Why do people seem to hate luclin so much?

[mr_jon3s]

I myself had a lot of fun with luclin. But I see the devs hate it and am just wondering why?

Alternate abilities made it so alot of classes were useful and gave you a reason to keep playing your main even after you hit 60.

The bazaar made shoping a breeze just turn your mule into an npc while your away doing real life stuff.

KEI the greatest spell ever made.

New race and class.

Bunch of raid targets.

New leveling spots.

I understand that bane weapons and lucid shards were a pain in the ass. Also the raid targets had a bunch of hp.

[Rayzor84]

I think KEI should be added in velious.

[Daldaen]

People Q-Q that it drew away from the fantasy realm.

Which is dumb. A planet having a moon and having wizard using spires to teleport to this other moon sounds like it fits into Fantasy as well. Not that different than finding a new continent like Kunark or Velious.

The new models I'm not a fan of them but they're optional.

People have their memories too tainted by Vex Thal's dumb raids and Vex Thal's Shard Quest (which - IMO - Was awesome). So much awesome content.

[Whirled]

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.staticflickr.com%2F6120%2F63 77976535_65801e00c8_z.jpg&f=1

Cats on the moon did not sit well with some from what I have read here.

[Vorkon]

I actually enjoyed Ssra raiding, as it was really the first time the encounters were more then push mob into wall, los the healers from aoe and multiple tanks on multiple guards, etc..

Bazaar killed of the haggling and ecommons Somalian market feeling. Which killed off interaction.

I don't think that the beastlords really panned out the way the should have, the space cat people seemed like an after thought.

I've got mixed feelings on the aa's, basic things like speed increases and higher hp, base defense things were nice (as a warrior), but being fully raid geared I ended up doing things solo as I could do it all myself instead of the player interaction I had being forced into a group.

Being able to use the nexus to port killed the expansiveness of how large the world was.

I thought it effectively killed off a lot of the "classic" feel. Though I did enjoy a lot of the raid encounters. I think if they hit up releasing some custom content after velious, some of the encounters/zones should be retooled from Luclin (maybe some from PoP too)

[khanable]

because soe catered to the lowest denominator starting at the release of SoL

cat people were dumb
bazaar ruined trading
new graphics looked like shit
new ui was dumb
mounts were dumb
porting to nexus was dumb

[EndofLine]

because soe catered to the lowest denominator starting at the release of SoL

cat people were dumb
bazaar ruined trading
new graphics looked like shit
new ui was dumb
mounts were dumb
porting to nexus was dumb

Check, check, Check, Yup Check, Super Check, and... I'm indifferent.

That more or less covers it yup.

I beta tested Luclin and it it didn't feel like the Everquest I loved. It was more a feeling thing than anything. I know people loved Luclin, and especially Beastlords, and maybe I'm silly for not liking change, but Luclin just took Everquest down a road I just want' interested in taking with it. Kunark and Velious both kept the spirit of classic.

Luclin tried to change everquest, but Kunark and Velious tried to expand upon it.

[jpetrick]

Skip luclin. Launch planes of power with no PoK books.

[charlie_murphy]

Check, check, Check, Yup Check, Super Check, and... I'm indifferent.

That more or less covers it yup.

I beta tested Luclin and it it didn't feel like the Everquest I loved. It was more a feeling thing than anything. I know people loved Luclin, and especially Beastlords, and maybe I'm silly for not liking change, but Luclin just took Everquest down a road I just want' interested in taking with it. Kunark and Velious both kept the spirit of classic.

Luclin tried to change everquest, but Kunark and Velious tried to expand upon it.

I didn't mind it so much, but it definitely introduced a lazier play style to EQ.

[wormed]

Mounts weren't Luclin, were they? I don't even remember mounts at all in EQ and I played to PoP.

Maybe I just selectively forgot them because that'd be lame in EQ.

[Daldaen]

because soe catered to the lowest denominator starting at the release of SoL

cat people were dumb
bazaar ruined trading
new graphics looked like shit
new ui was dumb
mounts were dumb
porting to nexus was dumb

Vah Shir were dumb, truth
Bazaar GREATLY enhanced trading. I hate dealing with people who are concerned about getting a cheap deal. Set price and forget it. This was so glorious. EC Tunnel is neat in that people sit there, but I absolutely hate interacting with 90% of them.
New graphics... Meh. The player models I'm not a fan of the content was good though.
New UI... Meh. People on this server use way worse UIs than the Luclin one. I will be so glad the day all your fancy UI features on this server get nuked.
Mounts, wrong. Not having to sit inbetween every cast to med was great. Especially fantastic when boxing so you are always medding characters
Porting to nexus is no different than porting to WC. Nexus ports took 30~ minutes to recycle. No different than taking a boat (which many people refuse to do here and expect a port from butcher to WC.)

