Archery

[ghost182]

If I have max dex, STR, a windstriker bow, max haste, top arrows, and am squeezing call of the flame and the other quick cast nuke between shots, with double dmg bonus applying and a good amount of crits. Will my damage output be.... Respectable?

[eqgmrdbz]

LoL, your ideal setup is going to be after Velious come out. For max Archery, get your epics or something comparable to 40% haste, now if you have a good guild go do the sky quest for Dark Cloak of the Sky, that is an unlimited 50% haste. So now you have 90% haste, combine that with Fleeting quiver 60% bow haste and the best bow you can get your hands on, which is probably the Windstriker, and you will be a Archery machine. Well as good as you can get, but probably never going to be close to how it is with AA's.

[jolanar]

Depends on what you consider respectable. In a situation where you can't melee any dps better than no dps.

[Cecily]

LoL, your ideal setup is going to be after Velious come out. For max Archery, get your epics or something comparable to 40% haste, now if you have a good guild go do the sky quest for Dark Cloak of the Sky, that is an unlimited 50% haste. So now you have 90% haste, combine that with Fleeting quiver 60% bow haste and the best bow you can get your hands on, which is probably the Windstriker, and you will be a Archery machine. Well as good as you can get, but probably never going to be close to how it is with AA's.

*smacks your hand* No worn haste, no. No! Bad advice. That's a bad poster. No.

Just spell haste (cloak) + quiver haste for bows. OP, Fleeting quiver + VoG and trueshot with a striker is probably gonna be decent dps, yes. I don't know how much of Velious raiding is gonna be belly casters (probably most or all) so your quick nukes won't do much of anything while archerying.

[Ciroco]

Wind Saber should be better DPS than Windstriker if you she'll out the cash for good arrows.

[ghost182]

Wind Saber should be better DPS than Windstriker if you she'll out the cash for good arrows.

Thats a much lower damage weapon, even if a better ratio, wouldn't you not be taking advantage of the double damage and critical strike bonus? If someone were to do the math i would wage money that when you factor in double damage and crit the windstriker is probably the best in game, and in velious? also slower means less arrows which is a nice bonus, but regardless just interested in maximizing archery damage.

[Ciroco]

Why would double damage and crit affect relative damage? They have the same effect on all bows.

[Colgate]

with the way arrow damage works, faster bows will do way more damage than slower ones, but it'll be super annoying to burn through good arrows that quickly

[Cecily]

So are you doing (arrow dmg + bow dmg) / delay to determine ratio?

Would make Windsaber .954 vs Windstriker .883 w/ 8 dmg arrows.

[Pint]

If you're using a windstriker on a raid mob with max dex you're being a bad person

[Colgate]

arrows work like a damage bonus

pretty sure it's arrow damage * 3 added to your hit

so a 3 damage arrow would add 9 damage to the hit

aka why a faster bow is better

[ghost182]

what type of critical strike chance do we have when our dex is max?

What type of dps can these 2 bows, and the velium primal war bow( forget name ) put out taking into account:

1. double damage bonus (lets just assume we are able to get double on every shot) 2. critical strikes? 3. Maximem STR and Dex 4. 8 damage arrows

how do you factor critical strikes and double damage in? does it include the arrow damage or does that get added on after? how does STR and attack power factor into your damage?

[Ciroco]

There aren't simple answers to most of your questions; we don't know the inner workings of archery damage calculations well enough to just plug in numbers and spit out a value.

That being said:
-Crit chance should be identical to a Warrior's melee crit chance
-Strength has no impact on ranged damage
-Arrow damage, as far as I know, is added directly to bow damage before anything else
-Even with the perfect conditions you listed, archery damage will not be comparable to melee damage

[Cecily]

Being able to do some damage out of AE range for 2 mins has an appeal to it. Really wish I got to mess around on beta w/ my ranger to get an idea of what to expect from trueshot discipline.

[Ciroco]

Yeah, that's the downside to Wind Saber. I don't think you can get outside of AE range with it.

[Cecily]

If you're using a windstriker on a raid mob with max dex you're being a bad person

If the stun is an issue just click BFG when the dragon comes for you, problem solved.

[Pint]

If the stun is an issue just click BFG when the dragon comes for you, problem solved.

i hadnt thought of employing this strategy, brilliant

[ghost182]

There aren't simple answers to most of your questions; we don't know the inner workings of archery damage calculations well enough to just plug in numbers and spit out a value.

