Necro, how do you not choose Iksar?

[Beinen]

Seriously. I'm not the minmaxer guy but when you have Lich spells... How do you not go Iksar?

[Beinen]

Do any necro races have exp penalties?

[Tuljin]

Some people rolled Necromancer before Kunark was released and never rolled another. Some people rolled a Necro before Kunark and rerolled and releveled an Iksar.

The Iksar regen is great but people still roll non-Iksar necros and still make it to 60 just fine. Because everybody is min/max crazy around here everyone goes Iksar. Some people still roll what they want to roll despite the superiority of the Iksar regen.

I have played many hours of high level dungeons with both Iksar and non-Iksar necros (who are also excellent players) and if youre not calculating potential XP per hour soloing any Necromancer can do their job just fine even without regen.

[williestargell]

EXP penalty is good enough reason to pick any of the other races that can be necros. Greater solo exp gained with the Iksar is a relatively even balance with the exp penalty.

Iksar faction is also a total pain in the ass and wastes alot of time factioning so that you can bank and vendor places that could be used for other things.

[Tenlaar]

EXP penalty is good enough reason to pick any of the other races that can be necros. Greater solo exp gained with the Iksar is a relatively even balance with the exp penalty.

Until you get to level 60, and then nothing balances the iksar's regen advantage.

[dafier]

Until you get to level 60, and then nothing balances the iksar's regen advantage.

^^

[tarkhis]

I leveled on live pre-kunark and loved my DE necro so I re-rolled one here for nostalgia. I never had any issues with liching or efficiency. When you look at half these min-max things its all naked or under geared toons and then a DE has to do an extra lifetap so it becomes soooooo inefficient /end sarcasm.

I all end game gear on my DE and had no issues twitching everyone.

[Beinen]

Good, in that case gnome is best race ;)

[ctre]

If you want to level the fastest. >>> (Gnome is the overall fastest)
If you want the strongest level 60 race >>> (Iksar is the overall strongest)

The rest is all debatable.. as all have there good/bad sides.

[webrunner5]

I sort of like Iksars for more than their Regen. :) I like the fact that they are hated Everywhere other than their home city. So you know where you stand. You ARE KoS. So guess what you will not loose much sleep if your faction gets worse because it already is. :p

So just kill any mob, any guard, quest giver, vender, who gives a crap. With any other race you might be fine to 90% of the NPC's and wham, one jumps up and kills you in a city. Well piss on that. Roll a Iksar, problem solved. :D That's why they have FD. :cool:

[Pipip]

I sort of like Iksars for more than their Regen. :) I like the fact that they are hated Everywhere other than their home city. So you know where you stand. You ARE KoS. So guess what you will not loose much sleep if your faction gets worse because it already is. :p

So just kill any mob, any guard, quest giver, vender, who gives a crap. With any other race you might be fine to 90% of the NPC's and wham, one jumps up and kills you in a city. Well piss on that. Roll a Iksar, problem solved. :D That's why they have FD. :cool:

I was on the fence with my necro race choice, but this sealed it for me, thank you. Iksar it is :)

[Faywind]

I sort of like Iksars for more than their Regen. :) I like the fact that they are hated Everywhere other than their home city. So you know where you stand. You ARE KoS. So guess what you will not loose much sleep if your faction gets worse because it already is. :p

So just kill any mob, any guard, quest giver, vender, who gives a crap. With any other race you might be fine to 90% of the NPC's and wham, one jumps up and kills you in a city. Well piss on that. Roll a Iksar, problem solved. :D That's why they have FD. :cool:

Iksar Necro's also look WAY better than the other ugly races. Robes are cooler, animations much better (esp FD)...

[Daldaen]

It really is incredible having Lich on a 51-59 Iksar Necro and standing next to a non-Iksar in the same level range and seeing how drastic their health loss is compare to your own.

Same deal at 60 with Demi Lich. It is a huge factor when solo. When on a raid, especially in Velious, Regrowth of the Grove BP clicks from Druids and the worn regen / clicky regen options help to lessen the blow from Demi Lich, but nothing will ever make up for the Iksar regen.

A standing Necro has 8 less regen and a sitting Necro has 11 less regen if non-Iksar. Meaning a non-Iksar need a Zlandicar Heart (5 regen), and 2 other Aura of Battle (2 regen) items to equal the standing regen of an Iksar Necro wearing nothing but cloth.

Iksar is only Necro option pre-Luclin/PoP when HP Regen items became more prevalent. I'm extremely glad I went Iksar on P99.

[Xaanka]

gnomes can wall look i guess but who am i kidding?

[ctre]

gnomes can wall look i guess but who am i kidding?

You for get that gnomes can tinker. They get there health back by using that
So standing Regen is moot, (be it the gnome has to tinker eyeballs).
Iksar AC is a big factor.
The Int on the Gnome is a big +, (However as a Necro Int is not super important).

[Brujean]

Gnomes 4 lyfe

[Daldaen]

You for get that gnomes can tinker. They get there health back by using that
So standing Regen is moot, (be it the gnome has to tinker eyeballs).
Iksar AC is a big factor.
The Int on the Gnome is a big +, (However as a Necro Int is not super important).

Wait... You meant Iksar regen right? Cause AC is the largest non factor of a stat on Necro I can think of.

If so, change big factor to only factor.

[rxfh]

I rolled a DE nec on vanilla pre kunark. I like the race/class combo. I like Iksars too but playing what you like > min/maxing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with non-iksars. In fact the biggest advantage for regen is when soloing. In raids you have a lot of hp from being buffed, can grab a quick regen from a shm/druid and odds are you'll be using lifetap to offset larger amounts of damage than lich anyway (to keep healing pressure off clerics/secondary healers) so it becomes a moot point. With the damage raid mobs do it's not all that big of a factor for raid recovery. Knowledge and skill matter more.

For soloing with Velious around the corner and HEBs it's even less of a factor.

If I wanted to min/max I'd play a modern game, on p99 I screw around for nostalgia. Anyone who takes this 16 year old game super seriously with min/maxing needs to get a grip imho.

[ctre]

Wait... You meant Iksar regen right? Cause AC is the largest non factor of a stat on Necro I can think of.

If so, change big factor to only factor.

Exactly..
** Iksar regen is great, (no messing about).
** Gnomes in lich form can life tap tinkered eyeballs.(some messing about required), (and also cannot have a pet up).
But health is kept up, be the mana regen a little bit down.

A good example of this use.. Charm soloing the Frenzy room in lower guk.
With just normal regen you will normally wait for the mobs to spawn.. and process them with your mana and lich.
When life tapping tinkered eyeballs. you will have 0 downtime. Clear other rooms as well, and come back ready for the frenzy.
A bad case for this will be if you have a pet up.. then the trick with tinkered eyeballs fails, (however necro's want to always kill unded right?).

And yes the AC bonus is a big factor. With the Cloth class, I see it makes a difference, (I will typically see that extra 1 or even possibly 2 hits of dmg that put's you over the edge to thinking about a FD).
I have duoed a lot with other necro's in HS, this is the impression I got doing this and my opinion.

[pharmakos]

If you want to level the fastest. >>> (Gnome is the overall fastest)

huh? how do you figure?

[Daldaen]

huh? how do you figure?

I think he is trying to make the case that stalking probes speed up leveling. I have 8 on my Necro and I think I've only used like 10 charges in the past few months. Then again I have Iksar regen so maybe that's why I don't have to use them.

The limitation of no pet and needing to be in a safe location the eye won't aggro things means I use it after a Rez to Vexing and continue liching.

Beyond that I don't find much use in the probes. But no, gnome doesn't level any faster than human, DE, Erudite. The probes have extremely minor utility IMO. And because they are extra cheap and vendor rechargeable, any race can use them with equal success.

[williestargell]

...I like Iksars too but playing what you like > min/maxing....

+1

[Beinen]

I do like the theory that "necromancy is evil and if you're going to be evil class might as well go full evil like iksar" theory. But sometimes getting back to cab is a struggle.

[Ando]

I do like the theory that "necromancy is evil and if you're going to be evil class might as well go full evil like iksar" theory. But sometimes getting back to cab is a struggle.

At lvl 34 and on, your skellie illusion lich spells allow you to bank/sell in almost any evil city.

[Beinen]

At lvl 34 and on, your skellie illusion lich spells allow you to bank/sell in almost any evil city.

What about good cities?

[Daldaen]

What about good cities?

Almost every bank you can use by hidding behind a wall, getting into a 3rd person view and right clicking on a banker. Even if you're KoS to them.

The only annoyance I had on Iksar Necro was going back to train pre-34 (Call of Bones lets you train in I think all Necro guild's). And you really only have to train up to level 22 and then research every 10 levels or so. Banking wasn't typically an issue. Selling you can always use Druid ring vendors and gypsies (usually close to a Necro sell location) or Call of Bones when high enough.

OT vendors being greedy is really annoying though. Being able to buy reagent from them at a reasonable price would be fantastic.

[Teppler]

I don't really see regeneration on necro as a big deal at all. A good necro is constantly active making use of their life taps.

[Beinen]

I don't really see regeneration on necro as a big deal at all. A good necro is constantly active making use of their life taps.

Right, I guess at top levels over 60 seconds(10 ticks) the extra hp regen would prolly only be about 1 tick of a life tap over time spell I'd imagine. So iksars require 1 less tick of a life tap dot per minute. Idk as I'm not a high end necro, this only assumption. But if this is true it doesn't seem to be a big deal after all.

[Teppler]

Right, I guess at top levels over 60 seconds(10 ticks) the extra hp regen would prolly only be about 1 tick of a life tap over time spell I'd imagine. So iksars require 1 less tick of a life tap dot per minute. Idk as I'm not a high end necro, this only assumption. But if this is true it doesn't seem to be a big deal after all.

If you're soloing and getting the most out of your necro (aka charming) you need to do stuff to finish off mobs anyway so why not use a life tap? I do think the regeneration tends to look better on paper then it actually is in practice.

[pharmakos]

lifetaps are not mana efficient as far as the amount of damage you're doing to a mob, though. mana you're spending on lifetaps is mana that you're not spending on pure-damage DOTs.

[Teppler]

lifetaps are not mana efficient as far as the amount of damage you're doing to a mob, though. mana you're spending on lifetaps is mana that you're not spending on pure-damage DOTs.

There's a lot of complexities. Often times your pure damage DOTs are overkills. Sometimes you want to do a bit of damage and quick. Something like Deflux is a great tool. It's a fast cast and the damage per mana is comparable to other DDs although falls behind just a bit. Other times pyro and vexing mordiana will both kill so it doesn't really matter which one you use.

Sometimes you will want to be using the pure damage DOTs and not want to waste time with the life taps but I guess my overall point is that it doesn't come up as much as people might think when looking at this stuff on paper.

[pharmakos]

having played both an erudite necromancer and an iksar necromancer (pulled a sesserdrix =p) there is definitely a noticeable difference

i like to min/max, though. play whatever you'd like.

[Brujean]

Iksar's extra regen is very situational, despite all the fancy talk that the iksars will spew about how "overwhelmingly important" it is and how much it is "superior" to other races. Iksar regen is a crutch, used by necros who just aren't very good at the class.

[Monty405]

I chose gnome since I had never seriously leveled a 'little person' on EQ before. Also, standing out from the crowd is important to me - even if it is not optimal.

[Teppler]

Another thing to think about is that when you have naturally high int, you can cap that out easier and work on +hp & mana gear which will make you situationally stronger in other areas. Situations where you're dealing with bursts and the extra hp/mana helps.

[pharmakos]

Iksar regen is a crutch, used by necros who just aren't very good at the class.

lol wat

did you just say that everyone who plays an iksar necro isn't very good at their class?

hahahaha the fear of being lizard is warping your mind, son.

[Ando]

Iksar regen is a crutch, used by necros who just aren't very good at the class.

Making broad statements like all Iksar necros are bad necros is probably the fastest way to show you have literally zero idea of what you're talking about.

[Beinen]

Well, for the record, I made a Dark Elf necro :D

[Mordyth]

DE Necro. LOVE race/class combo. Lore is amazing, death is what the DE race is all about.

[Kawhi]

Iksar regen is a crutch, used by necros who just aren't very good at the class.

And gear too for that matter. I just laugh at all these pussy Iksar necros who have to use gear. Man up, put your points in wisdom, and fight naked.

[Beinen]

And gear too for that matter. I just laugh at all these pussy Iksar necros who have to use gear. Man up, put your points in wisdom, and fight naked.

I have done that, kinda. All agility 5 stamina for my newbie butt dark elf necro. That including my 50 skill hide ability makes me a superior player to those who went +int/sta on iksar race.

By the way, feel free to provide those clothing items so I may leave the starting area with confidence! ;)

[Faywind]

Iksar's extra regen is very situational, despite all the fancy talk that the iksars will spew about how "overwhelmingly important" it is and how much it is "superior" to other races. Iksar regen is a crutch, used by necros who just aren't very good at the class.

Yikes...I'm guessing you've never played an Necro.

Only people who have played an iksar and non-iksar Necro can really chime in on how important regen is. I followed Sesserdrix's advice since he seems to be the most knowledgeable Necro on these forums. Look up his posts, seriously...

[Brujean]

Yikes...I'm guessing you've never played an Necro.

Only people who have played an iksar and non-iksar Necro can really chime in on how important regen is. I followed Sesserdrix's advice since he seems to be the most knowledgeable Necro on these forums. Look up his posts, seriously...

You are one of the many necro sheep on this server playing iksar, I feel sorry for you but I won't hold it against you. I hope you enjoy the race, honestly... Your smug superiority only brings a smile to us non-iksar necros, trust me on that.. You truly have taken the path of Sesserdrix, hah!

[Ando]

You are one of the many necro sheep on this server playing iksar, I feel sorry for you but I won't hold it against you. I hope you enjoy the race, honestly... Your smug superiority only brings a smile to us non-iksar necros, trust me on that.. You truly have taken the path of Sesserdrix, hah!

Jesus christ you sound like a toolbag.

[Nuggie]

Seriously. I'm not the minmaxer guy but when you have Lich spells... How do you not go Iksar?

Didn't read all posts. To the OP.

Because I made my necro before kunark came out.

[Beinen]

Didn't read all posts. To the OP.

Because I made my necro before kunark came out.

Amen to that. Glad you didn't read most of this crap

[Tiewon Shu]

Making broad statements like all Iksar necros are bad necros is probably the fastest way to show you have literally zero idea of what you're talking about.

How about saying it another way like:

Non-Iksar necromancers are more challenging to play than Iksar necromancers due to their lack of innate regeneration, extra armor class, incredible starting zone, and loot areas.

