Warrior dual wield combo on a budget

[Lorian]

For generating enough aggro on a budget mid-teens and up, is Skyfire plus Vilks a good DW combo? Shammy slow is difficult, but I can usually taunt it back. Would there be any point changing the OH Vilks for the more traditional GJB (slower, no AC but higher damage)? Or anything else?

Currently lv 16, the main stats are someting like STR 132, STA 108, DEX 115. Tried Goblin Skullcrusher and it procs like maximum twice on average if I solo a dark blue, in a group mobs usually die too quickly for even one proc to go off. Procing weapons that works at this level seems to be useless for anything, do you agree?

[Itap]

Once you reach 20, Staff of Battle (http://wiki.project1999.com/Staff_of_Battle) will take you to 37 when Yak weapons start to proc. I had minimal trouble maintaining aggro with this weapon during my 20's and 30's (I did have haste, though).

There aren't many options to choose from as far as proccing weapons go pre-37 since the ratios are just terrible, and you will depend solely on weapon procs for aggro.

During Velious, a few options open up, such as Poisoned Whip (http://wiki.project1999.com/Poisoned_Whip) (procs at level 1), Venom Axe (http://wiki.project1999.com/Venomous_Axe_of_the_Velium_Brood)(Procs at level 1), WESS (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wrapped_Entropy_Serpent_Spine) (Procs at level 1), Wavecrasher (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wavecrasher)(procs at level 1) among others. Theres are just the tradeable options.

[Vorkon]

As someone who just rode the untwinked warrior route to 37. You just need to accept unless you out level the group you are going to have aggro issues to some degree.
Taunt sucks, lack of proc weapons, and over all dps are meh (skill caps ftw). I hit 37 last night and picked up 2 Yaks and haven't had many issues with aggro, when at 36 it was hit or miss.

Haste and low delay weapons or as Itap mentioned Staff of Battle will help out a bunch. I tried the 2 Obsidian Shard route about 50-75pp a piece 6/25 Obsidian Shatter but didn't have much success.

You'll likely be grouping with twinked out characters, Pal/Sk's with snap aggro, low level rogues with epics, and you just need to gut through it.

[Itap]

I tried the 2 Obsidian Shard route about 50-75pp a piece 6/25 Obsidian Shatter but didn't have much success.

Neither did I. I advise against this route to all future warriors. The terrible ratio makes them obsolete in groups with epic rogues, twinked monks, and trigger happy casters.

[Lorian]

Thanks! Haste is no option until I can get into Velks and get some handwraps myself, but I should be able to farm enough funds for a SoB by the time I pass lv 20.

With no haste will SoB generate more hate than the SoS/Vilks combo?

I've realised non-fat warriors level very fast (16 levels in 3 days moderate playing) so by the time Velious is out I'll be at least 40-ish (or I'll eat my hat) so yaks should proc.

Those weapons you linked are all awesome btw!!! I wonder how many seconds on average the Frenzied Velium Stalker will be alive on this server? I remember killing him and getting the wraps on live, but I had no idea he dropped the equally awesome axe!

[Itap]

SoB aggro comes from potential damage, not actual. At level 20, there is nothing that can match it, plat for plat.

[Vorkon]

I'm pretty sure its has something to do with 1h damage caps up until 40ish, and the fact in your mid teens you aren't getting a ton of DW check/attacks based on the skill being so low. So a 2h at level cap will be hitting more, and harder then a 1H at level cap (+the DW skill cap on the offhand attack check).

Kind of like the Taunt skill not landing all the time due to the skill cap.

Warriors are one of if not the most gear dependent classes. Don't really seem to shine until later levels, the rest is just a grind.

[maskedmelon]

SoB aggro comes from potential damage, not actual. At level 20, there is nothing that can match it, plat for plat.

^ This. Mellee aggro is the same on every swing for a given weapon, whether it misses, hits for max or hits for nothing. The better the weapon ratio, the better the aggro. Combine his with the fact that dual wield is wildly unsuccessful at low levels and it becomes clear why SoB is so aggroliscious.

[Lorian]

^ This. Mellee aggro is the same on every swing for a given weapon, whether it misses, hits for max or hits for nothing. The better the weapon ratio, the better the aggro. Combine his with the fact that dual wield is wildly unsuccessful at low levels and it becomes clear why SoB is so aggroliscious.

Ahhh! :) If that is the case would not going with the best ratio (non-proc) even past 37 be an option?

