Melee Damage Information

[Tappin]

In the Project 1999 Player FAQ there is mention about weapon damage and there is a link provided with some really good information.

Basically it explains that weapon damage can be figured by using this formula:

Average_Slash = (2 * Weapon_Base) + Bonus_Modifier + STR Modifier(NOTE: Bonus damage and STR modify damage after level 28, or at least bonus damage does.(still not sure about STR))

So to show the resulting damage let's make an example:

Level 1 rogue with a Polished Steel Dirk(8/23)would hit for 16 damage max with this weapon. This is because the weapons damage is 8 and we multiply it by 2. I receive no bonus modifier at level 1.. or so it seems. And thats what this thread is for. Well, 2 questions.

First of all my rogue(like I just mentioned) does 16 damage per hit(still at level 10)... And he has 102 STR unbuffed. According to the first part of the formula for figuring damage you multiply your weapons damage by 2 and then add the bonus damage. Multiplying my dagger's damage by two = 16. So I can assume there is no damage modifier and ALSO, STR is no contributing to my damage at all. So:

1) Does STR contribute to your melee damage? If so, how much STR does it take to see an increase in damage. Does it just start to affect damage at higher levels? If STR does not affect damage, than why do people play Barbarian Rogues, other than pure race preference. Is there is reason to play one over halfling, if STR does not effect damage. >>ANSWERED<< STR will affect your damage with melee weapons after level 28(or that what has been said here so far). STR also increases your ATK. ATK will help you to hit for the higher end of whatever your current weapon cap is, more often(so less hit for 1 damage! :)).

2) Does anyone know or have a link to something showing the class bonus damage modifiers?

I do not claim that any of the formula I posted is accurate, or that any of this information(other than info regarding my own rogue) is true. That is why I'm coming here to ask.

A few more things I'd like to know about are:

It seems when I'm really buffed(str buffs and such) at low level, I seem to hit for the max amount of damage that I can with my current weapon more often. Does having higher STR increase the chance of hitting your max damage? >>ANSWERED<< Like mentioned above. Having higher STR increases ATK which helps you to hit for your current max damage more often.

And how does weapons and melee skills work? Do skills have a max amount of damage they can do when maxed out at a certain level? And do weapons add to that damage or no?
>>PARTIALLY ANSWERED(STILL NEED MORE INFO)<< A weapon will affect how much damage a skill does.

Thanks in advance!

[yt2005]

Don't forget about the damage cap, though obviously it isn't really relevant to the issue we're discussing.

[Haynar]

In the classic sense.

Parse your combat. And figure out what works.

Haynar

[Tappin]

In the classic sense.

Parse your combat. And figure out what works.

Haynar

Well, what exactly would parsing show, that I don't already know? If I had a high level melee toon to do some more testing, perhaps. But given my current situation, what would parsing show me?

As I explained already... 16 damage is the max damage I can do with this weapon with no other contributions from stats or class bonus damage modifier. And the max I do at level 11 is 16 damage with auto swings. That makes it clear that at my current level I receive no class bonus damage and I also receive no str bonus damage(if that is, in fact, how it works)... I'm just looking for some clarification! :)

[Cyrius]

Damage cap. Level a toon past 20.

[Kassel]

STR makes you hit for max damage more often.

here is an interested thread that goes into a lot of detail

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=161556

[Tappin]

Damage cap. Level a toon past 20.

For clarification, what are the caps? Do they scale damage back, or do they just prevent you from doing more than a set amount of damage?

I'm 100% certain I'm not hitting cap unless there is a 1h cap that is separate from a 2h cap. But I'm sure that I see people below level 20 that are hitting for 40 with a 2h weapon. I'm hitting for no more than 16 which is my weapon damage x2, and thats the whole reason for starting this thread. Actually now that I think about it.. I know that the 1h cap is not 16. My shaman with her Gloomwater Harpoon was hitting for 18 at level 1.

I'm just curious what STR does for damage and also, if anyone has a list of class bonus damage modifiers! Does STR affect damage after 20?

[Zithax]

In the classic sense.

Parse your combat. And figure out what works.

Haynar

Security through obscurity, NEVER GETS OLD

[Tappin]

STR makes you hit for max damage more often.

here is an interested thread that goes into a lot of detail

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=161556

You sir, have answered a question! Thank you! If that is the case, than you've answered more than 1, actually. That explains why barbs are rogues also :)! Thanks!

[Haynar]

Security through obscurity, NEVER GETS OLD

Nope. Means more than we can change it and tweak it, and don't have to tell everytime we make adjustments. We try to make it more like live. But sometimes it is not as simple as it seems.

I still want to work on adding in the damage * 2 spike in melee output. And the damage bonus tables above 50 need adjusted on a class by class basis, to make sure the scaling is correct.

Many things are a work in progress, without simple solutions.

