What would it take for a new mmo to recapture the feeling of eq?

[Roth]

I love eq. Love the game and mean it, when I play it I really appreciate the game even exists at all and I can play it in its original form and enjoy it. Love the entire game world and all the zones and everything. However sometimes I find myself wishing for new content or for small class changes that I know will never come. I think anyone who says nostalgia is what makes people like project 1999 are totally wrong... because EVERY time I play project 1999, I have that same amazing feeling of how cool and great this game world is that I never get from other mmos.

Personally I think what makes eq so fun is the simplicity and yet the detail of the world. Stuff doesn't always make sense. Things are just there and you don't really know why, you don't know what's out there. The world is dangerous and you have to respect it so you can actually survive. You can't just port around easily, for the most part travelling is slow and you have to think about where you want to go and where you want to be. When you go to an open zone out in the middle of nowhere with no one else around, it's a pretty great feeling. The lore is really great but there is no real directed path. You just go out and do what you want and I love that.

So the question is, what would it take for a new mmo to recapture the same feeling? As I said, I don't believe the "first mmo" theory holds up. I think there is something special here that just hasn't been revisited since. I feel like there is a strong chance we're gonna lose the potential for a spiritual successor to eq forever cause game devs just don't get it and don't care. So what would it take?

[Kika Maslyaka]

custom server -mostly the same but with intelligent tweaks.
Also - see my signature ;)

[Thiefboy777]

I agree, its not the nostalgia that makes EQ great.

I think its the open world, no instancing, can still die at max level if you're not careful. You can die in places that are hard to recover your corpse, adds a sense of danger and adrenaline rush. Gear that lasts, mmos nowadays you replace you entire gear set every few levels. The fact that classes are not balanced, this is important, gives you a reason to roll alts for a 100% different experience. No level restrictions on gear, twinking is fun as hell.

All that and I actually enjoy the gameplay, it still holds up to this day, I prefer it over a WoW rotation anyday.

[mgellan]

There are always custom servers abornin' - see www.eqemulators.net in the general conference for announcements.

In my case I'm working on a Trilogy server that will launch with pretty basically Trilogy content (and I'm not a slave to Classic-ness, see P99 for that!) then roll out new expansions based on the feel of Trilogy utilizing the best of what SOE released (e.g. PoP will be pretty close to stock except no PoK and books) while customizing content and mechanics. I've already got some folks helping drive the expansions with things like new ranger mechanics and tradeskills, feel free to click on the launchpad link below and comment.

Regards,
Mg

[paulgiamatti]

Substantial, substantive support from a playerbase.

I don't really think EverQuest was successful in its heyday just because it was one of the first MMOs; I think it was successful in its heyday because people were willing to invest insane amounts of time into it. I think people were sort of caught off-guard by this thing, and just kinda dove head-first into this huge fantasy world and willfully forgot about their real lives.

Most people quickly found out that doing so is simply not a sustainable way to entertain oneself. Online gaming addiction saw a meteoric rise into public awareness immediately after these kind of games hit the shelves, and World of Warcraft was largely developed in response to this problem, which is why it's so intent upon not only rewarding the casual gamer but being entirely designed around their needs.

And honestly, I don't really see anything wrong with that. Games that require investing inordinate amounts of time into them now have a more reasonable place in the gaming world among niche audiences and hardcore gamers. As long as a game requires people to invest as much time as EQ does just to see its end game, I really don't think we'll ever see another one quite like it - at least not at the caliber that EverQuest was during its peak years. Or, at least not until society no longer demands that most of us actually have something of a real life or hold down a job or support ourselves in some way.

It would take a completely different gaming landscape for something like EverQuest to actually be profitable in 2015. In short, developers don't care because developers have to eat.

[Calibretto]

Match. ^

Couldn't have said it better if I tried.

[Speedi]

First and most important: Community

This would mean no instances, or cross server queues. Both kill community. Which IMO is where EQ started going downhill. When they added instances. And for those of you that have played WoW. You know where I am coming from on cross server queues.

[Tsalarioth]

I don't think it's just the massive time investment thing- this game is still pretty fantastic for someone with only casual desires. A big part of EQ's draw and the reason I think people take much longer to tire of it is that it seems to be one of the only MMOs out there that does not immediately make the player feel like a hero of its world on your individual path to glory. You start out and a fire beetle or a snake can kick your ass if you don't watch yourself. Even as you progress in levels you are never really safe- it might take a while, but give some green con long enough and they will eventually kill you if you go AFK. There's also the lore factor mentioned above- how many huts and houses exist in this game with no NPCs inside and no real purpose other than to flesh out the world? Especially in the classic era, how many quests are there that give little reward or are completely irrelevant to every class but 1? Where else is faction so intertwined/complicated and so relevant even in high levels? Norrath is a world that doesn't care about you. You have to make it care about you if you want something. It will keep going whether you're there or not.

[Grivyn]

1: No instancing - nothing kills a community like instancing.
2: No leashing - knowing a mob will chase you until either you or it die gave a sense of trepidation to making that 50/50 pull.
3: No hand holding/spoon feeding, discovering an obscure item then figuring out what to do with it was part of EQ questing. Personally I hated seeing a bright yellow "!" mark above NPC's then the progression to getting more XP from questing than out fighting on top of that.
4: In general the higher you get the more you grouped be it for that rare spawn/rare drop camp or just plain XP'ing which in turn feed back into that thing called community
5: Respawning naked, nothing made death more challenging than the naked corpse run. It also forged reputations of those that would take the time to help out and those that ignored pleas for help. Once again leading into that fable community thingy.

[paulgiamatti]

First and most important: Community

I think there's something to be said, perhaps an argument to be made about the role MMO immersion plays in the amount of time the average MMO player spends in game.

