Bards & the role(s) they play

[ECDubz]

Hey guys i wanted to make another quick post asking about bards. Now that i have the gear I need in mind its time to start thinking about the roles I will need to fill in a group setting. I myself admit that i haven't grouped very much outside of swarm kiting and now that I am 39 I need to start thinking of how i will mesh in groups once i hit the 50's.

My question is, what role will i need to fill? I know that groups don't like bard DPS they mainly want them for utility songs. Now I understand that i will be equipping weapons and DPS'ing with the other damage chunkers out there but i want to be clear on my song choices and what situations call for me to take action and charm/mez things. Should I be on the lookout for things getting out of control even with a chanter and then /stopsong and cast AOE mez? Should i be charm DPS'ing or is that typically a no no.

Downtime will obviously be reserved for regen/manasong and thats fine but i'm merely asking am I just going to twist or should i always be ready to jump and get some CC action going. Let me know you guy's thoughts on bards and what they bring to the table in groups specifically.

[Daldaen]

Bards role is dependant on the group makeup they are in. So in short, be ready to fit basically every role except DPS.

Bards can tank using Snare/Slow song to hold aggro if they have a decent healer
Bards can pull using Lulls, Mezzes, Snares and Charm to split rooms
Bards can help keep groups active by twisting HP Regen, Mana Song, Haste (if no haster in group or they're bad at maintaining it) and DS to increase DPS

Help on multi pulls by charming extra mobs and utilizing them as extra DPS and re-charm or mez when charm breaks. (Let enchanter know you're doing this if there is a chanter grouping with you. Some get salty when you charm and they "waste" mana mezzing it... Noobs who don't use level 4 mez)

If you already have a tank tanking, a monk pulling and an enchanter mezzing, basically keep songs going that help the group conserve mana and increase DPS (HP Regen, Mana Regen, DS, ATK songs, Resist songs if caster mobs pulled). In a group like this where you aren't tank, puller or CC, basically you just fill in as needed. Either when one AFKs or dies or on large pulls/trains.

AE Mez won't work well at 50s, I'd suggest using single mez.

Pro bards charm annoying Mage/Necromancer/Enchanter mobs because it instantly kills their pet.

Your song setup will change as required based on your group but you'll likely always want:

HP Regen
Mana Song
Single Mez
Charm
Snare/Slow

Last three cycling based on what you're doing. When pulling you'll want lull/Selos (if outside), when Tanking you may want a 2nd Regen/rune song and maybe DS. When support you may want ATK/DS songs.

[ECDubz]

Bards role is dependant on the group makeup they are in. So in short, be ready to fit basically every role except DPS.

Bards can tank using Snare/Slow song to hold aggro if they have a decent healer
Bards can pull using Lulls, Mezzes, Snares and Charm to split rooms
Bards can help keep groups active by twisting HP Regen, Mana Song, Haste (if no haster in group or they're bad at maintaining it) and DS to increase DPS

Help on multi pulls by charming extra mobs and utilizing them as extra DPS and re-charm or mez when charm breaks. (Let enchanter know you're doing this if there is a chanter grouping with you. Some get salty when you charm and they "waste" mana mezzing it... Noobs who don't use level 4 mez)

If you already have a tank tanking, a monk pulling and an enchanter mezzing, basically keep songs going that help the group conserve mana and increase DPS (HP Regen, Mana Regen, DS, ATK songs, Resist songs if caster mobs pulled). In a group like this where you aren't tank, puller or CC, basically you just fill in as needed. Either when one AFKs or dies or on large pulls/trains.

AE Mez won't work well at 50s, I'd suggest using single mez.

Pro bards charm annoying Mage/Necromancer/Enchanter mobs because it instantly kills their pet.

Your song setup will change as required based on your group but you'll likely always want:

HP Regen
Mana Song
Single Mez
Charm
Snare/Slow

Last three cycling based on what you're doing. When pulling you'll want lull/Selos (if outside), when Tanking you may want a 2nd Regen/rune song and maybe DS. When support you may want ATK/DS songs.

This is exactly what i was looking for. Thanks so much ill work on every one of these strategies and working on identifying which role I need to fill when i group.

[worch]

I mostly agree with the advice there from Daldaen. Bards are the most flexible class and can fill any role, so it comes down to the bard determining what role will best suit the group makeup and situation.

Bards aren't going to match the DPS of a hasted enchanter pet, but the right situation where your group needs DPS, you can absolutely fill in that role. HS is a great example. Charm a SK and have it attack another SK. You've already done 2 HTs (~1k damage) before your group even begins to DPS. Continue charming the extra mob while twisting your 3 chants for DPS during the fight. Or charm that ice comet caster, and land 2-3 big nukes during the fight, like a wizard. Bards have a lot of tools, don't be afraid to experiment with them.