Haynar

[Tappin]

Haynar,

How is it SUPPOSED to work? I understand tweaks are always being made, but what was the system in classic?

[FireEmblem86]

Doesn't seem like the link provided this answer, so here it is:

Damage cap = dmg * 2

Where dmg is the weapon's stated damage.

I don't quite know how, but I have gone over this on an Ogre SK (doing 19 damage with a rusty two-hander) and my Iksar Warrior (doing the same amount of damage with his 9 dmg pike).

So people hitting for 40 damage with a 2hander are using a weapon with 20 damage.

[aVoided]

Haynar,

How is it SUPPOSED to work? I understand tweaks are always being made, but what was the system in classic?

I don't get it either. I NEVER played melee in EQ classic or such until P99 in which I just started a rogue last month. I now have that said rogue to 23 with a trident of the 7 seas from phinyy which is 10 dmg. Even at lvl 23 with 155 str UNBUFFED I STILL hit for only 20's...

So I'd like to know also what is the formula and when is a rogues dmg cap lifted because it certainly is not 20....

[Tappin]

Doesn't seem like the link provided this answer, so here it is:

Damage cap = dmg * 2


So class bonus damage modifiers do nothing then? Or do you mean that is the cap below level 20? In other words, before level 20 you cannot do more twice the damage that is listed on your weapon? Thats the way it seems so far, but I'm only level 13 ATM and I don't know at what level class bonus damage modifiers start to kick in, if at all.

[Messianic]

So class bonus damage modifiers do nothing then? Or do you mean that is the cap below level 20? In other words, before level 20 you cannot do more twice the damage that is listed on your weapon? Thats the way it seems so far, but I'm only level 13 ATM and I don't know at what level class bonus damage modifiers start to kick in, if at all.

levels 1-9 - damage cap is 20
levels 10-19 - damage cap is 40
20+ - lifted, can do 2x weap damage or more based on class

[Tappin]

levels 1-9 - damage cap is 20
levels 10-19 - damage cap is 40
20+ - lifted, can do 2x weap damage or more based on class

So after level 20 is when the class bonus damage modifiers start to work?

[Cheps]

From my experience on this server (I'm a lvl 50 ranger), you only start seeing more damage at later level.

The dmg*2 formula is true until lvl 28 where you get 1 bonus damage every 3 levels to your main hand attack. So at level 50 you get 8 extra bonus damage:
main hand = (dmg*2)+8
off hand = dmg*2

That's why a fast weapon can perform as good as a slower weapon with better ration. In my case, a dragon spined claw (10/21) only outdamage a revultant whip (5/14) by about 10% or maybe a bit more (that's my personal parse). For off hand, you need the best possible ratio (no damage bonus).

As for str, you will notice more effects at later level. It does increase my max damage when I go from 180 (unbuffed) to about 250 (shaman buff). In the end, my main hand 10/21 has a max damage of about 45, so from the formula:
(2*10)+8 = 28
I have an extra 17 damage, I would think that it is all coming from str bonus at my level? Not sure.

The other effect of str is that it raises your ATK (about 1 ATK for 1 str) and the more ATK you have, the more likely you will get high hits.

[Tappin]

From my experience on this server (I'm a lvl 50 ranger), you only start seeing more damage at later level.

The dmg*2 formula is true until lvl 28 where you get 1 bonus damage every 3 levels to your main hand attack. So at level 50 you get 8 extra bonus damage:
main hand = (dmg*2)+8
off hand = dmg*2

That's why a fast weapon can perform as good as a slower weapon with better ration. In my case, a dragon spined claw (10/21) only outdamage a revultant whip (5/14) by about 10% or maybe a bit more (that's my personal parse). For off hand, you need the best possible ratio (no damage bonus).

As for str, you will notice more effects at later level. It does increase my max damage when I go from 180 (unbuffed) to about 250 (shaman buff). In the end, my main hand 10/21 has a max damage of about 45, so from the formula:
(2*10)+8 = 28
I have an extra 17 damage, I would think that it is all coming from str bonus at my level? Not sure.

The other effect of str is that it raises your ATK (about 1 ATK for 1 str) and the more ATK you have, the more likely you will get high hits.

Brilliant! Thank you :)

[Tappin]

levels 1-9 - damage cap is 20
levels 10-19 - damage cap is 40
20+ - lifted, can do 2x weap damage or more based on class

To clarify, you can do 2x weapon damage at level 1, as long as that does not exceed 20 damage. Example:

Level 1 rogue with 8/23 weapon can do 2x weapon damage because 8x2 = 16(below cap).

Level 1 warrior with 20/47 weapon cannot do 2x weapon damage because 20x2 = 40(20 damage over cap).