Most gamers I talk to outside of our secluded P99 world don't really want anything to do with an online gaming community. In fact, the sole reason a lot of people turn to video games is because they want an escape from social situations, not to be subsumed into them while they're trying to level up or acquire gear.

But on the main point here - that community defines the feeling of EQ - you're absolutely correct. I just tend to think that that's another problem as to why the game is so incredibly immersive and demands that you spend as much time playing it as you would spend in any other endeavor in your life. And at the end of the day, I don't think we'll ever see anything more than a small audience tucked away in the corner of the internet willing to broadcast a substantial amount of interest in it.

Or I dunno, maybe I'm wrong.

[Roth]

I think there's something to be said, perhaps an argument to be made about the role MMO immersion plays in the amount of time the average MMO player spends in game.

Most gamers I talk to outside of our secluded P99 world don't really want anything to do with an online gaming community. In fact, the sole reason a lot of people turn to video games is because they want an escape from social situations, not to be subsumed into them while they're trying to level up or acquire gear.

But on the main point here - that community defines the feeling of EQ - you're absolutely correct. I just tend to think that that's another problem as to why the game is so incredibly immersive and demands that you spend as much time playing it as you would spend in any other endeavor in your life. And at the end of the day, I don't think we'll ever see anything more than a small audience tucked away in the corner of the internet willing to broadcast a substantial amount of interest in it.

Or I dunno, maybe I'm wrong.

I disagree on the time point mainly because when I'm busiest irl this game has been what I've enjoyed the most to fill in the gaps. A lot of other games don't feel immersive but demand time, demand you be the best or strongest. Eq is just an experience I really find it fun to play even casually. My main problem is I actually tend to get burned out on eq; I can't play it for months without getting tired of it. In a way eq is bad for dev profitability because it kinda scares people away but it's really so fun to play and immersive.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

gm's

[iruinedyourday]

It would take whatever a Goldilocks Planet needs, to have life on it.

[Tann]

a time machine

Majority of the current mmo fan base wants quick sensational content. Mobas are a great example of this, you get geared and max level in under an hour. Quick rinse and repeat content for the masses to enjoy.

[nothsa]

I think having a hard game, where there are items that are overpowered and really make a real difference to game play. Haste clickers, res sticks, dot clickers, slow proc, sow boots, mana reg items etc. These all feel like real charater progression. few items in other mmos change your power level compared to other mmos

[Clark]

custom server -mostly the same but with intelligent tweaks.
Also - see my signature ;)

Can't though because you need a large population. Custom servers are known for hordenous populations, and that isn't fun at all.

[Clark]

a time machine

Majority of the current mmo fan base wants quick sensational content. Mobas are a great example of this, you get geared and max level in under an hour. Quick rinse and repeat content for the masses to enjoy.

Ya agreed. It's such a same that this "everyone can have the best items, and everyone can be the best" attitude has screwed up current MMO's. Heck I still love P99 to death, but after 2012 we've even had some of that stuff infused into our near perfection P99. PNP for red, mandated rotations for blue, Class C and Class R for blue, no training on red, no kill stealing on red, MQs for epics; all for the most part unclassic things. Thank goodness the server is still going strong, but some things shouldn't have been tweaked the way they were.

[Swish]

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen ... its your best hope.

[iruinedyourday]

To be honest, Day-Z I think inflamed my EQ itch.. it was the last game I played before I jacked into this and never did anything IRL ever again.

So, there is something there.. that game is shit.. but there is something it is scratching the surface of, that could be as awesome as EQ1999

[Ravager]

No MMO can do it, because EQ already did it. Any mmo who tried to do a classic formula would fail out of the gates because everyone who pays for a sub is ADD now and wouldn't play it. This community thrives because everyone who wants it is here and yet half the people here still want cats on the moon. The only people doing anything close to old school gaming is the Exile crew and as good at is it is, I don't see it being sustainable with their current model, something is gonna give.

[Lopretni]

this is just my perspective as someone who has dicked around in a lot of MMOs but usually don't poopsock to exhaust every ounce of content the minute it comes out

making the entire game a challenge from 1 to max level. MMOs nowadays have two issues with this leveling vs max level problem. firstly they tend to put forth all their resources and effort into developing endgame content, especially as far as expansions go, so unless you already have rushed to max level the game is usually really fucking boring. which is the other problem, early level stuff is always so fucking easy and mind numbingly dull. yet they still want to make you feel like you've accomplished something, so it's grossly padded out to take forever.

EQ corrects this by having challenging dungeons that you can begin adventuring in fairly early on once you've gotten your feet wet and your class has its basic kit. the game is challenging but rewarding from level 1 until you're taking on dragons (if you're in the "right" guilds anyway but that's another topic)

drop the Diablo loot system. EQ has neat items because it's just 2 categories - mundane items, and magic items. it's not just a race to get your purple epix and because items aren't restricted as hard as WoW you'll find a single item has a lot of value not only for many classes but also across a much greater lifespan than WoW where you're chucking items in and out of your inventory every few levels.

stop with bloated stats. there is not a single fucking reason players should be able to reach a million health, that's fucking retarded. keep the ceiling low and this plays back into items having more value over time.

stop automating everything. the whole fucking point of joining an MMO, an online game, is to INTERACT WITH OTHER PLAYERS. when MMOs automate and instance everything it completely removes the social aspect which creates stories. EQ was so cool because veterans have crazy stories. just like D&D in that regard, for non-players it's just fun to sit around and listen to the crazy shit people encounter. not so much when everything is automated, pre-scripted and completely boxed in the way it is in every MMO now.