[Erydan Ouragan]

Several reasons.

Lots hated the bazaar. They say it killed the buyer-seller social interaction. How is that a bad thing? I don't know. I guess people like to lowball with ridiculous offers. I've never had a meaningful interaction while trading, because i treat EC like i treat Wal-Mart. I get in, but my shit, and get out. I don't try to make friends with the cashier.

Lots hated the spires and easier transportation, too. I guess a 30 minutes round trip is too easy. I've never had any meaningful social interaction with a porter either. I'm polite and friendly and i tip decently considering my meager financial means, but i've never had a real conversation with someone that ported me.

I often see the "aliens and spaceship" argument, which is downright parroting the WoW argument when TBC came out. There is no spaceship in Luclin, that was world of warcraft. I guess people need their orcs/frogloks/kobolds to be happy.

The long grind of Luclin is my favorite argument, because it tells a lot about people. Most common complaints heard are "VT shard farming is too long" and "Mobs have too many hitpoints and take forever to die, so it's boring". Now that is funny.

See, the thing is most p99 players like to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they're "oldschool and hardcore". WoW and other modern MMOs are too easy, they say. There's no challenge, no sense of accomplishment. That's pretty much bullshit, because lots of people refuse to group with hybrids, the xp being too slowed down too much. I've seen people in EC ask for a port to Lavastorm, which is 2 zones away.

P99 players are huge fucking casuals at heart. If something takes too long to kill, then it's boring and not efficient enough. They spend the hardest and longest part of the road to 60 in Chardok, paying for AE pulls instead.

So the thought of VT shard farming, Ssra bane weapons molds farming and actually spending more than 15 seconds per mob while clearing Vex Thal trash, is horrible.

They like it hard, but not too hard. Just hard enough to congratulate themselves for playing "old-school EQ", but not so much to the point where they actually have to pay attention to whats happening in the game because then, they can't watch netflix at the same time.

Luclin absolutely rocks.

[Daldaen]

Several reasons.

Lots hated the bazaar. They say it killed the buyer-seller social interaction. How is that a bad thing? I don't know. I guess people like to lowball with ridiculous offers. I've never had a meaningful interaction while trading, because i treat EC like i treat Wal-Mart. I get in, but my shit, and get out. I don't try to make friends with the cashier.

Lots hated the spires and easier transportation, too. I guess a 30 minutes round trip is too easy. I've never had any meaningful social interaction with a porter either. I'm polite and friendly and i tip decently considering my meager financial means, but i've never had a real conversation with someone that ported me.

I often see the "aliens and spaceship" argument, which is downright parroting the WoW argument when TBC came out. There is no spaceship in Luclin, that was world of warcraft. I guess people need their orcs/frogloks/kobolds to be happy.

The long grind of Luclin is my favorite argument, because it tells a lot about people. Most common complaints heard are "VT shard farming is too long" and "Mobs have too many hitpoints and take forever to die, so it's boring". Now that is funny.

See, the thing is most p99 players like to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they're "oldschool and hardcore". WoW and other modern MMOs are too easy, they say. There's no challenge, no sense of accomplishment. That's pretty much bullshit, because lots of people refuse to group with hybrids, the xp being too slowed down too much. I've seen people in EC ask for a port to Lavastorm, which is 2 zones away.

P99 players are huge fucking casuals at heart. If something takes too long to kill, then it's boring and not efficient enough. They spend the hardest and longest part of the road to 60 in Chardok, paying for AE pulls instead.

So the thought of VT shard farming, Ssra bane weapons molds farming and actually spending more than 15 seconds per mob while clearing Vex Thal trash, is horrible.

They like it hard, but not too hard. Just hard enough to congratulate themselves for playing "old-school EQ", but not so much to the point where they actually have to pay attention to whats happening in the game because then, they can't watch netflix at the same time.

Luclin absolutely rocks.
This guy gets it.

