Please Address: STA > HP Confusion

[ccs88]

I had authored a section in the wiki 1-2 years ago concerning STA to HP conversions (see attached image for my original work).
I recently went to reference it, and noticed that somebody had removed the soft caps from my chart (see the new chart (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Hitpoint_Calculation) and the post (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134638) that initiated this change).

I had based my evidence on personal testing, forum research (see this post from Daldaen (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1524688&postcount=4) and this post from Cecily (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1156479&postcount=7) for example), and verifying the conversions via the Magelo profiles on the wiki.

If I'm wrong here, then please provide some real evidence other than some heresay from a few randos.
Some insight from the devs would be great, although I can reference a 2014 post from Daldaen already.

Thanks.

[Colgate]

i don't believe there's a soft cap

seems like primal essence always gives me +80 hp on a monk

[Daldaen]

My post on stamina was based on the wiki chart. I actually don't pay much attention to the gains from Stamina since I mostly play casters and their gains are so terrible it's not worth looking at. I assumed the chart was correct because many stats do have softcaps ( WIS/INT at 200, AGI being over 75, CHA being 125-135ish for best price)

Colgate may be correct in that there's no soft cap - It would just require a little gear swapping and looking at stat changes. I can look at my warrior some time, but I dunno if he has enough STA gear to do meaningful tests (also is level 52 so the level 60 values won't be there exactly.)

WTB Beta so I can test it!

[Synthlol]

I had authored a section in the wiki 1-2 years ago concerning STA to HP conversions (see attached image for my original work).
I recently went to reference it, and noticed that somebody had removed the soft caps from my chart (see the new chart (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Hitpoint_Calculation) and the post (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134638) that initiated this change).

I had based my evidence on personal testing, forum research (see this post from Daldaen (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1524688&postcount=4) and this post from Cecily (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1156479&postcount=7) for example), and verifying the conversions via the Magelo profiles on the wiki.

If I'm wrong here, then please provide some real evidence other than some heresay from a few randos.
Some insight from the devs would be great, although I can reference a 2014 post from Daldaen already.

Thanks.

I'm probably the one who removed your shit on the stamina softcap, but someone may have beaten me to the punch. I don't remember if it had already been fixed when I went to fix it.

The stamina soft cap doesn't exist on p99, and a part of me will resent you forever for putting that damn table in the wiki.

I rolled my monk with +20 to Strength because of your table. The sole reason I didn't do a full stamina roll was reading your part of the wiki explaining that stamina returns were halved above 115. Imagine my surprise when one day I had a stamina buff (read: over 115) and I was actually paying attention to my health values while swapping around gear. I noticed that taking off gear with some stamina caused my max hp to change more than I expected, considering I was above the 'softcap'. I noted the difference with and without a piece of STA gear, clicked off the buff to drop under 115,, and again compared values with and without the same piece of gear. Guess what, the differences were equal, and both of them equate to your 'sub-115' values for stamina returns. I've retested this on other characters with the same results. I've had friends and guildmates confirm these results.

If you had done your testing in the actual game, you would have found the same thing, and my monk would have rolled with +20 stamina like a smart one should. Majelo calculates character HP differently from the actual game if it halves HP returns above 115 STA. I really wish people like you didn't do what you do.

[joeintokyo]

I have never heard of diminishing returns on stats before 255. Once you were able to go over the 255 cap it went to 1.5 or something but not before.

After everyone understood stats a bit better on live it was always stamina all the way for most classes as it was one of the harder stats to max out for non-tanks.

[rubinoff]

I'm probably the one who removed your shit on the stamina softcap, but someone may have beaten me to the punch. I don't remember if it had already been fixed when I went to fix it.

The stamina soft cap doesn't exist on p99, and a part of me will resent you forever for putting that damn table in the wiki.

I rolled my monk with +20 to Strength because of your table. The sole reason I didn't do a full stamina roll was reading your part of the wiki explaining that stamina returns were halved above 115. Imagine my surprise when one day I had a stamina buff (read: over 115) and I was actually paying attention to my health values while swapping around gear. I noticed that taking off gear with some stamina caused my max hp to change more than I expected, considering I was above the 'softcap'. I noted the difference with and without a piece of STA gear, clicked off the buff to drop under 115,, and again compared values with and without the same piece of gear. Guess what, the differences were equal, and both of them equate to your 'sub-115' values for stamina returns. I've retested this on other characters with the same results. I've had friends and guildmates confirm these results.