[Othniel626]

1: No instancing - nothing kills a community like instancing.
2: No leashing - knowing a mob will chase you until either you or it die gave a sense of trepidation to making that 50/50 pull.
3: No hand holding/spoon feeding, discovering an obscure item then figuring out what to do with it was part of EQ questing. Personally I hated seeing a bright yellow "!" mark above NPC's then the progression to getting more XP from questing than out fighting on top of that.
4: In general the higher you get the more you grouped be it for that rare spawn/rare drop camp or just plain XP'ing which in turn feed back into that thing called community
5: Respawning naked, nothing made death more challenging than the naked corpse run. It also forged reputations of those that would take the time to help out and those that ignored pleas for help. Once again leading into that fable community thingy.

Without delving into too much of the philosophical/abstract side of it, these things are what make EQ different than most of the other MMOs I've played, especially the tether/respawning naked aspect.

It adds a ton more challenge to people doing at least those two things. Played on an emulator WoW server for a couple of years (never got the live experience), and the tether thing made the game a joke. Oh crap, I pulled 3 dogs, lemme just run 40 feet away, they'll forget everything.

Not to mention all the hand-holding that occurs throughout the entire game in most MMO's. The !'s and ?'s above NPC's heads kinda kill the immersion and mostly lead to me skipping entire conversations because I knew it would just tell me what to do and send me to the right person on the map afterwards.

Lastly, as much as EQ has it's grindy parts for levels, it's got close to 10 different places (less at some levels) where I can go to get exp. It doesn't boil down to running heroics on a list of 4 different dungeons for your level that you can insta-teleport to if you queue into Group Finder.

[Kika Maslyaka]

stop automating everything. the whole fucking point of joining an MMO, an online game, is to INTERACT WITH OTHER PLAYERS. when MMOs automate and instance everything it completely removes the social aspect which creates stories. EQ was so cool because veterans have crazy stories. just like D&D in that regard, for non-players it's just fun to sit around and listen to the crazy shit people encounter. not so much when everything is automated, pre-scripted and completely boxed in the way it is in every MMO now.

This is because modern MMO targeting solo players - and I would say 99% of players are soloers either cause they prefer it this way or simply don't have time for prolonged play times that grouping requires (such as myself atm).

Of course games like WoW try to provided content for both kinds of player (hence group instances/raids) but in a huge world of soloers where your kind (groupers) only makes up 1% OR LESS - you do feel terribly lost.

For game type like EQ1 its better to have a game with maybe 10k population where everyone is at least open to grouping style mindset, rather than to have a game with 10 million players with 10k grouper horribly diluted within.

[Portasaurus]

Bring back EC Tunnel casinos!!!!

[Glenzig]

The biggest issue is this. There were no target demographics for EQ. They didnt make the game a certain way for certain types of gamers,they just made it the way they thought it should be.

Also cocaine.

[Lopretni]

This is because modern MMO targeting solo players - and I would say 99% of players are soloers either cause they prefer it this way or simply don't have time for prolonged play times that grouping requires (such as myself atm).

i think EQ already solved this though, there are classes which are very social and group reliant and classes that can solo very well and arguably more efficiently than if they were in a group. what WoW has tried to do has just made MMOs multiplayer games, not Massive in any sense of the word.

[andrew23]

Community... here's why...

1) Grouping begins early, and levels are slow. So time playing/meeting/building relationships is longer and has a long lasting "real" effect. A few days missed in WoW will have characters at such a level difference they will no longer group.

2) Players know their character and the world, and are willing to interact with other characters in it. You will find more interaction in buying an EJAC than you will find in a week of WOW. Unless you consider "gogogogogogogogogogo" interaction.

3) Difficult and rewarding. The slow progress and challenging mechanics have you coming back for more when you actually get somewhere. Because it feels like you've attained something, and you want to continue your legacy.

4) You can begin meeting/playing/working with end game players as early as level 46, which only promotes the team work mentality. Unlike other MMOs where anything less than MAX level and some drops is UNACCEPTABLE!

As far as "time consuming and life draining" comments, lets not be naive. Nerds dump TONS more time into WOW than they should. TONS of time into LOL, TONS of time into COD. Everquest doesn't require more time than any other video game. What everquest does require is a team player attitude and a level of focus that sadly most people don't have. So they claim it takes forever, but really... it only takes forever if you suck ass at networking, have no social skills, and lack the focus required to earn your keep.

[Kika Maslyaka]

i think EQ already solved this though, there are classes which are very social and group reliant and classes that can solo very well and arguably more efficiently than if they were in a group. what WoW has tried to do has just made MMOs multiplayer games, not Massive in any sense of the word.

Well, I have to say this doesn't really work very well.
EQ PvE enviroment is tuned to a group difficulty, so you can't solo these mobs like you can in WoW/EQ2 without being either - a very powerful class inherently (which will be also powerful in a group) or having very specific set of class skills/spells

Some classes which were intended to be solo-friendly - such as ranger, paly, sk - are in fact not so great both solo and in group, and hit with horrendous XP penalty. While classes that shine at soloing - druid, necro, - also great in groups.
While it should have been there are other way around - 0% xp penalty for hybrids and 40% penalty for druid/necro.
The only hybrid that is actually powerful soloer that deserves 40% penalty - is bard.

IMHO - this problems doesn't really have a good solution.

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/YH8arxq.png

[Lopretni]

[snip]

IMHO - this problems doesn't really have a good solution.

well i think it's a problem that may not need a solution, even if the way the devs intended it didn't pan out there's still an equilibrium and sense of normalcy. i think the "solution" is to make all classes homogenized and boring and make all the enemies super weak which isn't very fun. if it ain't broke don't fix it. not to say you couldn't make improvements, IIRC Velious eliminates the exp penalties doesn't it? so i guess that's a step in the right direction.

[Clark]

Community... here's why...

1) Grouping begins early, and levels are slow. So time playing/meeting/building relationships is longer and has a long lasting "real" effect. A few days missed in WoW will have characters at such a level difference they will no longer group.

2) Players know their character and the world, and are willing to interact with other characters in it. You will find more interaction in buying an EJAC than you will find in a week of WOW. Unless you consider "gogogogogogogogogogo" interaction.