[Tuljin]

^

I've known people that are excellent players that rolled necro other than Iksar because they felt like it and they do just fine. A friend of mine rolled Erudite Nec alt and got him to 60. Its not a horrible choice because you can crank all your points into Sta due to the high Int total. Erudites make the best int casters IMHO due to not only to high int but their high Sta, racial MR bonus, and rarity/awesomeness. Gnome isn't bad either, though they have less Int.

I also think some people are trying to say that despite the Iksar regen advantage some people still suck. Its an accurate statement lol

[pharmakos]

Well, for the record, I made a Dark Elf necro :D

you'll do okay

[Beinen]

you'll do okay

Thanks, so far my piercing skill has brought me success!

[Faywind]

You are one of the many necro sheep on this server playing iksar, I feel sorry for you but I won't hold it against you. I hope you enjoy the race, honestly... Your smug superiority only brings a smile to us non-iksar necros, trust me on that.. You truly have taken the path of Sesserdrix, hah!

Relax dude. All I meant was that you can't dismiss regen as " a nice to have" ability. It really is a huge bonus.

I play Iksar because it's my favourite race and just so happens to be the min/max choice for a necro /shrug.

[fishingme]

I made a darkelf necro pre-kunark on p99 and an iksar necro when kunark came out. The regeneration isn't a must have, but any other necro race will be left in the dust. Plus, the 105 strength on a necro farming character..... Yes please!

[Beinen]

Yes strength is an issue! I realized that when I was encumbered with empty backpacks!

[Pipip]

If you're an iksar necro, there's a vendor that sells Medicine Bags right in the field of bone. if you're heading from the city to the pit, she's in the building on your left, upstairs. Much lighter than backpacks and it holds the same stuff.

[Ando]

How about saying it another way like:

Non-Iksar necromancers are more challenging to play than Iksar necromancers due to their lack of innate regeneration, extra armor class, incredible starting zone, and loot areas.

I agree 100% with what you said, but unfortunately for OP, that is not at all what he said, or what he meant.

[fishingme]

I have to add another reason behind choosing iksar. There's a point in time where you're going to have to emergency afk while in oot and you will forget about lich, even if you think you won't forget you will, trust me.... The iksar regen will make it so you don't die and won't have to do a corpse run to oot nor will you have to pay 500 or more platinum to get a res.

[Beinen]

I have to add another reason behind choosing iksar. There's a point in time where you're going to have to emergency afk while in oot and you will forget about lich, even if you think you won't forget you will, trust me.... The iksar regen will make it so you don't die and won't have to do a corpse run to oot nor will you have to pay 500 or more platinum to get a res.

Amen to that. Sounds like experience talking

[justin2090]

Iksars look so awesome. I think my necro would be Iksar regardless of hp regen.

[fishingme]

I have to add another thing after reading through some comments. The only people who are insulting iksar necros clearly have pent up iksar necro envy. The majority of the best necros I have met on this server are iksars. The difference were talking about here is a warrior with a fungi tunic(iksar necro) or a warrior without a fungi(darkelf necro). Of course you can get the job done without being an iksar but the difference between iksar and any other necro race is an iksar can solo 2 to 3 times more than that of a non-iksar.

[Uteunayr]

All about the stylish, awesome FD animation. No other race matches the beauty of the overly Shakespearean, glorious flop. The others just lay on their sides and curl up like they are weak and pathetic.

Really, I see 2 big reasons for not being Iksar.

1) You made your character pre-Kunark. Not everyone can reroll, or should. I did because it was important to me that my character not be a throttle on my performance.

2) You have a subjective attachment to another race. There is no one who can tell you you shouldn't be a Dark Elf Necromancer if you find value in being a Dark Elf. That's subjective, and that's the way you assign value. That's why when I updated information on the necromancer page, I stated "Go Iksar if you care about min/maxing and having a leg up in terms of efficiency. Non-Iksar can still get the job done." If min/maxing is something which concerns you (being the numerically best race), then go Iksar. But there are other concerns people can have when making their character.

My concern in telling people to go Iksar so often is because too many people come to Project 1999 from games like World of Warcraft, where race by and large doesn't matter much at all. Because of this, they pick any race, and by the time they are level 40-50 and start to learn the class a lot more, it hits them: Oh, Iksar is numerically better. Now, if you're someone who values the race you chose over the regeneration, AC, etc. Then you wont have a problem, and all of this "Go Iksar!" shit wont bother you. But if you're someone that does care, suddenly you're trapped with a character, and you'll keep leveling the one with the inferior race (in terms of min/max) because of sunk costs. That is what I want to prevent people from doing. People should know the value of Iksar, and of the other races, before making a choice so they never feel trapped in sunk costs.

[Froakula]

Sesserdrix thanks for your guide it's been really helpful to me thru 24 so far. One question, stein of ulissa is in your guide to get, it doesn't show nec as usable classes. The click still works tho?

[eisley]

Iksar faction is also a total pain in the ass and wastes alot of time factioning so that you can bank and vendor places that could be used for other things.

It's crazy to me that so many people think Iksars have any sort of banking restrictions. I wonder how many people run all the way back to Cab just to bank.. yikes

[pharmakos]

Sesserdrix thanks for your guide it's been really helpful to me thru 24 so far. One question, stein of ulissa is in your guide to get, it doesn't show nec as usable classes. The click still works tho?

yes, any class can click Stein of Ulissa from their inventory. it is a must-have item for all pet classes, not just mage.

[Brujean]

Yeah, have fun min/maxing so well on paper, of course in the actual game things are a lot different. Lawl assumed Iksar superiority.

[ctre]

One Key thing.
The Iksar is the safest race to kill mobs with.

All other races are definitely not as safe.

The only real downside I can see with Iksar is int, ( they are dumb mofo-s ). /shrug that is all.

[Brujean]

One Key thing.
The Iksar is the safest race to kill mobs with.

All other races are definitely not as safe.

The only real downside I can see with Iksar is int, ( they are dumb mofo-s ). /shrug that is all.

Yes. This.

Iksar regen doesn't regen your mana any faster. As long as a non-iksar race can keep up lich without dying, there is no damn difference between the races (well except the massive int difference, allowing gnomes etc. to stack HP items easier). When you get into real high-end raid and group situations, maybe you'll see for yourself; hell, I often refuse to dispel shadowbond on myself just to keep it interesting; clerics are crying for me to stop twitching cause all the mana is going to make them explode... false iksar superiority is false.

[Llodd]

yes, any class can click Stein of Ulissa from their inventory. it is a must-have item for all pet classes, not just mage.

Any of them work from inv, not just the stein: (incase you want to play fashionquest ;p)

http://wiki.project1999.com/Vira

[Crawdad]

1) ...As long as a non-iksar race can keep up lich without dying, there is no damn difference between the races (well except the massive int difference, allowing gnomes etc. to stack HP items easier)....
2)When you get into real high-end raid and group situations, maybe you'll see for yourself
3)... I often refuse to dispel shadowbond on myself just to keep it interesting; clerics are crying for me to stop twitching cause all the mana is going to make them explode... false iksar superiority is false.

1) The actual point is that Iksars have a much easier time not dying to Lich than other races. 18hp/tick vs 7hp/tick doesn't sound like much, but with Lich going it adds up quickly.

A Fungi tunic is 15hp/tick and currently fetches 65k.. I wonder how much Zlandi hearts will go for on this server, and why every necro on the server will want one..

2) I played an Erudite necro on Live and raided quite a bit Kunark through PoP. You aren't going to notice something like Hp regen outside of wipes/close calls. You do come off as quite condescending though so congratulations?

3) I actively tell people not to min/max and just enjoy the game... but some people actually enjoy min/maxing. Good or bad, there are clearly some race/class combinations that are better than others in EQ, and Iksar Necro happens to be one of them... also, why would you purposely play poorly?

You can curse and complain all you want, but numbers don't lie. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to min/max. If you don't like Iksars, don't play one. Nobody is going to turn you away for being a gnome/other inferior race. They might if you come off as a douche, though.

[Beinen]

Idk if I've stated I made it to level 12 as a dark elf necro!! Woot! I've noticed how iksar regen has caused other necros to fail where I have not..... Yes they died as where I lived in my undead like ways. I have seen iksar necros over the weekend run through areas like EC, nektulos and g fay to be destroyed by guards and their regen and ac bonuses have caused them, or rather not provided assistance to their survival and lost experience as where I have not!

[Tiewon Shu]

I agree 100% with what you said, but unfortunately for OP, that is not at all what he said, or what he meant.

True true. I have an Erudite Necromancer because I like aesthetics (Erudite Females are beautiful) and the challenge of it all. I can live without regen because all my robes look swanky and cool! :D

That said, I did play and Iksar necro on live, and I can tell you that the regen saves you so many times when you are in the "purple" zone on your health bar after killing a mob and the mob's DoT is still active on your character.

[Faywind]

I have to add another thing after reading through some comments. The only people who are insulting iksar necros clearly have pent up iksar necro envy. The majority of the best necros I have met on this server are iksars. The difference were talking about here is a warrior with a fungi tunic(iksar necro) or a warrior without a fungi(darkelf necro). Of course you can get the job done without being an iksar but the difference between iksar and any other necro race is an iksar can solo 2 to 3 times more than that of a non-iksar.

So much of this on this thread :)

[Mordyth]

Idk if I've stated I made it to level 12 as a dark elf necro!! Woot! I've noticed how iksar regen has caused other necros to fail where I have not..... Yes they died as where I lived in my undead like ways. I have seen iksar necros over the weekend run through areas like EC, nektulos and g fay to be destroyed by guards and their regen and ac bonuses have caused them, or rather not provided assistance to their survival and lost experience as where I have not!

People here are really referring to end game stuff. You wont be in EC all that long really. Necros on a whole are hated pretty much everywhere and when you are out in the big, wide world they'll tell you the little edge you get from being iksar really helps.

That being said, I love RP on my DE.

[mrshzzit]

11+ regen sitting at 60 is nothing

[captnamazing]

for reasons

[Beinen]

I do know if I was iksar at level 8 with the first Lich spell it would basically be free mana. With it running as a DE my hp doesn't move sitting. But it's easily balanced by 1 out of every 5 mins in kiting I just snare fear spam life tap. Really hasn't affected my game much yet. However I am 12 and haven't tried with my new spells but I will update everyone and this seems to be the caster forums favorite thread currently.

-Humyan 12 Dark Elf Necromancer

[Manticmuse]

The real issue here is Sesserdrix has been lost to Elite: Dangerous.

[ctre]

Yes. This.

Iksar regen doesn't regen your mana any faster. As long as a non-iksar race can keep up lich without dying, there is no damn difference between the races (well except the massive int difference, allowing gnomes etc. to stack HP items easier). When you get into real high-end raid and group situations, maybe you'll see for yourself; hell, I often refuse to dispel shadowbond on myself just to keep it interesting; clerics are crying for me to stop twitching cause all the mana is going to make them explode... false iksar superiority is false.

Actually my post was in relation to when you are soloing mobs.
Re-edited to fix it for you.

One Key thing, (when soloing).
The Iksar is the safest race to kill mobs with.

All other races are definitely not as safe.

The only real downside I can see with Iksar is int, ( they are dumb mofo-s ). /shrug that is all.

[ctre]

Wait... You meant Iksar regen right? Cause AC is the largest non factor of a stat on Necro I can think of.

If so, change big factor to only factor.

My comment was in relation to soloing and killing mobs. You can churn a slightly smaller, similar number of mobs as a gnome, (when using eyeballs) vs iksar soloing.

As to the comment on levelling faster, yes you will. As the gnome race has a much lower xp penalty.
As I stated a long time in the past. A gnome can hit 60 by the time an iksar hits 50.
Is that a min max thing? Yes. Is it the best thing at the end of the day?

/shrug.. your views sit here. ****

[webrunner5]

How about saying it another way like:

Non-Iksar necromancers are more challenging to play than Iksar necromancers due to their lack of innate regeneration, extra armor class, incredible starting zone, and loot areas.

I'll second that lol. Nuff said. :p OK, what is the next goofy topic. :eek:

[webrunner5]

Because everybody is min/max crazy around here everyone goes Iksar. Some people still roll what they want to roll despite the superiority of the Iksar regen.

Why do I get a feeling that this person is not in TMO. :D

[absol]

I do really love their starting areas (heck I love all of Kunark). I accept and understand that Iksar's racial bonus is better suited to Necro's than any other race, but that isn't a good enough reason for me to play one. It all comes down to aesthetics I suppose, and I'm not taken by the look of the Iksar. I play a Dark Elf because I love the lore and the fact that they treat being evil as a religion, I like Neriak and 3rd Gate music, and they just look cool to me.

I am a min maxer I suppose, in as much as I'll try to find the best spots for me to xp, or I'm always looking for loot (hard to do with 70pp to your name hah) but I guess that doesn't extend to racial bonuses. Maybe I will regret it at 60, I don't know yet. But for now, I've undoubtably made the best choice.

First post, yay!

[ctre]

I do really love their starting areas (heck I love all of Kunark). I accept and understand that Iksar's racial bonus is better suited to Necro's than any other race, but that isn't a good enough reason for me to play one. It all comes down to aesthetics I suppose, and I'm not taken by the look of the Iksar. I play a Dark Elf because I love the lore and the fact that they treat being evil as a religion, I like Neriak and 3rd Gate music, and they just look cool to me.

I am a min maxer I suppose, in as much as I'll try to find the best spots for me to xp, or I'm always looking for loot (hard to do with 70pp to your name hah) but I guess that doesn't extend to racial bonuses. Maybe I will regret it at 60, I don't know yet. But for now, I've undoubtably made the best choice.

First post, yay!

We sir admire and respect your choice.
not everybody likes scales.

:D:D:D:D:D

[Beinen]

Welcome to the forums!

[Krashin]

Gnomes...tinker and look through walls ... $$

[Pseudosin]

Thought I'd chime in, play with an iksar necro on blue, been raiding with a beta buffed gnome necro on beta. Having only played an iksar, I didn't realize how much of an advantage they really had.

Regen difference is huge; in scenarios where you are sitting around buffing your raid, talking about strategies, or recovering from a wipe, lich eats gnome health fast. With iksar, lich eats it much slower, and has a positive net gain while sitting with regen on.

Remphasis, a gnome necro with regen and demi-lich does not have a net +hp. An iksar does. This results in the gnome having to constantly click lich off and on, or constantly waste other peoples mana to keep them healed.

Play whatever you want, just my observation is it really is a huge difference at 60.

[uolen]

And that's what it comes down to. Sure make your race choice based on aesthetics. Just don't get to 60 lookin the exact same like a floating skeleton and wondering why your hp is going down three times faster... Go non iksar if you like to roleplay. otherwise iksar...

[Daldaen]

Yea I had to recopy my Iksar.