NEW QUESTION: IF STR = ATK and ATK allows you to hit for your max amount of damage more often, would the same amount of ATK be needed at level 1 to hit for max damage every time, as a level 50? In other words(if it were possible, and I'm pretty sure its not) if a level 1 had 500 ATK and this allowed him to hit for max damage every time, would he, at level 50, hit for max damage every hit if he still had 500 ATK? Does it require more ATK at higher levels to be able to hit for max damage more often, or does it remain the same? If anyone has any information regarding this, please share! :)

[Dantes]

The dmg*2 formula is true until lvl 28 where you get 1 bonus damage every 3 levels to your main hand attack. So at level 50 you get 8 extra bonus damage:
main hand = (dmg*2)+8
off hand = dmg*2

Is this true only for 1H weapons? With a 2H slasher, I've noticed damage increase at every level after 28.

[FireEmblem86]

Is this true only for 1H weapons? With a 2H slasher, I've noticed damage increase at every level after 28.

2Handed damage bonus is based off of delay and level, not just level. I don't know the exact formula, but Monkly Business posted it somewhere. That's why the 45/150 weapon (I forget the name) had a damage bonus of over a hundred at level 60, and people liked to use it to melee kite or to pull (since you pull with it, turn auto-attack off, then switch out your weapons before you get to where you're pulling to). Also for using discs with.

[Cheps]

NEW QUESTION: IF STR = ATK and ATK allows you to hit for your max amount of damage more often, would the same amount of ATK be needed at level 1 to hit for max damage every time, as a level 50? In other words(if it were possible, and I'm pretty sure its not) if a level 1 had 500 ATK and this allowed him to hit for max damage every time, would he, at level 50, hit for max damage every hit if he still had 500 ATK? Does it require more ATK at higher levels to be able to hit for max damage more often, or does it remain the same? If anyone has any information regarding this, please share! :)

From what I remember from live, your ATK is checked against mob AC in the formula. So basically, if you have ATK much higher than mob AC you will deal max damage very often (like vs green mob), if it's much lower you will deal 1 damage very often (like when you are lvl 50 and train a weapon skill that is very low, your ATK is very low).

So if your ATK is close to the mob AC, it can make quite a good difference. Of course it's only a part of the formula and it's more complicated. Plus I'm not sure how it is on this server.

[odizzido]

levels 1-9 - damage cap is 20
levels 10-19 - damage cap is 40
20+ - lifted, can do 2x weap damage or more based on class

on live. On this server it's not true and just 2Xdmg until your str can raise it or you start getting bonus damage on the weapon. Unless they have recently changed it.

With 102str you won't be seeing any extra dmg from str for quite some time.

[Estu]

There's definitely a damage cap on this server for lower levels. I don't know what it is exactly except that for 1-9 it's 20.

[Tappin]

More great information, Cheps! I'm starting to understand a lot more about how melee damage works.

Does anyone have any more information regarding ATK. One thing I'm curious about is why equipping a weapon increases your ATK. I wonder if this happens for a monk aswell, if their hand to hand is maxed out. Something else to test. I guess since monk's fists attack/delay improve with levels, the ATK would go up or down depending on if the weapon was better or worse than their current fist stats.

But for other classes... do weapons increase ATK only because the weapon is better than their hand-to-hand skill? Does anyone know?

Another thing I'm curious about is... Does STR, before level 28, affect SKILLS.. like backstab, tiger claw, etc? Do weapons effect how much damage skills do?
EDIT:I just got a shaman STR buff and my BS highest damage did not change. With my dagger(8 damage) its still 32. And to answer the other question, I switched to my harpoon(9 damage) and I can BS for 36. So 1 weapon damage is allowing me to hit for 4 more damage with BS. So yes, weapon damage does effect skill damage(news to me!).

Thanks again to everyone who has already posted information!

[Tappin]

on live. On this server it's not true and just 2Xdmg until your str can raise it or you start getting bonus damage on the weapon. Unless they have recently changed it.

With 102str you won't be seeing any extra dmg from str for quite some time.

Is the level at which you start getting STR and bonus damage level 28?

There's definitely a damage cap on this server for lower levels. I don't know what it is exactly except that for 1-9 it's 20.

Yeah, 1-9 its 20.. Did a lot of testing today... auto swings from level until level 3 with a sword that had 20 damage, and I never did more than 20 damage.

I haven't tested a 2h weapon from 10-20, but don't recall ever seeing anyone hit for more than 40 before level 20, so I'm pretty sure that 40 is the cap, like everyone else has already said.

On another note, I just got a STR buff from a level 49 Shaman, and I can easily confirm now that higher ATK does certainly increase your chance for hitting your max amount of damage more often. But I do not see a change in the amount of damage that BS does, or any other attacks for that matter. This is a great confirmation. This kind of answers one of the last questions I asked, about STR affecting skill damage(at least pre-28(if that is the right level)).

