Enchanter Race Question

[Norathorr]

Hi guys,

Im thinking of starting an enchanter and I have managed to amass some cha gear. I have narrowed it down to three races DE HE or Gnome. I can see that statistically the HE seems to be better for cha by quite a margin. The DE has hide and I just like gnomes! Does that extra 20 cha for High Elf really help alot? I could see that it would open up alot more room for int gear when you hit around 200 cha as you have buffs to take you further in Cha. So a HE would have greater control over a charmed pet plus a potentially higher mana pool. DE hide looks good for charm breaks, but how effective is it? Gnomes would be inferior I guess though would not have to gnome illusion all the time to look through walls?

I know some will say play whatever race you like the most, but I would like some info as to whether not picking a HE would make those earlier levels alot tougher till cha buffs get alot more powerful etc. Any thoughts are much appreciated.

[Ando]

HE is superior for CHA, DE for hide (which is only half-reliable), and Gnomes for wall-looking (but every Ench race can illusion to every other, so this is minor).

The choice is up to you.

[Daldaen]

HE cause you can go Tunare, do the PoGrowth bracer quest AND have an excuse for never participating in PoGrowth raids on your enchanter!

Plus the best stats, Hide is really quite bad - not a reason to pick DE - ( Goblin Gazughi Ring is superior for 6k, which is small in the grand scheme of things), and gnome wall look you get at level 8 or 12 through illusions.

High Elves default to non-KoS in most cities meaning you rarely need to illusion or invis. Plus being the highest vantage point has its benefits in first person view on a CC class without having to mem an illusion.

[Deckk]

I know you didn't say it... But Erudite seems like an excellent enchanter class. High INT and can load up in CHA with bonus points.

[Lojik]

People like dark elf since they can break charm with no mana, but you can break charm using taper enchantment which costs a whopping 5 mana. Looks don't really matter for enc, erudite and high elf have best stats

[Man0warr]

I charmed all the way to 58ish as a DE w/ hide and no Gazughi ring. If it didn't work the first try and it was really important I'd just invis/ivu, but I generally just gave myself enough leeway for a failure.

Ring is nice but it didn't hamper my leveling at all. It was much more expensive when I was leveling up and I didn't have much plat, so if you can get it cheap go for it.

[Raev]

I just like gnomes!

Always a good reason to roll gnome

[Nagash]

My chanty is a DE. Although hide is handy when you go afk, it is not when charming as you need something reliable and it is all but that. My advise: don't pick a DE for this.

[williestargell]

Enchanter is the class where race is least important as they are all very equal. If you're really a min/max person go HE, but the others are all just about as good.

If you choose Erudite make sure you add a few points to agility. Dropping below 75 agility is a major blow to your AC, and AC is of some importance to enchanters as they get hit alot. (bare 75 isnt good because any encumbrance will drop you below). This is solved as soon as you're high enough to buff your own agility and is a non-factor after your epic is in hand as you can just click yourself.

[dafier]

Not that it matters, but ya, I always roll HE, even though I like gnome. But, like a previous poster said....

Level X or XX you get pretty much ALL illusions, and that's the reason I choose HE. Easier to soft cap CHA.

[Samoht]

As a high elf, you reach the CHA soft cap (200) much sooner than all of the other races and can begin investing gear into the most important stat: HPs. I've seen wiki profiles of raid gear enchanters with BIS outside of VP, and they still don't reach 200 CHA because they're not high elfs.

The only alternative is dark elf for innate AFK protection, I mean hide. Like basically everyone else mentioned, it's unreliable at best when it comes to breaking charm, but if you want to take an extended AFK, hide can keep you invised permanently. At least until something with see invis or an undead wonders by. Then you're fucked, anyway. Too bad there's no alternatives. Like logging out.

[dafier]

Reaching the soft cap is important for all Enchanters. And, I agree with Samoht. Dark Elf is the 2nd best option.

[Norathorr]

Thanks guys! Cheers Samoht that was very informative. I went for High Elf. I just need a Siryn Hair Hood to reach 200 cha currently on 187. Investing in some 5 ac 55 hp rings as i have a Cha surplace and some Gator arms. Only slot left to fill after that is range and cloak!