[Ella`Ella]

because soe catered to the lowest denominator starting at the release of SoL

cat people were dumb
bazaar ruined trading
new graphics looked like shit
new ui was dumb
mounts were dumb
porting to nexus was dumb

P99 staff catered to the lowest denominator when they added the loot pinata rules.

[Cookiefist]

Space ships are classic. See North Qeynos!

[Vaderman]

I've always been a firm believer that Luclin was largely unfinished when released and simply bandaided later.

It has the foundation of another Velious. It just seems like they never had time to incorporate quests/storylines into the multiple city factions on the moon. They built their zones, placed the mobs, made loot tables but forgot to inject life into it or something.

The only part of it that was truly done was SSRA. All of the events are awesome. Imagine if all of Luclin had this same level of effort/attention/polish. Everything else in the expansion seemed like the mobs got placed, deadline got hit so those mobs just became walls of HP.

If P99 wanted to do something really special they could finish Luclin and put it much more in line with the style of Velious.

[khanable]

P99 staff catered to the lowest denominator when they added the loot pinata rules.

#FFAvelious2015

[liveitup1216]

Most people are down with the pain in the ass stuff of Luclin like keys and super long/hard VT. What we're not down with is the stream line bullshit: spires, bazaar, cats and aliens, those atrocious graphics, etc.

Most people have love or appreciation/respect for Ssra and VT. Literally everything else sucked total anus.

[khanable]

Vah Shir were dumb, truth
Bazaar GREATLY enhanced trading. I hate dealing with people who are concerned about getting a cheap deal. Set price and forget it. This was so glorious. EC Tunnel is neat in that people sit there, but I absolutely hate interacting with 90% of them.
New graphics... Meh. The player models I'm not a fan of the content was good though.
New UI... Meh. People on this server use way worse UIs than the Luclin one. I will be so glad the day all your fancy UI features on this server get nuked.
Mounts, wrong. Not having to sit inbetween every cast to med was great. Especially fantastic when boxing so you are always medding characters
Porting to nexus is no different than porting to WC. Nexus ports took 30~ minutes to recycle. No different than taking a boat (which many people refuse to do here and expect a port from butcher to WC.)

Meh, EC tunnel was a special place for many people. You may not have liked it, but that doesn't change the fact that many people did love it. And they essentially gutted that special place for a lot of people in favor of AFK vendoring.

Mounts were not visible or usable unless you used the new graphics IIRC, making them ultra-dumb.

[Vaderman]

disable the afk vendoring feature and the bazaar becomes a nice hub of interactive commerce complete with tradeskill basics, banking, vendors and an arena.

[Nibblewitz]

I personally had never played on live, and was dragged to this server by some of my friends. The only MMO I had played previously was World of Warcraft.

It really didn't take me very long to get hooked on p99. I immediately appreciated that classes were not balanced, and teamwork was required to accomplish things. I quit playing WoW because there was no community left; dungeon finders and raid finders made it possible to log in, experience content, and never interact with everyone.

So I hear, the Luclin expansion added in some features that surely increased quality of life, but to the detriment of the community.

[Erydan Ouragan]

I personally had never played on live, and was dragged to this server by some of my friends. The only MMO I had played previously was World of Warcraft.

It really didn't take me very long to get hooked on p99. I immediately appreciated that classes were not balanced, and teamwork was required to accomplish things. I quit playing WoW because there was no community left; dungeon finders and raid finders made it possible to log in, experience content, and never interact with everyone.

So I hear, the Luclin expansion added in some features that surely increased quality of life, but to the detriment of the community.

Depends on what "community" we're talking about.

People were still using ports to get around, as they were more convenient than waiting 15 minutes for a spire port, then wait for another 15 minutes in the nexus to get ported elsewhere.

The bazaar AFK pissed off a lot of people, mainly those who liked to tunnelquest. You could still play the market and price gouge, but people liked to haggle.

Community is what you make of it. I'm a friendly guy who likes to chat, i've had wall of text conversations and met tons of people on p99, but none of them were traders or porters, so i really don't get that "Luclin killed social interation" argument.

[Daldaen]

Meh, EC tunnel was a special place for many people. You may not have liked it, but that doesn't change the fact that many people did love it. And they essentially gutted that special place for a lot of people in favor of AFK vendoring.

Mounts were not visible or usable unless you used the new graphics IIRC, making them ultra-dumb.

They were viewable with old models if you toggled on new elementals and horses. But they looked stupid with old models (which is to be expected). Just made playing a caster and boxing casters far more convenient. Plus it added a great platinum sink.