I often hear groups prefer monks pull, but that's an area that bards excel in. After leveling a monk and bard to 60, I'd prefer pulling as a bard over monk almost always. In some rare situations, I'd prefer pulling as a monk e.g. in an unfamiliar area where I could accidentally pull too many mobs to cc. A monk wastes time FD splitting, whereas a bard simply lulls and pulls. Monks have to worry about nukes breaking FD. Not a problem with bards, just charm that caster and have it nuke the 2nd mob you're pulling for DPS (and it saves your tank from taking those nukes). Harm touches? Again, easy to deal with as a bard.

Almost every level, bards get a completely new song, unlike other classes where the majority of spells are upgrades. Consequently, every level something new is added to your toolbelt. You'll be changing your spell bar loadout up until lvl 60. And you'll do it again when you get your epic, which will change the effectiveness of many tools on your toolbelt. That constantly evolving flexibility makes the class fun for me to level up. With that said, keep in mind that some role will only be possible once you have the right tools.

Should I be on the lookout for things getting out of control even with a chanter and then /stopsong and cast AOE mez? Should i be charm DPS'ing or is that typically a no no.

Unfortunately, aoe mez is one of the few songs that lose usefullness. It has a level cap of lvl ~30, so you're going to get 100% resists on it at some point during your mid levels. Before that point, however, it can be situationally useful. However, since it only lasts 1 tick, I'd generally prefer a single target mez as it will allow you to twist other songs while mezing.

Charm DPS'ing is one of the overlooked abilities of a bard. I'll almost always charm DPS since I'm the one pulling and can control the pace and direction of the group. Of course, you'll need to communicate with your group what you are charming because it can otherwise become an issue. For example, players could dot/cc your pet causing it to attack that player, and if said player has his own pet, it will begin attacking you. Or mage/necro/ench can have their pet attack yours, causing their pet to attack you once your charm breaks (can get deadly with an enchanter's hasted dual wielding pet). So, again, do what best suits the group makeup. If your group can handle charmed DPS, go for it.

[falkun]

As Daldaen says, bards can be anything except DPS and main healer. They can keep aggro well at L60, but you'll likely want a beefier tank (pal, SK, war) to keep your healer happy.

After L32, you will ALWAYS play mana song in a group. The L55 mana song is MUCH better than the L32, but both have their place on a 60 bard's spell bar.

My main group songs:
1) mana
2) haste
3) STR or resists or DS
4) Slow (until the L60 slow which lasts longer than 18seconds)

Main pulling songs:
1) lull
2) snare
3) mez
4) charm

Main CC songs:
1) lull (no aggro > mezzing)
2) charm (charm = DPS, mez != DPS)
3) mez

In a group I can haste, mana, pull, CC, and slow, although I prefer to ship one or more of those tasks off to another support (sham/enc) if I can. You will ALWAYS be doing mana, and you should pull over the monk (it makes you a better player and in 95+% of camps lull/charm > FD). Learn your group's kill speed and learn to chain pull. Get a Singing Steel Helm at L45 and learn how to eyeball pull effectively.

[ECDubz]

Im curious now, when a pull goes to the crappers and its a large stinky crap. What is your first go-to? Charm or Single Mez. Once your down to Single Mez'ing are you going to risk a 5 mob twist or do you usually keep it to 3 or 4? Or maybe 3 with a charm as your 4th? Just purely curiosity hitting me on this question

[SamwiseRed]

wish bards had over haste, many bards dont realize our hastes dont stack with spell haste. I know some of the haste songs provide stat buffs but I am still on the fence on whether they are worth twisting when a haster is in the party. Seems like a hit a lvl 32 mana song would be more efficient.

[falkun]

I don't run max haste if we have another haster, I usually swap in McVaxius' for STR+DS in that case.

If a pull goes south, then its probably because I've planned wrong. But let's assume you pull 3 while the trio of spawns in camp also repop. Now you've got 6 mobs. Charm cannot be overwritten by itself, so you have to wait an additional song, unlike mez (I usually have to include mez in my 4-song twist, but charm I sing 4 songs and charm on the 5th so charm has a chance to wear off). The tank is tanking one, 5 mobs left. Charm one, send it on another, 3 mobs left. Mez all three, mana song once, then start remezzing. When charm breaks, charm the one your original charm target was killing, send it on your previous charm (alternating charm target). Keep the other 3 mezzed. As your group kills the first, the tank should swap to one of the two that's not charmed, leaving the 3 mezzed alone. As the group kills the second, have them switch to the third non-mezzed. Now charm one of the 3 mezzed and keep the other 2 mezzed. Keep the 4th (first of 3 mezzed) charmed while you kill #3 (last non-mezzed). Charming will wipe out the MASSIVE aggro you've built up keeping mobs mezzed. As your group kills another target, start swapping out mezzing the next target to charming the next target. As mentioned, this is important to minimize aggro build up from continuous mezzing (bard mez does not mem blur like ENC mez does, if you are not using the L4 mez on an ENC you are doing it wrong).