That being said:
-Crit chance should be identical to a Warrior's melee crit chance
-Strength has no impact on ranged damage
-Arrow damage, as far as I know, is added directly to bow damage before anything else
-Even with the perfect conditions you listed, archery damage will not be comparable to melee damage

Never thought archery > melee. i'm only looking to understand how archery works here.

Specifically, I don't understand how the double damage bonus works. If windstriker is a 45/60 does that mean its a 90/60? if i have 255 dex, how does that actually affect the 45 damage? does attack rating also and if so how? would the double damage apply after taking my dex and attack into account? arrows? does the critical strike bonus damage include the double damage? or does the double damage double the crit?

i'm just not sure, and want to better understand this aspect of my class. there must be some player out there that has cracked the secret code to how archery works?

teach me.

[Cecily]

there must be some player out there that has cracked the secret code to how archery works?

teach me.

The first step to optimizing damage with a Windstriker is obtaining one. This actually works with any bow.
High damage arrows. Cap dex. Fleeting quiver. Spell haste. +atk spells and effects. That's it.
And you'll probably be disappointed. Archery is simply supplemental, situational damage.

[Ciroco]

Double damage should be the final multiplier on the damage calculation. So no, you can't just double the damage of the bow itself. One caveat though, I submitted a bug report a while ago for double damage shots doing odd numbered damage, which is weird (Edit: confirmed this is still happening).

Dexterity affects ranged damage the same way strength affects melee damage. It's not a simple calculation to determine exactly how much DPS that adds to any given bow.

Yes, attack matters. Again, I can't calculate exactly how.

[Cecily]

That's mainly because the atk value displayed in game reflects STR based (melee) atk. There's no display for ranged atk values. Really, it's just more is better. Is it worth full gearing for dex? Probably not, but dex is a great ranger stat that I wish I had more of.

[Tremonte]

The way it worked on Live, arrow damage is additive to bow damage, divided by delay for ratio, quiver haste stacks with spell/worn haste, and double damage is calculated at the time the shot is fired, pending the NPC no movement, no root check passes. Having an odd number for double damage isn't a bug. It's due to decimal rounding. If you did 222.7 damage, it displays as 223, etc.

Pre-AA's, archery is lackluster and mostly a utility for pulling and the occasional solo expedition. Trueshot is great on a burn, but you want to ignore ratio, and go for the highest base damage bow when you use it.

Sadly, I don't think we will see rangers come to their full potential with a bow on this server without Endless Quiver and Archery Mastery.

[Ciroco]

Having an odd number for double damage isn't a bug. It's due to decimal rounding. If you did 222.7 damage, it displays as 223, etc.

Do you have any proof of this? I can't find a single example from live, and I am almost positive that it was not possible.

Trueshot is great on a burn, but you want to ignore ratio, and go for the highest base damage bow when you use it.

...why?

[eqgmrdbz]

Haste affects bow delay the same way it effects melee.

But archery uses one more kind of haste, stacking with the others : quiver haste (QH). It follows the same rules than all the other kinds of haste : only the best QH is used if more than one apply. To have a QH, you just need to have a Weight Reducing quiver in your inventory.

I always thought worn haste affected bows, not sure what Cecily means by it doesn't. That's a statement from the wiki, bows are affected just like regular melee, so having worn haste, spell haste, and quiver is the best scenario.

[Cecily]

I always thought worn haste affected bows, not sure what Cecily means by it doesn't.

I mean it doesn't.

[Cecily]

Windstriker w/ 40% worn haste (Swiftwind)
[Fri Jun 19 15:17:43 2015] You hit a bat for 233 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 15:17:49 2015] You hit a giant wasp drone for 203 points of damage.
6 second delay

Windstriker w/o worn haste
[Fri Jun 19 15:21:06 2015] You hit a giant wasp drone for 107 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 15:21:12 2015] You hit a bat for 59 points of damage.
6 second delay

Windstriker w/ 50% spell haste (Dark Cloak of the Sky)
[Fri Jun 19 15:43:33 2015] You hit orc legionnaire for 107 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 15:43:37 2015] You hit orc legionnaire for 83 points of damage.
4 second delay

[Ennewi]

Windstriker w/ 40% worn haste (Swiftwind)
[Fri Jun 19 15:17:43 2015] You hit a bat for 233 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 15:17:49 2015] You hit a giant wasp drone for 203 points of damage.
6 second delay

Windstriker w/o worn haste
[Fri Jun 19 15:21:06 2015] You hit a giant wasp drone for 107 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 15:21:12 2015] You hit a bat for 59 points of damage.
6 second delay

Windstriker w/ 50% spell haste (Dark Cloak of the Sky)
[Fri Jun 19 15:43:33 2015] You hit orc legionnaire for 107 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 15:43:37 2015] You hit orc legionnaire for 83 points of damage.
4 second delay

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w663/level1undercon/195nhikg6hiunpng_zpsomjtyti6.png (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/level1undercon/media/195nhikg6hiunpng_zpsomjtyti6.png.html)

[Ciroco]

That's a massive bug, no?