[Norathorr]

So the 200 Cha cap should that be aimed for unbuffed or at a value to take into consideration your first cha buff?

[Raev]

I've seen wiki profiles of raid gear enchanters with BIS outside of VP, and they still don't reach 200 CHA because they're not high elfs.

Enchanters get a +50 self buff, though.

[Samoht]

Enchanters get a +50 self buff, though.

Not sure what your point is. Cap is 255. 50 + 170 = less than cap.

Shamans get a +55 CHA buff, though.

[Raev]

Not sure what your point is. Cap is 255. 50 + 170 = less than cap.

Shamans get a +55 CHA buff, though.

As a high elf, you reach the CHA soft cap (200) much sooner than all of the other races and can begin investing gear into the most important stat: HPs. I've seen wiki profiles of raid gear enchanters with BIS outside of VP, and they still don't reach 200 CHA because they're not high elfs.

Go away, Alarti

[Samoht]

Do you know why 200 is the soft cap? Because you can reach the hard cap with a CHA buff. The buff is already taken into account. That's why it's a soft cap and not a hard cap.

Thank you for bolding my own post, though. I'm not sure I would have been able to explain why you were confused without it.

[Raev]

Do you know why 200 is the soft cap? Because you can reach the hard cap with a CHA buff. The buff is already taken into account. That's why it's a soft cap and not a hard cap.

No, it's a soft cap because the benefit is reduced above the cap. For example, 200 is the soft cap for intelligence because you get 6 mana instead of 12 per point, and buffs have nothing to do with it. Also, while Propo did some tests showing that 200 charisma is far more effective than 100, no one really knows about 255 vs 200. It's quite possible that 200 is actually a hard cap.

In conclusion, whenever you think I'm confused, you should probably stop, take a deep breath, and figure out what you are doing wrong.

[Samoht]

No, it's a soft cap because the benefit is reduced above the cap. For example, 200 is the soft cap for intelligence because you get 6 mana instead of 12 per point, and buffs have nothing to do with it. Also, while Propo did some tests showing that 200 charisma is far more effective than 100, no one really knows about 255 vs 200. It's quite possible that 200 is actually a hard cap.

In conclusion, whenever you think I'm confused, you should probably stop, take a deep breath, and figure out what you are doing wrong.

Lots of assumptions, very little knowledge. You should probably stop typing now.

[iruinedyourday]

HE if youre the kinda person to wear sweatpants or socks w/ sandles out in public.

DE if you have good taste.

[Raev]

Lots of assumptions, very little knowledge. You should probably stop typing now.

This is funny because your post applies perfectly to itself.

[Samoht]

no one really knows about 255 vs 200.

You said so yourself, moron.

[Samoht]

I went full int with Loraen instead of charisma and it's not the end of the world: I still have 225 cha with self buffs

Oh, I see what you're doing. You fucked up your character stat points and now you're trying to pull a Cecily.

I'd much rather have 200 int/255 cha than the reverse.

By the way, just a reminder.

[Tuljin]

Exhaustive nerd trials and testing have shown negligible decreases in critical calm resists above the 200 CHA softcap. The main checks are Level then MR.

Roll Erudite, only 10 less CHA base, more INT, and far less "gay" of a race.

[Raev]

You were so desperate to deflect from your misunderstanding of hard/soft caps that you spent an hour looking up out of context quotes from my enchanter guide? Immersion level: critical.


I have a slightly more nuanced view of gear at this point. 200 charisma is still definitely your first gear goal: my current [http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92423 best guess] for charm durations is that they depend linearly on charisma, and that this effect is softcapped 50% above 200. After this, you have to choose between getting more HP, more mana, or 255 charisma, and I think this depends a lot on what you want to do:
* If you duo with a cleric (or group mostly), you want 255 charisma and then as much mana as you can get. +1100 HP from [[Heroism]] and [[Symbol of Marzin]] will trump any gear you can find.
* If you are soloing 'Master' level content (Howling Stones South, Crypt, Sebilis NG) or duoing with a shaman you want hitpoints. With taps you won't need much mana, and your primary concern is getting bad charm breaks and having to cap out without killing a target with a 10k item. Shamans can't give you hitpoints, but malo helps with resists a lot.
* If you are soloing 'Grandmaster' level content (Howling Stones East, some areas of Velious) you want mana. You'll be casting manahog spells like [[Rapture]] and [[Boltran's Agacerie]] and getting more frequent resists (= recast = more mana). Hitpoints won't be as important because you'll always have Rune and Bedlam up (=1100HP), and 1 mana = 2 HP of Rune, and you can use potions to max charisma when you really want to.

incoming samoht rage edits of the wiki page in 4 3 2 1 . . .

