Classic vs. Challenge

[Raev]

Rumor, which runs before us like a barking dog, hints that the Beta server is not going to be up again, and the raid targets are going to be buffed. On the one hand, I love the fact that raid content is finally going to be challenging in ways other than poopsocking/FTE. On the other hand, it deeply bothers me that we won't have a classic server. We have a bunch of classholes talking about how we need to nerf the client so you can't move items out of banked bags, and yet we currently have:

Dragon fear lasting 2-3x longer than it should
'normal' AEs should be resisted like 85-90% with max resists, not 30-40%
Many dragons with 1.5-2x HP
Avatar of War hitting 35% faster than he should be
Dragons with way overtuned ATK values

And so on and so forth. I think when people start actually playing Velious there is going to be a massive outcry about how hugely overtuned these targets are. But then, on the first hand again, if Velious is released with truly classic values everything will be stomped on day 1.

Here is my suggestion: let's introduce a 'difficulty' knob that explicitly makes mobs more challenging, kind of like 'players 8' in Diablo. For example, suppose our difficulty was set at '+50'. Well, in that case, all raid targets get 50% more HP, their AEs all do 50% more damage, their AC/ATK goes up, etc. I'm just making up numbers here, but I think this has some big advantages over the current ad hoc system:

We have the code for a true classic server
Fresh servers can start at difficulty 0, and the staff can gradually increase it to keep things challenging
Kunark with 2x raid target HP and other NPC buffs might actually be interesting
Guilds won't be able to stomp Velious on day 1, because everything will be much harder than it was on the Beta server the night before.
Which means that the beta server can stay up and we can continue to find bugs like 10th ring war mobs warping through the ground

[Efwan]

Voted no. With the raid scene like it is this all will be perfect, at least then it may feel like the classic experience. This doesn't affect any of the casuals really just the raiders which need to be affected. Noone wants to see flayed barbarian skin leggings on night 1 just because of a zerg.

[Raev]

^^ did not read post

[Efwan]

I did. Why steadily increase difficulty when we pretty much need it at the "hardest" on day 1?

[Raev]

Guilds won't be able to stomp Velious on day 1, because everything will be much harder than it was on the Beta server the night before.

Furthermore, the entire thrust of the post was that increasing difficulty is a good thing, but we should do it in a clean and elegant way rather than a bunch of ad hoc changes.

On the one hand, I love the fact that raid content is finally going to be challenging in ways other than poopsocking/FTE

TLDR: you either did not read or did not comprehend my post.

[jpetrick]

Source of this information?

[ArumTP]

No "hard mode". Classic mode only. Stuff across the board needs proper tune.

Those dragons(woushi) are some serious BS.

Bags is something like something we just never remembered. Resist gear pointless is something that all feels wrong.

[Daldaen]

Source of this information?

This. Where are you getting this information Raev?

[Coffee]

recharging on red

[Nirgon]

I'm sure this won't totally ruin upcoming guild's chances at all vs the people who've farmed for years

[Raev]

Dragon Fear: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1837980

Avatar of War Cooldown: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1830173&postcount=38


[Thu Mar 19 19:23:09 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 623 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 19:23:21 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 650 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 19:23:34 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 330 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 19:23:46 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 623 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 19:23:59 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 427 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 19:24:23 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 650 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 20:10:44 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 31 points of
[Thu Mar 19 20:10:56 2015] You resist the Molten Breath spell!
[Thu Mar 19 20:11:08 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 352 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 20:11:20 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 646 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 20:11:33 2015] You resist the Molten Breath spell!
[Thu Mar 19 20:11:45 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 469 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 20:11:58 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 650 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 20:12:11 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 347 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 20:12:25 2015] Your body combusts as the lava hits you. You have taken 650 points of damage.
[Thu Mar 19 20:12:37 2015] You resist the Molten Breath spell!


Sontalak HP: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185968

My preference is straight up classic: the sign on the door says "Classic EQ". Contrary to nostalgia-blinded oldschoolers like Treats, true classic = 60 people with Kunark gear smoke everything day 1.

If the devs want to make things more challenging, I'm fine with that. I'm all about strategies and planning over poopsocking and FTE.