[Cecily]

Hmm. I'm not sure now tbh. Consensus on the alla fleeting quiver page seems to be that haste items do work for bows.
Yeah that might be worth a bug report.

[Ennewi]

I'm not fluent in MRW, come on use your words like a normal person.

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w663/level1undercon/tt3_zpsamm1jq8z.jpg (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/level1undercon/media/tt3_zpsamm1jq8z.jpg.html)

[Cecily]

http://i.imgur.com/rUsuloc.gif

[Tremonte]

That is a bug. Worn haste should stack for archery. Do you have another item you can check with to make sure it's not an issue with Swiftwind?

Quiver haste is only 1/3 of it's WR roughly. So, a fleeting quiver would only give 20% bow haste.

Here is the actual code the game uses to calculate haste as of now.

Haste is calculated in zone/client_mods.cpp:

Code:
1029 int Client::CalcHaste() {
1030 int h = spellbonuses.haste + spellbonuses.hastetype2 + itembonuses.haste;
1031 int cap = 0;
1032 int level = GetLevel();
1033 /*
1034 if(disc_inuse == discBlindingSpeed) {
1035 if(!disc_elapse.Check(false)) {
1036 h += 20; //this ammount is completely unknown
1037 } else {
1038 disc_inuse = discNone;
1039 }
1040 } */
1041
1042 if(level < 30) {
1043 cap = 50;
1044 } else if(level < 50) {
1045 cap = 74;
1046 } else if(level < 55) {
1047 cap = 84;
1048 } else if(level < 60) {
1049 cap = 94;
1050 } else {
1051 cap = 100;
1052 }
1053
1054
1055 if(h > cap) h = cap;
1056
1057 h += spellbonuses.hastetype3;
1058 h += ExtraHaste; //GM granted haste.
1059
1060 Haste = h;
1061 return(Haste);
1062 }

As you can see, there is nothing for quivers at the moment.

As for the question on decimal rounding on weapon damage, there was a long debate on the eq station forum quite a long time ago that was answered by a dev, and talked how some numbers such as damage displayed were rounded to the nearest whole, while other calculations truncated the decimal, such as weapon ratio, AC and I believe attack. This post was also on the Steelwarrior site, but unfortunately both of the links are now defunct. I remember seeing various posts mentioning the rounding here as well.

To answer the question about why you want the highest base damage bow when using Trueshot, it's simply because bows do not get a damage bonus, and RNG will screw you over more than not. So, when you have a higher minimum hit consistently for a limited duration, the weapon will DPS higher, whereas a lower ratio weapon will out DPS over an extended time.

We did an experiment a long time ago over on the rangers glade before AA's were introduced and found more than not, a higher base damage bow would kill the higher ratio bow, when using max haste, but only during Trueshot. I'll see if I can dig up some old spreadsheets or logs.

[Cecily]

Yeah, a RBG. Testing in a sec.

[Ciroco]

That doesn't make sense. Trueshot is just a damage and accuracy mod and it affects all bows equally. It should be no different than comparing two bows without haste to two bows with haste.

[Tremonte]

That doesn't make sense. Trueshot is just a damage and accuracy mod and it affects all bows equally. It should be no different than comparing two bows without haste to two bows with haste.


Parse for yourself and see. I know it sounds backwards, but the numbers will show.

[eqgmrdbz]

Well this is getting interesting.

[Cecily]

That is a bug. Worn haste should stack for archery. Do you have another item you can check with to make sure it's not an issue with Swiftwind?

Windstriker w/ RBG (27%)

[Fri Jun 19 17:15:24 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 72 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:15:30 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 66 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:15:36 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 72 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:15:43 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 64 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:15:49 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 93 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:15:55 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 63 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:16:01 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 87 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:16:07 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 35 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:16:13 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 25 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 19 17:16:19 2015] You hit a thought spoiler for 81 points of damage.

Looks like a 6 sec delay for all of those shots besides one. So no difference for 0%, 27%, 40% worn haste on bow shots.

[eqgmrdbz]

"I proclaim shenanigans" !

[Tremonte]

Something is definitely not right with that. Worn haste has always affected archery for as long as I can remember. Anyone else seeing this issue?