If you had done your testing in the actual game, you would have found the same thing, and my monk would have rolled with +20 stamina like a smart one should. Majelo calculates character HP differently from the actual game if it halves HP returns above 115 STA. I really wish people like you didn't do what you do.

Can confirm with my monk who has +20 to STA that there is no soft-cap :rolleyes:

[webrunner5]

Well you know Stamina is broken because you do not have to sit and regen it like on Live in the day. :(

When you swung heavy weapons in a fight you had to sit and regen it till the Bar was nearly or full or you weren't going anywhere. And Shamans have buffs to raise Sta for more reasons than one. Not just the start of a fight to buff you. :p

[ccs88]

The stamina soft cap doesn't exist on p99, and a part of me will resent you forever for putting that damn table in the wiki.

Had I never made the chart and you went to research it, you would've found all the same numbers I did.
I made posts back then and nobody knew how it worked. Also, why would I assume Magelo is wrong?
Everything pointed me to this softcap and nothing said otherwise.
I was at the point of messaging 60's in game to test for me but it was too much work for them.
I wasn't going to make a 60 of every class when I had a good amount of information backing me up as it were.

TL;DR I put all the current info at the time into a chart. I don't feel I'm the one you should direct your anger at.

[Pint]

You made that guy distribute his starting points in a non optimal fashion!? OFF WITH THIS GUYS HEAD!!!!!!

[webrunner5]

You made that guy distribute his starting points in a non optimal fashion!? OFF WITH THIS GUYS HEAD!!!!!!

Heh, yeah very true. There is a LOT of things in this game that even the Devs have no clue about totally.

I think and have always thought for a Melee you need tons of Str, Sta, AC and HP on top of that.

That is one hell of a lot of things to figure out on the starting points and gear selection. But some classes, say a Gnome Warrior, are really screwed even at the start compared to a Ogre. But lots of people play them anyways.

But the 4 things I mentioned you need not counting great Weapons and Haste item are a MUST for a Tank. :)

[Synthlol]

Had I never made the chart and you went to research it, you would've found all the same numbers I did.
Everything pointed me to this softcap and nothing said otherwise.
TL;DR I put all the current info at the time into a chart. I don't feel I'm the one you should direct your anger at.

I simply see you as the reason that I made a mistake which I wish I hadn't. I don't wish you any harm or ill-will. I'd call it annoyance, not anger. But you are certainly where it should be directed, and I certainly wouldn't have found the same numbers you did. Everything pointed to the softcap except for what actually happens in the game when you test it.

If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b240PGCMwV0)


You made that guy distribute his starting points in a non optimal fashion!? OFF WITH THIS GUYS HEAD!!!!!!

I understand that I'll always be down 80hp because of my own choice, and that's just something I've had to accept. It'd just be nice if our source for info on the finer points of game was based on the actual behavior of the game. It's a good habit to keep.

[ccs88]

But you are certainly where it should be directed, and I certainly wouldn't have found the same numbers you did. Everything pointed to the softcap except for what actually happens in the game when you test it.

If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b240PGCMwV0)


That's easy to say when you have level 60 characters at your disposal, and if you did, why would you trust a stranger's chart?
You should know that a wiki page is maintained by users. I sincerely doubt that you would've found the right numbers unless you asked a monk to strip down and pull out a calculator (good luck with that).
You would have to trust what they told you, too.

Pulling out a Feynman video is a little much when you did zero experiment on the matter and are trying to blame somebody else for it. Sorry. (http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors5/ken-thompson-scientist-quote-you-cant-trust-code-that-you-did-not.jpg)

[khanable]

Warriors are 6hp/sta all the way up to 255

[Synthlol]

That's easy to say when you have level 60 characters at your disposal, and if you did, why would you trust a stranger's chart?URL]

The fact that I fucked up by taking your word for it is the entire point I am making - your word is fundamentally flawed.

I figured this out as a monk in my mid 20s.

It's not about knowing the exact numbers, it's about figuring out that the returns don't change past 115.