[Samoht]

Nothing is out of context. I have you admitting to allocating your starting points wrong, and admitting that you would rather have 255 CHA than INT. I think those pretty much reinforce everything I've been saying in this thread.

But two personal attacks in one post? You're deflecting harder than Alarti at this point.

Still, on the whole I'd rather have 10% longer charm durations than 10% more HP, so I guess I'm going to have to regear a little. Stupid int/gnome builds with 75 base CHA.

I'll just leave you with this little gem.

[Raev]

My preference for 255 CHA over 255 INT or my stat allocation on Loraen have nothing to do with the mechanics of the soft cap. Keep trying to deflect, though.

[Samoht]

It is your opinion that it is a soft cap because somebody did some less than adequate research that showed in their very limited sample size that 255 CHA had some more effect than 226 CHA but strangely not more than 200. Maybe you should try a sample size more than 36. For it to be truly scientific, I would recommend something in the millions.

It is a fact, however, that 255 is the hard cap, and you can reach 255 with a CHA buff of 55 when you have an unbuffed CHA of 200, and that is a certain reason why 200 is a soft cap.

But, let me be frank with you, you have a condition called poisoning the well. You made a bad decision on both character race and stat allocations, and rather than face your bad decision and teaching other people not to make the same decision, you appear to be downplaying your own mistakes and telling other people that it's not that big of a deal. Still, they are mistakes none the less. I hope nobody follows your example.

After all, gnomes are a really poor choice for enchanter race. It doesn't even land in the top three. You should probably reroll before Velious.

Imagine your gear on a high elf. You would be able to wear real boots and a real bracer. Nice.

[Raev]

Samoht, your ignorance of facts and facility with ad hominems would make you an excellent politician. It's quite amusing how you quote me as recommending CHA builds on the one hand and then say I'm poisoning the well by not recommending CHA builds on the other. Make up your mind.

Also, we know there is a charisma softcap at 200. We have two sets of tests: Propo showing a 2x increase (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=738889&postcount=52) going from 95 to 225, and my work showing maybe 10% after massaging the data (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92423) (somehow I didn't see any tests by you). The difference below 200 was so profound that it popped out immediately despite the low sample size.

[Pint]

gnome is best choice, any other suggestion is probably from ppl who dont know what they are talking about or who are just intentionally trying to mislead you ;)

[Samoht]

my work showing maybe 10% after massaging the data (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92423)

Every post you've made in this thread is arguing semantics about the soft cap, and you keep linking your unscientific data to make yourself seem important. I think the discussion about race is over, and your message is clearly flawed.

Maybe you should try a sample size more than 36. For it to be truly scientific, I would recommend something in the millions.

Why do you keep posting?

[Raev]

Alarti, you are like a textbook on how to argue an incorrect position. Embarrassed on your ad hominem 'poisoning the well claim'? No matter, deflect again. Destroyed on the evidence regarding the charisma softcap? No matter, claim your opponent is self-centered. Hint: Data is not 'scientific' or 'unscientific' because of its quantity. You simply have a greater or lesser confidence in the results.

Why do I keep posting? Because I find it amusing to grind your pathetic ego into the dust. You're an anonymous troll who contributes nothing. At least Tiggles is funny. But yes, I am getting a bit bored. I know exactly what you are going to post next, and I'm going to smack that down, and then I'm going to be done!

[Samoht]

Your own data showed that 200 was more reliable than 255, and rather than extend your test like any good researcher would do, you just threw out a portion of your tests at 200. It wasn't thorough enough then, it's not thorough enough now. I'm calling you out.

Your tangents haven't changed a thing, though. Neither have your personal attacks. 255 is still the desired amount of CHA, and 200 is still the soft cap because that's the amount it takes to reach 255 with buffs, in spite of any proven or unproven demolishing returns.

