Bard (player) skill-cap?

[Blaiseblah]

Hey guys, newer player here and still kind of kicking around who my main should be and was considering picking up bard. I generally stick with classes that force you to play well, classes that allow good players to stand out(not due to some epeen thing, I just get bored playing simpler classes). I've read in a few places that bard is one of the tougher classes to play and I was wondering if somebody could elaborate on why. Is it just because they have to press a button every 4 seconds or so? If so that just seems tedious more than anything. Or is it because it's actually challenging on a tactical, intellectual level on top of pressing those buttons every 4 seconds?

Some other classes I've been considering are Ench and Shaman, thanks for any input.

[mr_jon3s]

A good bard does a lot of things in a group and is always on their toes. Bards pull, CC, twist songs for haste, mana regen, and dps. a bad bard twists songs.

[Destron]

Bard has the highest skill-cap in EQ. /thread

[dafier]

A good bard does a lot of things in a group and is always on their toes. Bards pull, CC, twist songs for haste, mana regen, and dps. a bad bard twists songs.

Yep.

OP:

If you are learning to twist, say so in group. That way people will understand why you aren't doing anything else. Practice makes prefect.

[Videri]

I've only mained enchanter and bard so far in EQ, but I think both of those classes do have a higher skill cap than other classes. It's mostly because there are so many things they can do. I think the responsibility of crowd control also requires a lot of focus, awareness, and RL dexterity.

There are tons of songs in the bard songbook and only a couple of them do the same thing, so at level 60 I still use a high percentage of the songs. Plus, rather than sitting most of the time and casting a spell every now and again, bards sing a new song every 3 seconds while actively fighting. Also, you have four different instruments to switch in, as well as various weapons to employ (dps weapons vs tash orb vs skean for pvp). And on top of all that, you still have to position yourself, target various mobs or players, and communicate via text or Teamspeak, like other players. Suffice it to say, my fingers rarely stop moving.

Also, you start to learn how to pull each zone/camp, one by one. This was one of the things that intimidated me about bard, since I had never done much pulling before and I knew I'd be called on to do it; but it really isn't that bad. Just make sure you understand how aggro, lulls, and line of sight work, and experiment as you level up.

There are so many options in the bard toolbox that I'm still learning new things after playing a bard for eight months. Though I'm also learning about PvP for the first time, and also farming plat and gear and so on, so maybe you will master it faster.

If I may offer one piece of advice: group instead of AE kiting for exp. I only AE kited a couple levels here and there. It's a fun challenge, but I knew I had to group to get better at the class.

[Troxx]

There's a wide gulf between a "good" bard and a passably mediocre bard.

Terri-Bad Bard: 1 song wonder

Bad Bard: 2-3 songs and not much else, more or less afks between pulls instead of maximizing group mana regen.

Mediocre bard knows how to keep 4 songs up (5 if 50+ and has BoH click) the majority of the time. If under 55 pulses mana songs frequently in downtime (1 click per 3 sec), after 55 does cantana + 3-4 pulses to maximize regen.

All ranges between good and fantastic from that point on is more of a continuum ... and is the sum total of their working knowledge of their songbook (inside and out including stacking), having constant situational awareness, being able to juggle mezzes and/or charms, constantly shifts approach to fit the groups needs, can pull capably, swaps in instruments, etc.

Being a mediocre bard isn't SUPER difficult, but it's busy. Being a good to stellar bard is in a league of its own.

It's the hardest class to master (and busiest to boot).

[Getsmurfed]

A bard has a lot of keyboard activity when played well, which separates them from almost every other class in the game. The only one that may come close is a shaman that's very actively cannibalizing. To boot there is a lot of thought that goes into maximizing a bard's usage in a group. Is your tank dex capped for procs? Is cleric in need of mana song or is C2 enough to keep stable? Are your melee strength capped? Can they get by with ATK songs? Are you pulling and if you are can you put up heal over time and mana song on group when you bring mobs into camp? Are there any situation bonuses to pulling on a bard versus any other class? Example a bard is arguably the best puller in HS because of temporary charm and ability to blow multiple HTs on charms every pull, or their 2min DA song to clear an entire room of HTs. Bards require a mastery that no other class can even dream of, but most of it is situational awareness and knowing when to play what song.

[Sinadin]

There's a wide gulf between a "good" bard and a passably mediocre bard.

Terri-Bad Bard: 1 song wonder

Bad Bard: 2-3 songs and not much else, more or less afks between pulls instead of maximizing group mana regen.

