convenient. I think we all know the lunacy and extremes that guilds (mine included) will go to here has no bounds.

[arsenalpow]

Your day, your vindis?

[Pan]

For the record, if we set something up, Omni would like to be a part of it as a single entity.

As would Europa according to Culkasi.

Sset from HK asked me to post this, too:
Haggard Krew would like to be apart of the rotation for Vindi and we think this is a great idea considering the desync's we get just being in the zone when its 300+ People

[Pan]

Suggestion from one of my officers (Dollie):

3x Vindis/day, right?

Make 2/3 Vindis FFA, and rotate the third.

With 8-10 guilds capable (or claiming capability in our case), that would be roughly one a week for those wanting to participate (or try).

(Could also do 2/3 on a rotation basis with the other 1/3 FFA or whatever - but you get the point of the suggestion.)

[Erati]

would timers b shared then - how would the cycle work ?

[bktroost]

I don't think there is any reason to reinvent the wheel here. We have a great system that works for sky, Let's just do the same, in fact, let's just use a similar schedule? That would of course make the raids a little longer (sky+vindi), but really how long does it take to kill Vindi?

Is it not a possibility to replicate the sky system (death timers) and schedule and just identify the FFA ones?

[arsenalpow]

And this is the problem we're going to encounter, the list will get crazy long to the point where people won't sit and wait, then we're back at square one. 4 years of kunark created the top end glut, i don't see a simple solution to fix it when it requires unanimous participation.

[bktroost]

And this is the problem we're going to encounter, the list will get crazy long to the point where people won't sit and wait, then we're back at square one. 4 years of kunark created the top end glut, i don't see a simple solution to fix it when it requires unanimous participation.

This comment confuses me. What doesn't work about doing a AM/PM rotation and leaving 1 Vindi FFA a day or 2 a day for the days that only have one guild signed up?


Vindi Schedule:

Sunday AM: Forsaken
Sunday PM: Haggard Krew

Monday AM: Europa
Monday PM: Asgard

Tuesday AM: <<FFA>>
Tuesday PM: Rampage

Wednesday AM: Omni
Wednesday PM: Divinity

Thursday AM: <<FFA>>
Thursday PM: Taken

Friday AM: <<FFA>>
Friday PM: BDA

Saturday AM: Azure Guard
Saturday PM: Anonymous

[Detoxx]

Do we need to figure out who can actually kill it first? We know that if u have 50 people plus, you can almost def kill it, but if we make a rotation should every guild automatically be put on it or should they prove they can kill it first? We can do either a rotation for every spawn or maybe rotate days. Each guild gets a day of Vindis, which would be 3.

[bktroost]

Do we need to figure out who can actually kill it first? We know that if u have 50 people plus, you can almost def kill it, but if we make a rotation should every guild automatically be put on it or should they prove they can kill it first? We can do either a rotation for every spawn or maybe rotate days. Each guild gets a day of Vindis, which would be 3.

Not every guild can do 3 vindi's a day. I could muster the force once a week for it, for sure, most likely despite the time because we would know in advance of 8 hours, but I don't want to deal with him 3 times a day. Let the other ones go FFA I say and let every guild have a crack at it. If they fail in their hour it goes FFA.

Same kind of system we did in Kunark mobs.

[Detoxx]

Not every guild can do 3 vindi's a day. I could muster the force once a week for it, for sure, most likely despite the time because we would know in advance of 8 hours, but I don't want to deal with him 3 times a day. Let the other ones go FFA I say and let every guild have a crack at it. If they fail in their hour it goes FFA.

Same kind of system we did in Kunark mobs.

Only issue I have with letting it go FFA is the 300+ man zerg we have going on there. Its absolutely retarded and needs to stop and it wont this way. It turns into a desync war and its very frustrating. I see your point, though, not every guild will be able to muster a force round the clock unfortunately.

[bktroost]

right, so if they allowed for some FFA elements then it would allow for larger guilds to get at it and reduce the people there because the medium guilds would sated.

[Pan]

right, so if they allowed for some FFA elements then it would allow for larger guilds to get at it and reduce the people there because the medium guilds would sated.

This is a key point, I think, to consider and one Dollie brought up to me earlier. Surely would take some pressure off the zone if the once-a-week-ers were otherwise disinterested and didn't necessarily have to contest every Vindi that were in their wheelhouse (timewise).

[bktroost]

From the perspective of a casual it works out quite nicely. If every player had one hour to down their target, you could predict the spawn time of your target more than 24 hours in advance with just a few hours of variance. This appeals to the hardcore because no matter what you're going to have your once secure target and then you will have a less crowded competitive field for a few additional FFA every week.

[Sirken]

just to chime in. the potential problem with it going FFA after 60 min is that right around the 45 min mark, people will starting flooding into Kael at a super quick rate. and then once again you guys would have to deal with desync issues should 300+ people start a near biblical poopsock in hopes of getting FTE

[bktroost]

just to chime in. the potential problem with it going FFA after 60 min is that right around the 45 min mark, people will starting flooding into Kael at a super quick rate. and then once again you guys would have to deal with desync issues should 300+ people start a near biblical poopsock in hopes of getting FTE

Hmm, trueish. Again, once the mid range guilds have their fill it will be hotly contested by a couple guilds but not the whole server.