EC meh, many servers used NFP and GFay. Bazaar is almost no different. There may be a few more AFK people. But there are currently a huge number of AFKers in Tunnel.

The arguments against Bazaar AFK traders, PoK books and instancing always seem to come down to the people disliking these changes due to other players no longer being forced to interact with them. Heaven forbid dudes sell stuff without having to deal with resellers and lowballers. Or dudes having the opportunity to travel easily themselves instead of insisting on inconveniencing another player to assist them in their traveling. Or not being able to permacamp a rare spawn and be able to prevent others from attaining that item.

Player interaction isn't inhibited by these changes unless you choose to let it. No meaningful interaction ever occurs when I sell something or when I port someone. Sure sometimes I may be nice and give someone a good deal because they're new or super classic. But that guy will have forgotten our interaction the next day.

You can still auction stuff off and get ports and set up pickup groups in static content. Or you can choose to use the more convenient features. I'm a proponent of more choice and more freedom.

Ron Paul 2012.

[billhollins]

Space ships are classic. See North Qeynos!

[Erydan Ouragan]

They were viewable with old models if you toggled on new elementals and horses. But they looked stupid with old models (which is to be expected). Just made playing a caster and boxing casters far more convenient. Plus it added a great platinum sink.

EC meh, many servers used NFP and GFay. Bazaar is almost no different. There may be a few more AFK people. But there are currently a huge number of AFKers in Tunnel.

The arguments against Bazaar AFK traders, PoK books and instancing always seem to come down to the people disliking these changes due to other players no longer being forced to interact with them. Heaven forbid dudes sell stuff without having to deal with resellers and lowballers. Or dudes having the opportunity to travel easily themselves instead of insisting on inconveniencing another player to assist them in their traveling. Or not being able to permacamp a rare spawn and be able to prevent others from attaining that item.

Player interaction isn't inhibited by these changes unless you choose to let it. No meaningful interaction ever occurs when I sell something or when I port someone. Sure sometimes I may be nice and give someone a good deal because they're new or super classic. But that guy will have forgotten our interaction the next day.

You can still auction stuff off and get ports and set up pickup groups in static content. Or you can choose to use the more convenient features. I'm a proponent of more choice and more freedom.

Ron Paul 2012.

This.

Apparently people form rock-solid friendships with people that port them. We must be doing something wrong :confused:

[iruinedyourday]

How come people dont want to put Metal Gear Sold into p99? I like metal gear sold.

you can hide in boxes.

that preditor camo ninja suit is awesome

you can hide bodies in lockers

Bunch a bosses.

New snake, old snakes, and young snakes.

I understand that the game cube version wasnt very good, but still all the otherswere.

[khanable]

Ya'll keep thinking social interaction has to be some sort of grand philosophical debate between two players or something

Just having to rely on someone else for a port or having to actually interact with players selling things made the world feel alive. You start taking stuff like that away and it just becomes a single player game that other people inhabit.

[n8four]

I've heard people commenting on how AA 'trivialized' prior content, taking away from the classic zones and what EQ was. AA was one of the best systems I've seen in an mmo that gave the players something else to help progress their character. New raids/content with new gear innately 'trivializes' prior content. Perhaps the argument is that some people never wanted new content and just wanted to continue camping the same bosses/dungeons infinitely.

If they introduce custom content, I don't see how they would stay away from trivializing what already exists. Unless they add new zones with different mobs and the same loot table. What's the point?

[Daldaen]

Ya'll keep thinking social interaction has to be some sort of grand philosophical debate between two players or something

Just having to rely on someone else for a port or having to actually interact with players selling things made the world feel alive. You start taking stuff like that away and it just becomes a single player game that other people inhabit.

Buying SoW potions from a shaman auctioning in EC or an AFK shaman in Bazaar makes no difference. Many interactions in EC neither participant even says anything. Just green accepting of trade and deal is done. So I fail to see the problem?

The world is alive just as much with AFK traders as it is live traders. I'm not going to go solo Trakanon because of some AFK dudes in Bazaar. I still need 30 Neckbeards with sufficient Hot Pocket reserves to shit in a sock, stare at a wall and Batphone after 16 hours that a dragon has spawned that we must slay. I miss the classic days of known spawn times on mobs. Variance is the devil.