Epic, PD and DMF robes don't make up for being a gnome. Plus the damn gnome doesn't even have a Soul Well Staff (seriously wtf).

I definitely noticed the difference and decided Iksar even at 58 > 60 gnome.

[Synthlol]

I can respect pre-kunark gnome necromancers. If you rolled anything other than a gnome before kunark or an iksar after kunark, you chose poorly.

[ddxdy]

Iksar vs non-iksar is the difference of having something like a Zheart or not. Arguably the most powerful necro item that p99 will have, being a non-iksar with zheart puts you on the same level as an iksar without one.

[Daldaen]

It's even more extreme than that. The difference in regen (standing) at 60 is 8 HP regen. Z-Heart is 5.

So a gnome with a Z-Heart is still 3 less HP regen than a naked Iksar Necromancer.

Hell a gnome with a Z-Heart and 1 of the 2 Aura of Battle (2 HP regen) Necro usable items from Velious, is STILL 1 HP regen less than a naked Iksar Necromancer.

It's pretty ridiculous. This is the table for level 60 with Demi Lich (stand - feign - sit):

Non-Iksar with Demi-Lich - 28 - 27 - 25
Iksar with Demi-Lich.......- 20 - 18 - 14

A sitting Iksar Necro can overcome Demi Lich with just a Regrowth from a Druid. A gnome would need Regrowth, Z-Heart, 2 Aura of Battle items and they would STILL be losing 1 HP a tick.

A standing Iksar Necro can overcome Demi Lich with just a Regrowth and Z-Heart. A gnome would be losing 9 even if he had the extra 4 regen from 2 Aura of Battle items.

Solo, using 10th Ring clicky and Z-Heart an Iksar Necro can sit with Demi Lich and not lose HP.

Etc. etc.

[Robbintha Hood]

Iksars are great necros, no doubt about it. But I chose to roll Dark Elf just because.

[webrunner5]

Gnomes...tinker and look through walls ... $$

This person speaks the truth. :D Not counting Males look Cool. Females, well...

[pharmakos]

It's even more extreme than that. The difference in regen (standing) at 60 is 8 HP regen. Z-Heart is 5.

So a gnome with a Z-Heart is still 3 less HP regen than a naked Iksar Necromancer.

Hell a gnome with a Z-Heart and 1 of the 2 Aura of Battle (2 HP regen) Necro usable items from Velious, is STILL 1 HP regen less than a naked Iksar Necromancer.

It's pretty ridiculous. This is the table for level 60 with Demi Lich (stand - feign - sit):

Non-Iksar with Demi-Lich - 28 - 27 - 25
Iksar with Demi-Lich.......- 20 - 18 - 14

A sitting Iksar Necro can overcome Demi Lich with just a Regrowth from a Druid. A gnome would need Regrowth, Z-Heart, 2 Aura of Battle items and they would STILL be losing 1 HP a tick.

A standing Iksar Necro can overcome Demi Lich with just a Regrowth and Z-Heart. A gnome would be losing 9 even if he had the extra 4 regen from 2 Aura of Battle items.

Solo, using 10th Ring clicky and Z-Heart an Iksar Necro can sit with Demi Lich and not lose HP.

Etc. etc.

and just to put that in perspective -- how much do you guys think Zlandicar's Heart will sell for? i'm thinking prices comparable to AoN.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

How do you do it? Simple. Throw math out the window.

[Daldaen]

How do you do it? Simple. Throw math out the window.

I cannot throw the most pure science form out the window - Does not compute.

Iksars are the best. Everything else is fashionquest.

[ddxdy]

and just to put that in perspective -- how much do you guys think Zlandicar's Heart will sell for? i'm thinking prices comparable to AoN.

Hard to compare, AoN is a purely fashionquest item that everyone desires, Zheart is functional item that really only one class desires.

The zheart is a common drop, and zlandicar's respawn rate is about 3 days. So figure 10 zlandicars are killed per month.

Lets say the average guild gets 3 zlandicars a month, then they are getting 1-2 zhearts per month.

If there are on average 10 active necros per guild wanting zheart, you've got 5-10 months before all the mains in a guild have zheart.

Pretty hard to predict because it will probably be unbalanced and one guild getting more kills/hearts than another but they won't hit the market till a guild starts getting excess hearts.

I can easily see 200-300k per zheart as a stabilized price, and zhearts not hitting the market and being sold for the first 10 months.

Still cheaper/better than necro epic.

[pharmakos]

so picking any race other than iksar is like sacrificing a free ~250k item.

[Crawdad]

so picking any race other than iksar is like sacrificing a free ~250k item.

Except Zlandi heart is +5hp/tick and at 60 Iksar is +11hp/tick.

[kaev]

Non-Iksar necro strat: Group with a paladin! He'll be so happy to have a friend he'll keep you healed no questions asked!

A fungi tunic is 15hp/tick standing or sitting, even so the overwhelming majority of melees & hybrids & even shamans here somehow get by without one despite taking damage all the time. An Iksar necro has a useful edge, but any necro in skilled hands is very powerful and effective, soloing extremely well and pulling his weight & then some in a group.

Mountain? Nope, molehill.

[ddxdy]

Non-Iksar necro strat: Group with a paladin! He'll be so happy to have a friend he'll keep you healed no questions asked!

A fungi tunic is 15hp/tick standing or sitting, even so the overwhelming majority of melees & hybrids & even shamans here somehow get by without one despite taking damage all the time. An Iksar necro has a useful edge, but any necro in skilled hands is very powerful and effective, soloing extremely well and pulling his weight & then some in a group.

Mountain? Nope, molehill.

The difference is those melees/tanks don't have a persistent 20 dmg/tick hitting them. That's what we're talking about, that's a fundamental part of the necro class.

[Teppler]

If you're going to talk about maxing out a velious necro also take into consideration they have access to lifetap clickies.

[Daldaen]

32 at level 60***

But yea. It's not worth comparing any other class to Necro when evaluating the value of regen. Only Shamans have an okay argument.

[Teppler]

The difference is those melees/tanks don't have a persistent 20 dmg/tick hitting them. That's what we're talking about, that's a fundamental part of the necro class.

It's useful but the argument against it is that it's marginal. Necros have access to great lifetaps that are DDs and DoTs that are hard to be resisted making them useful for both doing damage and healing the necro.

When high end necros in velious have DD clickies & lifetap clickies, what are you really going to be using mana on?

http://wiki.project1999.com/Bone_Ring_of_Condemnation

http://wiki.project1999.com/Bone_Bracelet_of_Condemnation

http://wiki.project1999.com/Shissar_Deathspeaker_Staff

[Daldaen]

If you're going to talk about maxing out a velious necro also take into consideration they have access to lifetap clickies.

There are two.

1 from VP
1 from Velketor

The Velketor one sucks. The VP one is good. Even with those, a gnome will have to spend more time clicking 10s cast time rings or staves to top his health off than an Iksar will. That Iksar will be able to med more or cast more in that time.

A high end raiding Necro will be spending The majority of their mana twitching. Occasionally getting a few DoTs on a raid mob is nice (though stacking isn't nice until PoP). Many times there are only magic immune raid mobs in camp so you can't lifetap. You can stalking probe or holgresh beads but that's time wasted and mana wasted if you don't have a VP staff, mana that could've been another CH.

[Teppler]

There are two.

1 from VP
1 from Velketor

The Velketor one sucks. The VP one is good. Even with those, a gnome will have to spend more time clicking 10s cast time rings or staves to top his health off than an Iksar will. That Iksar will be able to med more or cast more in that time.

A high end raiding Necro will be spending The majority of their mana twitching. Occasionally getting a few DoTs on a raid mob is nice (though stacking isn't nice until PoP). Many times there are only magic immune raid mobs in camp so you can't lifetap. You can stalking probe or holgresh beads but that's time wasted and mana wasted if you don't have a VP staff, mana that could've been another CH.

There's a number of ways you can make use of a high end necro. 1 of them is raiding. 1 is solo farming. The other is group farming. On a good deal of raids you'll still have targets you can lifetap which helps add to dps so it's not a complete wash. And lifetap dps can be very useful when solo and group farming.

If you have all the gadgets, what are you using your mana on when soloing/group farming?

[pharmakos]

so this thread has degraded to "what do necros even need mana for anyway?"

lol the fear of lizard is strong

[Teppler]

so this thread has degraded to "what do necros even need mana for anyway?"

lol the fear of lizard is strong

No need to dumb down the debate.

Shaman have gone through the very same thing when talking about the benefits of Troll regen at 60 when they have Torpor. I think it's the same. The regen is useful, most useful on raids, but outside that, kinda marginal.

[pharmakos]

the opposite is true for Necromancers. the regen is better for solo/group than for raids.

[Teppler]

the opposite is true for Necromancers. the regen is better for solo/group than for raids.

Na. It's more useful in raids where there's no mobs to lifetap for sure. Outside that it's only firmly better in certain situations. If you can make use of lifetap dps, how much more useful do you believe it to be and why?

[pharmakos]

i suppose i have 45second long Kunark raids in mind when i think of how regen doesn't mean crap for raids. it will certainly matter in long Velious fights.

[Teppler]

And on raids how are you not gonna have regrowth + SLN too? Most groups you'll have access to regrowth also with how prevalent and useful shaman are to high level content.

[iruinedyourday]

I would argue that dark elves look cooler, but what diff does it make when your end goal is to hold a goose skull on a staff in a world where there are no birds. yuck.

[Synthlol]

Hard to compare, AoN is a purely fashionquest item that everyone desires.

Did you actually just call the only instant click item in the game that doesn't require a target, shrinks large races, manipulates faction, is usuable from inventory by any class at level one, and imparts no negative effects on the user 'purely fashionquest'?

Do you know nothing about this game?

[Synthlol]

No need to dumb down the debate.

Shaman have gone through the very same thing when talking about the benefits of Troll regen at 60 when they have Torpor. I think it's the same. The regen is useful, most useful on raids, but outside that, kinda marginal.

You're arguing that necromancers don't even need extra regen to counteract lich because they don't really need mana because there's a drop from Veeshan's Peak with a 13.5 second cast time that slowly restores hp for no mana and clickable nuke rings that drop from the boss of a zone that hasn't been released yet?

The fact that you're comparing racial regen on an necromancer running demi lich to a torpor shaman and calling it marginal tells us that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Play necromancers running demi lich both with and without iksar regen and then come back and tell us what you've learned.

[mrshzzit]

You're arguing that necromancers don't even need extra regen to counteract lich because they don't really need mana because there's a drop from Veeshan's Peak with a 13.5 second cast time that slowly restores hp for no mana and clickable nuke rings that drop from the boss of a zone that hasn't been released yet?

The fact that you're comparing racial regen on an necromancer running demi lich to a torpor shaman and calling it marginal tells us that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Play necromancers running demi lich both with and without iksar regen and then come back and tell us what you've learned.


14 regen sitting at 60 is nothing. And you seem pretty angry.

[Synthlol]

you seem pretty angry.

Not sure how you got anger, but feel free to make up whatever tone you like when you read my posts.

18 regen sitting at 60 is nothing.

Whatever you say, bud.

[williestargell]

AoN is not 100% fashion quest...only 99%

[Teppler]

You're arguing that necromancers don't even need extra regen to counteract lich because they don't really need mana because there's a drop from Veeshan's Peak with a 13.5 second cast time that slowly restores hp for no mana and clickable nuke rings that drop from the boss of a zone that hasn't been released yet?

The fact that you're comparing racial regen on an necromancer running demi lich to a torpor shaman and calling it marginal tells us that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Play necromancers running demi lich both with and without iksar regen and then come back and tell us what you've learned.

Allow me to challenge you to tell me what you can do with your iksar necro that you can't do with another necro. What camp opens up to iksars?

The talk about VP gear is just referring to how useful racial regen is when a necro is maxed out.

Demi lich and torpor shaman have a lot of similarities in the sense they both have among the fastest mana regen in the game and efficient and quick ways to heal themselves making slow hp regen, marginal.

Plz refrain from insults, try to stick to debate.

[Daldaen]

What can an Iksar Necro do that a gnome Necro cannot.

An Iksar Necro with 10th Ring and Z-Heart can AFK with Demi Lich on, and sit down, and not die. A non-Iksar would die under the same circumstances.

An Iksar Necro can receive 0 buffs at a raid or arrive late, never have to engage mobs and get on aggro list, and twitch without losing any HP at all by using the above two items.

A maxed out Necromancer still requires targets either via Holgresh Beads/Stalking Probes (meaning you can't have a pet) or a mob which isn't magic immune that they may cast upon to click their staff or ring. In down times between pulls or raid attempts, when twitch efficiency is key to getting clerics ready to go again, an Iksar will be able to twitch without wasting someone's mana on heals or a slot in a bard group.

Demi Lich isn't similar to Torpor shaman. Demi Lich is a constant ticking down. Canni is cast, and selected when it's cast. You can click off, remem, and recast Demi but that's tedious and inefficient. Regeneration benefits Necromancers the most of any class because they should always be operating under Lich and therefore always losing HP. This makes slow HP regen ANYTHING BUT marginal. Thats the most important stat you could have. It determines how frequently you need to waste mana healing yourself.

The means by which a Necromancer heals themself are either lifetaps or leach DoTs. Unfortunately both are inefficient means of DPS. Necro DoTs range from 6.7-4 DMG/Mana (looking at Splurt, Pyro, Cessation, Plague), whereas the leach DoTs are barely over 2.2 DMG/Mana. Basically they are half as efficient as the other DoTs. Meaning you only want to drop your damage efficiency, when you need heals. Iksars need to heal less and therefore are able to utilize more efficient means of damage. Whether that's more charms, more DoTs, more mobs being root rotted, etc.

This efficiency allows a Necromancer that is an Iksar to likely clear a whole other room in HS that a non-Iksar couldn't have because they were spending too much of their mana healing themselves back up.

[Teppler]

What can an Iksar Necro do that a gnome Necro cannot.

An Iksar Necro with 10th Ring and Z-Heart can AFK with Demi Lich on, and sit down, and not die. A non-Iksar would die under the same circumstances.

An Iksar Necro can receive 0 buffs at a raid or arrive late, never have to engage mobs and get on aggro list, and twitch without losing any HP at all by using the above two items.

I didn't ask that. I asked what camp opens up to an Iksar Necro that you can't do with another necro. If you're going to talk about 10th ring and Z-heart, what use do you have for extra regen when there's items that allow you to life tap for free?

A maxed out Necromancer still requires targets either via Holgresh Beads/Stalking Probes (meaning you can't have a pet) or a mob which isn't magic immune that they may cast upon to click their staff or ring. In down times between pulls or raid attempts, when twitch efficiency is key to getting clerics ready to go again, an Iksar will be able to twitch without wasting someone's mana on heals or a slot in a bard group.

