Knights: Decent or Garbage?

[Lune]

So I'm considering gearing out either my 54 ranger or my 20 iksar shadowknight to play this summer and to main in Velious. I love the playstyle of both classes. I find monks, rogues, and warriors to be boring, even though monks are just the all around best melee.

I was about 12 years old in 2000, and played a bit of Kunark and Luclin/PoP but somehow I missed Velious, so I don't remember much about the state of things in that expansion.

How are knights in Velious? Right now they kinda seem like crap thb. There isn't much reason to have a knight tank for you over a warrior, monk, or ranger. Sure, knights can manage agro, but they do barely any dps and mitigate only marginally better than a properly geared monk. The agro management of the other classes is more than sufficient given the dps they do, which is a tremendous asset both grouped and solo. They aren't great raid classes. Sk's have a few pulling tricks. What would be their role as trash tanks in raids is largely usurped by the widespread abuse of clicky mallets by soulless non-classic raiders.

Do you feel like knights are good tanks for a group (or will be in Velious), or would you prefer a monk or warrior? Are you enlightened enough to prefer a ranger? Can shadow knights solo anything that monks can't, using fear? Can SKs solo any cool mobs in Velious? What should I play? Which class is cuter?

[Daldaen]

The strength of any guild is determined by quality and use of their Knights.

Guilds who have solid and knowledgeable knights will crush those without.

For EXP grouping, Knights are best tanks hands down. Warriors and Monks blow at snap aggro.

[Jauna]

Paladins, from personal experience back on live will continue to be... meh. We get a neat +hp buff for casters but all melee, even other tanks will prefer the ranger atk buff. Sure we... they get more defenses, but no defense discs, no HoTs, no quick heals. Paladins will always be low tier in p99 for raiding. But for grouping, snappy agro, stuns for stunning and.. I dont even remember if they get group heals or not for velious.

paladins do not bloom until Luclin/PoP.

As for SKs, I cant remember if they get those group wide siphons/buffs or not during velious

[Swish]

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/PageMill_Images/bush_911_school.jpg http://kirkcameron.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/9-12-12-Twin-Towers-Burning.jpg

[Lune]

The strength of any guild is determined by quality and use of their Knights.

Guilds who have solid and knowledgeable knights will crush those without.

Can you or anyone else elaborate? I feel I've missed whatever this major usefulness is on raids, aside from SK pulling.

[Swish]

The strength of any guild is determined by quality and use of their Knights.

Guilds who have solid and knowledgeable knights will crush those without.

For EXP grouping, Knights are best tanks hands down. Warriors and Monks blow at snap aggro.

A L4/5 root helps such issues if they're especially struggling... thankfully in a good group you've got evading rogues, FD'ing monks, rangers that can root if they somehow get aggro.

After that you just need to watch those casters overnuking - the cleric should step up and say something (or root themselves) if there's too much overaggro :)

[Roguejm11]

I was going to comment and try to be helpful, but after reading OT's full post. I decided I won't.

[Raev]

The strength of any guild is determined by quality and use of their Knights.

Guilds who have solid and knowledgeable knights will crush those without.

For EXP grouping, Knights are best tanks hands down. Warriors and Monks blow at snap aggro.

Nice troll, Daldaen!

P.S. I borrowed Snoogan once (60 paladin w/epic) in trio for HS South. Paladin is definitely a fun group class, but I'd say she felt about the same as Sakuragi in terms of effectiveness. And Raev blows them both away of course.

[Gatorsmash_da'troll]

Greenmist epic

[Ezalor]

paladins/SKs are vastly superior group tanks and can tank every single raid mob in kunark except for a couple

[Daldaen]

Not a troll.

Excellent Knights are very rare. They make guilds great. They aren't reliant on any clickies to preform their major role. They can fufill many roles on raids.

They became stupidly OP later on once they get real defensive discs. Even in Velious they will be extremely important. As kiters, off tanks, rampage tanks. Sure they won't be main tanking AoW, hell most every warrior won't be. Nor will they tank Vulak or Vyemm, but they can hold their own against a decent amount. End game bosses not so much.

Plane of Sky, Knights are champions for basically every boss (probably not bee queen)
Plane of Hate/Growth + E/WToV armor clears, Knights are champions
Grouping, Knights are champions
Smaller trio style groups Knights are the superior tank option

Every raid mob with Rampage will be tagged by Knights and using jousting tactics you can determine which knight is taking rampage damage and prevent DPS and Clerics from taking it. Many mobs they can take it outright. Depending on the mob they can self sustain this behavior with no healer or just a torpor shaman. Or you can devote some defensive warriors and CH clerics to Rampage I guess?