Please think things through more often.

[ccs88]

The fact that I fucked up by taking your word for it is the entire point I am making - your word is fundamentally flawed.

I figured this out as a monk in my mid 20s.

It's not about knowing the exact numbers, it's about figuring out that the returns don't change past 115.

Please think things through more often.

I just don't understand the level of butthurt that you're at.
Especially if you found out in your 20s. Re-roll. Confirmed really rude guy.

[Synthlol]

I just don't understand the level of butthurt that you're at.


Typical defensive teenage bullshit. You can't reroll nodrop items.

[Dac321]

Typical defensive teenage bullshit. You can't reroll nodrop items.

If you're as good as you make yourself out to be, I think you can get some more no drops.

[Synthlol]

If you think acting like an expert on something you've never actually tested is okay, then you're a lost cause. I'm not looking for sympathy for my stamina points. But keep detracting from the discussion with the tunnel vision on me admitting I did something I regret. This is the internet, after all, where disapproving of someone being inconsiderate makes you a raging butthurt fag.

[ccs88]

If I were "acting like an expert" I would have just changed it back to the original chart and not made this post.
I wanted to get to the bottom of it for the community to reference and now that has happened.
Thanks for being the lab rat on this experiment I guess.

Nothing to be gained henceforth. /threadlock

[slappytwotoes]

That's easy to say when you have level 60 characters at your disposal, and if you did, why would you trust a stranger's chart?

Why do you have to be lvl 60 to see if stamina returns the same HP values above 115? You could be level 1 and see that there's a problem with your theory.

Also why would you post this on the wiki as if its definitive without ever testing in game before? You say you didn't because it was hard to test. Why didn't you just make a forum post like this one?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that every lvl 60 ignores you and its impossible to test somehow. That doesn't mean you post the chart on the wiki anyway! At least qualify it or something. /boggle

Just remember in the future that Magelo is live EQ data. P99 aint live. You gotta test always. Could be live data from a different era, could be something p99 couldn't implement, could be a legitimate issue the devs have wrong.

[ccs88]

Why do you have to be lvl 60 to see if stamina returns the same HP values above 115? You could be level 1 and see that there's a problem with your theory.

You don't. Making a chart that shows level 1, 33, or 54 conversions doesn't really benefit anyone. At 60 you absolutely have the gear to test this, so it's just the best option.

Also why would you post this on the wiki as if its definitive without ever testing in game before?

Again, I did not have the characters or the gear at my disposal when the chart was made. I used every other resource I could find.

You say you didn't because it was hard to test. Why didn't you just make a forum post like this one?

I did (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125182) in 2013. Notice that I got a handful of completely different answers.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that every lvl 60 ignores you and its impossible to test somehow. That doesn't mean you post the chart on the wiki anyway! At least qualify it or something. /boggle

Just remember in the future that Magelo is live EQ data. P99 aint live. You gotta test always. Could be live data from a different era, could be something p99 couldn't implement, could be a legitimate issue the devs have wrong.

Magelo was around during the Kunark/Velious era. I had assumed that whoever made the wiki version was not using live EverQuest formulas.

[kaev]

... I had assumed ...

You posted as if your assumptions were true, without bothering to test. There is no rationalization you can post that will justify this. The fact is that it is very easy to test and disprove your assumptions, no level 60 is required. You might want to learn from your error and move on, rather than trying to justify it. Nobody's going to punish you for making the error or owning up to it, which makes your hopeless defense of it rather puzzling.

[ccs88]

You posted as if your assumptions were true, without bothering to test. There is no rationalization you can post that will justify this. The fact is that it is very easy to test and disprove your assumptions, no level 60 is required. You might want to learn from your error and move on, rather than trying to justify it. Nobody's going to punish you for making the error or owning up to it, which makes your hopeless defense of it rather puzzling.

Going in circles here. I'm not defending aything, just answering questions like "Why didn't you do X?". Any reasonable person could see how I came to my conclusions. I could be ranting about the guy that put live magelo formulas on the P99 wiki but I'm not an asshole.

[myriverse]

Magelo was around during the Kunark/Velious era. I had assumed that whoever made the wiki version was not using live EverQuest formulas.
Velious, yes, but not Kunark. It began in mid-2001.