On raids with long encounters it's a small advantage, sure. However when soloing and grouping high end content there's always mobs to lifetap and the dps coming from it helps. There's good use to Necro's lifetaps too in the sense that they are very hard to resist and something like deflux is a very quick cast so you can spam it to nuke down mobs quick.


Demi Lich isn't similar to Torpor shaman. Demi Lich is a constant ticking down. Canni is cast, and selected when it's cast. You can click off, remem, and recast Demi but that's tedious and inefficient. Regeneration benefits Necromancers the most of any class because they should always be operating under Lich and therefore always losing HP. This makes slow HP regen ANYTHING BUT marginal. Thats the most important stat you could have. It determines how frequently you need to waste mana healing yourself.

There's a few similarities and there's a few differences. To say it's plainly the same is as wrong as saying they are plainly different. Demi lich doesn't have to constantly tick down as much as you can regulate Canni by not spamming it. I'd argue the mana you refer to as "wasting" is a marginal number when you factor in the usefulness of doing damage with your lifetaps. A good necro knows how to make the most of his lifetaps.


The means by which a Necromancer heals themself are either lifetaps or leach DoTs. Unfortunately both are inefficient means of DPS. Necro DoTs range from 6.7-4 DMG/Mana (looking at Splurt, Pyro, Cessation, Plague), whereas the leach DoTs are barely over 2.2 DMG/Mana. Basically they are half as efficient as the other DoTs. Meaning you only want to drop your damage efficiency, when you need heals. Iksars need to heal less and therefore are able to utilize more efficient means of damage. Whether that's more charms, more DoTs, more mobs being root rotted, etc.

Do you factor in how great they are at not getting resisted? How fast and thus convenient something like Deflux is?

In a lot of situations high end necros won't need to use long DOTs. Think groups or finishing off charmed mobs.


This efficiency allows a Necromancer that is an Iksar to likely clear a whole other room in HS that a non-Iksar couldn't have because they were spending too much of their mana healing themselves back up.

If the necro is solo, what is the Iksar finishing charmed mobs off with? Good necro's are getting mobs to the point where deflux is going to take them down. If you're clearing all the rooms in HS north, you're killing 20+ mobs within a 15 minuteish time frame. Around 20 deflux in that time frame will keep you healed.

[Daldaen]

The use in regen items is that you don't have to waste time in clicking heal items and you don't need targets to click heal items, increasing twitch efficiency or damage efficiency. I'm fairly sure the soul well staff blocks Splurt (our most efficient DoT) also.

The DPS from life drains help but they aren't efficient. Their resistance is a factor but most any mob a Necro will be soloing, will not be resistant enough to warrant sacrificing half the efficiency for the more reliable spell landing.

It does have to constantly tick down. That's how the spell works. If it doesn't you're clicking it off, losing mana regen, and wasting time rememing and recasting the spell. Again, inefficient and tedious.

See above about resistances, almost never solo are there resistant mobs that make the efficiency of a life drain greater than a resistable DoT. In high end group locations, like Velious or Juggs in Sebilis, mobs generally live long enough for 1-2min DoTs unless you have charmed pets. It would depend on the group makeup I think.

Good point on solo Necro charming. A better example would've been fear kiting or root rotting where you are using DoTs exclusively.

[webrunner5]

What can an Iksar Necro do that a gnome Necro cannot.

An Iksar Necro with 10th Ring and Z-Heart can AFK with Demi Lich on, and sit down, and not die. A non-Iksar would die under the same circumstances.

An Iksar Necro can receive 0 buffs at a raid or arrive late, never have to engage mobs and get on aggro list, and twitch without losing any HP at all by using the above two items.

A maxed out Necromancer still requires targets either via Holgresh Beads/Stalking Probes (meaning you can't have a pet) or a mob which isn't magic immune that they may cast upon to click their staff or ring. In down times between pulls or raid attempts, when twitch efficiency is key to getting clerics ready to go again, an Iksar will be able to twitch without wasting someone's mana on heals or a slot in a bard group.

Demi Lich isn't similar to Torpor shaman. Demi Lich is a constant ticking down. Canni is cast, and selected when it's cast. You can click off, remem, and recast Demi but that's tedious and inefficient. Regeneration benefits Necromancers the most of any class because they should always be operating under Lich and therefore always losing HP. This makes slow HP regen ANYTHING BUT marginal. Thats the most important stat you could have. It determines how frequently you need to waste mana healing yourself.

The means by which a Necromancer heals themself are either lifetaps or leach DoTs. Unfortunately both are inefficient means of DPS. Necro DoTs range from 6.7-4 DMG/Mana (looking at Splurt, Pyro, Cessation, Plague), whereas the leach DoTs are barely over 2.2 DMG/Mana. Basically they are half as efficient as the other DoTs. Meaning you only want to drop your damage efficiency, when you need heals. Iksars need to heal less and therefore are able to utilize more efficient means of damage. Whether that's more charms, more DoTs, more mobs being root rotted, etc.

This efficiency allows a Necromancer that is an Iksar to likely clear a whole other room in HS that a non-Iksar couldn't have because they were spending too much of their mana healing themselves back up.

Pretty hard to argue with that post. :p Next subject. :D

[Synthlol]

Plz refrain from insults, try to stick to debate.

I never insulted you. I informed you that you lack understanding. Don't be so defensive.

I didn't ask that. I asked what camp opens up to an Iksar Necro that you can't do with another necro.

This type of binary thinking is why you don't get it, and suggests that you didn't roll an iksar and are attempting to rationalize your sub-optimal choice. You're pretending like the only way regen would matter is if it enabled you to camp some item that would be impossible without it, and ignoring the fact that it makes everything you do safer, faster, and easier. Don't try and say that things are already safe, fast, and easy, either. I used relative terms which don't depend on whether or not you're content without bonus regen.

There's nothing wrong with not picking the best race. There's no shame in picking aesthetics over stats if you just own it, but trying to convince yourself that regen doesn't matter by pretending its advantages are trivial in order to make yourself feel better about it is embarrassing.

[mrshzzit]

I never insulted you. I informed you that you lack understanding. Don't be so defensive.



This type of binary thinking is why you don't get it, and suggests that you didn't roll an iksar and are attempting to rationalize your sub-optimal choice. You're pretending like the only way regen would matter is if it enabled you to camp some item that would be impossible without it, and ignoring the fact that it makes everything you do safer, faster, and easier. Don't try and say that things are already safe, fast, and easy, either. I used relative terms which don't depend on whether or not you're content without bonus regen.

There's nothing wrong with not picking the best race. There's no shame in picking aesthetics over stats if you just own it, but trying to convince yourself that regen doesn't matter by pretending its advantages are trivial in order to make yourself feel better about it is embarrassing.

Lol calm down, you rage in every post. Im a 60 iksar necro and that regen means jack when u can cast 1 spell and heal for 1150 hp while doing go0d dmg.

[pharmakos]

i don't understand how this debate has gone on for 13 pages. iksar is obviously better in a min/max sense. whether or not that matters to you is up to you, but to say that iksar regen doesn't matter in a numbers sense is just insanity.

[ddxdy]

This thread is either full of trolls, or full of people who have not played both an iksar and a non-iksar 50+.

[Synthlol]

Lol calm down, you rage in every post. Im a 60 iksar necro and that regen means jack when u can cast 1 spell and heal for 1150 hp while doing go0d dmg.

You have a very poor understanding of emotions.

[Teppler]

i don't understand how this debate has gone on for 13 pages. iksar is obviously better in a min/max sense. whether or not that matters to you is up to you, but to say that iksar regen doesn't matter in a numbers sense is just insanity.

It matters but the question is if it matters a lot or it matters a little.

You have a very poor understanding of emotions.

He's right. You have a poor habit of being condescending. It's not conducive to a good discussion.

This type of binary thinking is why you don't get it, and suggests that you didn't roll an iksar and are attempting to rationalize your sub-optimal choice. You're pretending like the only way regen would matter is if it enabled you to camp some item that would be impossible without it, and ignoring the fact that it makes everything you do safer, faster, and easier. Don't try and say that things are already safe, fast, and easy, either. I used relative terms which don't depend on whether or not you're content without bonus regen.

There's nothing wrong with not picking the best race. There's no shame in picking aesthetics over stats if you just own it, but trying to convince yourself that regen doesn't matter by pretending its advantages are trivial in order to make yourself feel better about it is embarrassing.

Looking at things in an abstract sense is great and all but there comes a certain point where you have to be able to apply your theoretics to real situations.

A perfectly good question is to ask what an Iksar necro can do vs another necro. I challenge that you are not digging deep enough to understand.

I challenge that it does not necessarily make things faster, safer and easier in every situation and in most cases that it does, it is extremely marginal.

The use in regen items is that you don't have to waste time in clicking heal items and you don't need targets to click heal items, increasing twitch efficiency or damage efficiency. I'm fairly sure the soul well staff blocks Splurt (our most efficient DoT) also.

How often are you playing necro where you don't have any spare time anywhere?


The DPS from life drains help but they aren't efficient. Their resistance is a factor but most any mob a Necro will be soloing, will not be resistant enough to warrant sacrificing half the efficiency for the more reliable spell landing.

If you're soloing mobs around level 50, resists are a factor. I'd say if you're doing a camp where racial hp is a factor, mob resists are also likely to be a factor. Deflux is also really fast too which is a cool situational tool. I've had many group situations where I've had too much mana and nuking things down with Deflux was useful.

It does have to constantly tick down. That's how the spell works. If it doesn't you're clicking it off, losing mana regen, and wasting time rememing and recasting the spell. Again, inefficient and tedious.

It's extra work to do but I don't believe it to hinder anything realistically.

I'd like to see the necro play who doesn't have 2 seconds to play around with putting demi lich on and off. If he's that busy with his necro, I'd like to see what he's doing.

See above about resistances, almost never solo are there resistant mobs that make the efficiency of a life drain greater than a resistable DoT. In high end group locations, like Velious or Juggs in Sebilis, mobs generally live long enough for 1-2min DoTs unless you have charmed pets. It would depend on the group makeup I think.

IMO if you're not playing around with undeads, you might as well play another class. Without something to charm you are half the class you could be with the monster pet dps.

In your example with velious or juggs in seb it should be noted that this only matters if you're not talking about a maxed out necro which has access to lifetap clickies. Even without lifetap clickies, a non iksar necro only has to tap once every couple fights. I don't believe that to be game changing. The reason I bring up clickies is because a lot of people are discussing this from a min-max perspective. So if we are talking about a maxed out necro we have to include free lifetaps.

Good point on solo Necro charming. A better example would've been fear kiting or root rotting where you are using DoTs exclusively.

I'd argue what useful camps are out there for a necro to fear kite or root rot that will challenge your necro.

[Uteunayr]

The use in regen items is that you don't have to waste time in clicking heal items and you don't need targets to click heal items, increasing twitch efficiency or damage efficiency. I'm fairly sure the soul well staff blocks Splurt (our most efficient DoT) also.

EDIT: Soul Well stacks with Splurt. Vexing Mordinia overrides Soul Well. Soul Well does not override Vexing Mordinia. I'm not sure, but there appears to be evidence here that the healing effect of Soul Well isn't overridden by Vexing Mordinia, only the damage component. You'll see when I cast Vexing Mordinia that it overrides the Soul Well, making it drop off... And then many seconds later, out of nowhere, "The bond fades.", which is the message one gets side by side with "Your Soul Well spell has worn off." to say the bond has ended. This may be because Vexing Mordinia gives you a buff "Vexing Mordinia Recourse", while Soul Well doesn't give you a buff for the healing.

[Fri Jul 24 16:16:10 2015] You begin casting Paralyzing Earth.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:13 2015] Guard Quallith's feet adhere to the ground.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:13 2015] Targeted (NPC): Guard Yandellen
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:15 2015] You begin casting Paralyzing Earth.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:18 2015] Guard Yandellen's feet adhere to the ground.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:18 2015] Targeted (NPC): Guard Quallith
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:18 2015] You begin casting Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:18 2015] Your Shissar Seance Staff begins to glow.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:32 2015] Guard Quallith staggers.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:34 2015] You begin casting Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:36 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 11 damage from your Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:38 2015] Guard Quallith's body begins to splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:42 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 23 damage from your Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:42 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 11 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:48 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 35 damage from your Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:48 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 23 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:54 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 47 damage from your Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:16:54 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 35 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:00 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 59 damage from your Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:00 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 47 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:06 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 71 damage from your Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:06 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 59 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:12 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 83 damage from your Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:12 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 71 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:17 2015] You begin casting Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:18 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 95 damage from your Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:18 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 83 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:22 2015] Vexing Mordinia strengthens your life force.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:22 2015] Your Soul Well spell has worn off.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:22 2015] Guard Quallith staggers under the curse of Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:24 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 111 damage from your Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:24 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 95 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:30 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 111 damage from your Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:30 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 107 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:33 2015] The bond fades.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:35 2015] You begin casting Soul Well.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:35 2015] Your Shissar Seance Staff begins to glow.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:36 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 111 damage from your Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:36 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 119 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:42 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 111 damage from your Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:42 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 131 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:48 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 111 damage from your Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:48 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 143 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:48 2015] Your spell did not take hold.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:54 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 111 damage from your Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:17:54 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 155 damage from your Splurt.
[Fri Jul 24 16:18:00 2015] Guard Quallith has taken 111 damage from your Vexing Mordinia.
[Fri Jul 24 16:18:00 2015] You have slain Guard Quallith!
[Fri Jul 24 16:18:00 2015] Your faction standing with CoalitionofTradeFolkIll could not possibly get any worse.
[Fri Jul 24 16:18:00 2015] Your faction standing with FreeportMilitia could not possibly get any worse.
[Fri Jul 24 16:18:00 2015] Your faction standing with KnightsofTruth could not possibly get any better.
[Fri Jul 24 16:18:00 2015] Your faction standing with PriestsofMarr could not possibly get any better.
[Fri Jul 24 16:18:02 2015] You begin casting Feign Death.
[Fri Jul 24 16:18:21 2015] The Mordinia fades.

[Daldaen]

It's not about not having spare time. It's about wasting time doing something and losing a med tick here and there, just because your race regens less, and therefore by definition is less efficient.

I agree that charming is fantastic but suggesting you should play a different class if you aren't playing undead is dumb, let's be honest here. If that were the case there would be 0 Necros in Velious since Undead populate I believe 2 zones. ToFS and DN (and only bone dragon traps). Either way the # of Undead there is extremely minuscule and Necros are still useful.

Soloing summoners as a Necro is pretty inefficient, so you're generally restricted to soloing pre-51 mobs. Unless you can charm, again only works in Kunark at high-end.

