Mend for Monks

[Aadill]

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=163427

There are synchronization issues with timed items. If I remember right, what happens is, you click an ability and your system logs it's use and starts the countdown from when you can click it again. A message is then sent to the server that said that ability was clicked, the server starts the count-down from when you can again use that message and sends a message back to your machine to use that ability. Usually this process is seamless.

What happens is when there is a large delay between your machine and the server. After whatever the cool-down is for that ability is reached, your machine says that ability is ready, so you click it right away. The problem occurs when that message that you clicked it is sent to the server and the server says, nope the cool-down hasn't been reached. Instead of giving you a wait message it used to say something like "You cannot use that ability just yet."

Unfortunately your machine registered the clicking of that ability and wouldn't let you use it again until your machine went through the entire cool-down again. Meanwhile a few seconds later the server caught up and says your ability is again ready for use, but you have no way of triggering it because your machine said you already used it (despite it failing). This is easily seen if you use the forage key immediately after it becomes available, causing you to miss a forage cycle.

With mend the cool-down without AA is 6 minutes and the community complained heavily that they were being penalized because of server synchronization issues and SOE implemented code that when the ability is ready on the PC, but not the server you get a "you have to wait X seconds, before you can use this ability" message if you click it, but more importantly it would also send a reset to the PC = to that time, so that ability becomes available after the X seconds, instead of having to then wait the full 6 minutes before using it again.


To my knowledge Mend was the only skill this special code was applied to, but not many abilities have a cool-down and use the above method of server/client synchronization to manage it, so it wasn't really a major problem in any area outside of Mend.



This is the exact explanation I was heading towards in the patch notes thread:

The client DOES reset the button but expects the server to send the okay for the button to remain grey or for it to be usable. What occurs on zoning in live is that the button does reset and will appear usable but as you zone your system makes the check against the server.. the UI catches up to it and therefore greys it out moments later, unless the Mend ability is actually available to use.


In short: the client DOES get descynced. The SERVER corrects it by telling the client to grey out the button if Mend isn't available. Right now, the client is simply showing the Mend Ability as usable any time you zone because the server isn't correcting the UI for the actual 6 minute timer. As it stands, I feel the implementation is incomplete, because zoning over and over would allow you to mend and never have to waste any downtime to bind wound up to a measly 50%... it'd be quicker to camp in and out in a remote corner of a camp to reset mend.

Right now, I'm skilling up Mend on a low level monk by zoning back and forth.

[Jaco]

Mend was hmm perfect before.

Ok, when you had used your mend and zoned the button would pop up but if you pressed it again, it would check the server and tell you "skill not available" something and it was resuming the cooldown where it was. (see previous post).

Now, everytime you zone or camp, you can press one button for insta 25% life healed .. for free. Or just reset the cooldown, right after using mend.

Please revert this change from Sat 30 patch, the timer should keep going as it was before, whatever you zone, camp out ...

Thanks.

[Haynar]

Mend was hmm perfect before.

Ok, when you had used your mend and zoned the button would pop up but if you pressed it again, it would check the server and tell you "skill not available" something and it was resuming the cooldown where it was. (see previous post).

Now, everytime you zone or camp, you can press one button for insta 25% life healed .. for free. Or just reset the cooldown, right after using mend.

Please revert this change from Sat 30 patch, the timer should keep going as it was before, whatever you zone, camp out ...

Thanks.
It did not resume the cooldown where it was. If you had 30 sec left on mend, it resets on teh client to the full duration again. The server would be using the correct cooldown. But only if you are hacking, would you be able to use mend after the remaining cooldown time.

I did not know people were so anti-monks, anti-soloing here. Geesh.

Haynar

[Aadill]

Bump.

[ryuut1]

Jaco can just suck on the ol' short n stubby. I'm glad i dont have to wait longer for mend because i zoned.

[kbnexus]

monks

[Aadill]

Any comments on this?

Wouldn't it be possible to ping the server upon zoning to ask if mend should be up or not and resync the client?

[girth]

I did not know people were so anti-monks, anti-soloing here. Geesh.

Haynar

I'm not anti-monk, I was monk on live and in fact I plan to roll one in kunark or maybe velious if we see it, but this is obviously overpowered...not to mention the 50 monks that kind of giggle when I talk to them about it, they know its ridiculous.

Imagine a monk getting caught in a bad spot and having to FD around mobs, normally they would have to stay FD until they regen enough to try to get somewhere safe. Now they just /q out while FD and FD/mend asap when they log in, repeating this if necessary.

Also, who needs to bind wound to 70%(which they currently can for some reason) when you can zone to 100%. Heck...don't even need a fungi.

I'm all for leaving it in too, but can you do the same for Harm Touch. I'd love to reset it by zoning. ;)

[gojita69]

Monk haters need to burn!