Mediocre bard knows how to keep 4 songs up (5 if 50+ and has BoH click) the majority of the time. If under 55 pulses mana songs frequently in downtime (1 click per 3 sec), after 55 does cantana + 3-4 pulses to maximize regen.

All ranges between good and fantastic from that point on is more of a continuum ... and is the sum total of their working knowledge of their songbook (inside and out including stacking), having constant situational awareness, being able to juggle mezzes and/or charms, constantly shifts approach to fit the groups needs, can pull capably, swaps in instruments, etc.

Being a mediocre bard isn't SUPER difficult, but it's busy. Being a good to stellar bard is in a league of its own.

It's the hardest class to master (and busiest to boot).


yeah right - thats the theory

don't tell me that you do (and expect) it for hours every day

[Swish]

yeah right - thats the theory

don't tell me that you do (and expect) it for hours every day

Most groups don't expect the top end. If I'm seeing a haste song and some HP regen/Cantana I'm happy, whatever else they want to add that's cool ;)

[Troxx]

yeah right - thats the theory

don't tell me that you do (and expect) it for hours every day

I actually do most of the time when I play my bard. There are much better bards out there than me, but you can always expect 4-5 songs up at any point unless I'm pulling or juggling CC. Between kills unless I need an afk, you're getting 12 mana a tick on top of mana pulses ... Or up to 45hp/tick regen as needed with string modded nivs + cantana on top of slightly fewer mana pulses.

Anything less and I'm not pulling my weight. It's not like groups want a bard for their dps ...

As for what I expect from others ... I anticipate mediocre from anyone I randomly group regardless of their class. Most of the time this leaves me pleasantly happy when people exceed my expectations, and only seldomly am I let down when someone fails to live up to mediocre.

[Erica]

The number of blinking icons in your buff bar has nothing to do with the skill of a bard. Anyone can play 4 songs.

If you are pulling, you are most likely doing well if there is always a mob in the camp. Throw out a mana song in between pulls. You want to run away from your group the moment you are able to and find something else.

If you have a chanter in your group, try to never mez anything (unless you are going to be the main CC... in certain situations I like to be the CC even with a chanter). You will just screw them up otherwise. Only thing you might want to throw a mez at are pet breaks. Rather than mezzing non-pet mobs, best thing to do to help them is snare, since that usually gives you aggro and you can kite the mob for a moment while they mez and then it is hitting no one, to save your healer mana.

You can play mez and a few other songs to interrupt casting. There are some situations where doing just catana plus interrupting spells is the most efficient way to help your group. You can snare if it is needed where you are. There will also be certain situations (like in crypt) when you really don't need to do anything other than mana song and dps. If you want you can do around 250 a tick in dots, in addition to having catana going. But honestly a group shouldn't need your extra dps. It is ok to rest your poor little fingers sometimes, while at the ready to step it up if people need extra mana or to CC.

[Troxx]

Honestly twisting and playing a bard is not hard (or shouldn't be) on either the fingers or the wrists compared to normal daily typing/clicking most people do when playing EQ. Fingers shouldn't be getting tired really.

Trick I learned a long time ago from live prior to melody ... just keep your hand and wrist relaxed. Clicking a button every 3 seconds really isn't that hard on your body unless you've got yourself all tensed up in weird positions. I've heard of guys/gals younger than me getting wicked carpal tunnel syndr playing bards ... I've honestly never had a problem. Keep your hand/wrist/fingers relaxed.

[applesauce25r624]

razer naga and /stopsong macros for songs 1-8 makes twisting super easy

you can even mix in pressing 1-8 on your keyboard if you get bored

[gummab]

No class is hard to play it's an EQ myth.Which class is the busiest should be the real question.

A demented sheep on shroom's could play this game.

[Loke]

Playing a bard well in a group is all about your total game knowledge. Since you are limited in what you can do, you need to be able to assess what actions most benefit the group. As a simple example, playing a group haste or atk song in a group of casters doesnt make much sense. Does it make more sense for you to pull, or another member? With no enchanter and a caster heavy group, it might make more sense for you to sit in camp pushing mana even if youre also the best puller in the group. Those are pretty simple examples, but since bards are kind of a jack of all trades, you constantly need to be aware of what other members are doing so you can either not conflict with their actions or pick up their slack. Unless you know how to play the other classes, it is hard to know how to best compliment their strengths and where you need to make up for their weaknesses.