[Ciroco]

Parse for yourself and see. I know it sounds backwards, but the numbers will show.

Kinda hard to parse without the discipline!

[Cecily]

So bows have been lacking worn haste mod for 5 years and no one has said anything? I always just assumed it was supposed to be like that, based off one post on that fleeting quiver page that no one else seemed to agree with looking at it again. Yeah, let's get this working so I can self haste my bow 90% now, 100% in Velious. 3 sec striker shots sound amazing.

[fennixad]

We will see many rangers bow kitting wurms in velious to get 55-60 spells

[YendorLootmonkey]

damn it so much.

Best i can find right now is a Oct 2001 post referencing "both types of haste (i.e. worn and spell)" for bows:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=6836#m100288789021516

[Tremonte]

Here is a spreadsheet that lists various haste combinations you could use, along with a few parses for archery.

Note: This is based from 2012, includes some AA modifiers and Type 3 haste items(overhaste), which we do not have on P99, but will show how stacking works and the results.

Yes, Rangers do insane damage with archery now and can actually hit the minimum allowed delay with bows. I have an end game ranger on Bertox, and it's just nuts how well we solo and power level. Makes bards blush. ;)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zi0MfncuuiUX3q28h_Ieqt5gc33wEp4sN7sLMJo6mEI/edit#gid=1

[eqgmrdbz]

So, has the bug report been posted or do we just wait for a reply from a dev?

[Technique]

My guess, if this is happening, its from how they changed items to not show the haste percent. That could break the client from adjusting the button refresh.

I do not know how they made those classic adjustments.

This will take some work to investigate and fix.

H

[Cecily]

So this thread turned into a backstab dps bug, nice.

[Tremonte]

A temporary fix would be to allow Rangers, and rangers only to use autofire until this is fixed. Yeah, "not classic" , but so is the fact it isn't working.

[mystang89]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haynar View Post
My guess, if this is happening, its from how they changed items to not show the haste percent. That could break the client from adjusting the button refresh.

I do not know how they made those classic adjustments.

This will take some work to investigate and fix.

H


Not sure how long ago this quote was made but had this been lost to time or is it something that is still on the table?

[eqgmrdbz]

Dammit!, can Rangers get a break....it's like going into battle with your bow stuck on semi-auto.

[mystang89]

I wouldn't mind the /auto fire, i've already made that clear, but if you bind the ranged hotkey to a button then spamming that button acts the same. However, getting haste working correctly should be something that after 4 years of kunark being out got fixed.

Can we get some info on how this is coming along please? Can we expect a fix when velious released?

[Thulack]

Really while its nice this bug was found it really doesnt make a large difference in the end of things. Archery STILL isnt going to viable vs melee unless you are using trueshot. And to answer original OP. You can have all those things and archery still wont come close to melee. Respectable? maybe but optimal? Never

[eqgmrdbz]

ThulackReally while its nice this bug was found it really doesnt make a large difference in the end of things. Archery STILL isnt going to viable vs melee unless you are using trueshot. And to answer original OP. You can have all those things and archery still wont come close to melee. Respectable? maybe but optimal? Never

What the hell are you talking about, Cecily already showed with 50% haste, her Windstriker went from 6 to 4 sec delay between shots, add 40% worn haste and Quiver haste, and it could go down to 2 seconds. I already said Archery was never going to be like AA's, but that doesnt mean we cant get it to respectable levels. Lets say average dmg of 100, you will be doing 1000dmg a minute the way things are now, but if this gets fixed and after Velious launch the damage would be 3000, that's a hell of an improvement.

[Ciroco]

Worn + spell + quiver haste still shouldn't be able to exceed 100% as far as I know, so 3 seconds would be the minimum with a Windstriker without overhaste.

Still, this is a big deal.

[Thulack]

Thulack

What the hell are you talking about, Cecily already showed with 50% haste, her Windstriker went from 6 to 4 sec delay between shots, add 40% worn haste and Quiver haste, and it could go down to 2 seconds. I already said Archery was never going to be like AA's, but that doesnt mean we cant get it to respectable levels. Lets say average dmg of 100, you will be doing 1000dmg a minute the way things are now, but if this gets fixed and after Velious launch the damage would be 3000, that's a hell of an improvement.

You asked if it would be respectable. I said yes. But you still arent going to use it over melee when melee is a option. If you are using archery when meleeing is a option you are just being a bad ranger. ONLY exception to this is with Trueshot running(come velious). If your only option is archery then do what you must but its never going to come close to matching melee which is what you originally asked.