At 60 with Demi Lich, let's say you have 1500 HP. A gnome dies in 6 minutes, and Iksar dies in 10.6minutes. If you want to stay above half health, the gnome must lifetap every 3 minutes, Iksars only have to every 5 minutes. This adds up as the gnome is having to take more time standing to cast life drains or click lifetap clickies, and loses out on more med ticks. Over the course of 10 minutes that Iksar casts just 2 life drains and the non-Iksar casts 3. That's 500 mana back you can spend on other things. Like a root and 2 splurts on another extra mob for example.

You won't find that an Iksar Necromancer can kill mob X and a non Iksar can't. That's not what this is about. You will find an Iksar Necro can root rot more without having to devote as much mana to healing himself, therefore being able to put it towards more damage.

Anywho, we are all just skeletons in the end-game, why not be the one which dies less fast?

[Uteunayr]

It's not about not having spare time. It's about wasting time doing something and losing a med tick here and there, just because your race regens less, and therefore by definition is less efficient.

I agree that charming is fantastic but suggesting you should play a different class if you aren't playing undead is dumb, let's be honest here. If that were the case there would be 0 Necros in Velious since Undead populate I believe 2 zones. ToFS and DN (and only bone dragon traps). Either way the # of Undead there is extremely minuscule and Necros are still useful.

Soloing summoners as a Necro is pretty inefficient, so you're generally restricted to soloing pre-51 mobs. Unless you can charm, again only works in Kunark at high-end.

At 60 with Demi Lich, let's say you have 1500 HP. A gnome dies in 6 minutes, and Iksar dies in 10.6minutes. If you want to stay above half health, the gnome must lifetap every 3 minutes, Iksars only have to every 5 minutes. This adds up as the gnome is having to take more time standing to cast life drains or click lifetap clickies, and loses out on more med ticks. Over the course of 10 minutes that Iksar casts just 2 life drains and the non-Iksar casts 3. That's 500 mana back you can spend on other things. Like a root and 2 splurts on another extra mob for example.

You won't find that an Iksar Necromancer can kill mob X and a non Iksar can't. That's not what this is about. You will find an Iksar Necro can root rot more without having to devote as much mana to healing himself, therefore being able to put it towards more damage.

Anywho, we are all just skeletons in the end-game, why not be the one which dies less fast?

This is a good post.

[Synthlol]

He's right. You have a poor habit of being condescending.


Of course I'm talking down to you. That's the nature of conversations with someone who is beneath you. Insisting that it comes from a place of anger to discredit it is for trolls, and that doesn't belong here.

It's not conducive to a good discussion.

I tend to avoid attempting to confront irrational viewpoints with logic. If you don't find the value of bonus regen on a necromancer to be self-evident, then it's unlikely you'll let yourself be convinced by someone else. This is because you'd need an ulterior motive to decide that passively offsetting lich hp drain is trivial. I'm willing to bet that yours is a need to rationalize your racial choice.


Looking at things in an abstract sense is great and all but there comes a certain point where you have to be able to apply your theoretics to real situations.


You'll refuse to accept the value of any example I give you and come up with reasons why you wouldn't need to do things in a way that takes advantage of the racial regen, refusing to admit that it's nice to. That being said, two that comes to mind instantly are soloing the Soothsayer in Droga and soloing in the plane of fear. The following examples are far from exhaustive.

With racial regen you can ignore all the trash mobs in the Soothsayer's room, kill the ph, and just hit FD with lich and a timer running. Your hp will decrease so slowly that you can leave your keyboard for over 15 minutes and come back and you will be at full mana and still be alive. You can accomplish tasks in real life during this time, never having to worry about Gather Shadows dropping like you would while sitting. A non iksar wouldn't last half as long. This simple and safe method of camping rare spawns can be applied to camps all across Norrath.

Soloing boogeymen and gorgons in the plane of fear is one of the most challenging things I do on my necromancer. Without the space to fear kite, you must rely on root to CC these deadly mobs. It's almost unavoidable that you'll take hits here and there given there is hardly any safe space to work with, and you're also on a time limit with every mob due to the glare lord that does laps around the zone wall. It's essential to take each mob down as fast as possible, as well as keep your HP full. Hardly any roots last a full duration, and ghoul root procs & bashes will often force you to reset the fight if they don't kill you outright. The lower your hp is when root breaks, the more likely you'll die. Single pulling these mobs is dangerous and can be complicated, and it isn't nice to have to redo a successful split. They also have quite large HP totals, and I usually finish a clean kill at or below 20% mana. The more time and mana you waste casting lifetaps because you need to keep your hp full, the less likely you are to complete a kill. Iksar regen increases the success rate in such an endeavor.

In addition, I have access to a 60 gnome necromancer given to me by a friend who no longer plays. This necromancer was level 50 before Kunark was released, and I have great respect for his owner as well as other gnome necromancers who were around before Kunark, like my raid leader. Every time I play him I'm caught off guard by how rapid his hp decreases with demi-lich or even regular lich up. Non-iksars spend far more time with their hp values at more vulnerable levels than iksars. I find myself spending much more mana to clear camps because I have to resort to lifetaps to keep my hp at a safe level, and this leads to slower progress. Clearing HS North with the gnome, for example, I find myself throwing out lifetaps and lifedrains that are necessary only to keep my hp up, not to finish off a mob or balance their hp levels. I've had to stop clearing out rooms in which nameds spawns in order to deal with respawns because my progress was slower because of the mana I was forced to spend on healing.


A perfectly good question is to ask what an Iksar necro can do vs another necro. I challenge that you are not digging deep enough to understand.


I can do anything without a heiro cloak that I can do with a heiro cloak.


I'd like to see the necro play who doesn't have 2 seconds to play around with putting demi lich on and off. If he's that busy with his necro, I'd like to see what he's doing.

It's not that he can't, it's that he doesn't want to. This an idea you repeatedly fail to grasp.

[Deckk]

I don't understand why the idea of playing a race you're comfortable with is such a shocker to some. You like the extra regen? Then play the ikky. You don't care? Play anything else. It's not all that complicated.

[Teppler]

Of course I'm talking down to you. That's the nature of conversations with someone who is beneath you. Insisting that it comes from a place of anger to discredit it is for trolls, and that doesn't belong here.

K. Ignored, fool.

It's not about not having spare time. It's about wasting time doing something and losing a med tick here and there, just because your race regens less, and therefore by definition is less efficient.

Wasting time is one thing but a good question is if the waste of time effects what you're doing.


I agree that charming is fantastic but suggesting you should play a different class if you aren't playing undead is dumb, let's be honest here. If that were the case there would be 0 Necros in Velious since Undead populate I believe 2 zones. ToFS and DN (and only bone dragon traps). Either way the # of Undead there is extremely minuscule and Necros are still useful.

Soloing summoners as a Necro is pretty inefficient, so you're generally restricted to soloing pre-51 mobs. Unless you can charm, again only works in Kunark at high-end.


We'll see what happens when Velious drops. In terms of relative class strength, necro takes a drop in Velious since there's less undead mobs to take advantage of. I'd wager necro's will start shifting to other classes and the ones that stick around will still find their most use in kunark undead heavy zones still.


At 60 with Demi Lich, let's say you have 1500 HP. A gnome dies in 6 minutes, and Iksar dies in 10.6minutes. If you want to stay above half health, the gnome must lifetap every 3 minutes, Iksars only have to every 5 minutes. This adds up as the gnome is having to take more time standing to cast life drains or click lifetap clickies, and loses out on more med ticks. Over the course of 10 minutes that Iksar casts just 2 life drains and the non-Iksar casts 3. That's 500 mana back you can spend on other things. Like a root and 2 splurts on another extra mob for example.

This is if you're not grouping with a Shaman or Druid. Even a Ranger(chloro) and Cleric(massive hp buffs) will effect this.

An argument of having to waste time on lifetap clickies is part of what I mean when I make an argument that hp regen is marginal. You add some damage from the lifetap and miss out on 2 ticks of seated med. What is that, 50-60 mana?


You won't find that an Iksar Necromancer can kill mob X and a non Iksar can't. That's not what this is about. You will find an Iksar Necro can root rot more without having to devote as much mana to healing himself, therefore being able to put it towards more damage.


What are you root rotting that is challenging?

Anywho, we are all just skeletons in the end-game, why not be the one which dies less fast?

Cause, we want to know much it really matters, not just that it matters.

[Synthlol]

K. Ignored, fool.

If I were a chump, I would probably ignore someone who was schooling me, too.

[Raev]

I don't find those examples very convincing. AFK farming Droga is boring as hell; at least the spore king gives you 3 minutes of mild excitement every half hour. Grinding your way to the Boogeymen solo over 4 hours seems like a waste of time compared to AEing with a guild in 15 minutes. HS North is a bunch of L45 mobs that drop junk.

What I find more interesting is being part of part of a small crew against legit targets, say Lower Sebilis or WW dragons or Kael giants. And I just don't see how Iksar regen is gamebreaking there. The Iksar Advantage comes from skipping lifetaps in favor of more efficient spells. But against legit targets, lifetaps *are* the efficient spells because their -200 mod means they land every time.

So the only real argument I see here is that Iksar necros are better twitchbots because they can AFK with Demi-Lich on. Why not just group with a shaman and get a torpor every 10 minutes? It's not exactly the end of the world.

Anyway, Iksar is the obvious min/max choice and anyone who says otherwise should be slapped with a seabass. But I'll still take Necrious over most Iksar necros, or Hokushin over most Iksar monks, or Sentenza over most Ogre SKs, or Cucumbers over most Ogre Warriors, and so on and so forth.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

If I were a chump, I would probably ignore someone who was schooling me, too.

Toxic. Citizen, please contain yourself.

[Beinen]

Lol calm down, you rage in every post. Im a 60 iksar necro and that regen means jack when u can cast 1 spell and heal for 1150 hp while doing go0d dmg.

As a new necromancer, when is this not applicable? This may answer the question and end the discussion.

-21 DE Necro Humyan Oiych

[Itap]

Guys, guys, you have some of the best Necros on p99 giving you straight up facts and telling you that iksar is clearly the best race to choose for Necros. What is there to debate?

From a FashionQuest standpoint, dark elf all the way

[pharmakos]

You won't find that an Iksar Necromancer can kill mob X and a non Iksar can't. That's not what this is about. You will find an Iksar Necro can root rot more without having to devote as much mana to healing himself, therefore being able to put it towards more damage.

so an iksar necro is going to be able to hold down the entire Holgresh Elder camp more easily than a non-iksar

[Teppler]

Guys, guys, you have some of the best Necros on p99 giving you straight up facts and telling you that iksar is clearly the best race to choose for Necros. What is there to debate?

From a FashionQuest standpoint, dark elf all the way

I'm the best necro on this server :D

[absol]

Why is this still a debate? Nobody is going to 'win' EQ with a race selection. And even if that was possible, we're talking about the Necro. Out of all the classes, the Necro is the one most likely not to give a hoot what others think.

I'm pretty sure I know whats happening here. You guys aren't Necros at all, and if I catch any more of you in Nektulos, I'm putting your head in a box and sending it back to Reebo.

[Faywind]

This debate has been done many times in the past. Iksar is the min/max choice however you look at it. If you want to play another race that is perfectly fine and you have every right to do so.

My only issue with this debate is those that say the iksar regen is "marginal". It's not, it's extremely useful (especially at 50+ when you really notice it). I just don't want new potential Necromancers seeing these posts and deciding not to go Iksar, level up to 50 and then realise they made a mistake and would prefer to have that extra regen.

It's about spreading misinformation that is the real problem and those that are too stubborn to just accept that regen is the most important trait for a Necro and does make a difference. Iksar Necros just have it easier at 60, that's pretty much it.

I don't believe there is any other class that is affected so much by choosing or not choosing a certain race. I had a Dark Elf Necro but luckily didn't get too high lvl before re-rolling Iksar. I am extremely happy I did that and am now in the 50+ range and loving every minute of it :)

For those who haven't done so yet, Sesserdrix has some compelling arguments as to why Iksar is the best choice and should not be discounted as a small advantage. He has done 1-60 on a non-iksar and iksar so he can really chime in on how much better it is as an Iksar Necro.

Anyways I just don't want people to regret their decision when playing the Necro.

[Teppler]

This debate has been done many times in the past. Iksar is the min/max choice however you look at it. If you want to play another race that is perfectly fine and you have every right to do so.

My only issue with this debate is those that say the iksar regen is "marginal". It's not, it's extremely useful (especially at 50+ when you really notice it). I just don't want new potential Necromancers seeing these posts and deciding not to go Iksar, level up to 50 and then realise they made a mistake and would prefer to have that extra regen.

It's about spreading misinformation that is the real problem and those that are too stubborn to just accept that regen is the most important trait for a Necro and does make a difference. Iksar Necros just have it easier at 60, that's pretty much it.

I don't believe there is any other class that is affected so much by choosing or not choosing a certain race. I had a Dark Elf Necro but luckily didn't get too high lvl before re-rolling Iksar. I am extremely happy I did that and am now in the 50+ range and loving every minute of it :)

For those who haven't done so yet, Sesserdrix has some compelling arguments as to why Iksar is the best choice and should not be discounted as a small advantage. He has done 1-60 on a non-iksar and iksar so he can really chime in on how much better it is as an Iksar Necro.

Anyways I just don't want people to regret their decision when playing the Necro.

If you're so concerned about new Necros making the right decision then just put your arguement out there, make a good case and then let them decide on their own.

Accusing someone of spreading disinformation when you're not retorting an argument or making one youself is lame and doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion.

[Faywind]

If you're so concerned about new Necros making the right decision then just put your arguement out there, make a good case and then let them decide on their own.

Accusing someone of spreading disinformation when you're not retorting an argument or making one youself is lame and doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion.

This thread has portrayed all the arguments for it. No need to regurgitate the same thing.

I'm not sure why people get so heated over this topic. You attack everyone that differs from your opinion...let's keep it civil please, I'm just here to have a conversation lol :D

[Teppler]

This thread has portrayed all the arguments for it. No need to regurgitate the same thing.

I'm not sure why people get so heated over this topic. You attack everyone that differs from your opinion...let's keep it civil please, I'm just here to have a conversation lol :D

The only people I've attacked in this thread are the guy who said I'm beneath him and you after you said I'm spreading misinformation and I'm just stubborn. I enjoy having civil discussions on the matter. If you don't want a return of personal attacks, don't make them yourself.

There's a LOT more investigation and debate that can be done on the matter.

[Beinen]

So is it too late to reroll iksar at 22? I'm currently in the middle of trying to grind money for a CoS before its too late.

[Faywind]

The only people I've attacked in this thread are the guy who said I'm beneath him and you after you said I'm spreading misinformation and I'm just stubborn. I enjoy having civil discussions on the matter. If you don't want a return of personal attacks, don't make them yourself.

There's a LOT more investigation and debate that can be done on the matter.