Once almost every important raid mob is indoors, and bards lose their primary competitive edge in kiting, who do you think is going to kite trains or adds? You're gonna sacrifice Bards out to kite instead of their mana feeding clerics and wizards or providing resists on AEs... Yea no. Knights of course. And get ready for some epic ones on this server. Can't wait to see Kael when Statue or Tormax spawn.

If I had a pick between a baller knight, warrior, cleric, enchanter, bard or monk to join my guild, I'd pick the knight every time hands down. Monks here are all pretty bad because they've been crippled by broken sneak. Enchanters are babied with Cycle Target hotkey and most are pretty bad due to this (plus raids don't use CC much in Verrious), and warrior/cleric... Loooool (press 1-2 buttons, nice). Bard would be a good pick if knight weren't available.

Knights rule the world. People just haven't figured it out yet.

[Erati]

Eratou is Takens best kept secret.

Just wait.




Keep waiting.


Itll happen.

[Danth]

Knights aren't garbage, at least not in my eyes, but I don't think anything that changes with Velious will make a player like them if he doesn't already. The class improvements are nice, but don't seriously upset existing class balancing, so the dominant classes remain dominant. Note that the best changes for the hybrids don't even arrive until some months after Velious opens.

If you already have a 54 Ranger and don't have a strong preference for something else, leveling the Ranger seems like an obvious first choice. Nothing stops you from working up another hybrid later on.

Hybrids do fine in duos, and fine in groups. Much of the bias against them will disappear once their experience penalties are removed. Their jobs and roles in raids depend mostly on the whims of their guilds.

Danth

[Wabic]

Once almost every important raid mob is indoors, and bards lose their primary competitive edge in kiting, who do you think is going to kite trains or adds? You're gonna sacrifice Bards out to kite instead of their mana feeding clerics and wizards or providing resists on AEs... Yea no. Knights of course. And get ready for some epic ones on this server. Can't wait to see Kael when Statue or Tormax spawn.


That seems like an argument against Knights. They're useful because they're expendable?

[Daldaen]

They're useful because they are the class who can take the most hits and hold aggro while kiting indefinitely. Bards are also able to do this but in long Velious fights they are required to extend CH Chain life or increase resists/DPS.

[Wabic]

So in that case, if the knight was another bard instead... see what I'm saying?

I love knights, just being picky about your example.

[Daldaen]

So in that case, if the knight was another bard instead... see what I'm saying?

If the knight was another bard instead you'd want them in a group singing songs. If you had groups full with bards, a knight can perform the same role as the bard except the knight can take more hits and survive more random mob aggros. Paladins can heal themselves faster than a bard can regen.

Knights can also off tank adds, Paladins can serve as backup healers, SKs as pullers. Both serve well as ramp tanks. Solid speed bumps in between tank switches if you don't have weapon shield or tons of warriors.

Like a bard, they're a utility class that can morph to fit whatever raid makeup/situation you are faced with. Which is what makes them invaluable.

In the vaccuum of MathQuest, I'm sure some power gamers have a tough time justifying them when they're calculating DI/DBs and figuring out the exact /pause on their clerics CH chain and how many epic'd 60 Rogues you need to kill the mob in 2 minutes. But actual EQ that we play calls for these utility classes to be used on raids all the time. If you got a single pull of a non rampaging mob to a corner, yea, they're rather useless. So is basically everyone but the MT, Clerics and pure DPS though.

[Wabic]

That makes sense; Knights are tougher than bards. Thanks for the clarification.

[Raev]

Grouping, Knights are champions
Smaller trio style groups Knights are the superior tank option

The only case when Knights really shine is when your group sucks. If the monk is terrible and the SK splits, then great. If the Enchanter can't CC and the paladin is rooting and stunning, then great. But otherwise, Warriors and Monks are just better. If the group is humming, then the extra dps of the warrior means more XP, and if the group is taking on tough stuff (= seb protector, EToV) then the superior HP/AC/discs of the warrior will give far better worst case performance than the knight's aggro spells.

Every raid mob with Rampage will be tagged by Knights
Warriors are obviously superior for rampage tanking because their lack of aggro spells is unimportant. Knights will only be used there if there are insufficient warriors.

who do you think is going to kite trains or adds?
Anyone with a sow potion and a bladestopper? But I kinda hope training won't be as important in Velious; it's hard for me to imagine anyone seriously training around NTOV without either a) getting vaporized by quads for 400 or b) getting petitioned after annihilating someone else's raid with 4-5 trash mobs.