Quit trying to derail the topic to make yourself seem important.

[Raev]

Did you really just spend 3 hours hammering refresh? Rhetorical.

And predictable. And no, I didn't throw out any data, because I reported it all. If I don't feel like doing more tests, that's my prerogative. An anonymous troll who has contributed nothing 'calling me out' is pure silliness. And since you don't like my analysis of the data, then the best we have is the raw data, which simply does not support your conclusions.

Quit trying to derail the topic to make yourself seem important.

This is a textbook description of every post you have ever made on this forum. You want a callout? Do the experiment you are proposing. I'd be curious to see the results.

And now, as promised, I'm done. I'll let you have the last word, because everyone at this point already knows you're full of shit.

[Samoht]

Well, since you want to keep arguing your tangent, I'll be happy to continue embarrassing you by debunking your so-called results.

no, I didn't throw out any data

You admitted to... what word did you use? Massage? Massaging the data.

Loraen, L60/255 cha, L53 Ilis w/tash x10: average 118 seconds
Loraen, L60/200 cha, L53 Ilis w/tash x10: average 139 seconds (1 outlier, without 109 seconds)

Let's just stick with the important parts.

199

[Thu Dec 27 17:12:26 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 2:46 166
[Thu Dec 27 17:15:12 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:47:34 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 1:22 82
[Thu Dec 27 17:48:56 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:49:30 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 0:34 34
[Thu Dec 27 17:51:38 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:52:02 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 1:18 78
[Thu Dec 27 17:53:20 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:53:37 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 0:07 7
[Thu Dec 27 17:53:44 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:54:12 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 0:33 33
[Thu Dec 27 17:54:45 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:54:58 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 0:11 11
[Thu Dec 27 17:55:09 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:55:29 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 7:11 431
[Thu Dec 27 18:02:40 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 18:03:01 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 3:39 219
[Thu Dec 27 18:06:40 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 18:07:23 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 3:48 228
[Thu Dec 27 18:11:11 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 18:11:23 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 4:01 241
[Thu Dec 27 18:15:24 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.


Wait, is that 11 iterations or 10? Your math says that an average of 10 iterations gave gave a time of 139 seconds. If you removed the top, you got an average time of 109 over 10 tests. Maybe you meant to remove outliers from both the top and the bottom. You would have gotten an average time of 121 seconds.

255

[Thu Dec 27 16:44:29 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 1:11 71
[Thu Dec 27 16:45:38 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 16:45:54 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 3:38 218
[Thu Dec 27 16:49:32 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 16:49:58 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 1:16 76
[Thu Dec 27 16:51:14 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 16:51:37 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 2:02 122
[Thu Dec 27 16:53:39 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 16:54:07 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 3:50 230
[Thu Dec 27 16:57:57 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 16:58:31 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 0:57 57
[Thu Dec 27 16:59:28 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 16:59:40 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 0:36 36
[Thu Dec 27 17:00:16 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:01:58 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 1:42 102
[Thu Dec 27 17:02:04 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:02:06 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 2:59 179
[Thu Dec 27 17:05:05 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:05:30 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 0:25 25
[Thu Dec 27 17:08:53 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.
[Thu Dec 27 17:09:04 2012] You begin casting Boltran`s Agacerie. 3:08 188
[Thu Dec 27 17:12:12 2012] Your Boltran`s Agacerie spell has worn off.

Once again, see 11 tests listed, so I will assume that your average was from 11 tests and not 10. If you had thrown out the top time to match the change you made to the results of the 199 test, and done the average with 10 results, the time would have been 107 seconds. That's actually 2 seconds shorter than the time you used for the 199 CHA. Removing the results from both extremes would have given you an average time of 116 seconds, which is 5 seconds shorter than the 199 tests.

What results can be inferred from these tests? None. The sample size is simply too small for anybody with even the smallest education to rely on. On top of that, you mishandled the data. You treated the results from the 199 tests different from the results from the 255 test. In your results, you used 21 tests and a strange way to remove what you deemed outliers. The real method to remove outliers only left us with 18 tests.

At any rate, it's insignificant. Your tests were done two and a half years ago, and a lot of things have changed since then. They are no longer relevant, no matter how hard you're trying to hang onto them.