3) Difficult and rewarding. The slow progress and challenging mechanics have you coming back for more when you actually get somewhere. Because it feels like you've attained something, and you want to continue your legacy.

4) You can begin meeting/playing/working with end game players as early as level 46, which only promotes the team work mentality. Unlike other MMOs where anything less than MAX level and some drops is UNACCEPTABLE!

As far as "time consuming and life draining" comments, lets not be naive. Nerds dump TONS more time into WOW than they should. TONS of time into LOL, TONS of time into COD. Everquest doesn't require more time than any other video game. What everquest does require is a team player attitude and a level of focus that sadly most people don't have. So they claim it takes forever, but really... it only takes forever if you suck ass at networking, have no social skills, and lack the focus required to earn your keep.

This is a really good post man.

[Trojanman]

A lot of great points here, I like threads like this.

I think most of you are right, no other game will capture what EQ did when it came out for several reasons. Another of which is that it came out at a time where online games were typically 16 players or the beefier counterstrike games could get up to 32? Here comes EQ with a truly massive amount of people that can interact together. This was before social media and before anything online offered that much direct user to user interaction...

I think the next big "EQ type" experience (if by this we mean revolutionary MMO), would have to include 2 things that are attainable in the very near future: VR and player effected environments (roguelike might be the wrong term?)

When EQ came out it wasnt graphically impressive, but it was about on par with other games of the time. Like I mentioned above it was the amount of people that can be immersed in the world at one time that was the draw. Today this is commonplace so it would need some new element of engagement to draw that massive immersive feeling. The obvious one here would be VR. Integrating this is a no-brainer moving forward but the first to do it well could pave the way for the next wave of MMOs.

The second would be an ever changing world where massive battles or player decisions could change the course of the server's physical landscape. This was the one thing I was excited about with EQ next and although ambitious, if done well could end all for me. I am not talking about a minecraft mmo where people could build dick statues all over the world. a system where to a limited degree destruction to structures could occur and mobs could relocate according to the environments conditions. Named mobs could not be "camped" because once they die... they cannot exist there any longer and would have to spawn at another place/time on that server. I could go on...

[applesauce25r624]

I'd rather recapture UO

[Evia]

To me, everquest was magical because it successfully made me feel as if I was in a world within a world. All the modern mmos make me feel like I'm playing a game. EQ does something that makes all the time sinking acceptable because it falls in line with more of a fantasy world simulator then an actual video game. The community/people really drive most of what goes on and the world is huge, vast, and mysterious.

[Troxx]

Substantial, substantive support from a playerbase.

I don't really think EverQuest was successful in its heyday just because it was one of the first MMOs; I think it was successful in its heyday because people were willing to invest insane amounts of time into it. I think people were sort of caught off-guard by this thing, and just kinda dove head-first into this huge fantasy world and willfully forgot about their real lives.

Most people quickly found out that doing so is simply not a sustainable way to entertain oneself. Online gaming addiction saw a meteoric rise into public awareness immediately after these kind of games hit the shelves, and World of Warcraft was largely developed in response to this problem, which is why it's so intent upon not only rewarding the casual gamer but being entirely designed around their needs.

And honestly, I don't really see anything wrong with that. Games that require investing inordinate amounts of time into them now have a more reasonable place in the gaming world among niche audiences and hardcore gamers. As long as a game requires people to invest as much time as EQ does just to see its end game, I really don't think we'll ever see another one quite like it - at least not at the caliber that EverQuest was during its peak years. Or, at least not until society no longer demands that most of us actually have something of a real life or hold down a job or support ourselves in some way.

It would take a completely different gaming landscape for something like EverQuest to actually be profitable in 2015. In short, developers don't care because developers have to eat.

Can't be said better than that.

/thread

[Champion_Standing]

Plenty of good MMOs out there that have everything people are claiming here makes EQ the best. It's just nostalgia.

[Roth]

Plenty of good MMOs out there that have everything people are claiming here makes EQ the best. It's just nostalgia.

This is not true, other mmo's don't capture the right spirit. I think the truth is people don't really know what makes eq so great so they say a couple things and someone applies it elsewhere and says "well you should like this it must be nostalgia". That's such bs. I don't care about wow the same way I care about eq. It's not nostalgia, and when I bring new players to eq they can usually see what I see in it and they're amazed. If other mmo's were so great I'd go play those and be happy with them but it's not the same experience here.

[Champion_Standing]

This is not true, other mmo's don't capture the right spirit. I think the truth is people don't really know what makes eq so great so they say a couple things and someone applies it elsewhere and says "well you should like this it must be nostalgia". That's such bs. I don't care about wow the same way I care about eq. It's not nostalgia, and when I bring new players to eq they can usually see what I see in it and they're amazed. If other mmo's were so great I'd go play those and be happy with them but it's not the same experience here.

So it all comes down to some intangible feeling you get when playing....hmmmm


There are people who feel this way about WoW, UO, DAoC and about a lot of other games. Put EQ down on paper and its a pretty unremarkable time sink.

[Roth]

So it all comes down to some intangible feeling you get when playing....hmmmm


There are people who feel this way about WoW, UO, DAoC and about a lot of other games. Put EQ down on paper and its a pretty unremarkable time sink.

For me I think it's special because the world feels realistic and doesn't feel like a game. It's challenging and I feel like an explorer and there's a strong community. To this day I still tell non eq friends when I talk about the game the time I was in dalnir and some other group went to 3rd floor and lost their corpses and we tried to bail them out... long story but interesting. I think these types of things were just fun and a different experience that I haven't been able to find in other games. When I play eq it just hits the right spot.

edit: btw I forgot to add the dalnir experience happened here probably a year ago ;), feels like a longer time than it was. That just proves my point though lol. I'm still making new memories on project 1999 and it's just an extension of my experience.