However, Sirken brings up a good point. We need to add 15 minutes to whatever time we think is reasonable to down the mob because if you are at the end of killing it and 300+ people zone in and cause you to desynch it's gonna be a problem... in fact it's blatantly against the rules to do so. So if we think 60 minutes is the max time it takes to down him, then we make it 75-90 minutes so that when people get in their peanut gallery boxes it won't wreck some guild's day.

[Pint]

Do we need to figure out who can actually kill it first? We know that if u have 50 people plus, you can almost def kill it, but if we make a rotation should every guild automatically be put on it or should they prove they can kill it first? We can do either a rotation for every spawn or maybe rotate days. Each guild gets a day of Vindis, which would be 3.

Why can't we give all guilds an opportunity to try the kill? Its just a vindi after all, if they can't kill it then they can ask for assistance and bring in another smaller guild or pass to a larger guild.

[arsenalpow]

Why can't we give all guilds an opportunity to try the kill? Its just a vindi after all, if they can't kill it then they can ask for assistance and bring in another smaller guild or pass to a larger guild.

Could the staff spawn a no-loot vindi for the purposes of testing for guilds that haven't yet killed Vindi but would like a slot in this process?

[bktroost]

Could the staff spawn a no-loot vindi for the purposes of testing for guilds that haven't yet killed Vindi but would like a slot in this process?

....What?

[Pan]

We're talking about a single target that spawns 3x / day.

Take a step back a minute here and look in the mirror. You've got razor stubble somewhere. You're a grown adult human creature. Trying to interact with others of the same ilk.

Getting pissy or greedy or selfish or silly or petty about something that there will me nearly 1,100 of - vs. 883 high-value targets we've been used to (VP intentionally left out) - in a year seems absurd to the adult staring back at me in the mirror.

If we cannot cut each other some slack here and figure something out to give our co-humans and co-inhabitants of p99 a shot at seeing this one occasionally - without duress and insanity - we've got a whole pile of bigger problems than Vindi on an emulated server.

This is an easy one. And it feels good to be magnanimous occasionally. I promise.

[arsenalpow]

....What?

Do we need to figure out who can actually kill it first? We know that if u have 50 people plus, you can almost def kill it, but if we make a rotation should every guild automatically be put on it or should they prove they can kill it first? We can do either a rotation for every spawn or maybe rotate days. Each guild gets a day of Vindis, which would be 3.

[Pint]

Could the staff spawn a no-loot vindi for the purposes of testing for guilds that haven't yet killed Vindi but would like a slot in this process?

lol no. its one vindi once in awhile, if they cant kill it then nobody lost anything.

[Detoxx]

Would it be insane to do a Daily rotation between guilds? Every guild gets the 3 Vindis of any given day. You get 90 minutes to kill it and if you cant kill it or get a force in the off hours it becomes ffa? Im sure it has some issues to be hammered out but seems pretty simple and clear cut to me

[arsenalpow]

Would it be insane to do a Daily rotation between guilds? Every guild gets the 3 Vindis of any given day. You get 90 minutes to kill it and if you cant kill it or get a force in the off hours it becomes ffa? Im sure it has some issues to be hammered out but seems pretty simple and clear cut to me

seems like a good starting point at least

[bktroost]

Would it be insane to do a Daily rotation between guilds? Every guild gets the 3 Vindis of any given day. You get 90 minutes to kill it and if you cant kill it or get a force in the off hours it becomes ffa? Im sure it has some issues to be hammered out but seems pretty simple and clear cut to me

So just line up the guilds and assign days? You kill 1-3 of those Vindis, if 90 minutes after it spawns there is no dead vindi then it goes FFA or if a person states that they are passing on Vindi #1,2 or 3 then they go FFA right away?

I mean, yeah that's super simple.

Either way, we need to figure something out that works for everyone like sky because another variance riddled mob is to no one's advantage.

[Pint]

Would it be insane to do a Daily rotation between guilds? Every guild gets the 3 Vindis of any given day. You get 90 minutes to kill it and if you cant kill it or get a force in the off hours it becomes ffa? Im sure it has some issues to be hammered out but seems pretty simple and clear cut to me

Would've been content with 1 a week but 3 is fine too. Are guilds who prefer ntov etc going to skip their day in favor of windows? Does that day simply become ffa?

[Pan]

One of the things that could kill a potential or ongoing agreement is differing expectations.

I know some guilds would only want to try for a Vindi or "their" Vindi in their prime time when they have the bodies to do it...and could be content to let the other two slide (if we were to agree that is okay).

So whatever we work out (and I do like the tone of things), let's put communication at the top of the list - and make that incumbent on "their Vindi"'s guild to communicate EARLY that they'll be missing - so that others can prepare and the cycle can continue to move along quickly. I know it would irk me if any given guild were to let all 3 in a day (if that were the way we did it) slip into FFA without a word - if only because there's no reason not to give a heads-up.