But right now it feels to me like the devs are trying to have their cake and eat it to: pretending to be classic while in reality sneaking in as many adjustments as they can to things that aren't well documented. I feel like this is the worst of both worlds. Most importantly, we lose out on a true classic server. It's one thing to say 'hey, we have the code/data to make a true classic server, but we're choosing to dial up the difficulty'. But right now we don't have that. And secondly, it means that the relative difficulty of mobs is hugely skewed. Tormax is *way* easier than Klandicar right now.

[Teeroyoyort]

As far as HP values are concerned. Before the mod rod nerf, all the mobs had way jacked up HPs in classic.

[Daldaen]

Unless you have direct quotes from the devs saying they intend to go non-classic, this just seems like more evidence that people didn't test enough during a year-long Beta.

We need Blue closed down and Beta forced for a few weeks with constant respawns of raid mobs and patches to modify mob stats/resists.

[ArumTP]

I'm sure this won't totally ruin upcoming guild's chances at all vs the people who've farmed for years

concur. thats what a proposed hard mode feels like.

[Ele]

So because some bug reports aren't address yet it is a conspiracy by the devs to ramp up difficulty on Velious bosses?

Recall Kunark, e.g. the first Trakanon kill on blue was bugged all to hell: 1) did not have a working AE and 2) charm was freaking OP. Then over the next four years Trak casted spells, then he didn't, then he did, then he didn't see invis, then he did, Shroom touch fixed and broken again, blinding, not blinding, aggro radius fixes, model size fixes, etc. Venril Sathir was the same deal his class had to be modified and we had to fix NPC riposte procs, both years after Kunark released.

Whether or not mobs are "classic" or "tuned" (for four years of Kunark farming and complete guilds of level 60s), the kills and raids won't mean much since Blue and Red will essentially be beta testing all this content for years even though the actual beta server has been up for over a year now.

[Raev]

They had classic HP last summer. <shrug>

[Nirgon]

Then over the next four years Trak casted spells, then he didn't, then he did, then he didn't see invis, then he did, Shroom touch fixed and broken again, blinding, not blinding, aggro radius fixes, model size fixes, etc.

pras it

[pasi]

Does Sontalak having north of 100k HP mean he is susceptible to Porlos's Fury here? Almost seems like a nerf if he is hovering just over 100k.

[wycca]

Does Sontalak having north of 100k HP mean he is susceptible to Porlos's Fury here? Almost seems like a nerf if he is hovering just over 100k.

He's not on the dragonbane classic list, so he won't be able to be hit by it regardless.

[Sylexis]

We could just have every raid mob AE deathtouch for the first month or two, to give it that classic "feel" of the content being tough when you first get there.

[Misek84]

I think people are confusing classic diffuculty with progressive server difficulty.

[Lazie]

I just think we have a case of overreacting here is all.

[Tickle-me-tiggle]

No "hard mode". Classic mode only. Stuff across the board needs proper tune.

Those dragons(woushi) are some serious BS.

Bags is something like something we just never remembered. Resist gear pointless is something that all feels wrong.


You do realize wuoshi was designed to be done by a SMALLER group, as in it's easier the less people that you bring.

[Daldaen]

You do realize wuoshi was designed to be done by a SMALLER group, as in it's easier the less people that you bring.

This makes no sense.

Nothing in Classic EQ is easier with fewer people unless you're surrounded by idiots training you.

In Luclin in an event like Shei where death adds spawn, sure. But Classic-Velious, nothing is easier with fewer people. Zerg is the name of the game. Thus the IB-ATeam merger and the TMO-Lord Bob merger. Expect to see more mergers and alliances in Velious. Numbers will win fights especially if resists continue to not have a huge impact.

[Treats]

This makes no sense.

Nothing in Classic EQ is easier with fewer people unless you're surrounded by idiots training you.

In Luclin in an event like Shei where death adds spawn, sure. But Classic-Velious, nothing is easier with fewer people. Zerg is the name of the game. Thus the IB-ATeam merger and the TMO-Lord Bob merger. Expect to see more mergers and alliances in Velious. Numbers will win fights especially if resists continue to not have a huge impact.

Gear was the name of the game.