[Orruar]

It says something about the hermit-like population here when they consider social interaction via ports and EC trading to be some kind of benefit. I'd rather save myself 30 minutes of my time that I can later spend talking to an actual friend/family member. Not that I actually do that, as I just spend those 30 minutes looking at porn, but the point stands. Trading and porting is meaningful social interaction for those who don't know what meaningful social interaction is.

[Orruar]

Several reasons.

Lots hated the bazaar. They say it killed the buyer-seller social interaction. How is that a bad thing? I don't know. I guess people like to lowball with ridiculous offers. I've never had a meaningful interaction while trading, because i treat EC like i treat Wal-Mart. I get in, but my shit, and get out. I don't try to make friends with the cashier.

Lots hated the spires and easier transportation, too. I guess a 30 minutes round trip is too easy. I've never had any meaningful social interaction with a porter either. I'm polite and friendly and i tip decently considering my meager financial means, but i've never had a real conversation with someone that ported me.

I often see the "aliens and spaceship" argument, which is downright parroting the WoW argument when TBC came out. There is no spaceship in Luclin, that was world of warcraft. I guess people need their orcs/frogloks/kobolds to be happy.

The long grind of Luclin is my favorite argument, because it tells a lot about people. Most common complaints heard are "VT shard farming is too long" and "Mobs have too many hitpoints and take forever to die, so it's boring". Now that is funny.

See, the thing is most p99 players like to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they're "oldschool and hardcore". WoW and other modern MMOs are too easy, they say. There's no challenge, no sense of accomplishment. That's pretty much bullshit, because lots of people refuse to group with hybrids, the xp being too slowed down too much. I've seen people in EC ask for a port to Lavastorm, which is 2 zones away.

P99 players are huge fucking casuals at heart. If something takes too long to kill, then it's boring and not efficient enough. They spend the hardest and longest part of the road to 60 in Chardok, paying for AE pulls instead.

So the thought of VT shard farming, Ssra bane weapons molds farming and actually spending more than 15 seconds per mob while clearing Vex Thal trash, is horrible.

They like it hard, but not too hard. Just hard enough to congratulate themselves for playing "old-school EQ", but not so much to the point where they actually have to pay attention to whats happening in the game because then, they can't watch netflix at the same time.

Luclin absolutely rocks.

Pretty much this right here. People bemoan the ease of today's MMOs, but are frightened of the more grindy era of EQ. Velious is actually one of the expansions that requires the least effort. There are no new levels to obtain, and you can gear up a guild quite easily from tov trash. Even faction grinding really just takes the form of tagging the boss on a few kills, which you can do regardless of who is killing the mob. You could say that it takes some effort to gear people up to handle the tougher mobs of the expansion, but I'll go ahead and make the bold prediction that no guilds will take the "right" path of gearing up 30-40 solid raiders to then challenge tormax/aow/ntov. Instead they'll be zerging around with 60-80 people, some of whom may have the best gear, but not many.

[fadetree]

Several reasons.

Lots hated the bazaar. They say it killed the buyer-seller social interaction. How is that a bad thing? I don't know. I guess people like to lowball with ridiculous offers. I've never had a meaningful interaction while trading, because i treat EC like i treat Wal-Mart. I get in, but my shit, and get out. I don't try to make friends with the cashier.

Lots hated the spires and easier transportation, too. I guess a 30 minutes round trip is too easy. I've never had any meaningful social interaction with a porter either. I'm polite and friendly and i tip decently considering my meager financial means, but i've never had a real conversation with someone that ported me.

I often see the "aliens and spaceship" argument, which is downright parroting the WoW argument when TBC came out. There is no spaceship in Luclin, that was world of warcraft. I guess people need their orcs/frogloks/kobolds to be happy.

The long grind of Luclin is my favorite argument, because it tells a lot about people. Most common complaints heard are "VT shard farming is too long" and "Mobs have too many hitpoints and take forever to die, so it's boring". Now that is funny.

See, the thing is most p99 players like to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they're "oldschool and hardcore". WoW and other modern MMOs are too easy, they say. There's no challenge, no sense of accomplishment. That's pretty much bullshit, because lots of people refuse to group with hybrids, the xp being too slowed down too much. I've seen people in EC ask for a port to Lavastorm, which is 2 zones away.

P99 players are huge fucking casuals at heart. If something takes too long to kill, then it's boring and not efficient enough. They spend the hardest and longest part of the road to 60 in Chardok, paying for AE pulls instead.