Hmmm....interesting. I don't recall attacking you personally. Had to read my post again and I don't see where I quoted you or used your name. :confused:

Either way, Necro is a fun and super powerful class which ever race you decide.

Anyways, I said what I needed to say. Back to the grind! See you all in game :D

[Teppler]

Hmmm....interesting. I don't recall attacking you personally. Had to read my post again and I don't see where I quoted you or used your name. :confused:

Either way, Necro is a fun and super powerful class which ever race you decide.

Anyways, I said what I needed to say. Back to the grind! See you all in game :D

You didn't call me by name but you referred to the person who said regen is marginal which are words I used. It triggered me. :D

[Raev]

So is it too late to reroll iksar at 22? I'm currently in the middle of trying to grind money for a CoS before its too late.

If you play decently often I'd probably reroll. In my experience you can hit L20 in ~40 hours /played. And Iksar simply is the best, no questions asked.

Also I can't imagine the Circlet of Shadows will ever be too super expensive. Probably thousands have been farmed by now, and the nerf still doesn't occur for quite a while into Velious. Maybe in 2 years it might be 10k rather than 4k or something. And by then Nilbog and Rogean probably will have launched another server anyway.

[Beinen]

If you play decently often I'd probably reroll. In my experience you can hit L20 in ~40 hours /played. And Iksar simply is the best, no questions asked.

Also I can't imagine the Circlet of Shadows will ever be too super expensive. Probably thousands have been farmed by now, and the nerf still doesn't occur for quite a while into Velious. Maybe in 2 years it might be 10k rather than 4k or something. And by then Nilbog and Rogean probably will have launched another server anyway.

Amen!

I just rerolled. I feel better now.

[Synthlol]

I don't find those examples very convincing. AFK farming Droga is boring as hell; at least the spore king gives you 3 minutes of mild excitement every half hour. Grinding your way to the Boogeymen solo over 4 hours seems like a waste of time compared to AEing with a guild in 15 minutes. HS North is a bunch of L45 mobs that drop junk.

They may not be things that you care about doing, but they are still valid examples of when iksar regen provides a distinct advantage. Your desires aren't representative of every player on the server.

You can't solo King camp. AEing fear takes a guild, and not every necromancer has access to one that can AE clear it. You don't grind your way across the zone, you camp out in the safe spot beforehand. HS North may be junk to you, but to a new player deciding which race to choose, the gear may be something they would really like to attain. It's also a great spot to XP.

Anyone can come up with reason why they wouldn't want to do something. A better person is able to see why someone other than themselves would want to.

[Raev]

Anyone can come up with reason why they wouldn't want to do something. A better person is able to see why someone other than themselves would want to.

Yet strangely, you don't apply this logic to people who roll gnome necromancers.

[Itap]

Yet strangely, you don't apply this logic to people who roll gnome necromancers.

or a gnome chanter...where is that gnome chanter btw loraen

[Raev]

I still play him! I'm planning to make some noise with Loraen in quite a few Velious zones, just not ToV. At least not until they make the hatchlings charmable (CLASSIC).

I just have too many toons at this point :p

[Itap]

I see, I miss those solo artist challenge days, so entertaining while I was at work

[ctre]

Pretty hard to argue with that post. :p Next subject. :D


Well I can argue against that.

If you are charm killing mobs, any race will have a fairly similar in speed when clearing in HSfor example, (unded mobs), (player skill will factor more in this).
The only time an Iksar will have an advantage in HS is there AC.
(this ability to take an extra hit is significant in my opinion).

Any zone where you use a pet or root rot.. the iksar regen will have an advantage.

All calls about sitting down/dancing/farting..etc doing more damage.. etc is rubbish.. you can only do the same amount of damage, (all necro's get the same dots.. unlike implied).

As each encounter type is different, each value of mana and health is different.

However at the end of the day, if you are 60 and an iksar. You will have a safer, more forgiving necro to play that will make more mana at the end of the day.

[pharmakos]

iksars get HP back quicker if they get beat on during charm breaks. that matters a lot.

[ctre]

iksars get HP back quicker if they get beat on during charm breaks. that matters a lot.

Since when do you get beat on in HS when charming? (Very rare).
Getting beat on is saying that you do not know how to position yourself and your pet to play the zone well.
Learn to play better, then you will not waste mana.

[pharmakos]

you're right. still, helps with that learning curve, at the very least. and even if you get to the point where it is "very rare" it helps in those "very rare" circumstances.

[ctre]

you're right. still, helps with that learning curve, at the very least. and even if you get to the point where it is "very rare" it helps in those "very rare" circumstances.


Yes you are right for this. When the gods look away and say it is your turn to get your butt kicked necro, and they casually toss you a hand-full of fizzles with a bad FD and 1 mili-second pet break's. That extra AC will contribute to save your life. ( and that is your very rare, the odd time you wish you were an iksar ).
I do remember lying Fd with 10 hp's left, (wanting my hp bar to go up faster).

But it is made up for, (in hs) when you Gnome pre-inspect the picture wall, and duck look out to target your foes.. send pet in wait. plop down.. root and charm a new one when pet dies.

[Tenlaar]

The only time an Iksar will have an advantage in HS is there AC.

Except that the iksar will still have an advantage in that he loses less HP for the same mana regen. That advantage never goes away, no matter what the situation, ever ever never ever.

Why are there people acting as if losing less HP for the same mana regen as another race is a situational advantage? That is crazy talk. It is always an advantage.

All calls about sitting down/dancing/farting..etc doing more damage.. etc is rubbish.. you can only do the same amount of damage, (all necro's get the same dots.. unlike implied).

if you are 60 and an iksar. You will have a safer, more forgiving necro to play that will make more mana at the end of the day.

These statements are contradictory. If an iksar necro will make more mana at the end of the day then the iksar necro can cast more damage spells at the end of the day.

[Teppler]

Why are there people acting as if losing less HP for the same mana regen as another race is a situational advantage? That is crazy talk. It is always an advantage.

Is it an advantage when you're waiting around for a while and your fight lasts less than a few minutes? There's an example right there where it's not always a practical advantage.

[Tenlaar]

Is it an advantage when you're waiting around for a while and your fight lasts less than a few minutes? There's an example right there where it's not always a practical advantage.

Yes. The time when it is not an advantage is when you are not doing anything. Good call.

[Teppler]

Yes. The time when it is not an advantage is when you are not doing anything. Good call.

A lot of everquest is waiting around. You might be waiting for something to spawn. You might be setting up to kill 1 tough mob. Is this not making use of your Necro?

[Daldaen]

Was messing around in HS the other day, jumped through a door that I thought had 2 undead on the other side with IvU, had a skeleton and goo, skeleton harm touched me and they both started hitting me before I got an FD off at 15%. Because Iksar I was able to regen enough HP up to where I could stand and root/mez them and kill them quicker than a non-Iksar would've done.

Was really nice having the 12 FD Regen vs the 4 other races have. Yea, I could've not blindly jumped through the door but there are times as a Necro where you will get an FD off and need to wait on your regen before you can do anything. In those times regening 3x faster is very handy.

[pharmakos]

Yes. The time when it is not an advantage is when you are not doing anything. Good call.

lol. the counter-argument in a nut shell.

[Teppler]

Was messing around in HS the other day, jumped through a door that I thought had 2 undead on the other side with IvU, had a skeleton and goo, skeleton harm touched me and they both started hitting me before I got an FD off at 15%. Because Iksar I was able to regen enough HP up to where I could stand and root/mez them and kill them quicker than a non-Iksar would've done.

Was really nice having the 12 FD Regen vs the 4 other races have. Yea, I could've not blindly jumped through the door but there are times as a Necro where you will get an FD off and need to wait on your regen before you can do anything. In those times regening 3x faster is very handy.

I think everyone agrees there's perks to HP regen. The argument presented, at least from my end, is that there are a good amount of situations out there where it doesn't make much of a difference.

The people who say there's no situations where it doesn't help I think are flat out wrong. For example, sometimes I pop my necro on, check if there's names up in HS and if they are I kill them then log back out. I don't stick around and clear stuff for hours. Where's the regen advantage if you're doing a bursts? There's lots of other examples as well.

[Daldaen]

I think everyone agrees there's perks to HP regen. The argument presented, at least from my end, is that there are a good amount of situations out there where it doesn't make much of a difference.

The people who say there's no situations where it doesn't help I think are flat out wrong. For example, sometimes I pop my necro on, check if there's names up in HS and if they are I kill them then log back out. I don't stick around and clear stuff for hours. Where's the regen advantage if you're doing a bursts? There's lots of other examples as well.

Well... The advantage is if charm breaks or root breaks early and you get damaged and have to FD. Or if it happens before you've life tapped, which may lead to a situation where an equally geared Iksar wouldn't have died cause he was losing less HP liching.

The main point I think is, when you're creating a Necro you have a variety of options that boil down to 2:

Iksar - Regen which is clearly useful in many situations, but you level slower
Non-Iksar - No Regen so you will eventually have to lifetap more, but you level a bit faster.

If you are interested in plowing through levels and you don't want a penalty you can go non-Iksar, but then at the end game where the regen makes the most difference you won't have it? Doesn't make sense to me to power to the end game if you aren't interested in min/maxing there.

If leveling speed doesn't matter to you, I don't see any reason one would go any race except Iksar other than for fashionquest, and again... 34-60, you won't see your race at all because you will be liching.

[Teppler]

When picking Necro the prospective Necro needs to weigh options. Answering if regen is useful is one question. Then the next question is, how useful is it exactly? Is it useful enough to make you pick Iksar over the other races? The 2nd part is what I'm addressing. As far as I'm concerned, answering question 1 is open and shut but most people seem to be stuck on it.

[Daldaen]

The real question is why would you NOT pick an Iksar I think. That is the side that needs to give compelling reasons for picking human, gnome, erudite, and dark elf.

None provide particularly useful racial abilities, and their innate stats can all be fixed by gearing. Gnomes get tinkering and wall look... But you can buy tinkered stuff t and shrink pots. Dark elves get hide but CoS and FD make that obsolete quite quickly. Erudites get high INT but that's offsetable by gear. Humans get nothing.

So the only reason I've heard is "because I want to", which is fine - But if you create a thread asking what race to pick, people will give you min/max reasons. Only you can decide personal fashionquest importance for you.

Also to keep in mind the Necro class will almost always be in Skeleton form post 34 due to Lich so even if you love your race pick, you won't see it because you Lich. Unless your desire to fashionquest leads you to never using Lich, which at that point I would say pick a different class cause that's dumb.

[Teppler]

To pick another class you have to weigh stats, fashion quest, w/e else > regen. To make a good education decision on the matter it helps to talk about just how valuable regen is.

[Daldaen]

Well look at the beginning stats of the races.

http://wiki.project1999.com/images/Necro-stats.png

So Iksars have 10 more STR, 5-15 less CHA, and WIS/DEX/AGI are basically useless. So from these stats there isn't really much reason to pick one race or the other.

All races have basically the same STA, 65/70/75. None have a clear winner in this stat. 5 STA means 12 HP at level 60. Such a minuscule value, not going to make much difference ever.

Iksars have 85 INT, which is 23 behind gnome, 24 behind DE and 32 behind Erudite. Basically what this means is an Iksar will need to devote most of their creation stats to INT. while the other races can get away with either stacking INT or pouring theirs into STA. (at level 60, the 25 STA will amount to 60 HP)

At level 60 in Velious most mains will cap out their primary stat (INT) with typical gearing, regardless of base stat. A non-Iksar possibly can focus on HP gear before an Iksar can if they care about capping it. However most good HP/Mana pieces for Necros in Velious also come with INT on them, so a high INT player will end up wasting a lot of it by going over cap.

So the choice is, as a non-Iksar you may dump 25 into STA and get an extra 60 HP later on, or dump it into INT, and sit around 130-140 base INT, allowing you to focus on HP/Mana gear once you cap out (125-115 item/spell INT).

Or... Go Iksar, get gear to equalize the beginning stat difference, and have a racial ability that stacks with everything and cannot be replaced.

Everyone makes mistakes in game, gets hit, needs and FD. Having regen helps in these cases, helps when you're twitching on raids, helps you root rot or fear kite more efficiently, helps you be more efficient in groups. There really is no argument for picking a non-Iksar beyond fashion/you made it before Kunark/you made your classic character.

Regen matters whenever your health isn't 100%, which when you're liching is almost always.

[Teppler]

Int does make some sort of a difference. Lets say you want to gear your Necro towards burst fights and not sustained camping. You might want to stack mana. Lets say you want to have a well rounded build with an added focus on resists, you might easily hit the cap with the high innate int races but not iksar. Lets say you have access to good velious/VP gear and you're group oriented, you can lifetap for free making regen not a big deal at all.

Maybe you weigh fashion quest highly and some of these little things tip the scales. This is what I mean when I talk about weighing options.

[ctre]

Sorry Teppler you are an idiot
People have been explaining nicely to you.
Try reading a few more times.
Read myself & Dalaen's posts as they are most helpful.

[Teppler]

Sorry Teppler you are an idiot
People have been explaining nicely to you.
Try reading a few more times.
Read myself & Dalaen's posts as they are most helpful.

You sound like you don't have the mental capacity for discussion.

Your posts are simplistic and don't add anything. Try reading mine again.

[Mojo24]

Int does make some sort of a difference. Lets say you want to gear your Necro towards burst fights and not sustained camping. You might want to stack mana. Lets say you want to have a well rounded build with an added focus on resists, you might easily hit the cap with the high innate int races but not iksar. Lets say you have access to good velious/VP gear and you're group oriented, you can lifetap for free making regen not a big deal at all.

Maybe you weigh fashion quest highly and some of these little things tip the scales. This is what I mean when I talk about weighing options.

I don't think you comprehend what the extra regen entails. It's worth a lot more than a few extra hundred mana. And why would you even roll a necro to be a burst damage group oriented player??

Grasping at straws bud. Bunch of what if this, what if that. Bottom line is a 60 Iksar with regen will always, no matter what be more efficient than any other race.

Just wanted to add, if you walk around with well rounded resists instead of being prepared for specific encounters you're doing it wrong.

[Beinen]

I've noticed that the Iksar race was made for two classes specifically. The Necro and Monk(sure a distant third shaman.) I main' a human monk on live til around lvl 85 and can say that before all the other crap expansions that leveled the playing field iksar definitely was a greater monk in most cases.

However, necromancers as iksar... Well, natural regen. What class needs this most? Necro. You start and play on a continent that is filled with undead. Necro. As we have pointed out that end game you waste int because we cap it out, well iksar doesn't necessarily. Necro. Cabilis devoted an entire half of their city for the necromancer. The random spells like gate, bind sight, affinity, and voice graft are all available at your necro guild in cab, which are not in other cities.