[mystang89]

You asked if it would be respectable. I said yes. But you still arent going to use it over melee when melee is a option. If you are using archery when meleeing is a option you are just being a bad ranger. ONLY exception to this is with Trueshot running(come velious). If your only option is archery then do what you must but its never going to come close to matching melee which is what you originally asked.

Or you're just playing another aspect of the class the way you want to play it, not the way others want you too.

[Thulack]

Or you're just playing another aspect of the class the way you want to play it, not the way others want you too.

If 40+ other people are using their time to accomplish something damn right i'm going to use the optimal way to play a toon and not waste 40 peoples time.

[ghost182]

If 40+ other people are using their time to accomplish something damn right i'm going to use the optimal way to play a toon and not waste 40 peoples time.

sorry but do you really feel that if the wopping 2-3 rangers on a raid decided they wanted to hang back, use archery, squeeze some nukes in, and patch heal greater heals around it would change the outcome of any raid? i highly doubt that.

[Thulack]

sorry but do you really feel that if the wopping 2-3 rangers on a raid decided they wanted to hang back, use archery, squeeze some nukes in, and patch heal greater heals around it would change the outcome of any raid? i highly doubt that.

Tell that to the guild after you wipe to something at under 5%. You got 3 rangers man and your going to waste your time using archery? If you really want to be a archer ranger to play on project 2002 where you will actually have aa's and good dmg from archery. Up til Luclin Archery for a ranger is VERY situational and of not much use compared to melee in most instances.

[ghost182]

Tell that to the guild after you wipe to something at under 5%. You got 3 rangers man and your going to waste your time using archery? If you really want to be a archer ranger to play on project 2002 where you will actually have aa's and good dmg from archery. Up til Luclin Archery for a ranger is VERY situational and of not much use compared to melee in most instances.

then every ranger should re roll to rogue to best optimize melee dps if that's the end all goal, no?

[eqgmrdbz]

@ghost182

Pretty much what i think he is getting at is Rangers are worthless unless they do melee stuff. I would put the greater blame on Verant who crippled Rangers, and P99 staff who continues the crime. I'm getting all excited about being able to at least use my bow for something other than adding weight, and Thulack is being a downer. Why have any classes, lets all just become clerics, warriors, and Rogues...what a fun game that will be.

[eqgmrdbz]

Adding to my previous post, some things that will greatly improve Archery. We do not have endless quiver, so how about making arrows stack to 50 or 100, that way we would have more arrows available to shoot. And since we will be having bigger stacks, make fletching give back more than 5 arrows per attempt, let it return 20 and fix the price accordingly, that way you are not sitting there making arrows for hours. Since we do not get AA damage increases, how about increasing bow damage, or at least make Dex actually do what it's supposed to do. These are fixes that can be done and would not break the game.

[Naethyn]

I'm a 55 warrior and I solo'd one of my seb key parts with my bow, fungi, and a snare wep. Archery is great when another player (like a monk) is pulling. Shoot the mob to tank with an arrow and he immediately runs to me after a 40 damage hit and the initial aggro allows me to save taunt for when it turns to someone else.

I played a ranger for years on live and the Fleeting Quiver, while having the biggest haste actually made bows slower due to a bug with archery haste. Any bow that had a delay of under 40 would shoot slower with a Fleeting Quiver instead of a slower quiver like Tailored. Also, Bow of the Destroyer is a machine gun off the destroyer in TOV. Great headshot weapon.

[Thulack]

then every ranger should re roll to rogue to best optimize melee dps if that's the end all goal, no?

Ever wonder why i never played Thulack on raids and always played Disabled.;)

[Thulack]

@ghost182

Pretty much what i think he is getting at is Rangers are worthless unless they do melee stuff. I would put the greater blame on Verant who crippled Rangers, and P99 staff who continues the crime. I'm getting all excited about being able to at least use my bow for something other than adding weight, and Thulack is being a downer. Why have any classes, lets all just become clerics, warriors, and Rogues...what a fun game that will be.

Playing a ranger for 10 years on live yes rangers are severely crippled when it comes to archery DPS pre Luclin. Sure its situtional and better then most melee oriented classes get when it comes to ranged DPS but if you really want to be ranged DPS then you pick a wizard. If you really want to be melee dps you pick a rogue. If you want to be utility sure pick a ranger but dont then be a sub optimal ranger by using a weaker ability(archery) if meleeing is a option.

[Cecily]

Quit saying archery is bad. We know. It's also a hell of a lot better of a solo option than anything a rogue can do. Key word option. I prefer melee,
but sometimes I'm just not feeling it at 10% hp.