[FireEmblem86]

Does anyone have any more information regarding ATK. One thing I'm curious about is why equipping a weapon increases your ATK.

Weapon skill helps to determine your ATK. If you equip a weapon that you have high skill in, you're going to get better ATK than a weapon you don't have high skill in.

Additionally, the damage or delay on a weapon doesn't change that. As long as the weapon doesn't have any stats modifying your attack stat, you will have the same atk with any 1hs weapon, with any 2hb weapon, etc.

[Tappin]

Weapon skill helps to determine your ATK. If you equip a weapon that you have high skill in, you're going to get better ATK than a weapon you don't have high skill in.

Additionally, the damage or delay on a weapon doesn't change that. As long as the weapon doesn't have any stats modifying your attack stat, you will have the same atk with any 1hs weapon, with any 2hb weapon, etc.

I see, thank you :)

So to clarify: The actual weapon itself(assuming it has no ATK/STR modifier) will not change your ATK stat if your skill with each of those weapons are equal.
EDIT: I keep finding ways to answer these questions before someone else gets back to them, hehe. I switch between Jambiya(dagger) and Polished Steel Dirk and neither lose or gain ATK. So that answers that question.

So, if a level 10 monk has his hand-to-hand and 1hb skills maxed and equipped a black enamled mace over his fists would not gain or lose any ATK, right?

[Cheps]

But for other classes... do weapons increase ATK only because the weapon is better than their hand-to-hand skill? Does anyone know?


That's true. Your ATK raises when you equip a weapon because the weapon skill is higher than the hand to hand skill. The only ways to raise your damage:
- get a better weapon (better ratio)
- get a haste (1 item and 1 spell/song)
- get more str, cap at 255
- get more ATK, some buffs give you ATK (wolf worm), not sure if there are items with +ATK before kunark (maybe god loot?)
- get more dex if your weapon procs
- train your weapon/offense skills

As for backstab, the max damage is based on the damage of your weapon. That's why a rogue may want to use a weapon with a high damage, even if the ratio is not that great. Have to find the right balance.

[Zyth]

I don't know if anyone touched on this, perhaps it is common knowledge. But does anyone know what the damage formula is for priests and pure casters? I've been using a 9 damage weapon on my cleric since the mid teens (mid twenties now) and no matter what my strength is I am still only hitting for 18 at the most.

Are priests and casters always limited to the dmg*2 formula with no other bonus?

[Tappin]

I don't know if anyone touched on this, perhaps it is common knowledge. But does anyone know what the damage formula is for priests and pure casters? I've been using a 9 damage weapon on my cleric since the mid teens (mid twenties now) and no matter what my strength is I am still only hitting for 18 at the most.

Are priests and casters always limited to the dmg*2 formula with no other bonus?

It's probably the same as melee classes I would assume. In that case, you will start to see a damage increase at level 28.

[Messianic]

on live. On this server it's not true and just 2Xdmg until your str can raise it or you start getting bonus damage on the weapon. Unless they have recently changed it.

With 102str you won't be seeing any extra dmg from str for quite some time.

It's how I said on this server; I know from experience. My 2handed weapon did 20 until 10, when it started to do 40. My shaman did 20 with a 2hb until 10, when it started to do 2x weapon damage (since the 2x weapon damage did not exceed 40).

[Tappin]

That's true. Your ATK raises when you equip a weapon because the weapon skill is higher than the hand to hand skill. The only ways to raise your damage:
- get a better weapon (better ratio)
- get a haste (1 item and 1 spell/song)
- get more str, cap at 255
- get more ATK, some buffs give you ATK (wolf worm), not sure if there are items with +ATK before kunark (maybe god loot?)
- get more dex if your weapon procs
- train your weapon/offense skills

As for backstab, the max damage is based on the damage of your weapon. That's why a rogue may want to use a weapon with a high damage, even if the ratio is not that great. Have to find the right balance.

Tested this a bit more last night... skills and weapons. I had a weapon that had damage of 7, a weapon with damage of 8 and a weapon with damage of 9. Each weapon caused my BS to hit for 4 damage higher than the previous. Not sure if this scales more later or.. or if 1 weapon damage = 4 "skill damage" all the time.. and I'm not sure how it works for other classes either. I need to get 2 more levels on my monk to get my fists to 7/36. If 1 damage = 4 "skill damage"... than my fists would be doing 4 less damage than my maces(8 damage) and at level 25 my fists would be doing 4 more damage than my maces... on skills.

[warrioman]

STR indeed affects max hit and average hit. Try loading a low level character to 255 STR. You'll be doing more than 2x weapon damage before level 28

[Tappin]

STR indeed affects max hit and average hit. Try loading a low level character to 255 STR. You'll be doing more than 2x weapon damage before level 28

So you get a STR damage bonus before 28? That's awesome news... I need someway to test this out...