So the thought of VT shard farming, Ssra bane weapons molds farming and actually spending more than 15 seconds per mob while clearing Vex Thal trash, is horrible.

They like it hard, but not too hard. Just hard enough to congratulate themselves for playing "old-school EQ", but not so much to the point where they actually have to pay attention to whats happening in the game because then, they can't watch netflix at the same time.

Luclin absolutely rocks.

Yep, really agree on how dissonant people are about 'easiness'. They say they like it hard, but when you make it hard they bitch. Then if you ease it up they get bored and wander off. 'Well, it's not the right KIND of hard', they often say, meaning they don't think long kill times, death penalties, intricately difficult raid targets, farming, etc., are 'fun' hard, ignoring the fact that there simply aren't other kinds of hardness in MMO's. Hardness is always annoying.

What they really mean is that they want to claim they like it hard, but only the stuff they don't feel like doing should be actually hard. But I think most of the P99'ers are more in tune with whats up as far as hardness goes, and actually appreciate it in classic EQ. As far as Luclin, I liked it for the most part. PoP was the best though. PoP with no books gets my vote.

[Bolix]

Said it before, but I loved luclin raiding.
Even though I had to help wasters camp VT shards 300 times!

One problem with too many expansions is that it dilutes the player pool levellling in zones. With more zones to level in, people get more spread out, and that takes away from the 'community' feel of the game (i.e. you feel it isn't just you against the game, there are others around you).

Bazaar, mounts, cats, UI. I don't have any huge preference on these things (clarification, I don't want to mount a cat). I wouldn't die in a ditch over any of these things, and if lots of people wanted, or didn't want them, wouldn't bother me too much.

[iruinedyourday]

Its just a different game.

there are lots of reasons why luclin is not classic EQ

1. the itimization decimiates 80-90% of the camps in classic EQ, so the pop in these zones drops, the value of *classic nameds becomes worthless.

2. new models are stupid and ugly and should go to hell

3. world of warcraft gaming, all that shit, we dont like, if we liked it we wouldnt be playing p99

[Vaderman]

1. the itimization decimiates 80-90% of the camps in classic EQ, so the pop in these zones drops, the value of nameds becomes worthless.


Velious already did this

[Teneran]

Pretty much this right here. People bemoan the ease of today's MMOs, but are frightened of the more grindy era of EQ. Velious is actually one of the expansions that requires the least effort. There are no new levels to obtain, and you can gear up a guild quite easily from tov trash. Even faction grinding really just takes the form of tagging the boss on a few kills, which you can do regardless of who is killing the mob. You could say that it takes some effort to gear people up to handle the tougher mobs of the expansion, but I'll go ahead and make the bold prediction that no guilds will take the "right" path of gearing up 30-40 solid raiders to then challenge tormax/aow/ntov. Instead they'll be zerging around with 60-80 people, some of whom may have the best gear, but not many.

Maybe I played a different version of Velious somehow but there is no way you could get the faction required for quest turn-ins by "tagging the boss on a few kills"; that's an outrageous statement (look up the definition of 'a few' if required). When I needed to turn in the Dain's head to Tormax I killed a zillions dwarfs outside Thurgadin in addition to tagging and killing numerous bosses to get to the required Ally. It was a grind for sure.

I would agree Luclin took more effort and I liked the expansion but Velious wasn't ez-mode either.

[Ezalor]

this is at least the 10th luclin thread this week

[Daldaen]

Its just a different game.

there are lots of reasons why luclin is not classic EQ

1. the itimization decimiates 80-90% of the camps in classic EQ, so the pop in these zones drops, the value of nameds becomes worthless.

2. new models are stupid and ugly and should go to hell

3. world of warcraft gaming, all that shit, we dont like, if we liked it we wouldnt be playing p99

1. I suggest you look at Velious itemization. Cause it absolutely crushes basically everything from Kunark. There are a few items / slots where this is not true. But the case is the exact same as the case in Luclin.

2. Agreed. Classic Models until GoD or so then Luclin fit into the world better IMO

3. Wat? Quests are still very EverQuesty. They aren't "go kill 10 boars and Grats on 2 levels". Vex Thal Key is probably one of the best... Travel to almost every zone and camp from... Human friendly guards in a corrupt city, to tentacle humanoids in a cave, to long dead Iksar skeletons in a snake's mine, to giant insectoids in a cave, etc. Not to mention quests like Earring of Solstice, Sigil Earring, Loyalists Shield, and so many other great ones.