But even if your proposed 10% longer duration was true between 200 and 255 CHA in spite of the alleged diminishing returns, people are still going to aim for 255 CHA. And what is the easiest way to get 255 CHA without going over? Gearing for 200 CHA and getting a 55 CHA buff from a shaman (or 205 + 50 self-buff).

And that, my friends, is why 200 is the soft cap.

Now, to explain why your other posts are poisoning the well, by calling the soft-cap 200, you're saying that people should aim for 200 CHA with self-buffs included. Your reasoning? Since you don't reach 200 CHA unbuffed, they shouldn't, either. Your own shortcomings are showing bias, and thus any reasoning that they should aim for less than 200 unbuffed CHA is by definition poisoning the well.

[williestargell]

All the other stats have "soft caps", I personally think it's pretty safe to assume that charisma operates in approximately the same manner. Everyone I know other than the current argument pretty much takes it for granted that it's a soft cap (ie, you still gain a benefit up to 255, it's just less benefit per point).

IMO an enchanter should have OVER 200 charisma while buffed. I prefer to operate at about 225 cha, 255 int in addition to wearing a fair amount of +mana and hp gear. I'm an erudite with raid gear but nothing uber. I can do all that as an erudite but it if I was a high elf I could drop a couple cha items for more hp.

If I'm buffing a raid, I need the big mana pool to cast VoG , C2, Enlightenment, and coming in velious Gift of Brilliance on even 1/3 of the raid if there are 3 chanters without making the raid wait or resorting to clicky haste.

[k2summit]

Well, since you want to keep arguing your tangent, I'll be happy to continue embarrassing you by debunking your so-called results.



You admitted to... what word did you use? Massage? Massaging the data.



Let's just stick with the important parts.




Wait, is that 11 iterations or 10? Your math says that an average of 10 iterations gave gave a time of 139 seconds. If you removed the top, you got an average time of 109 over 10 tests. Maybe you meant to remove outliers from both the top and the bottom. You would have gotten an average time of 121 seconds.



Once again, see 11 tests listed, so I will assume that your average was from 11 tests and not 10. If you had thrown out the top time to match the change you made to the results of the 199 test, and done the average with 10 results, the time would have been 107 seconds. That's actually 2 seconds shorter than the time you used for the 199 CHA. Removing the results from both extremes would have given you an average time of 116 seconds, which is 5 seconds shorter than the 199 tests.

What results can be inferred from these tests? None. The sample size is simply too small for anybody with even the smallest education to rely on. On top of that, you mishandled the data. You treated the results from the 199 tests different from the results from the 255 test. In your results, you used 21 tests and a strange way to remove what you deemed outliers. The real method to remove outliers only left us with 18 tests.

At any rate, it's insignificant. Your tests were done two and a half years ago, and a lot of things have changed since then. They are no longer relevant, no matter how hard you're trying to hang onto them.

But even if your proposed 10% longer duration was true between 200 and 255 CHA in spite of the alleged diminishing returns, people are still going to aim for 255 CHA. And what is the easiest way to get 255 CHA without going over? Gearing for 200 CHA and getting a 55 CHA buff from a shaman (or 205 + 50 self-buff).

And that, my friends, is why 200 is the soft cap.

Now, to explain why your other posts are poisoning the well, by calling the soft-cap 200, you're saying that people should aim for 200 CHA with self-buffs included. Your reasoning? Since you don't reach 200 CHA unbuffed, they shouldn't, either. Your own shortcomings are showing bias, and thus any reasoning that they should aim for less than 200 unbuffed CHA is by definition poisoning the well.

Jesus Christ bro

[Norathorr]

Should in this case we gear the ench for cha levels to het to 255 with our self nuffs, decreasing cha as we gain new cha buffs and adding Hp items or int gear as the slots open up?

[Raev]

Should in this case we gear the ench for cha levels to het to 255 with our self nuffs, decreasing cha as we gain new cha buffs and adding Hp items or int gear as the slots open up?