I don't care about the specifics, but my point is that lack of similar expectations and then ultimately communication of those expectations could send this south in a hurry. So let's agree to account for that up front and put the onus to communicate on the "our Vindi" guild.

[bktroost]

Would've been content with 1 a week but 3 is fine too. Are guilds who prefer ntov etc going to skip their day in favor of windows? Does that day simply become ffa?

Where is there a rotation for NtoV?

[Detoxx]

Where is there a rotation for NtoV?

I think hes trying to say that if something in NToV or wherever else pops and one of us is going for it during our Vindi day/spawn, how would that be dealt with? I went through this with Sky for a long time. Our sky day is on Sunday and when mobs were in window every sunday, we missed out for months at a time.

[Pint]

^

[bktroost]

So far im seeing some support on this topic from Europa, AG, Omni, BDA, Indignation, Asgard and Forsaken. Looks like we need Taken, HK and Rampage to speak into it with their thoughts?

[Pan]

HK spoke in one of my posts. They're in and will provide input as we go and as needed.

[Drakakade]

Thumbs up from Divinity. Especially with the tone of the discussion / posts. Makes total sense to come to an (noble) agreement over this target - Divinity's aboard.

[bktroost]

Let's get some commentary from rampage and taken please.

[Hokushin]

Rampage agrees to a Vindi rotation

[bktroost]

awesome, i got a message from anonymous about this too saying they were in. Is there anyone we are missing? If not I'll throw up a calendar for this month, say starting on the 15th? That way everyone knows what to expect and that only means a few more days of vindi madness.

[Pint]

great news, any details on how we want to approach the actual rotation?

[bktroost]

Thoughts on this?

What i was thinking its that we set up a calendar with one guild assigned per day. It won't be a whole month, it will be something like 13 days or so.

Guilds will anounce which of their 3 vindis they will be killing and which will go FFA at least a day in advance.

Each guild has 90 minutes to kill their vindi after pop unless it was stated on p99 raid forum as an FFA vindi in which case it is FFA on pop.

In this first 15 days or whatever the numbers of guilds are, everyone is given their own day. If they fail at killing at least one vindi by themself then they are taken off the rotation. (meaning they have to kill at least one vindi)

If a guild has failed previously and wants to reattempt then they must secure an FFA vindi to be added.

(im also going to suggest the idea of adding a day slot at the end of the guild rotation calendar that is entirely FFA, in case a new guild or permanent alliance wants to earn their way on. They could claim only 1 of those vindis on that special FFA day to earn their own vindi day.)

After this first 15 days or so, everyone will know who can handle a vindi solo and we can adjust the list and it will repeat. If Asgard is the first of September then they would also be the 16th of September. Day by day rotation, doesn't consider Repops. Repops are always FFA because they don't affect timers.

It's an incredibly public system and very self policing. Noble is also a public, self policing system, but less so since island 1.5 is very distant compared to the mega hub that is Kael.

But of course I'm just spit balling here.

[Pan]

Taken has no plan on killing Vindi 21 times each week rofl

would love something set up around this mob to make it more enjoyable for all in general as he will show up often as winter has arrived :)

From Sset from HK to me (asked me to post a couple of days ago but had not checked PMs - sorry I sucked at this one):

From the looks of it Taken already stated that they were on page of a rotation. <edit for irrelevant information b/c I was late posting>
__________________

[bktroost]

So far we only have agreed to discuss. We have no details. Much work to be done still.

[arsenalpow]

No longer a static 8 hours since the most recent patch.

[Pint]

Well that ain't classic

[Erati]

No longer a static 8 hours since the most recent patch.

what did you guys observe ? he spawn like an hour late or something?

[arsenalpow]

what did you guys observe ? he spawn like an hour late or something?

Was 20 minutes early this most recent time, so he has some degree of variance now.

[bktroost]

It has begun. While I'd like to sit and get good data for a while yet, without regulations the GMs are going to do what they need to to keep sanity and prevent server desynchs in prime times.

[Artaenc]

There must be something else that can be done before Velious becomes Kunark version 2.0. with variance and spawn window poopsocking.

I'm not sure how hard it would be to code it but isn't it possible to teleport anyone not in the same guild that got FTE out of the zone and lock zone ins for 10 minutes? Use the same mechanics as Naggy/Vox.

That would be more of a classic experience than adding variance. Some people may complain about not being able to leech faction but that's part of what's causing the de-syncing.

Just throwing ideas out there...

[bktroost]

Why don't we just come to an agreement on a calendar schedule?

[Pint]

Why don't we just come to an agreement on a calendar schedule?

Getting the staff to back track on a decision will probably not be that easy, we have full guild consensus in this thread and they still variances the npc.

[Detoxx]

If it isn't a huge variance then we can still make this agreement work.

[bktroost]

If it isn't a huge variance then we can still make this agreement work.

[Erati]

I dont see Vindi with variance being something needing the upkeep of a rotation

It seems now it will be much more similar to a race situation where guilds will be rushing into the arena - which is very classic experience

Poopsocking Vindi for an hour of unknown variance appeals to no one.

[bktroost]

I suppose we will review this when poopsocking occurs. Thanks GMs, your solutions are always spot on.