[Pint]

knights are the best classes in norrath, anyone who disagrees is prob crazy irl. you can trust me bc i would not lie.

[myriverse]

This thread is racist.

[Wabic]

Anyone with a sow potion and a bladestopper?

Sow pots don't work indorrs. You chopped that part off the quote. I got ya Daladen.

[Daldaen]

Warriors snap aggro blows. They're awful for groups that are plowing through content. And extremely awful with groups taking on multiple mobs at once.

Warriors not getting procs and losing aggro to a DPS or healer and letting them die will slow down a group far too much. The DPS differential between Warrior/Knight isn't huge enough to warrant that risk.

Rampage obviously isn't about taking aggro, it's about staying alive. Not having to devote a warrior to this role is nice so you have more depth in your MT list. In general on raid mobs, a Knights role is to always be 2nd in aggro/top of rampage list. IE when mob is incoming all Knights throw a spell at the mob so the rampage list is 1-5 Knights. Likewise for the main aggro list they should know how many aggro spells they can cast to be underneath a full mallet spam and continually cast aggro spells throughout the fight so that if a tank goes down, the mob switches to a knight and has a few rounds on him before another warrior takes over and the CH Chain stabilizes on that warrior, instead of allowing the mob to rip through clerics or DPS.

If you think training won't be important... I'm going to say you're wrong right now. Probably not for NToV (though... Who knows people may just glitch out pathing in some spots.) But You can bet your ass no one is going to clear to Tormax or clear to Dain or clear to Zlandicar. There are going to be trains or CotH races everywhere. Bladestopper SoW'd person is nice but each SK and Paladin bring the most survivability (behind warriors) and several utility tricks (DA/FD + Heals and Roots) that will make them solid. In many places you will have to take a hit or two when gathering a train, and these are the classes best suited for this.

[kaev]

The only case when Knights really shine is when your group sucks. If the monk is terrible and the SK splits, then great. If the Enchanter can't CC and the paladin is rooting and stunning, then great. But otherwise, Warriors and Monks are just better. If the group is humming, then the extra dps of the warrior means more XP, and if the group is taking on tough stuff (= seb protector, EToV) then the superior HP/AC/discs of the warrior will give far better worst case performance than the knight's aggro spells.



There is truth behind the hyperbole there. But it's more about EQ group content not really requiring 6 good players. One or two in key roles who're clueful and the rest willing and able to take a bit of direction and avoid being bad and you're good to go 99% of the time. In a truly solid group my paladin is boring to play, unless we get massively trained or the chanter/bard goes LD right as a sizeable multi-pull hits camp I might as well be a warrior doing better damage. On the flip side, playing my cleric with a solid paladin tank is a complete snoozefest unless the rest are willfully ignorant morons or we get a train dumped on us.

Everything is relative tho. Go Shaman + Enchanter with Ranger tank (chanter pulls), grab 3x Rogues to kill and you can tell all the warriors, knights, and monks "sorry group full."

[Raev]

Warriors not getting procs and losing aggro to a DPS or healer and letting them die will slow down a group far too much.

Rogues never die in vaguely competent XP groups, and healing will never pull aggro off a warrior.

If you think training won't be important... I'm going to say you're wrong right now.

That's probably because you are too confident in your assumptions. What if Kael is depopulated by XP groups? What if the GMs start dropping the banhammer when those XP groups get trained?

But it's more about EQ group content not really requiring 6 good players.
What's strange to me, though, is that as the group size shrinks the Knights don't really get better even though they are nominally more versatile.

Anyway, I don't think Knights are terrible as much as I think Warriors are underrated. A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity. Reality is that warriors are gear dependent, but once you get the gear they are absolutely destructive: nearly as much DPS as monks, solid threat, massive hp/ac, and when you overpull you just hit evasive and you need maybe 1 CH in the next 3 minutes. I mean I played an *iksar* warrior and he was very strong IMO, so I can only imagine when it would feel like to play a full cobalt/crown of rile/etc ogre.

[Cecily]

Cobalt / ogre probably not too different. Kunark gear is terrible. The big deal in exp groups is weapons for warriors. Something with high agro even without the procs is what you need. Unfortunately, you aren't exping once you get something like that. No AAs kills this server.

[Samoht]

A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity.

Mixed with DPS that starts nuking as soon as your arrow lands when you pull.