I think it would be fairly difficult to get 255 charisma without planar gear and decent self buffs. http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EnchanterGuideClassic is a cha-build gnome with charisma oriented gear and still only hits 173 unbuffed; you could get +20 from being a full-cha high elf, 8 from Loam Shoes (a good idea if you can afford them), and +14 from charisma rings (dubious imo since 110 HP is so huge at lower levels). That would be 215 if I am doing my math correctly, so you still wouldn't cap without the L49 self buff. Maybe you could find another slot or two and cap at L34 instead.

[captnamazing]

I'd recommend you go High Elf, as enchanters have the ability to take on any appearance (so you can go gnome for wall-peek). HEF also look pretty cool as enc.

I went ERU because the raw INT attracted me, and ENCs get CHA buffs earlier on - but I do think I would have preferred HEF.

[Endorra]

It's worth noting that, if you intend to solo in dungeons as an enchanter, you will eventually find yourself doing a naked CR. Even the most careful enchanters with WC hats will have an whoops or two now and then.

You'll be very glad you went High Elf with a bunch of CHA - my base is 110. With the self-buff to CHA that's 160. Some enchanters bank a bit of CHA gear to help with CR's; you'll need less of it and it makes a HUGE difference on lulls as you're trying to get back to your body. Howling Stones comes immediately to mind.

[Phantasm]

High Elves get more CHA
Dark Elves get innate hide

play what you have fun with :)

[williestargell]

...+14 from charisma rings....

not a good idea to base your charisma on ring slots imo. Those slots are the easiest slots to get magic resists or hitpoints. I'd be sticking to the 5/55 rings or djarns there and swapping in MR rings when needed.

Loam shoes and shoulders are great for their slots for charisma.

You are correct about planar gear. That's alot of charisma for a non-planar enchanter, as you get planar gear you would want to start swapping out cha items for int/mana/hp. I'd lose the opaline earrings for crafted hp/mana immediately out of that setup.

Remember at high levels the self charisma buff is very large at 40, and the shaman cha buff is even bigger at 55 if you're in a raid.

[phacemeltar]

i chose human because ive always wanted to be one irl. lol, jk... str is a high commodity though, and human shouldnt be overlooked.

one down side to this, though, is that night-blindness isnt around and this could ruin your experience

[iruinedyourday]

All you high elf fans make me feel gross. Dark elf is the true king of norrath

[Waedawen]

Raev is an erratic, hare-brained whacko who has been run off and dismissed by so many people it's not even funny at this point. He's tried to guild hop so many times and burned so many bridges along the way, one can not help but feel sorry for him. Truly one of 'P99's Finest.'

I wouldn't even pay attention to anything he says.

[Tecmos Deception]

Yikes. But you told me you liked playing with me? Lol.


High elves are the best enchanters.

Hide is a small convenience for going afk safely in the spots here or there in the game where nothing sees hide... but soon we will get fixed-duration invis too for those. Hide for breaking invis works but is unreliable and not a big benefit.

The other races don't offer benefits that you can't get by just casting illusion, really.

High elves have the best charisma, and charisma is king. In Velious everyone will max int without raid gear, but short of uber gear, you won't find much more charisma than you have in Kunark, especially without making big sacrifices on other stats. That's the biggest reason I like high elves, though the extra charisma for CRs is pretty great too.

[Tecmos Deception]

str is a high commodity though, and human shouldnt be overlooked.

one down side to this, though, is that night-blindness isnt around and this could ruin your experience

No way, man. None of that stuff should be more than a small annoyance.

Strengthen spell, earth elemental illusion, bedlam line, and WR bags make strength the least important stat, imo. More strength is just a small convenience that eventually is entirely a non-issue. Night blindness is handled with illusions or infravision/ultravision, if your client is even dark enough to worry about it in the first place.

High elves are the best!


No race should make a big difference though.

[Tecmos Deception]

not a good idea to base your charisma on ring slots imo. Those slots are the easiest slots to get magic resists or hitpoints. I'd be sticking to the 5/55 rings or djarns there and swapping in MR rings when needed.

Rings should probably be AC, HP, or MR at high levels or when you are in very tight quarters. But a lot of enchanters level in outdoor zones or in dungeons like CoM or KC where there is enough room that you can stack the hell out of charisma for better lulls and charms and just keep distance between yourself and pets/mobs so that you're not getting hit in the first place.

My new chanter will be rocking charisma rings from the time he can afford them until he starts fighting summoners.