[Sinadin]

Get a Singing Steel Helm at L45 and learn how to eyeball pull effectively.


please enlighten me - the level of the summoned eye is 1?? how can you pull with it effectively?

[Adcid]

wish bards had over haste, many bards dont realize our hastes dont stack with spell haste.

Seems to me the bards role in a group is to fill an empty role within the group.

Missing slow/haste?

Missing CC?

Missing DPS (lol!)?


The Bard provides utility to groups that allows for more flexibility when looking for other classes. A bard could fill the role of a puller, or a slower/CC, or mana regen/stat buffs.

Hell, Bind wound + healing song replaces a cleric IMO!

Plus bards wear plate = tankage! Keep your slow song on the mob while doing melee DPS and see who can pull the mob off you!!!

[zanderklocke]

please enlighten me - the level of the summoned eye is 1?? how can you pull with it effectively?

The eye of zomm more or less aggros anything in range of it.

Be careful where you use it because you can create some huge trains by aggroing shit through walls.

My favorite place in the game to use the Eye of Zomm is the bar/chef area of Sebilis. I do one regular clear of the area by pulling without the eye. Then when mobs are repopping, I send out the eye to aggro mobs while I stay in camp and play songs. It's a ton of fun.

[astuce999]

Great thread!

Very informative. A couple of things to add because as a bard that's what I do!

DPS: People are told bards have crappy dps. It is a false generalization. Bards have incredibly low melee dps. My level 20 warrior does more melee dps than my 60 epic'ed bard. However, if bards are asked to play a dps role, they can.

The chant dots with a drum (as well as bereavement and assonance at higher levels) can have a bard do 60+ dps consistently. If you double pull and charm on inc as well it is extra damage that adds up very fast.

Tanking : If a bard wants to keep aggro, no one can stop him. Altough bard defensive is not as high as other classes, equipping lots of HP/AC gear, including a shield will help a lot. One thing bards can do is not even turn attack on, reducing ripostes from the mobs. At 60 I tank Guardian Wurms routinely singing lvl 23 chains x3 and mana song x1 without attacking.

cheers!

Astuce

[Tenlaar]

Tanking with my bard is where I have the most fun in EQ, period. I am geared for HP first, resists second, and AC as an afterthought basically. I started tanking in seb and the hole at level 54. A bardtank, cleric, shaman, and 3x DPS is a meatgrinder of a group. I'm not quite 60 yet and with both sets of buffs I am well over 3k hp, varying by the levels of cleric and shaman of course. If one of those DPS is an enchanter you are REALLY in business.

A bard might take a little more healing than a warrior/knight, but you are also bringing the best mana regen in the game (which stacks with clarity) so I feel like it balances out pretty well. And you are bringing a toolset that no other tank can match in pulling utility, CC, and even DPS using charm.

[Cherry23]

Bards can not mezz or charm high end content, their haste and slow is not as good as a shaman or enchanter which almost evey high end group has one of... You can't use run speed indoors...

They have pulling ability and mana regen. Not much else. They are as bad as rangers at high end but fun when levelling

[Taminy]

Bards can not mezz or charm high end content, their haste and slow is not as good as a shaman or enchanter which almost evey high end group has one of... You can't use run speed indoors...

They have pulling ability and mana regen. Not much else. They are as bad as rangers at high end but fun when levelling

Relatively useful to have a lot of bards at a raid though - which you can't really say for certain classes especially enchanters, druids, shamans, or knights (need 1 of each, maybe 2).

[falkun]

Bards can not mezz or charm high end content, their haste and slow is not as good as a shaman or enchanter which almost evey high end group has one of... You can't use run speed indoors...

They have pulling ability and mana regen. Not much else. They are as bad as rangers at high end but fun when levelling

With Ervaj's line, non-epic bards now have better haste than shaman (55 vs 50%). Also, epic'd bards have had better haste than shaman since Kunark (60%, 70% with ervaj). You could also argue their pulling ability is not as good as a monk's yet that's not strictly true either. And as Astuce pointed out, bard song DPS is respectable. Bard slow is also the single best snare in the game.

We also have unparalleled resist buffs, an unresistable debuff, group-wide DA, we've had eyeball pulling since Kunark (lol @ holgresh camp), among many other tools in our toolbox. Bards are still quite valuable in almost every raid composition: DS/epic proc for tank+spank, resists for resist fights, melee buffs for burn fights, mana batteries for endurance fights, etc.

If you think bard's are one-trick ponies, you do not understand the class.