Luclin also brought AAs which gave worth to exp at 60. Also it made Tradeskills relevant because they created useful items... More than just JC/Alchemy like we have now.

[kenzar]

decimiates
1/10th really isn't that bad.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/692/19789999.jpg

[Daldaen]

People focus on VT gear too much or the end game Luclin Content, and say "look how OP this was", but fail to recognize that's top tier stuff not everyone has access to. And AoW, Tunare, NToV/EToV and some Dain/Tormax/Yelinak loot looks pretty comparable to that VT gear.

The actual normal groupable / casual raider gear though isn't an enormous jump ever in EQ until SoF. And that was a terrible expansion because of it trivializing all prior raid content.

[Thulack]

because soe catered to the lowest denominator starting at the release of SoL

cat people were dumb
bazaar ruined trading
new graphics looked like shit
new ui was dumb
mounts were dumb
porting to nexus was dumb

Its not a huge leap from lizard people to cat people ;)

[iruinedyourday]

Velious already did this

yea but im talking genocide..

[khanable]

Its not a huge leap from lizard people to cat people ;)

Lizard people don't lick their anuses when cleaning themselves

[Orruar]

Maybe I played a different version of Velious somehow but there is no way you could get the faction required for quest turn-ins by "tagging the boss on a few kills"; that's an outrageous statement ...

Either you get highly offended very easily, or you just did the exact same thing (exaggeration) that you are accusing me of. Regardless, the factioning in Velious is pretty much the only grind there is to that expansion, and it's orders of magnitudes easier than the grind from any other expansion. It'll take a week or two at most if you don't do it retardedly (hint: you can faction much faster in larger groups than solo). Velious was such an easy expansion, far easier than pretty much any modern MMO expansion.

[Ezalor]

is there any point to these theorycrafting threads about luclin

the developers of this project have already stated it's not happening. ever.

pointless circlejerk

[Samoht]

hint: you can faction much faster in larger groups than solo

nope. solo dorfs. turn in heads. if you're solo, you get to keep them all instead of having to split with a group.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Some people just don't grok the concept of "nerf."

A nerf can mean two things.

One, it can refer to nerfing the player, making a player less powerful, by removing a weapon, item, etc. This was very rarely the problem with everquest

Two, it can refer to nerfing the game, where things become too easy and the player becomes too powerful. This is what happened with everquest

And that is your answer, op.

[kaev]

Mounts were not visible or usable unless you used the new graphics IIRC, making them ultra-dumb.

With old graphics, other player's mounts would appear as a naked (i.e. bikini-clad) woodelf female with a "Soandso's Mount" nameplate above the head. I'm sure the nerds who made & approved that choice thought themselves very clever.

[Skydash]

AA's do not add anything to post 60 exp. They create artificial levels, second tier levels.
They are an "Alternative" to adding more levels. Reason is, because most of the code is based on level, and adding levels would have thrown their calcs out of whack, so they added this "alternative" to leveling.

But AA's were not optional, you had to grind them out if you wanted to stay competitive.
And they were either bandaids to broken abilities, or overpowered/trivializing abilities to allow people to solo more.

Another thing I notice, many of these pro-Luclin responses include Boxing.

Also, the models are so horribly ugly.

[jpetrick]

I'll go ahead and make the bold prediction that no guilds will take the "right" path of gearing up 30-40 solid raiders to then challenge tormax/aow/ntov.

Indignation will be fighting the good fight against the zerg.

[Pint]

implement mounts!

[khanable]

With old graphics, other player's mounts would appear as a naked (i.e. bikini-clad) woodelf female with a "Soandso's Mount" nameplate above the head. I'm sure the nerds who made & approved that choice thought themselves very clever.

I feel like skeleton illusion was the only thing that worked right with mounts with old graphics. I might be making that up though.

But yea. Mounts dumb. Required use of new graphics to use, gross.

[Necabo]

I had two problems with Luclin. First, it was the beginning of the end for the porting business. I understand that people had to wait for the spires to activate, but part of the challenge of Everquest was mobility, if you chose to play a class that had limited options.

Second, the bazaar destroyed the East Commonlands trade. We can haggle over prices in East Commonlands, and it's more true-to-life as far as the idea of not having all items available at all times to buy.