[Bristlebaner]

DE look best. So there's that.

[Cecily]

Oh, I see what you're doing. You fucked up your character stat points and now you're trying to pull a Cecily.

Sorry, I'm a bit late and I don't remember the conversation you're referring to. Did you mean my 25 Str 5 Sta wood elf rogue, my 5 Str 25 Sta dark elf rogue, my 5 Str 5 Sta 5 Wis 5 Dex wood elf ranger, or my 25 Wis 5 Sta wood elf druid?

I'm happy with my stat distributions and race selections, and I'm pretty sure that makes you mad. Care to elaborate?

[Deckk]

DE look best. So there's that.

Counterpoint: enchanters can be whatever race you want them to be with the cast of a a spell.

[Cecily]

Counterpoint: enchanters can be whatever race you want them to be with the cast of a a spell.

Countercounterpoint: Dark elves don't have to cast a spell to look good.

[Deckk]

Countercounterpoint: Dark elves don't have to cast a spell to look good.

Counterpoint the the counterpoint of the counterpoint: gnomes look better.

[Tecmos Deception]

Counterpoint: enchanters can be whatever race you want them to be with the cast of a a spell.

And they're often just gnomes anyway for wall hacks, door tricks, and/or not getting stuck in tight spaces!

[Cecily]

Counterpoint the the counterpoint of the counterpoint: gnomes look better.

Counterpoint to your counterpoint of my counterpoint to your counterpoint of my esteemed colleague's original point: Gnomes look better, but as it has already been established, dark elves look best.

[Nuggetman]

I would go gnome for wallvision. I rolled a erudite as my first chanter for the stats and keeping the gnome illusion up when I wanted wall vision or zoning was annoying as hell in the game. Saying you can be anything you want sounds good on paper, but when it poofs when you zone and has to be refreshed along side tons of other buffs it gets old fast. Wall vision is the best.

[unleashedd]

hide is unreliable; taper enc is unreliable - either cast ivu on self, or get the ring

[Victorio]

HE cause you can go Tunare, do the PoGrowth bracer quest AND have an excuse for never participating in PoGrowth raids on your enchanter!

Plus the best stats, Hide is really quite bad - not a reason to pick DE - ( Goblin Gazughi Ring is superior for 6k, which is small in the grand scheme of things), and gnome wall look you get at level 8 or 12 through illusions.

High Elves default to non-KoS in most cities meaning you rarely need to illusion or invis. Plus being the highest vantage point has its benefits in first person view on a CC class without having to mem an illusion.
The Pog bracer is for clerics, not enchanter.
Definitely do not go Tunare enchanter. It makes many evil illusions worthless since the deity faction hit is bad and the PoG quest reward is mediocre.

[Daldaen]

The Pog bracer is for clerics, not enchanter.
Definitely do not go Tunare enchanter. It makes many evil illusions worthless since the deity faction hit is bad and the PoG quest reward is mediocre.

And do you know this for a fact? Or just hearsay (the faction thing, you're right the Tunare reward is a Halo)

I've had 0 issues in Neriak, Oggok and Grobb using the correct illusion and faction spell. Haven't bothered with Cabilis because it's no where close to anything.

Could bank, buy the necessities and do the epic quest pieces required without any invis or aggro.

[iruinedyourday]

yea but after you zone out all the npc's snicker about how you look like a frail 90 year old man

[REMEZ]

High Elf for the CHA if you can tolerate how awful they look(yes illusions, bla bla bla, but you will be looking at your cha for a long time so you may aswell like how it looks). I did Dark elf for hide. No its not reliable, but it is a great tool to go afk with with(invis fades) or try and break charm instanly instead of casting spell that takes time.

All enchanters should also be agnostic unless you are into some kinky roleplaying. It will allow you to enter all cities(almost) with illusions and not have to worry about your God getting you killed.

[iruinedyourday]

ironic how the ugliest character model has the highest charisma..

I also assume that HEF arnt a very funny group of people..

I just dont understand why they have highest cha.

unless draping your city in gold is all it takes.