[pharmakos]

the sense of mystery was a huge part of it at first. it took months for people to figure out how to do the epic quests. you won't see that in a game for a long time, probably. people like instant gratification too much these days.

[Malik_Gynax]

I just want to weigh in my 2 cents on the nostalgia discussion.

I played EQ in 1999. I was 13. I was really into UO at the time and hated EQ. I played it to about level 30 and quit. I found it really boring and really punishing. I didn't play it again for more than 10 years.

When I gave it another try here, I loved it. I had no positive nostalgia for the game, other than a thought of "I really don't remember anything about this game other than being really frustrated by it. I may as well give it another shot."

I agree with the sentiments about community. I've never played another MMO besides here on P99 where people are grouping everywhere constantly and everything I do ends up involving other people. Even in solo adventures I end up meeting other players and exchanging buffs and information or anything like that. This just doesn't happen enough in other MMOs and I couldn't even tell you why not. But this element is what keeps me playing now and is why I can say EQ is my favorite MMORPG now.

I want to emphasize that it's the actual COMMUNICATION with other people that makes it. In a lot of games you can automatically queue up and end up in a group of people for an instance or something and play together that way... but most of the time they may as well be bots. Otherwise, there's some extremely rude guy barking orders and expressing irritation at the whole group. Then the instance ends and all of those people are never to be seen or heard from again. Communication in EQ actual feels like building community, which I appreciate very much.

I could get into any number of other elements about the game that I find superior to other MMOs I've played, but I feel that comes down to personal preference and isn't relevant to the discussion. I feel the appeal of this game boils down to the extent of community interaction.

[BahamutDF]

I think a lot of people have a tendency to overthink it.

EQ is great because it doesn't throw a meaningless reward in your face every half hour like clockwork. Rewards are earned which makes the reward more meaningful and satisfying in the first place.

Modern MMO's like to projectile barf rewards at the player to reward them for their valiant defeat of ten mobs that posed no threat to them to begin with. EQ rewards people that actually play the game well and succeed at becoming a part of the community.

[MteniPheet]

Community is the simple answer. Most games have it... but none to the extent EQ ever had. Reputation as well, people remember how nice or rude you were. If you made a mistake and owned up to it. Like trains, not to mention no other game really has trains today ;)

And then of course running around in cloth armor for levels upon levels because you actually had to work on it for an upgrade and it was meaningful, whether it was camping it or a long quest line for the upgrade. Sure it may have been small, but it was still a big deal.

Epics were hard ! And still are... I still remember my first epic on my very first character. Getting all these friends that then called in favors from their friends for the final fight.

Community, reputation, teamwork, challenge, etc etc etc... good thread but unfortunately probably beating a dead horse. Other than player/fan base stuff... developers don't care.

[stormlord]

It's a love/hate thing I think with most. There's a sizeable minority who prefer it.

The lack of in-game bells and whistles (maps/etc) and inclusion of interdependence between players and corpse runs and death penalty and first-person mean you have to keep your attention on the game. As you play, you're aware of this and it keeps you glued to hte screen. This is what creates the immersion and the illusion of being in the other world. HOwever, many are exhausted by this and some are too strained.

When you combine that with the lore and openness of the world, it creates a unique experience.

The thing is, we don't just live in VR, we live in RL too. So we cannot invest our full attention to the game, given so much can happen in RL. So players prefer to not be immersed as much.

Any game can reproduce this by simply limiting your capability to objectively observe your environment and by serving you heavy consequences for mistakes. You'll have to give lots of attention to the game. You'll feel immersed.

I play Wurm ONline and it reproduces a lot of this feeling. It has no GPS-enabled maps. It has corpse runs. It has no in-game radar. It's first-person only. It has dangeorus creatures in the wild. Players aren't as interdependent though. This feeling gets dulled whne you get a horse and become powerful as a fighter and magic user, but it always remains in some amount.

Games just need to limit what a player can objectively know and add Choices & Consequences.v The environment needs to be reasonably dangerous. The player has to feel like their attention is necessary.

And ya community is part of it, but I think the things I bring up here are the heart of it. Keep in mind the reason community mattered in EQ was because it was a strongly group-dependant game. You could solo, but even a solo-centered class was limited. It was because you'd have your corpse handed to you by the maker of death you turned to a community for help.

Most MMORPGs now favor soloers because most gamers prefer soloing. Soloing is so much frienldier to RL. Want to AFK to feed the baby? Easy. Want to take out the garbage? Easy. Want to cook a quicky? Easy enough. Need a potty break? Do it! The demands are low. The game caters to these people because most people are like this. Most people have demanding real lives and just cannot devote much time or attention to games. They don't wnat demandin games. They want to relax.

And you know that's not a bad thing. RL is more improtant than gaming.

[kaev]

EQ is the big tent that RL political parties pretend to aspire to but actually loathe and fear. Here people with wildly divergent attitudes co-exist uncomfortably in community. Sure, there are guilds that try to create a certain uniformity within their ranks, but in EQ they are just another aberration within the community, they never define the community.

That's why Rogean's ugly, horrible, loathsome, & unclassic tiered raiding system was and is a stroke of genius. It broke the "our way or the highway" hegemony of the single dominant raiding guild that threatened the chaos & conflict that are the lifeblood of the p99 community, and it did so in a way that fostered the return of the conflict TMO had smothered with their success. Likewise, the class R rotation was bound to be a temporary thing. It surprised me that the rotation lasted as long as it did, because it was an attempt to resist the rebirth of the healthy chaos and conflict that make EQ's native social environment fun.

You can see this illustrated also on our inadequately populated companion server. The fatal flaw of Red99 is not the cancerous little wannabes with their fungi twinks haunting lowbie hunting grounds. It's not the huge non-classic XP bonuses. It's the domination of the raid game by a single entity, which is as toxic to their community as it was to blue. With no interesting conflict between groups the server is like a diorama, lifeless and pointless no matter how cleverly organized.