[Torqumada286]

I'm not anti-monk, I was monk on live and in fact I plan to roll one in kunark or maybe velious if we see it, but this is obviously overpowered...not to mention the 50 monks that kind of giggle when I talk to them about it, they know its ridiculous.

Imagine a monk getting caught in a bad spot and having to FD around mobs, normally they would have to stay FD until they regen enough to try to get somewhere safe. Now they just /q out while FD and FD/mend asap when they log in, repeating this if necessary.

Also, who needs to bind wound to 70%(which they currently can for some reason) when you can zone to 100%. Heck...don't even need a fungi.

I'm all for leaving it in too, but can you do the same for Harm Touch. I'd love to reset it by zoning. ;)

What do you mean BW to 70%? It stops at 50% You have to be 51st level to BW to 70% and have a high BW skill, which you can't get until 51st level.

Torqumada

[baub]

What do you mean BW to 70%? It stops at 50% You have to be 51st level to BW to 70% and have a high BW skill, which you can't get until 51st level.

That is how it should work, but at the moment monks can bind to 70

[Torqumada286]

That is how it should work, but at the moment monks can bind to 70

At what level?

Torqumada

[MrSquirrelbane]

At what level?

Torqumada

We can bind to 70% at level 40 or 41. It happens when skill level soft caps (red number) @ 200, but you keep getting skill ups. The moment bind wound hits 201 we can bind to 70%, even though the number is red @ 200 in your skills window. Not classic for sure, but I've heard before its a client side thing. IIRC a client side problem isn't something that can be fixed.

[Exeno]

Any comments on this?

Wouldn't it be possible to ping the server upon zoning to ask if mend should be up or not and resync the client?

Everything works fine, stop ragging on the monks. Go play your ranger

[Kassel]

.

[Aadill]

bump.

[toddfx]

So this new mend functionality is a purposely implemented feature? I certainly won't complain, but when I use it I feel like I'm exploiting!

Call me crazy, but I've been playing a monk for 8 months (Only level 31) and never noticed the mend timer would reset to its full duration when you zone. I knew of the false pop, but never actually timed it out.

[Aadill]

There was the original issue that the client's timer and the actual reuse timer were getting borked. This was something that was getting synced (or desynced) upon zoning. The solution was to cause the timer to reset via the client. While I agree that the client should reset the button, it should be asking the server if the ability should be usable and then reacting accordingly. Right now, however, it just resets upon zone and tells the server, "Hey, mend this guy!"

What I don't understand is why doesn't Harm Touch/Lay Hands have this problem, or are those abilities also resetting upon zoning? From what people have said it does not appear that way, so there has to be a way to fix it from something that is already implemented.

[Messianic]

There was the original issue that the client's timer and the actual reuse timer were getting borked. This was something that was getting synced (or desynced) upon zoning. The solution was to cause the timer to reset via the client. While I agree that the client should reset the button, it should be asking the server if the ability should be usable and then reacting accordingly. Right now, however, it just resets upon zone and tells the server, "Hey, mend this guy!"

What I don't understand is why doesn't Harm Touch/Lay Hands have this problem, or are those abilities also resetting upon zoning? From what people have said it does not appear that way, so there has to be a way to fix it from something that is already implemented.

I played a 60 monk on live from early Kunark into Luclin. The way mend worked there definitely didn't allow infinite mends.

Here's my recollection:

If you zoned while mend was on cooldown and its button was depressed, the button would be up upon zoning, but pressing it would just reaffirm the already processing cooldown. I remember I would do it after I zoned just so I would know the next time it was up again, but it wouldn't reset the timer. Otherwise, I would have abused the everliving crap out of that in Sol B and lguk (where I spent a majority of 55-60 soloing).

I've searched around, but I can't find positive evidence to affirm this. But I do know that NOWHERE on Monkly-business does it affirm positively that you could zone-mend ad infinitum. Even with longer zone times in 2000-2001, you think you'd see something...

[Aadill]

That's pretty much what I remember as well, Mess. As I said, the client DOES reset the button, but the server tells the client to accurately reflect the fact that the ability is still not available, so it then greys it out.

[Throb]

Yeah I soloed Sol B quite a bit as well and definitely would have used this to my advantage if it had existed.

Only thing I can find is this..

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=952

Which would indicate it was bugged and wouldn't be available sometimes after the cooldown... but they actually fixed it instead of turning it into an exploit.

[whowhatwhy]

I think the unfortunate answer to this is that without being able to change the executable there are only two possible scenarios.

Either the Mend button will desync with the server and thus you won't be able to use it when the button is up sometimes or the button will be down when you could use it. The other possibility is that you sync the button timer on zone so you know what the current time/timer will be. This unfortunately means the skill has to be available every time you zone in order to get the timing right on every zone.

So basically.. more people would be upset if Mend didn't work right in terms of the button being up/down than are upset by this newly created exploit. It's a matter of choosing between two evils and the current situation is less evil in terms of player complaints.

At least that's what I think the situation is...