Zerging did not really work, hence why the 72 player raid limit was introduced in Planes of Power from the Rallos Zek fiasco.

[Raev]

Numbers will win fights especially if resists continue to not have a huge impact.

This. Having max TOV north gear won't mean anything when you get hit consistently at the resist cap.

[Daldaen]

Gear was the name of the game.

Zerging did not really work, hence why the 72 player raid limit was introduced in Planes of Power from the Rallos Zek fiasco.

Zerging did work and PoP didn't have a raid cap of 72, that was changed in LoY (PoPs raid cap was 60 because the raid window only allowed for 10 group leaders as opposed to the 12 it displayed... WOMP WOMP!). The real way they fixed zerging was punishing mechanics and instances limiting player numbers. PoTime before it was instanced was able to limit player numbers as well, but it was its own sort of "instance" in that it required players zoning in to trigger timers etc.

BUT that aside. Zerging will work. If tomorrow BDA, Rampage, and Taken all merged, and had 200 players raiding day 1. I don't care what AE there is. Mobs will be dropping like flies. AEs have set timers and none are able to one shot level 60s. Having raids of upwards of 100 members, which I don't doubt some guilds and alliances will have (Gimpatron, TMO, CSG, Rampage, Taken and BDA have all fielded raids of upwards of 70 members for 5 year old Kunark shit), will be the determining factor in fights where resists become irrelevant due to resist code.

I'm classic as shit. I LOVE that resists are hard capped at 255. But there needs to be some balancing when it comes to resists. Both for players being able to land on red con mobs and red con raid mobs sticking every AE on players.

Wycca has a few threads on fire resistances. Dain, Vindi, Statue are all resisting far too often for what they should be. Level 70 Raid bosses are sticking their non-Lure/Dragon AEs (those without -Resist checks) every time for full durations at 255 resist on level 60 raiders. This isn't correct. Raev has a post on this.

May 30th is a bit too soon to be launching this if we want it launched in such a way that we will be reliving a classic experience. Thus far in beta, they've done a great job with the limited testing that players here have done. But when it comes to resists specifically, there needs to be a major revamp. There has to be a forced beta week with a few different builds of the resist code tested out so that it can be ironed out to a point where at 255 against level 70 mobs, your level 60 raider will be hit maybe half the time and many of those fears are short duration. Where the mobs which were historically easy to nuke with a certain resist are getting hit as they should.

And ideally, if bard stacking could be implemented in some manner (I know this is a long shot). Maybe just something as simple as changing the slots on Occlussion such that it conflicts with nothing, like it did back in classic, would be a great start.

As said before, these classic raids of a decent balance of players with great gear, resists and strategy could down most all raid mobs with raids of 50 players. On any AE fight where 90% of your raid is getting feared and most of them are getting mad duration fears, even when all are 200-255 MR... That 50 man raid no longer has a shot. It now requires a much larger raid of zerglings who just claw at the mob until it dies. No amount of resist gear will matter when 255 MR raiders are taking full duration fears one after another.

[wycca]

As far as PC spells on NPC - Raid mob resists definitely need more testing. Just hasn't been alot of systematic testing of those, and to be fair, without that, it's hard to make a solid case for the GM's to modify. So far the stuff with the most feedback has been tweaked to be decent (ie MR on slowable mobs is the prime example - altho all of them certainly havent been tested), the other resists...

I will say that ToV trash resists look pretty good - been in both NToV and EToV and as a wizard & watching our debuffers those seem good.

As far as NPCs casting on PCs - Meh.

[Raev]

As far as NPCs casting on PCs - Meh.

You want it to be harder than classic so that not everything is stomped on day 1 and the R guilds are completely screwed. I don't really like this: the sign on the door says Classic EverQuest. But the whole point of this thread is that if we are going to deliberately depart from classic we should do it in a systematic way rather than 'oh well, we just won't fix the resists'.

[dbouya]

velious raids were a bit harder than kunark raids and a lot of guilds in 2001 expanded their roster quite a bit to have more people in attendence for the velious raids than they'd needed for kunark.

our guild in particular adopted another small guild for kael raids.


the only real reason people didn't zerg was that in 2001 if you brought 100people to a raid the game crashed (either players clients or the server itself).