Rerolling from sk to pal

[holsteinrx7]

I'm rerolling from a 57 sk to a pal just before velious releases. I love my ogre, but the spellbar just isn't what I need it to be, minus fd. I'm going to miss stun immunity, slam, and fd, but I think its Worth the trade off. Am i crazy to be rerolling knights, and is the next logical step going from sk to paladin? Paladin does seem a step up in skillcap, being weaker races and no fd, with cc.

Thanks for inputs

[Danth]

Long story short, whether the change is worth it or not depends on what you're looking for. Read on for details.

I'm the opposite of you. I played Paladin for many years; after my daughter was born I switched to my Shadow Knight as my main character. First off, while comparisons between the hybrids are inevitable, I feel these two are in practice distinct enough from each other that there isn't an enormous amount of overlap. I feel the Monk and Shadow Knight overlap with each other a lot more than either overlap with the Paladin. If you basically like the SK's role but want more raw power, make a Monk.

Sticking to the topic, comparing the Shadow Knight and Paladin, I feel the Shadow Knight is generally more convenient in terms of day-to-day utility. It's easier to get around Norrath with it, easier to reach groups down inside dungeons, and generally because of that the SK has somewhat more opportunities than I ever had on any of my Paladins. These are things you may feel lack a bit on the Paladin after coming from the Shadow Knight. I like the raid role better on the SK as well. The Shadow Knight's spell book is indeed a bit thin; so's the Paladin's. Comes with the territory since you're a hybrid and not a proper caster type. I feel the SK comes into its own at very high levels, like 55+. If you aren't feeling the class at 57, you probably never will, so you're right to look elsewhere.

The Paladin remains in my mind the better group tank of the two classes. Both have in essence equivalent durability and hate generation, but the Paladin permits a greater level of defensive control and higher ability to save groupmates from their own mistakes. Shutting down spellcasting monsters can make just about any Shadow Knight green with envy. If you like tanking for group content or raid "trash" (leave the bosses for the Warriors) as the overwhelming majority of what you do online, you'll get good service from the Paladin and appreciate having more defensive tools at your disposal than you had on the Shadow Knight. The Paladin's a surprisingly specialized class and doesn't do much of anything else particularly well, so if you *don't* spend most of your time tanking for regular groups with the odd raid, I advise looking someplace else.


Danth

[Vexenu]

Agree with Danth. The SK is a more versatile and convenient class. Insta-click invis and FD are totally game-changing abilities. Throw in snare, fear and the pet and you have a lot of tricks, especially when it comes to pulling.

But the simple fact remains: you're never going to be a better group tank than an equally well-played Paladin. The Paladin has very few tricks, but in exchange he's incredibly specialized for tanking group content and helping his group run more smoothly. This is accomplished by:

1) CCing adds with Root
2) Helping split pulls with Calm/Pacify
3) Stun-locking caster mobs
4) Patch healing self and others as needed
5) Mana-free heals on between pulls with DW helm
6) Playing ghetto Cleric (Symbol/HP-AC/Rez) in groups without one
7) LoHing self or others during emergencies to prevent a wipe

It's really difficult to convey how much a well-played Paladin can add to an average group. I honestly believe that next to Bards and Enchanters, Paladins have the highest skill ceiling in Everquest when it comes to grouping, simply because you have so many opportunities to make a difference for your group. Example: Good Paladin pays attention and stuns the caster pulled into camp before it lands a nuke on the puller, Bad Paladin doesn't. Good Paladin lands a clutch LoH on the Enchanter to prevent a wipe, Bad Paladin doesn't. Good Paladin root CCs adds during the pull to keep agro off casters, Bad Paladin doesn't. Good Paladin pre-taunts mezzed mobs with Blind and Stun before breaking Mez to protect the Enchanter, Bad Paladin doesn't. Good Paladin pays attention to mob casting message and animations to properly time his stuns, Bad Paladin doesn't. Good Paladin tirelessly spams his DW helm when needed to reduce downtime, Bad Paladin doesn't.

Since bad players outnumber the good, and Paladins have such a low pop to begin with, most players have never grouped with a good Paladin, which is unfortunate, because it's a criminally underrated class. And ultimately, it's a class that really shines for players who are attentive and group-focused. So in deciding between the Paladin and the SK, the question really comes down to: do I really enjoy tanking group content and helping support the group? Or do I like tanking and pulling equally, along with having more flexibility and versatility in general? If the former, go Paladin, if the latter, go SK.

[holsteinrx7]

thanks for all the great replies.

when i was worried about lvling and making it to 55+ i went sk. just hope velious isnt so horrible to travel i will wish i had fd and invis again ;D

[Roguejm11]

Either option you choose(minus the Orge choice for your SK) I don't think you could go wrong. Hybrid tanks get a HUGE boost in Velious with new items, exp penalty going away, 2handed weapon boost, and cool down abilities. Paladin and Shadow Knight will be the kings of group tanking in all zones at pretty much all levels. Raiding included for all none boss mobs.

[holsteinrx7]

Is velious hard to travel to the point where day to day utility outweigh defensive combat paladin utility?