[Lune]

Fun fact, /who all 50 60 *class* count

Monk: 42
Warrior: 16
Ranger: 9
Shadow Knight: 14
Paladin: 7
Rogue: 19

Disgusting. Dear Haynar, if you read this, please find a way to nerf monks. They have the most delicious tears.

[kaev]

What's strange to me, though, is that as the group size shrinks the Knights don't really get better even though they are nominally more versatile.

Players on p99 pretty much refuse to see knights in any role besides tank. Most knights here never learn to pull well, it's hard to learn something you never practice. A paladin can do pretty well in a puller+CC role, but if you've ever got paladin & warrior together the only group deployment that is not immediately rejected is "paladin tank, warrior go zerker and dps". I mean, do these people not understand that the damned paladin can root the mob(s) to make warrior agro trivial and go start the next pull?

Anyway, I don't think Knights are terrible as much as I think Warriors are underrated. A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity. Reality is that warriors are gear dependent, but once you get the gear they are absolutely destructive: nearly as much DPS as monks, solid threat, massive hp/ac, and when you overpull you just hit evasive and you need maybe 1 CH in the next 3 minutes. I mean I played an *iksar* warrior and he was very strong IMO, so I can only imagine when it would feel like to play a full cobalt/crown of rile/etc ogre.

It's funny sometimes grouping my warrior with careful casters, getting a proc on engage and then seeing root land always makes me want to giggle. But hell, if the shaman wants to root every mob before slowing I'm quite willing to pull out a 2hander and up the damage output. The overwhelming majority of warriors are never going to "get the gear" you're thinking of (mine's an alt, for instance), it's a cooperative game and a warrior's effectiveness as a tank is influenced hugely by the cooperation of their group. Necros & wizards that nuke on engage, rogues that can't even spell "evade" let alone use the ability, rangers & monks & rogues that equip weapons with agro procs or nuke procs, monks that can't be bothered to shed agro with FD... It does seem like few players here learn much of anything about agro management until/unless they get insta-gibbed a few times by Spiroc Lords.

[Raev]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192166

You're welcome. Also Sneak already has two angle checks, with 0 evidence to support that change. But even with the classic nerfs and the non-classic nerfs, monks will still be tremendously op <shrug>

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

No one answered the central question: which is cuter?

[myriverse]

Erudite.

[Danth]

Anyway, I don't think Knights are terrible as much as I think Warriors are underrated. A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity.

That's no myth; it's reality for many players. That "noob" Warrior with a Yak and a Silken Whip is a whole lot nearer to the norm for most folks than some VP-geared veteran who rarely groups outside his guild or group of friends. Epic Warriors aren't exactly crowding the LFG list in Karnor or Mistmoore. EQ's what you make it, and it so happens that the hybrid tanks do well in the portions of the game where Warriors struggle, and vice-versa. Know what you want to do and pick your class accordingly.

Danth

[Itap]

The only case when Knights really shine is when your group sucks. If the monk is terrible and the SK splits, then great. If the Enchanter can't CC and the paladin is rooting and stunning, then great. But otherwise, Warriors and Monks are just better. If the group is humming, then the extra dps of the warrior means more XP, and if the group is taking on tough stuff (= seb protector, EToV) then the superior HP/AC/discs of the warrior will give far better worst case performance than the knight's aggro spells.


Warriors are obviously superior for rampage tanking because their lack of aggro spells is unimportant. Knights will only be used there if there are insufficient warriors.


Anyone with a sow potion and a bladestopper? But I kinda hope training won't be as important in Velious; it's hard for me to imagine anyone seriously training around NTOV without either a) getting vaporized by quads for 400 or b) getting petitioned after annihilating someone else's raid with 4-5 trash mobs.


why don't you post on lorean anymore?

[indiscriminate_hater]

they're okay as a leveling guild but they lack high-level firepower

[Colgate]

Empire on red uses shadowknights to tank everything except for bee boss and overseer of air

they likely won't tank very much in velious, though

[Clark]

SK if you want to pull, Ranger if you want to be more unique and help track.

[BahamutDF]

Knights aren't bad, but I prefer a warrior in my group. I disagree with the notion that Knights are better in fast XP groups. The extra DPS alone from the warrior is more useful and, in a competent group, the majority of knight utility is useless.

[xarzzardorn]

knights are bad but so are 3/4 of the rest of the classes

[Lune]

I still can't decide. Maybe I should just play a monk like everybody else

[theguyy]

Anyone who didn't vote Shadowknight is trolling. They are far superior to the other two until Planes of Power and even then......