[JonnyX]

2 Rules of Making Millions in Everquest in 2015:

Rule #1: Market the same exact classic EQ experience without eventually bending to the whims of the masses by offering mercs, instances, etc... (Keep it difficult, the people who want EZ mode will be the first to burnout anyhow)

Rule #2: Update/Modify the graphics. This will please the new fan boys and for most of the old a change in graphics wouldn't be a terrible ordeal if done properly (aka no luclin). EqNext seemed to be on the right path with their environment and some of their player models.

All in all, keep the community prosperous and simply update the graphics for all classic EQ content. Re-release and watch what happens. Friends and I have been talking about them doing this for years, but sadly it will never occur =/

[Connecticut]

4 words

Contested open world content

[Grimluck]

I don't think there will ever be another MMO like it. Here's why:

Gaming companies make game for one reason, to make money. Sure they are passionate about what they do, but ultimately, the people who all the shots, are in it for the money. Pure and simple. At the time EQ was being developed, it was unprecedented. There was nothing like it around. There was no business model for this type of game. No one knew if it was going to be a huge success or if it was going to crash and burn. When it released, it was a huge success. Again because there was nothing like it around. World of Warcraft saw how hugely successful EQ was, and they knew they could capitalize on those ideas, because the ground was so fertile. They made their game much more forgiving, and rewarded your every effort. These days, MMO's are a dime a dozen. The industry knows what can make the company the most money, and which games do not. The unforgiving style of MMO that EQ pioneered, has been overrun by hand holding and pay to win business models, and the sad part is, no one's looking back. I don't think businesses want to take a risk on something that isn't a sure thing, and creating a community-based MMO that rewards effort and teamwork is something that game companies big enough to make a new MMO anywhere near as risky as EQ was just isn't something they're willing to do.

All I can do is wait and see what happens. Until then, we have p99.

[Teneran]

I don't think there will ever be another MMO like it. Here's why:

Gaming companies make game for one reason, to make money. Sure they are passionate about what they do, but ultimately, the people who all the shots, are in it for the money. Pure and simple. At the time EQ was being developed, it was unprecedented. There was nothing like it around. There was no business model for this type of game. No one knew if it was going to be a huge success or if it was going to crash and burn. When it released, it was a huge success. Again because there was nothing like it around. World of Warcraft saw how hugely successful EQ was, and they knew they could capitalize on those ideas, because the ground was so fertile. They made their game much more forgiving, and rewarded your every effort. These days, MMO's are a dime a dozen. The industry knows what can make the company the most money, and which games do not. The unforgiving style of MMO that EQ pioneered, has been overrun by hand holding and pay to win business models, and the sad part is, no one's looking back. I don't think businesses want to take a risk on something that isn't a sure thing, and creating a community-based MMO that rewards effort and teamwork is something that game companies big enough to make a new MMO anywhere near as risky as EQ was just isn't something they're willing to do.

All I can do is wait and see what happens. Until then, we have p99.

^^^^^

We on P99 enjoy how punishing and challenging and the forced community of EQ. We like earning our rewards and levels, sometimes through arduous questing and/or camping. But ... most people don't. If you launched the original EQ today, it would fail, there wouldn't even have been Kunark because it would have been shut down before any expansions were launched. You cannot make money on classic EQ. This project is thriving but it has ONE blue server. There aren't enough people for even two blue servers ... that equals a failed business model in the real world.

[stormlord]

To be honest, Day-Z I think inflamed my EQ itch.. it was the last game I played before I jacked into this and never did anything IRL ever again.

So, there is something there.. that game is shit.. but there is something it is scratching the surface of, that could be as awesome as EQ1999
Wurm ONline did it for me. I leanred it was the immersion. It was the lack of convenience features. It was consequences.

Mortal Online and Xsyon and survival games generally do the same thing.

Harsh survival games in particular because it's about not dying. Somehow that's different. A lot of games are about winning because you don't really lose in them. Losing is just a small slap on the wrist.

EQ was more than that ofc. It had a lot of downtime. It had a lot of chatting. It had a lot of lore in the world. The dungeons were all unique and hand crafted. I can't faithfully compare a sandbox MMO like Mortal Online to EQ because there're many differences. However, my principal argument is it was the lack of convenience features and the death penalty which immersed us in it. With too many convenience features games lose their bite. Somehow they become less real to us. It's harder to immerse in them because of this. And it's this way I think that Wurm Online and survival games pull me into them.

But as I get more powerful (or protected) in Wurm Online, I get pulled into it less and less. As the consequences reduce it becomes more distant. It's only when I keep the pressure on and keep the risks high that the immersion can stick.

And it was the danger/dying which made us group up in the first place. We joined groups to compensate our weaknesses, not just to gain experience faster. One of the reasons they didn't dramatically increase experience when you joined a group is because most classes were made to compliment each other. In this way, experience would go up faster because as a group players were more effective. A healer could keep the group healed and do rezzes. A rogue would focus on dps, watching aggro. A monk could could tank better than a rogue and dps better than a warrior and feign death. A warrior would keep the monster attacking him/her. Anybody flanking or standing behing the monster would hit more often. Casters could root or snare or debuff.

So in review my feeling is the more a game requires your attention AND raises the negative consequences for failing/dying, the higher the immersion. That's what made EQ special. Everything else is too random and beside the point.

But games requiring full attention and having negative consequences for failing/dying are very hard to play for people who have jobs and family and/or RL demands. People who play games tend to not want frustration because htey get plenty of that from RL. They want a game which is more relaxing; less demanding.

[natx808]

modern day MMO have no soul. that is what is needed to recapture the feeling of eq.