[Itap]

Ahhh! :) If that is the case would not going with the best ratio (non-proc) even past 37 be an option?

Once you can have decent ratio weapons that also proc high aggro spells, potential damage is less desired over snap aggro.

This was the reason Sarnak Hammer (http://wiki.project1999.com/Sarnak_Warhammer) + Snare Whip (http://wiki.project1999.com/Silken_Whip_of_Ensnaring) was/is such a popular weapon set pre-epics.

[kaev]

Ahhh! :) If that is the case would not going with the best ratio (non-proc) even past 37 be an option?

No:
* 2h agro has a negative modifier (-30% iirc), so SoB edge over 1hander not as big as ratio makes it look
* Melee agro is affected by primary hand bonus (or at least it was on live, have not parsed it here) so again SoB edge over fast 1hander is not nearly as big as it looks once you're higher level
* Dual wield fires way more often as you skill it up, off-hand 1hander doesn't get primary hand bonus but also doesn't get 2h malus
* High agro procs (stun, stun+dd, & poison dots) are huge

My 50 warrior holds agro far better with Sarnak Warhammer + Trochillc's Skean than with his Staff of Battle.


Although, it's also true that if your group is just crushing mobs due to the usual massive twinking you could just get a caster or hybrid to root everything and you can hold agro bare fisted with maybe an occasional slam or shield bash for style points.

[maskedmelon]

Ahhh! :) If that is the case would not going with the best ratio (non-proc) even past 37 be an option?

If you are only comparing weapons of the same type with no proc, then yes. However things change when comparing 2h vs dual wield. As dual wield becomes more reliable, 2 poorer ratio weapons will surpass a single superior ratio weapon. Primary hand damage bonus also exerts a disproportionately favorable effect on 1h weapons, because the flat damage bonus represents a greater percentage of the lower average damage weapons. Additionally, dual wielding is the only effective means of increasing frequency of procs since their activation rate is set at x times per minute based on the character's dexterity.

[maskedmelon]

No:
* 2h agro has a negative modifier (-30% iirc),


Well that's a new one on me. Source?

[kaev]

Well that's a new one on me. Source?

Don't know if it's possible to find all the parsing reported on The Steel Warrior back in the day (and maybe the SK board too, forget the name.)

As far as p99 goes, I'm pretty sure I saw it mentioned in a thread on these boards reporting on some agro parsing, but was some time ago (2 years?) and I don't recall thread title or OP's handle. Might hunt for the p99 thread later.

[kaev]

As far as in-game experience goes, Jade Mace (9/18) + Lamentation (9/19) pulled agro more often than Woodsman's Staff (31/35) with a 47 Ranger. Without a sizeable modifier of some sort I'd expect Woodsman's Staff to very noticeably out-agro that DW combo. (I'm not certain of the current 2h bonus calc, but a quick histogram of my ranger's combat logs from L47 shows a peak at 73, so it appears that 11 was the bonus he had with Woodsman's staff at L47.)

Jade Mace primary at 47: ((9*2+7)/18) * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]
Lamentation secondary: (9*2/19) * 0.[dualWieldPercent]
Woodsman's Staff at 47: ((31*2+?11?)/35) * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]


So: (25/18 * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]) + (18/19 * 0.[dualWieldPercent])
vs. (73/35 * 1.[doubleAttackPercent])


Testing was not even vaguely scientific, just noticing how often I pulled agro off the tank in normal group play (i.e. almost never unless I cast or dual wield.)

[maskedmelon]

Interesting. I agree that on ratios and accounting for DW, the star should generate superior agggro or second and if your anecdotal findings suggest otherwise something is amiss ^^ shorter hate increments certainly play a roll though to what effect cannot be clear without considering the tanks weapons as well.

For example, if a warrior is wielding dual CoT 11/25 and you engage the mob .5 seconds after him:

At t0 warrior has at worst (11*2+5)=27 and at best (11*2+5)*4-10=98
At t.5 DW you has at worst (9*2+5)=23 and at best (9*2+5)*4-10=92
At t2.3 DW you has at worst 46 and at best 184
At t2.5 warrior has at worst 54 and at best 196
At t4.0 WS you has at worst (31*2+11)=73 and at best 73*2=146
At t4.1 DW you has at worst 54 and at best 276 <large chance of aggro jump
At t5.0 warrior has at worst 81 and at best 294
At t5.9 DW you has at worst 72 and at best 368 <larger chance of aggro jump
At t7.5 warrior has at worst 96 and at best 384
At t7.5 WS you has at worst 146 and at best 292

Obviously the chance of DW/DA is going to pull averages at any given point down from potential maxes, but the point is that the more frequent swings create the opportunity for 2 atks I the time of the tank's 1 if you have superior delay weapons plus more frequent atks create more frequent opportunities to catch up assuming the RNG favors you over the war. Essentially aggro is more stable with less boom bust. Now if you were to get 2-3 atk rounds in with the staff before others engaged, there'd be no catching you.