I'm at work now I forgot the rest but in short - iksar was made with necro in mind if not directly for that class.

I got my necro to 23 as a dark elf and then reroll iksar. Iksar is 12 and got there faster with less deaths and I fight most of my yellow targets as if I were an sk because I can. Sure I could fear kite and I do because most mobs I fight in starting area are undead.

[absol]

People don't just pick DE, Eru, Gnome, Human or whatever for their looks alone. Often its because of the lore attached to the race, the starting area so they can be close to friends, or because they're close to popular hubs like EC, it could be the starting stats, there could be equipment reasons, faction reasons, etc.

Picking a non-optimal race can't be explained by throwing the term "fashionquest" around. I don't know why some of you guys are doing that.

The real question is why would you NOT pick an Iksar I think. That is the side that needs to give compelling reasons for picking human, gnome, erudite, and dark elf.

No they don't. Nobody has to give anyone else 'compelling reasons' for their race choice. What is this?

[Monty405]

I want to be a special snowflake

Therefore I did not roll iksar

[Daldaen]

No they don't. Nobody has to give anyone else 'compelling reasons' for their race choice. What is this?

If you wish to be a special snowflake or you don't care about min/maxing, of course you don't need to provide a compelling reason because you don't care about the argument I was making, and again, that's fine play what you want. I'm not going to interrogate you as to why you didn't pick Iksar.

But don't try to justify that a gnome is equally as powerful/efficient as an Iksar in all circumstances, because they aren't. Regen is clearly the most beneficial stat a Necromancer can have due to the nature of Lich spells, and Iksar is the only race that provides this stat, which cannot be replaced or offset by gear or spells, like other races innate stats or abilities can be.

If you didn't come for min/maxing and you REALLY care about what your race looks like (ignoring the fact that 34+ you will be a skeleton for most of your playtime), then roll whatever you wish! If you came to try to min/max and get the most efficiency and power out of your character, roll an Iksar.

[Teppler]

I don't think you comprehend what the extra regen entails. It's worth a lot more than a few extra hundred mana. And why would you even roll a necro to be a burst damage group oriented player??

I've been playing necro for a longggg time and do challenging camps. It was my main in classic and I was 50 when Kunark dropped here. Burst damage necro is good if you are doing encounters where you are waiting for something to spawn. It's extra firing power. With group oriented play you can add lifetaps which is good dps, especially if it's challenging mobs where lifetap is hard to resist.


Grasping at straws bud. Bunch of what if this, what if that. Bottom line is a 60 Iksar with regen will always, no matter what be more efficient than any other race.

:rolleyes:

People are not comprehending that the discussion is not about if regen is useful, it's about how useful it is and where it's not really that big a factor.


Just wanted to add, if you walk around with well rounded resists instead of being prepared for specific encounters you're doing it wrong.

Resist builds are situational. You don't walk around with them, you are prepared to use them when the right situation calls.

[absol]

If you wish to be a special snowflake or you don't care about min/maxing, of course you don't need to provide a compelling reason because you don't care about the argument I was making, and again, that's fine play what you want. I'm not going to interrogate you as to why you didn't pick Iksar.

You said the people who don't pick Iksar should be giving compelling arguments as to why they didn't. I picked DE, so that meant me. Your statement was pretty much all-encompassing. If you meant something else, fair enough, but what you meant and what you said are two different things.

But don't try to justify that a gnome is equally as powerful/efficient as an Iksar in all circumstances, because they aren't. Regen is clearly the most beneficial stat a Necromancer can have due to the nature of Lich spells, and Iksar is the only race that provides this stat, which cannot be replaced or offset by gear or spells, like other races innate stats or abilities can be.

I've never said that. In fact I agree that the Iksar is the most efficient race for the Necro and I've said as much earlier in the thread. I've never tried to play down their regen, but what I have said is that it isn't a good enough reason to play Iksar for me.

If you didn't come for min/maxing and you REALLY care about what your race looks like (ignoring the fact that 34+ you will be a skeleton for most of your playtime), then roll whatever you wish! If you came to try to min/max and get the most efficiency and power out of your character, roll an Iksar.

Again, you're trying to assert that the reason people pick non-Iksar is because of 'fashionquest', even if you've been careful to try and avoid that term. Its not just about looks.

[Daldaen]

What I said was in direct reference to someone arguing that other races are better picks based on their innate stats, and abilities. In that context, I was asking them to provide an argument for why that is true. Taken out of that context, yes what I wrote reads as though I'm running up to every DE and Gnome Necro and asking them to explain themselves.

Beyond the looks, and disliking the way your character looks, what else is your race pick about? To me a race pick is looks, and innate stats/abilities. To a lesser degree there is something about their faction/ability to travel to cities and be non-KoS. But on a Necro you're KoS many places regardless of race and in most cases skeleton illusion makes you friendly (Atleast it does in any Necro guild).

I'm genuinely curious. If it's not about those things (looks, stats, faction), what else is it about to you and others? If the regen benefit of Iksar wasn't a good enough to roll one, what benefit (whether it be subjective or objective) did your race pick yield that outweighed the regen and lead you to pick that other race.

[Jitsumo]

The reason I chose to go DE over Iksar was to avoid the xp penalty. I never had a char over 50 on live and doubt I will be able to invest enough time to make this one past 50 on p99. This way I will be able to level up a decent amount faster and hopefully see new content. I'm sure at 60 it makes a huge difference to be an Iksar, but I will never see those days.

This is all cut and dry really. Can't believe we are seeing 19 pages on this topic.

[Beinen]

I made a DE necro and leveled to 22... Reroll iksar necro and I was able to make it back to 12 faster than my DE made it there. I'll fill you in how my travels go further and if I see a difference in leveling time. I suspect the hp regen is going to decrease my downtime if anything and I know at low levels as I play more like an SK(have a decent weapon) so I can out dps my pet then the hp regen is huge

[Jitsumo]

I have been doing the bard diet and aviaks up to 24 so far. Since I have been doing static spawns I would not be able to level faster as an Iksar with less down time.

[absol]

I'm genuinely curious. If it's not about those things (looks, stats, faction), what else is it about to you and others? If the regen benefit of Iksar wasn't a good enough to roll one, what benefit (whether it be subjective or objective) did your race pick yield that outweighed the regen and lead you to pick that other race.

For me, there were a number of reasons.

1) Neriak, I like that city. Even though you don't spend much time there unless you're banking, selling or getting spells, the time I do spend there I like. Its got a cool atmosphere.

2) Friends started in Freeport, so it was easy to hook up with them. EC for SoW's, North Ro for bone chips, Befallen, Oasis, boat to Faydwer for Unrest and Mistmoore.

3) DE Lore. They practise evil as their religion, and as individuals they're very self centred. It seems like a decent fit for a Necro.

4) To me, they look cool. I know others prefer Iksar for their looks. More power to you if you do.

I played DE and Iksar on live. Got the DE to 50. Then rolled an Iksar, got to 65 and raided pop. Now I'm back playing again, and this time around I'm taking it easy. I done my fair share of min maxing, now I just play what feels right, rather than whats optimal.

[ghost182]

I think Iksar makes for the better race 50+, can't agrue against that. I think the zones and mob types are a wash. Kurds tower vs befallen.. Kaesora in ku ark. Everything else is crap ZEM and you aren't bound to a continent either it's easy to travel. My point would be that regardless of race, necro is just a powerful class in general. You can optimize and go iksar, you can pick what race you like the look of. That's all fine. It's a strong class regardless. Doesn't need to be a debate

[Beinen]

Besides. As an iksar everyone hates you so hate them back and slaughter everything.

[Raev]

I don't understand why this thread has gone around in circles for 19 pages. Iksars are the best; they are the only min/max choice. But the advantage, while one of the larger racial differences, is still relatively small; a good (and well socialized!) player can do just fine without the Iksar bonuses if they wish.

[Mojo24]

I've been playing necro for a longggg time and do challenging camps. It was my main in classic and I was 50 when Kunark dropped here. Burst damage necro is good if you are doing encounters where you are waiting for something to spawn. It's extra firing power. With group oriented play you can add lifetaps which is good dps, especially if it's challenging mobs where lifetap is hard to resist.



:rolleyes:

People are not comprehending that the discussion is not about if regen is useful, it's about how useful it is and where it's not really that big a factor.



Resist builds are situational. You don't walk around with them, you are prepared to use them when the right situation calls.

Ok, again...why would you roll a necro to do burst damage and be a group oriented player? That's stupid. Roll a mage or a wizard to do burst damage.

Losing 4hp vs 15hp while sitting or 18 vs 10 standing is a big deal. (No demi for me yet)

And thanks for quoting my last line and agreeing with it. Why'd you even bother?

[ctre]

Ok, again...why would you roll a necro to do burst damage and be a group oriented player? That's stupid. Roll a mage or a wizard to do burst damage.

Losing 4hp vs 15hp while sitting or 18 vs 10 standing is a big deal. (No demi for me yet)

And thanks for quoting my last line and agreeing with it. Why'd you even bother?

Ya so true.. necro's are not efficient at burst dps.. waste of an idea to think you are the burst dps as a necro.

[Teppler]

Ok, again...why would you roll a necro to do burst damage and be a group oriented player? That's stupid. Roll a mage or a wizard to do burst damage.

Losing 4hp vs 15hp while sitting or 18 vs 10 standing is a big deal. (No demi for me yet)

And thanks for quoting my last line and agreeing with it. Why'd you even bother?

A few things.

Necros are really great in groups. They DPS with the best of them when undead charming is there. They have among the highest utility in the game with heals/mez/root/snare/rez/twitch. They have among the best mana regen in the game which allows them to add in nukes as well.

I'll give you an example I used earlier where bursts come in handy. Often time I'll log in with my necro, check if a named is up in howling stones and kill it. I don't stick around for hours camping. Just kill 1 mob and log. In this case, having a lot of firing power can be useful. You guys aren't understanding what I mean when I use the term burst, I mean being able to do as much damage in 1 fight as possible, not necessarily nuking a target down.

Some of you guys don't think outside the box enough.

[Manticmuse]

The only counter argument to iksar that ever approached making sense to me was the thread that guy made about being erudite on a pvp server. I still didn't agree and would not choose anything but the master race...but it was interesting to think on how a couple extra spell casts could really affect a short pvp fight. Then again, I am no expert at necro pvp strategies and would choose regen regardless. Just wanted to bring up the pvp thread in case anyone felt like digging it up.

[iruinedyourday]

The only counter argument to iksar that ever approached making sense to me was the thread that guy made about being erudite on a pvp server. I still didn't agree and would not choose anything but the master race...but it was interesting to think on how a couple extra spell casts could really affect a short pvp fight. Then again, I am no expert at necro pvp strategies and would choose regen regardless. Just wanted to bring up the pvp thread in case anyone felt like digging it up.

Tbh the regen in PvP is kind of invaluable.. So on red iksar is even more OP

But duuuuuude a dark elf with that crypt robe from dalnir is the COOLest

[Synthlol]

I don't understand why this thread has gone around in circles for 19 pages. Iksars are the best; they are the only min/max choice. But the advantage, while one of the larger racial differences, is still relatively small; a good (and well socialized!) player can do just fine without the Iksar bonuses if they wish.

This is very accurate. No racial is actually game breaking. They're just nice.

[Daldaen]

This is very accurate. No racial is actually game breaking. They're just nice.

Except being a Gnome or Halfling. It breaks the game cause they look so dumb.

[Robbintha Hood]

This entire thread has me like:

http://bookriotcom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/jerry-jerry-jerry.gif

[Llodd]

Ya so true.. necro's are not efficient at burst dps.. waste of an idea to think you are the burst dps as a necro.

Not entirely true. Undead we can do reasonably efficient burst dps. undead nuke + deflux, with clicky to avoid cooldown is not that bad.

[Psionide]

You pick Dark Elf because they are the true OG masters of Necromancy.

[Shjade]

Old thread, but what the heck:

Why (assuming this is what was meant, as "how" is...well, obvious - you click a different button) do I not choose Iksar?

I can't stand playing Iksar.

It's really that simple. I've tried. I REALLY wanted to make an Iksar monk and do all the punching things with the cool regen and everything, but I really can't stand them at all. Cabilis is ugly and bland and blech, I loathe all the Kunark starting areas despite how everyone else seems to think they're the best (which I still don't understand, outside of Kurn's), the models and sounds they make are unappealing...they're just no fun for me to play. Way too much to sacrifice just to have HP tick up faster. And that's before even getting into the faction issues, which I have plenty of as an evil-as-fuck Dark Elf anyway.

Up to level 51 now, and yeah, it's really apparent how good Iksar regen is when I group up with an Iksar necro for something and compare how fast I'm bleeding out while their bar barely dips in the same period of time. It's definitely significant, and I'd love to have it...but I don't want it badly enough to put up with playing an Iksar to get it.

Besides, I have a feeling I'd play a lot sloppier if I had such a huge buffer on my hp->mana conversion rate. That's not saying anyone else who plays Iksar plays sloppy (some do, but come on, some of every race/class combo play sloppy...MOST of every race/class combo plays sloppy; don't even get me started on bards who don't twist songs oh my god just don't), just saying that I, personally, would probably play sloppier, just knowing my own inclinations. Having a lower margin for error means I play better, focus more. Just the way I am; I operate best under pressure. :D

Here endeth the ramble no one cares about~

[Kevynne]

If you want to level the fastest. >>> (Gnome is the overall fastest)
If you want the strongest level 60 race >>> (Iksar is the overall strongest)

The rest is all debatable.. as all have there good/bad sides.

gnome isnt fastest

[zeo1987]

You pick Dark Elf because they are the true OG masters of Necromancy.

^



yea, but seriously. Dark elf or Gnome for pre kunark minmax, and iksar for lategame minmax.. w/e i just play Dark elf. dont care about the detailed math, I understand it. but i prefer my classy Dark elf.

Plus you've got Nektulos, Lavastorm, Najena, EC, and Befallen all within running distance and within level 10.

I want some Classic style starter quests. like maybe a quest for a rogue to get a full set of leather, or patchwork. maybe a weapon or something other than the Buckler of the Ebon hand.

lol but im just saying

[ctre]

gnome isnt fastest

Before Velious .. def Gnome by a long shot. (ref Tinkering).

Now with holgresh Elder beads.. mehh.. you work it out.

[Galvatar]

Dark Elf, if you need that Iksar regen you suck anyway.

[Whoop]

Non ikaar necro is more challenging, juggeling mana/hp is fun and class related imo.

[Ferenczy]

I am considering loading this game back up and rebuilding my old necro. I came in late at the beginning of SoD, so i missed a good amount of the content yall are familiar with. But AoN was a ruthless solo kite tool when i played. Clicking it stopped mount overrun time so you could cast without waiting for your mount to stop. But for all i know there might not be mounts yet, shrug. Either way, looking forward to getting this running...