[tizznyres]

A world that feels large, open, and immersive. A world that doesn't offer automated GUI mapping with perfect GPS positioning, and doesn't brightly label every NPC or quest offering that is available; and certainly one that doesn't hold your hand directly to your objective(s). Less NPC driven / effortless fast-travel, at least without the help of other players. Less instancing whenever possible, and an effort to make more of the desirable content contestable among players.

An emphasis on player-to-player dynamics. In EverQuest, especially early on, player interactions were extremely important at all stages of the game. Before hand drawn maps were commonplace and easy to find, seeking the aid of other players who knew zones well, classes that could SoW, Buff HP or Regen, Cast Invis or IvU, Resurrect, or even Teleport you were extraordinarily useful.

A strict and punishing, but equally conquerable Risk vs Reward design both at the early and endgame stages of the game. Games where dying or making tragic mistakes means a only few seconds to a few minutes of inconvenience, or a slight durability / currency penalty really don't grasp this concept. Additionally, games that require little to no real dedication to gain the highest quality loot fall short in the same way.

A strong player-driven Economy that relies on individual players to harvest and craft much of the more desirable items in the game. Along with this, a distancing from the idea of server-wide, instant-transaction, zero-interaction Auction Houses or similar setups. A return to the idea of direct player trading, albeit with less of the tedium that was involved in early EQ trading. Simple things like linking items in chat are generally an improvement across the board.

A simple concept that's all but lost in modern MMOs: the idea of discovering and solving quests that most other players likely don't even know exist. Whether this is done through EQ's rather archaic idea of Hailing NPC's and trying to discover quest keywords or a more modern and less tedious method. This added a level of intrigue and mystery to EverQuest that I haven't seen in any online multiplayer RPG since. It helped make the world feel like it was something special, and that there were always secrets to be discovered. Not to mention solving the epic 1.0 quests originally were massive efforts on behalf of countless players in the community. Even in 2015 I find it fascinating to go back and read classic-era archived posts about how certain quests were solved originally.

A distancing from the common modern Cash Shops and similar real-money offerings, especially those that provide certain players advantages over others. Not only do I find these things offensive, they really don't make any sense at all and are entirely non-canon in regards to a game world.

Other less important, but very simple concepts such as Currency having a weight-value, and a rather substantial one at that. Struggling to move huge sums of money and valuable items around with ease may seem like an unnecessary inconvenience to some, but it adds a level of immersion and realism to a world.

Finally, the most abstract but perhaps most important thing: A clear and unique vision shared between the core development team that remains true throughout the game's career. I realize publisher and player demands may change over time, but remaining as true as possible to an original vision I feel is of paramount importance.

[Kika Maslyaka]

A simple concept that's all but lost in modern MMOs: the idea of discovering and solving quests that most other players likely don't even know exist. Whether this is done through EQ's rather archaic idea of Hailing NPC's and trying to discover quest keywords or a more modern and less tedious method. This added a level of intrigue and mystery to EverQuest that I haven't seen in any online multiplayer RPG since. It helped make the world feel like it was something special, and that there were always secrets to be discovered. Not to mention solving the epic 1.0 quests originally were massive efforts on behalf of countless players in the community. Even in 2015 I find it fascinating to go back and read classic-era archived posts about how certain quests were solved originally.

This doesn't really work as well as you imagine. Once a quest was discovered and solved - everyone just reads its walk-through online, including useful comments on how to skip unnecessary steps ;) How many people playing on this server have actually EVER found and solved their own quests without looking it up on Alakhazam first? How many people on this server have wiki page opened with check marks to each step done when doing their epics? This approach works well for a one time DnD campaign, but not for MMO.

[Zalmo]

Basically what everyone else has said is pretty spot on. I'd say an MMO like EQ could actually be possible in the not too distant future as MMOs have drifted quite far from this type of game so it would stand alone. It wouldn't need millions of players to be profitable, likely even 1-200k would be plenty enough. The problem is modern MMOs are trying to cast their net over the whole market.

[Clark]

modern day MMO have no soul. that is what is needed to recapture the feeling of eq.

:)

[mr_jon3s]

It's not really possible because EQ hit a sweet spot. The internet was young and didn't have many sources for information about games. Hardly anyone had MMO experience. It took years for people to figure out everything in EQ. Now in a modern MMO people know everything about the game in a week and are max level.

I think the only real way to recapture the feeling will be when the first full immersion VR MMO comes out. Pretty much with you actually being the character.

[StrangeTech]

Not being able to server transfer/name change one's way out of being a jerk helps. You build your own reputation and own it. In modern MMOs, you can do things "for teh lulz" and never have to worry about it. Chances are, they're never going to see you again.

Back in Classic, I had a guy do the trade scam which causes you to drop your bags. He then proceeded to snatch them up and claim innocence. I logged and switched toons, only to find he was selling my bags of gear. I confronted him in tells first, then OOC. He quickly coughed up the good, lest his reputation be ruined.

I'm not saying accountability makes EQ so much better than any other game, but (for the most part) it kept the servers and community clean.

[Barkingturtle]

First off, I have not read this thread so I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this.

The last few years when I'm not playing P99 I've been on Wurm. (http://www.wurmonline.com/) It has some similarities to classic EQ. It has certainly come closest to recreating that ol' EQ feeling. There are no quests. You get lost constantly. It's very hard at first. All your loot stays on you when you die and corpse runs can be truly horrifying. It is a massive time sink. It is terribly addictive. The graphics are crap. The controls are lacking. There are times when I think it's the greatest game ever.

[Blap]

- non instanced zones (group/raids) challenging runs against other guilds
- naked corpse run
- epic quests
- hard time traveling
- difficulty to mastering your class

[Aeaolena]

I love eq. Love the game and mean it, when I play it I really appreciate the game even exists at all and I can play it in its original form and enjoy it. Love the entire game world and all the zones and everything. However sometimes I find myself wishing for new content or for small class changes that I know will never come. I think anyone who says nostalgia is what makes people like project 1999 are totally wrong... because EVERY time I play project 1999, I have that same amazing feeling of how cool and great this game world is that I never get from other mmos.