[Lorian]

Is there a cheaper alternative to the SoB for aggro? Raising cash being a lv 20 warrior is painfully slow, at this rate I'd be lv 30 before I have enough money. Managed to scrounge up close to 700 between 16-20 but needed to spend most of it to upgrade from my bronze as I was constantly encumbered.

I guess I might have unrealistic expectations; should I park my warrior for now and find a cash camp with my lv 24 shammy to get some funds? Or should I ignore this whole conversation and be happy with Nathsar Greatsword and SoS/Vilks combo. I might have to go go for the last option as long as people still want to group with me. :)

[lecompte]

As far as in-game experience goes, Jade Mace (9/18) + Lamentation (9/19) pulled agro more often than Woodsman's Staff (31/35) with a 47 Ranger. Without a sizeable modifier of some sort I'd expect Woodsman's Staff to very noticeably out-agro that DW combo. (I'm not certain of the current 2h bonus calc, but a quick histogram of my ranger's combat logs from L47 shows a peak at 73, so it appears that 11 was the bonus he had with Woodsman's staff at L47.)

Jade Mace primary at 47: ((9*2+7)/18) * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]
Lamentation secondary: (9*2/19) * 0.[dualWieldPercent]
Woodsman's Staff at 47: ((31*2+?11?)/35) * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]


So: (25/18 * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]) + (18/19 * 0.[dualWieldPercent])
vs. (73/35 * 1.[doubleAttackPercent])


Testing was not even vaguely scientific, just noticing how often I pulled agro off the tank in normal group play (i.e. almost never unless I cast or dual wield.)

The way I intellectualize it is, you get 1 pt of agro for the attack (hit or miss!) and 1pt of agro per pt of damage. That is why super fast weapons will take agro over slower two handers -- if the damage difference isn't too huge. On my ranger, I would pull agro 59 using jagged sword of mourning (offhand) + fayguard parrying dagger (mainhand).

I would recommend a fast mainhand and a heavy offhand. Fist of Zek offhand and... something fast mainhand.

[Lorian]

I would recommend a fast mainhand and a heavy offhand. Fist of Zek offhand and... something fast mainhand.

I like your reasoning, it fits better in with my budget! :)

[Kutsumo]

I like your reasoning, it fits better in with my budget! :)

Just make sure you're still over 75 agi if you decide on the fist of zek. Jagged Long Sword is a good alternative. I grouped with wars quite a bit while leveling up my monk and rogue - and the ones using a high DPS combo seemed to have much more consistent and solid agro than the guys using proc weapons like yaks (sub 50). Maybe wurmslayer + jagged longsword would work well.

[Lorian]

Just make sure you're still over 75 agi if you decide on the fist of zek. Jagged Long Sword is a good alternative. I grouped with wars quite a bit while leveling up my monk and rogue - and the ones using a high DPS combo seemed to have much more consistent and solid agro than the guys using proc weapons like yaks (sub 50). Maybe wurmslayer + jagged longsword would work well.

Thanks for the advice, and agree! With the huge minus stats on AGI to compensate for, the Fist of Zek would be an expensive investment. Jagged long Sword is actually doable with a few days grinding! :)

[Warmonger]

Would jagged long sword be best used in off hand or main hand?

[Kutsumo]

Would jagged long sword be best used in off hand or main hand?

That depends on what other weapons you have. If it's better than your other weapons in mainhand, then it's good to use in mainhand. I wouldn't hesitate to use JLS in mainhand from 10-50 assuming you don't have a wurmslayer.

[Warmonger]

Would a jagged long sword shimmering partisan combo be too slow? Or should I go with green jade broad sword?

[TheFishyOne]

If you're looking to keep up son your skills while still generating meaningful threat, Cane of the Tranquil, Green Jade Broadsword, and Jarsath Trident can be had for cheap. Put the trident in your MH, and switch between the cane and GJB as needed. The GJB does more damage, but both generate the same amount of threat.