[Pyrion]

There won't ever be mounts here. Get used to that idea.

[baalzy]

With Velious out, the iksar regen isn't as big of a bonus. 10th ring + Zland heart = 15hp /tick regen.

If you ever get the necro clicky staff from VP then all iksar regen bonus becomes moot if you have holgresh beads.

That said, I like my iksar necro still for the more balanced stats and it looks cooler. My gnome is still super useful as an old world dungeon farmer because i can see through walls with him tho.

[Ronnie328]

I think an int race it's probably better than lizard for necro. My necro on live was DE. I never felt like I couldn't handle the lich. Plus having a much higher starting int and a much higher stam (if you allocate your start points that way) makes it much easier to hit your caps and start gearing in other ways. What good is better regen if you have to sacrifice health, resists, and to a lesser extent mana, to have it?

[Daldaen]

Stamina really blows on casters. The returns are horrible and raw HP is almost always better pick. Stamina is only useful when it's incidental to better stats from an item.

There are plenty times as a Necro where I'm not casting life drains because of their cost and being able to go longer while liched without having to cast those mana hogs is very nice.

As mentioned before the regen items stack with Iksar regen. Meaning a level 60 Necro with Demi Lich while sitting loses 25 HP as a non-Iksar. Iksars only lose 14.

With 10th Ring + Z Heart an Iksar gains 1 HP a tick. A non-Iksar is still losing 10 HP a tick.

This is a size able difference that no gear ever really makes up for. Maybe a soul well staff + Holgresh beads but then you don't have a pet and you have to summon pets / stand more to click it.

When soloing or in small group situations I definitely notice the regen being very helpful.

[Ronnie328]

My point is being capped with less gear is also an advantage. I'm not saying that regen isn't an advantage. Just that there are advantages to being other races too

[uolen]

Play what ever race you want, necros get plenty of heals to counter it. It's just that iksars have to worry about it and use those heals alot less.

As a non iksar how do you feel about going afk in lich? I do it all the time and don't worry at 54.

[Bionic]

I was one of the top necros on my server on live and cannot point to one specific instance where I failed to solo a mob and thought "If I only could regen 8 hps more per tic...".

Pick whatever class you like. You'll be fine.

[Colgate 2.0]

you have to be a total newbie/retard to think that iksar isn't leaps and bounds ahead of every other race for necromancer/monk

[Beinen]

Iksar race was made for me necromancer, secondly for monk. IMO

[Spyder73]

you have to be a total newbie/retard to think that iksar isn't leaps and bounds ahead of every other race for necromancer/monk

Human is master race for Monk - Iskar is master race for Necro - All know this.

[Beinen]

Nahh, human monk strengths are faction and ...never mind, faction. But considering sneak it doesn't matter. But back to necro. Iksar was made for necro because your innate regen bonus is great for all situations. Plus if you have trouble going certain places you have forage so I rarely run out of water. Ac bonus, and of course the tail!!!

[Troxx]

I haven't made a necro yet, but it'll be necro when I do.

I'd rather play a dark elf, but the regen is just too good to pass up.

[bloodmuffin]

you have to be a total newbie/retard to think that iksar isn't leaps and bounds ahead of every other race for necromancer/monk

I was also in disbelief when I read this thread. The autism levels are out of this world.

[Teppler]

I was also in disbelief when I read this thread. The autism levels are out of this world.

And these posts are the worst in the thread. Not only are they wrong but they don't attempt to discuss a relevant point.

[Beinen]

And these posts are the worst in the thread. Not only are they wrong but they don't attempt to discuss a relevant point.

I very much agree.

[iruinedyourday]

Is there some new data here? or why is this being discussed this was determined a non debatable subject for years and now all of the sudden people are trying to dispute the findings?

or is what we have here is a religious based argument against a scientific one?

[pharmakos]

somehow the debate shifted from "what's the best necromancer race?" to "does min/maxing even matter?"

with the latter crowd being the more vocal ones in a thread that isn't even really relevant to them.

[iruinedyourday]

escapegoat is a good game.

[Teppler]

somehow the debate shifted from "what's the best necromancer race?" to "does min/maxing even matter?"

with the latter crowd being the more vocal ones in a thread that isn't even really relevant to them.

There's certain things like this and stun vs regen for shaman that can be discussed forever pretty much since the term "best" can mean a lot of different things.

Is the best set up for raiding necessarily the best set up for soloing and are either of them necessarily the best set up for grouping?

Is the way you're going to utilize your necro relevant to the extra regen? On the surface you might think the obvious answer is yes but there's a lot of discussion and observation involved here.

[pharmakos]

no, you're still discussing whether or not min/maxing matters, not whether or not iksar are the best min/max race.

stun resistance vs. regen for shamans is a different story because its two worthwhile racials. what other necro race has a worthwhile racial ability? there's a small argument to be made for dark elf hide i suppose. and gnome tinkering. and faction from anyone. but that's about it, and if we're talking about end-game performance then hide and faction are negated by CoS and grinding.

there are no other racial bonuses that hold a candle to iksar regen. whether or not that matters to you is up to you.

[ghost182]

I just hit lvl 49 on my necro and the lich is really starting to eat me alive now. I wish I had that regen. I can lifetap, but i really don't want to be forced to all the time. If i'm not constantly killing then im clicking off lich which is bad. I guess i got what i wanted, a dark elf. no regrets though, other than 49 lvls.

[Daldaen]

I just hit lvl 49 on my necro and the lich is really starting to eat me alive now. I wish I had that regen. I can lifetap, but i really don't want to be forced to all the time. If i'm not constantly killing then im clicking off lich which is bad. I guess i got what i wanted, a dark elf. no regrets though, other than 49 lvls.

You notice it at this level and then at level 60 with Demi Lich just how much you get destroyed by the lack of Iksar regen.

Was at a raid on my Necro the other day with Demi Lich rolling + Druid Regrowth BP clicks I didn't lose mana while sitting and could maintain Lich the entire raid even when no mobs were in camp.

Any other race would've been losing 10 HP/tick while sitting under those circumstances.

[Teppler]

no, you're still discussing whether or not min/maxing matters, not whether or not iksar are the best min/max race.

stun resistance vs. regen for shamans is a different story because its two worthwhile racials. what other necro race has a worthwhile racial ability? there's a small argument to be made for dark elf hide i suppose. and gnome tinkering. and faction from anyone. but that's about it, and if we're talking about end-game performance then hide and faction are negated by CoS and grinding.

there are no other racial bonuses that hold a candle to iksar regen. whether or not that matters to you is up to you.

No other race has a worthwhile racial ability for necro. Some classes have some better stats but those don't make that big a difference. I think a lot of it is how you play your necro. Someone like me, I have no interest in raiding whatsoever. Nor would I want to use a necro to camp stuff for hours on end(I'd rather make a mage or chanter for that) I like to log onto my necro, go for a challenging big money target then log. Or group big targets. So take a look at these situations-

You log on your necro only to check if a big ticket item is up and if it is you kill it within 15 mins and log off. Or, lets say you're in a group and you're taking down a big target once every 15 minutes otherwise you're sitting around.

Regen isn't going to help you for either of these. In fact, I'd probably stack mana and hp in this case which makes added higher base int a bit useful.

[Ronnie328]

I just hit lvl 49 on my necro and the lich is really starting to eat me alive now. I wish I had that regen. I can lifetap, but i really don't want to be forced to all the time. If i'm not constantly killing then im clicking off lich which is bad. I guess i got what i wanted, a dark elf. no regrets though, other than 49 lvls.you're doing it wrong.

and for the people out there only comparing racials, then you're right. Iksar has the best racial. and anyone having a hard time managing lich is bad at necro.

Now, full disclosure, i don't play necro now, i don't raid now, i'm not gonna raid in the future. I did all my raiding in the past. And in the past, my DE necro was much better in raids than the iksar varieties because my stats and resists were better than my iksar counterparts, because i was able to cap stats much faster due to the higher base. So i guess regen is really cool, unless you die because your HP is lower or your resists are lower.

If you want to talk max/min then higher health and higher resists are always better than a racial that amounts to 10 hp per tick.

[Faywind]

No other race has a worthwhile racial ability for necro. Some classes have some better stats but those don't make that big a difference. I think a lot of it is how you play your necro. Someone like me, I have no interest in raiding whatsoever. Nor would I want to use a necro to camp stuff for hours on end(I'd rather make a mage or chanter for that) I like to log onto my necro, go for a challenging big money target then log. Or group big targets. So take a look at these situations-

You log on your necro only to check if a big ticket item is up and if it is you kill it within 15 mins and log off. Or, lets say you're in a group and you're taking down a big target once every 15 minutes otherwise you're sitting around.

Regen isn't going to help you for either of these. In fact, I'd probably stack mana and hp in this case which makes added higher base int a bit useful.

I don't recall every doing either of those "situations" you are describing but I suppose in that limited manor, Iksar regen isn't as useful. However, the vast majority doesn't play like that so Iksar regen will still mean a lot more to them than it would to you.

[Tann]

Skimmed thread, 100% convinced to roll a human/de/gnome now.

[rxfh]

Skimmed thread, 100% convinced to roll a human/de/gnome now.

You fail the neckbeard challenge.

[filthyphil]

Erudites have become more and more common on Red for their higher mana pool. Dots are easily dispelled and you rely on your mana pool to lifetap people down more than anything.

But the Iksars regen is still very advantageous. All illusions drop upon zoning, zoning being a major factor in PvP means you are losing that Lich at every ZL. But as an Iksar you can run Allure of Death while standing/running/zoning and never lose HP while still getting a small return on mana.

I still prefer iksar for their higher FR, and stone of morrid.

[Morningbreath]

I can't deal with the exp penalty of Iksars. Period. All it means to me is more reps. More reps means more mindless repetition and to me that makes the game less fun.

Not only that, but lifetaps and lifetap DOTs are practically irresistible so that automatically makes them a part of my DOT stacking spell selection at all levels. I'm going to use them anyway so the fact that an iksar uses them less often is no issue to me. The mana you waste by casting double-save DOTs that get resisted 50% of the time instead of lifetaps is going to slow you down in the long run.

So no, I really don't care about Iksar regen. Maybe for monks and shaman it's a game changer but the exp penalty isn't worth it to me and it's not even a consideration.


My Project 1999 video playlist (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOxuLTBCUXiJhTgy6URba38FoRu4dkP7C)

[B4EQWASCOOL]

I can't deal with the exp penalty of Iksars. Period. All it means to me is more reps. More reps means more mindless repetition and to me that makes the game less fun.

Not only that, but lifetaps and lifetap DOTs are practically irresistible so that automatically makes them a part of my DOT stacking spell selection at all levels. I'm going to use them anyway so the fact that an iksar uses them less often is no issue to me. The mana you waste by casting double-save DOTs that get resisted 50% of the time instead of lifetaps is going to slow you down in the long run.

So no, I really don't care about Iksar regen. Maybe for monks and shaman it's a game changer but the exp penalty isn't worth it to me and it's not even a consideration.


My Project 1999 video playlist (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOxuLTBCUXiJhTgy6URba38FoRu4dkP7C)

I think you have made the best argument to try red in your first paragraph that I have ever seen.

[NegaStoat]

I'm playing on Blue, and I rolled a Necro just to take it to 51 for splurt and park it for farming or whatever. Mostly I just wanted to level one up to say I did it. I went Dark Elf.

The leveling route I chose consisted of mostly camping 4 or less mobs, every step of the way, focusing on 6 min respawns. I can honestly say being an Iksar wouldn't have helped me up to 46 (where I am right now).

If I had ANY intention of going beyond 51 for Endgame, the regeneration would have been so obvious in how much it helps that there's no question that it's stupid to pass it up.

Being able to build a big (for a cloth caster) HP and Mana pool cheaply was nice being the DE though.

[pharmakos]

I think you have made the best argument to try red in your first paragraph that I have ever seen.

playing on red just for the bonus EXP is not a good reason to play red

[Tann]

The leveling route I chose consisted of mostly camping 4 or less mobs, every step of the way, focusing on 6 min respawns. I can honestly say being an Iksar wouldn't have helped me up to 46 (where I am right now).

^^ this pretty much. Last 3 mob camp I did on my necro had a good 1min betwixt spawns, had to turn off lich after every cycle cause mana would be full.

This whole debate seems kinda silly, the class by itself is already insanely efficient. The added regen I'm sure is a nifty bonus but its not a game changer like getting Torpor.

[Swish]

This whole debate seems kinda silly, the class by itself is already insanely efficient. The added regen I'm sure is a nifty bonus but its not a game changer like getting Torpor.

I'd hate to see the comparative health drain for lich and higher on a non-iksar. That in itself makes places like Howling Stones that bit more perilous... and if you like the extra challenge, jump in with both feet...smoothskin :p

[Tann]

I'd hate to see the comparative health drain for lich and higher on a non-iksar. That in itself makes places like Howling Stones that bit more perilous... and if you like the extra challenge, jump in with both feet...smoothskin :p

if only there was a spell line that healed you over time whilst also damaging the target over time for a not terrible dpm that could make up for the health loss...stubbleneedstoshaveskin :p

[Faywind]

if only there was a spell line that healed you over time whilst also damaging the target over time for a not terrible dpm that could make up for the health loss...stubbleneedstoshaveskin :p

Those leach spells are terribly inefficient and the worst DPM of all our dots...just sayin :rolleyes:

[Pyrion]

Add to that the out of combat medding where you will quickly need to click off your lich type spell, whereas an iksar can have it on way longer, prolly not needing to click it off at all.

Still, even a non iksar necro is totally viable if you can't stand being iksar. There are disadvantages (faction, xp), so it's not a trvial choice for everyone.

[Swish]

Sounds like a real hassle not being an iksar.... I got one on blue (60) and had been leveling one on red - no regrets at all.

Also you're a necromancer so not many people like you anyway, might as well go all in and be hated by everyone from day 1 - and use skeleton form to bank in the evil cities etc.

[Ronnie328]

Seriously? Who are these people that can't manage a necro without regen? Can't they also not ride their bike without training wheels?

[Tann]

Seriously? Who are these people that can't manage a necro without regen? Can't they also not ride their bike without training wheels?

now calm down 2015'er, we don't want no trouble round here.

[Ronnie328]

now calm down 2015'er, we don't want no trouble round here.

Lol

[Faywind]

Seriously? Who are these people that can't manage a necro without regen? Can't they also not ride their bike without training wheels?

Not one person stated they can't manage without regen. Regen just helps keep the mana flowing a little better is all. It's sort of like a free fungi tunic at 60, very nice to have for sure but not a be all and end all piece of gear.