Personally I think what makes eq so fun is the simplicity and yet the detail of the world. Stuff doesn't always make sense. Things are just there and you don't really know why, you don't know what's out there. The world is dangerous and you have to respect it so you can actually survive. You can't just port around easily, for the most part travelling is slow and you have to think about where you want to go and where you want to be. When you go to an open zone out in the middle of nowhere with no one else around, it's a pretty great feeling. The lore is really great but there is no real directed path. You just go out and do what you want and I love that.

So the question is, what would it take for a new mmo to recapture the same feeling? As I said, I don't believe the "first mmo" theory holds up. I think there is something special here that just hasn't been revisited since. I feel like there is a strong chance we're gonna lose the potential for a spiritual successor to eq forever cause game devs just don't get it and don't care. So what would it take?

(Don't have time to read the replies so I'll just answer original post in case someone hasn't said this yet)

In EQ, you depend heavily on other players.

Thus, you earn a reputation.

In EQ, there are no instances, so there are always opportunities for players, guilds, groups to be dicks, or greedy.. or civil.

Thus, your guild earns a reputation.


----------------

The newer and newer games get, the more they do stuff "for you" so that you do not have to rely on other characters. Don't fight over boss mobs, here have some instances. Don't worry about asking someone for a bind, who might say yes if they are a saint, and no if they are too busy for the likes of you. Don't worry about asking someone for buffs if you stick to the path. Don't worry about how hard it will be to find a group, groups for experience don't matter anymore! You can solo quest! Don't worry about asking for a port and bugging someone for their time, we have NPC's with birds you can use! Don't worry about haggling in an EC tunnel where all the high level characters go to show off their cool gear and new epics (you know you do it)... because there's an auction house where you never have to have human interaction again! In fact, don't worry about ever having 'unique' looking gear again that people drool over.. because everyone can dye their armor to look JUST like yours. So never again will you look at someones red robe and say "ohhh, that necro has the CT robe". Don't worry about getting lost or needing to ask someone for help, there's a map! Don't worry about how much it sucks to die, and thus why you want GOOD/SKILLED players in your group - you won't lose that much exp! IN FACT, Don't worry about your reputation AT ALL, because we'll now set you up with a random group and insert you in an instance.. you don't even need to have human interaction or speak the same language.. and don't worry, if that person who hasn't said a word hits "NEED" on a roll to Ninja it and disconnects after everyone else rolled greed.. you won't remember their name. Because reputation doesn't matter.

In EQ, reputation matters. Ninja something from another guild's raid, and it's the yoink heard round the server. Guilds RUSH to Rants and Flames to talk about how loose that person's guild's morals are and how that guild lets in horrible people. Be a dick, can't play your class, are a spazz? Don't even think about getting a group in Sebilis, where the stakes are high for corpse recovery if you die!

It's about reputation. For reputation, things have to have lots of ways to go wrong to tell the morale of community members. Lots of opportunities for people to be jerks, basically... so they can prove they aren't jerks.

In EQ, you needed to be civil and you needed to interact with people for your gear, bind, rez, port, summon, group. The groups where static and boring.. thus you got to know people. Made friends. Made reputations.

[mycoolrausch]

It's not really possible because EQ hit a sweet spot. The internet was young and didn't have many sources for information about games. Hardly anyone had MMO experience. It took years for people to figure out everything in EQ. Now in a modern MMO people know everything about the game in a week and are max level.

I think the only real way to recapture the feeling will be when the first full immersion VR MMO comes out. Pretty much with you actually being the character.

I don't know about VR specifically but I think your point is more or less correct. There needs to be a substantial technology leap before the next great MMO can come out. Gameplay technology in terms of AI/procedural tech/emergence/dynamic content/etc has only very incrementally improved since 1999 in games in general. Surfaces have gotten a lot shinier though.

[iruinedyourday]

Oh shit, figured it out.

Take dark souls.

Make it open world.

Done!

[Chandorean]

One of my favorite things about EQ is the many and unique ways of slaying pixels depending on the circumstance. On my necro alone I can pet tank, kite in half a dozen various ways, tap tank, charm undead, root rot...tons of variety. Pulling mobs is an art form. Quad kiting..someone figured out how to do that! The diversity of attacks is something I haven't found elsewhere and it adds a real thrill to the game. I get wildly bored spamming 2 or 3 hot keys in other games. Any new MMO to capture lightning in a bottle would have to offer similar depth for me.

[webrunner5]

^^^^^

We on P99 enjoy how punishing and challenging and the forced community of EQ. We like earning our rewards and levels, sometimes through arduous questing and/or camping. But ... most people don't. If you launched the original EQ today, it would fail, there wouldn't even have been Kunark because it would have been shut down before any expansions were launched. You cannot make money on classic EQ. This project is thriving but it has ONE blue server. There aren't enough people for even two blue servers ... that equals a failed business model in the real world.

He makes some damned good points. Wow is a LOT more popular than EQ live and here by far.

I think Brad's EQ Next may be popular also. People now want a lot more flash in the game, and the graphics engines are capable of doing it along with newer graphic cards.

And I don't think most people anymore have the time it takes here to get to 60 playing a couple hours 2, 3 times a week. It is just to hard to do that. And hard to group for only a few hours also.

I know there is like 1,700 people on here as of late, but that is a very little amount of people from the whole damn world that are playing. This is not some roaring success. :eek:

We are a few, and damned few people, that still enjoy a game in a sense that can never be duplicated again. It is hard mode and very time consuming. And that is what makes us come back to it, and obliviously old memories. :)