Beyond knowledge, all you really need is a good system for how you handle situations. Mezzing two mobs, plus still providing beneficial songs and trying to sneak in some melee require to you have a efficient process for targeting and casting. A lot of people wont spend the time it takes to develop an efficient process which really limits how much theyre able to contribute.

imo grouping on a bard is really fun and actually does take a bit of "skill" (for lack of a better word), I could never stay interested in circle kiting or being a resist bot while raiding though. Kiting planes or no-csr VP was fun, but the novelty of raiding on a bard wore off pretty quick.

[Blaiseblah]

Thanks for the responses guys! They definitely seem pretty cool.

[webrunner5]

I can tell you from playing EQ pretty much non stop for 16 years that having a GREAT Bard in a group is a Game changer. :)

But a Great Bard is only in a group because they are probably bored shitless from kiting, etc. :eek: Just want to have some human contact lol. They Really do not Need to group!

A Great Bard can really be a one man band in a group. Everyone else can pretty much go AFK and they can get the job done. :p

So, just like every class on here, there is just a handful of people that you can count on both hands that are total stand outs. And I would bet you run out of fingers quicker on Bards than any other class on here. It is that hard to play one that well.

But even half good, or 3/4 good they are good to great to have in a group. They will make your time on here better not worse.

So go for it. You may be able to be great and not even know it, or just be a bit above average and still enjoy being one and have a good rep community wise. Win win for you, and the rest of us that suck at playing one, me included. I am just too old to do it any more, and yeah it applies to more than twisting lol. :eek:

[Destron]

imo grouping on a bard is really fun and actually does take a bit of "skill" (for lack of a better word), I could never stay interested in circle kiting or being a resist bot while raiding though. Kiting planes or no-csr VP was fun, but the novelty of raiding on a bard wore off pretty quick.

This is the gist of my bard exp. I absolutely loved grouping on my bard and pulling, charming, mezzing. Kiting was a bore, raiding for resists is just the worst. Playing a bard in a group is by far the most fun.

One big thing that you can do as a bard to really pump up dps is charming. I have never seen a bard charm the way I would. Using charm as a CC is how I would do it. Pull with Charm, head to camp. Throw mob on the MA target and re-charm or mez depending on break. You'll get into the swing of timing. You will run out of mana though.

Also pulling, Lull pulling on a bard is a ton of fun and I believe it to be the best pulling method in the game for most camps. Camps where Lull isn't useful(King) then we drop off considerably. But HS and Seb can be pulled very well by a smart bard.

TL;DR - Bards rock in a group, raiding as a bard is a bore.

[sacman08]

Hey guys, newer player here and still kind of kicking around who my main should be and was considering picking up bard. I generally stick with classes that force you to play well, classes that allow good players to stand out(not due to some epeen thing, I just get bored playing simpler classes). I've read in a few places that bard is one of the tougher classes to play and I was wondering if somebody could elaborate on why. Is it just because they have to press a button every 4 seconds or so? If so that just seems tedious more than anything. Or is it because it's actually challenging on a tactical, intellectual level on top of pressing those buttons every 4 seconds?

Some other classes I've been considering are Ench and Shaman, thanks for any input.

Make friends, join a guild because there is a lot of bard hate on the server from kiting. If you are going to kite do it in some lonely far away zone or else you have to deal with the server chat hate.

[Morlaeth]

Make macros for your songs.

/stopsong
/cast 1

/stopsong
/cast 2

etc etc

[Daldaen]

Make macros for your songs.

/stopsong
/cast 1

/stopsong
/cast 2

etc etc

I can't wait until we are limited to a single hotbutton window, like classic. Too many bards exploit multiple hotbutton windows and are able to make all these extra hotkeys without having to swap pages.

[Morlaeth]

I can't wait until we are limited to a single hotbutton window, like classic. Too many bards exploit multiple hotbutton windows and are able to make all these extra hotkeys without having to swap pages.

I'd say it's playing in the rules given the client we're using.

[fastboy21]

I can't wait until we are limited to a single hotbutton window, like classic. Too many bards exploit multiple hotbutton windows and are able to make all these extra hotkeys without having to swap pages.

I agree with you, if you are saying that it is MUCH easier to do some things that were prohibitively difficult in classic EQ that folks do here because of the very (compared to classic) user-friendly UI. Many of the top players here wouldn't have had the patience and endurance to wrestle with the clunkiness of the original ui and still play the same way. Everything from tab targetting to extra hotbars. Not to mention all the cheap programmable keyboards/mouses and other (legal) macro programs.

The problem is that I don't think the devs could really jam this genie back into the bottle. At best, they could make the game more cumbersome for new players who haven't worked out the modern work-arounds. IMO, their resources are better deployed to fixing/improving other parts of p99.