[Ronnie328]

Ok, so if you want to pick the "best" race for a certain class, the easiest way is to add up the stats that matter. Erudite 117 int + 80 cha = 197. High elf 102 int + 90 cha = 192. Erudite also has higher Sta and higher str (let's gave it, encumbered sucks). Even if you feel like you absolutely have to get to 75 agi with your starting allotment (you don't), they still have equal int/cha plus more Sta and str. Go Erudite.

[nina]

In the end it seems to be min/max vs RP/personal asthetics. I like my DE, he's just cool with an innate 80s mullet. Checkmate to all other arguments

[iruinedyourday]

In the end it seems to be min/max vs RP/personal asthetics. I like my DE, he's just cool with an innate 80s mullet. Checkmate to all other arguments

https://media.riffsy.com/images/7d7c10bc8d05b7ab8b26ccc8576302d7/raw

[Pyrion]

Go human! Be that special enchanter. You won't see any other human enchanter in your career, i promise.

[Samoht]

Ok, so if you want to pick the "best" race for a certain class, the easiest way is to add up the stats that matter. Erudite 117 int + 80 cha = 197. High elf 102 int + 90 cha = 192. Erudite also has higher Sta and higher str (let's gave it, encumbered sucks). Even if you feel like you absolutely have to get to 75 agi with your starting allotment (you don't), they still have equal int/cha plus more Sta and str. Go Erudite.

INT and STA are not as important on an Enchanter as CHA. I would not add those stats up. The only thing to add is CHA + starting points.

[kined]

Go human! Be that special enchanter. You won't see any other human enchanter in your career, i promise.


so undesirable no one even considers it when they look at the races an enchanter can be.

[Ronnie328]

INT and STA are not as important on an Enchanter as CHA. I would not add those stats up. The only thing to add is CHA + starting points.

Int is absolutely important for enchanters. Even with breeze/clarity/c2, you need a mana pool.

And I mentioned Sta and str as bonus. Having a higher health is beneficial, being slightly less encumbered is beneficial.

[Samoht]

Advocating strength on an enchanter? GTFO. You don't wear plate, and you're not a kiting class. Plus you have stacking STR buffs. No. Just no.

Also, max mana does not matter except when you're at 100% mana. C2 and ToT plus INT/mana buffs definitely marginalize the need to invest starting points into INT or even gear for it. That's not even considering outside mana sources like bards and rods. As an enchanter, you are guaranteed to hit the INT softcap on an accident. Unless you picked human.

[Daldaen]

With epic, planar and sky gear, my enchanter hits 220 INT and 255 CHA buffed. While using 2 BS Ears / 2 HP Rings.

With Skyshrine gear it's even better. The Planar drops are solid and the PoSky quest pieces like the shoulders are very difficult to replace though.

[Samoht]

PoSky quest pieces like the shoulders are very difficult to replace though.

The shoulders are just so damned good. HP + CHA. That's all that matters.

Rest of sky pieces are pretty meh.

[Daldaen]

Neck is also quite good, though less so with 6 talismans. Mask is meh. Belt is good just cause most better options for belts cost a huge amount. Ear is meh.

[Varren]

This has been an interesting conversation.

I rolled HE for the cha, but I can't help but think that my character looks like my friend Steve. I often cast illusion: half elf for that ranger look.

[DevGrousis]

People like dark elf since they can break charm with no mana, but you can break charm using taper enchantment which costs a whopping 5 mana.

Wait.. Taper Enchantment breaks charm?? At all levels?

[iruinedyourday]

Wait.. Taper Enchantment breaks charm?? At all levels?

if its on the top slot

[DevGrousis]

So theoretically, if i'm fighting guards in oggok they shouldn't have any buffs on them, and I can just use Taper, instead of invis? that's kind of brilliant. I wonder why no guides i've ever seen have mentioned that.

[iruinedyourday]

yep!

[Vellaen]

So theoretically, if i'm fighting guards in oggok they shouldn't have any buffs on them, and I can just use Taper, instead of invis? that's kind of brilliant. I wonder why no guides i've ever seen have mentioned that.

Bear in mind that after the change to dispel mechanics, taper is not guaranteed to break charm on the first cast, even if charm is the only active spell on your pet. Because it only removes a single counter per cast, worst case it could take eight tapers to dispel the charm.

[Samoht]

With things like GGR in the game, I'd never waste a spell slot on a dispel that I'd have to cast more than once in order to break charm.