I'm wondering if it's densely populated dungeons with faction problems that would make the sk more luxurious as a main and alt the paladin for the challenge. That's a concern of mine.

I do have a goal of exploring new content and the sk has done a far better job than my warrior ever did.

[thewrush]

Paladin can rez! Don't forget that part.

[Danth]

Is velious hard to travel to the point where day to day utility outweigh defensive combat paladin utility?
I do have a goal of exploring new content and the sk has done a far better job than my warrior ever did.

This is something only you can answer because the value of the Paladin's defensive tools is strictly relative: Their value declines as the quality of your groupmates increases. What sort of players do you typically game with? The Paladin's at its very best in a chaotic, somewhat incompetent pick-up experience group. If you like to tank for leveling guilds or pick-up groups and often group with folks who're learning the game or their classes, you'll greatly appreciate the Paladin. On the other hand, a balanced group full of experienced players who all do their jobs properly seldom requires the full extent of the Paladin's tools.

Of the three tank classes, the Shadow Knight is always the best for sneaking in and out of places and for seeing things that the other two don't always get to see. That's something of a class perk and it's a lot more like Monks in that respect rather than like the other tank types. Since you already have this capability (your Shadow Knight is already leveled), you will not lose it if you choose to main a different class.

Danth

[Kennie]

Paladin is the better and more useful class for others in Velious. Get your SK to 60 and get some drops to twink your pally for when the xp penalty is removed in Velious and then play him!

[Roguejm11]

Kennie's suggestion is a good one, but that might mean play the SK for another 3-4 months.

[SiouxNation]

I picked Paladin for the superior group tanking. That was the sole decision for me. I think it would be fun to have a tank who can FD though.

[Kevris]

Do not underestimate the power of the Pacify line.

When Luclin was out, I'd frequently wind up having to work late and catch up to my guild inside SSRA temple. With Pacify, I could stroll all the way to Cursed, XTC, High Priest ..etc..without drawing agro from anything. it was kinda game breaking, really.

[webrunner5]

I would not even give up the ability to FD. It is a game breaker. And a SK can solo where a Pally really can't. :(

[Ando]

Since bad players outnumber the good, and Paladins have such a low pop to begin with, most players have never grouped with a good Paladin, which is unfortunate, because it's a criminally underrated class. And ultimately, it's a class that really shines for players who are attentive and group-focused.

Totally agree. I never really realized how much of a difference a paladin could make until I grouped with a good one in lower guk. It has a ton of casters, and paladin stuns/bashes on them + roots on the melees is just absolutely huge. I also can't count the number of times a well-placed LOH on the enchanter would have prevented a wipe.

Very very fun class to play in groups. Especially if there are caster mobs around.

[wormed]

Do not underestimate the power of the Pacify line.

When Luclin was out, I'd frequently wind up having to work late and catch up to my guild inside SSRA temple. With Pacify, I could stroll all the way to Cursed, XTC, High Priest ..etc..without drawing agro from anything. it was kinda game breaking, really.

Pacify doesn't work on 55+ but i guess the trash was low 50s?

[Kevris]

Pacify doesn't work on 55+ but i guess the trash was low 50s?

Yeah, it didn't work on the mobs closer to the emperor; I believe past the traps on the 3rd floor.

[webrunner5]

Pacify doesn't work on 55+ but i guess the trash was low 50s?

Other than raid mobs very few mobs in P1999 are 55 and higher. I would not dismiss Pacify because of that requirement. It is a great spell to have in the bag. :D

[Raev]

NPCs get a ~3-4 level bonus to resist pacify, and paladins generally don't have great charisma. I'd be very wary using it on anything above L50, and 53+ is probably a death sentence unless you are a beautiful (but with an ugly model!) high elf with shaman cha buffs.

Velious tanking will be very interesting. Hybrids will gradually get some big powerups, but so will the NPCs. Kunark tanking is pretty trivial from a HP/AC perspective: the mobs are easy to slow and don't hit that hard anyway. If you are hanging out in the Kael arena (400+ hitters) or Sirens (250+ hitters) or even DN (L56+ enc/necro casters IIRC) . . . . well for the first time in P1999 history, torpor shamans may no longer be the best tanks :D

[Naxi]

NPCs get a ~3-4 level bonus to resist pacify, and paladins generally don't have great charisma. I'd be very wary using it on anything above L50, and 53+ is probably a death sentence unless you are a beautiful (but with an ugly model!) high elf with shaman cha buffs.

Pff I am a handsome dwarf with terrible innate cha, but its really not hard or much effort to carry around the big +cha items and get near 200 cha as a dwarf. I also have two items that can self buff my cha, awwwww yeah.

Sure I clench my anus when trying to pacify through tough merbs, but I'd certainly say I have more luck than not on 50+ things.

[nothsa]

what items give cha buff?
clicker?

[webrunner5]

I distinctly remember that we used Pally's a lot to pull in Kael. So Pacify Has to work pretty well. Maybe not on Zek, or another mob that high, be still they got the nod over a SK or a Monk doing it on most mobs in there. :p