[Brut]

It turned the game from a medieval fantasy with dragons and goblins into a crappy episode of Star Trek.

Enemies being named BLARGH BLERGH FIEND kinda gives me the impression that the devs just gave up.

[maskedmelon]

You start taking stuff like that away and it just becomes a single player game that other people inhabit.

Perfectly summarizes my sentiments. I was going to put out a treatise on the terribad of Luclin, but realized I am getting cranky with all this push for generic mmo9000 implementation. I am going to stop writing before I get nasty >.<

[maskedmelon]

Here, since I am cranky with nothing new to contribute at this time and quoting oneself has become so fashionable if late, I give you my response to Wednesday's discussion on this same issue:

There are several reasons SoL is a departure from Classic Everquest:

1. Setting - the game changes from adventures in slaying dragons and orcs to battling aliens in outer space.
2. Community - introduction of the nexus/bazaar was the beginning of unraveling of the Classic Everquest community. The world expansion also furthers dilution of the player population.
3. Mechanics - the alternate advancement system was a radical departure from original EQ game design. While it has it's merits, it would ultimate trivialize a vast amount of content on a locked server like this one.

SoL was not classic Everquest. It was a departure from it. Some people do not consider Velious or Kunark classic for their roles (albeit to a much lesser extent) in some of the above (expanded world, changed mechanics, etc.), but most just view the tweaks in those expansions as a fleshing out of the original design.

[wormed]

I feel like skeleton illusion was the only thing that worked right with mounts with old graphics. I might be making that up though.

But yea. Mounts dumb. Required use of new graphics to use, gross.

Man, I cannot for the life of me remember any mounts. I know I always had old graphics on. Could you still use a mount with old graphics and it'd simply give you a speed boost? Cause I think I did that.

[planeofdreams]

Luclin simply dropped off into the uncanny valley, breaking immersion. People come to p99 because they still wake up at night from fevered dreams just wondering, "What if?" Its undeniable that what Everquest is today started with Luclin. Luclin is just a clear demarcation between "What it was like and what it became." The trauma of this cognitive dissonance will probably never heal. ;D

I don't think most people really hate Luclin, everyone seems to like something about it; they just don't want to play the game that ended their cherished fantasy worlds.

[Orruar]

Indignation will be fighting the good fight against the zerg.

I should have added a clause that said "and get a significant portion of the kills". You know zerg guilds gonna zerg at all hours of the night to get those pixels. There are literally hundreds of people on this server that want easy pixels and taking 2x the numbers is way easier than training people how to kill shit right.

[Orruar]

Second, the bazaar destroyed the East Commonlands trade. We can haggle over prices in East Commonlands, and it's more true-to-life as far as the idea of not having all items available at all times to buy.

Do you live in Cuba or something? Most of us can go to amazon.com and buy pretty much anything.

[Hawala]

Ya'll keep thinking social interaction has to be some sort of grand philosophical debate between two players or something

Just having to rely on someone else for a port or having to actually interact with players selling things made the world feel alive. You start taking stuff like that away and it just becomes a single player game that other people inhabit.

Exactly! I didn't want to play a solo game.

Being able to use the nexus to port killed the expansiveness of how large the world was.

This too.

Skip luclin. Launch planes of power with no PoK books.

Maybe... but with equipment scaled down for lack of Luclin

disable the afk vendoring feature and the bazaar becomes a nice hub of interactive commerce complete with tradeskill basics, banking, vendors and an arena.

This is kind of a cool idea, maybe this would just move EC to the Bazaar.

[Rararboker]

One of the big points was missed. ZEM's. Paludal caverns was particularly bad.

It had a much higher ZEM than any other zone for that level which meant everyone went there to level, abandoning all old zones. This was common for a lot of luclin zones.


This



Maybe... but with equipment scaled down for lack of Luclin



This is kind of a cool idea, maybe this would just move EC to the Bazaar.



No need to tone them down at all. It adds to the difficulty!

[Hawala]

Maybe, but I meant scale back the gear.

[Rararboker]

I know, no need though. Makes it harder to break into the planes at first but it makes the loot that much more worthwhile. Considering what I've seen on this server I don't think any of the top raid guilds would have any issue with this arrangement. They'd make it work.

[kaev]

Being able to use the nexus to port killed the expansiveness of how large the world was.


Oh baloney. The Nexus port was like taking a boat: slow, clumsy, rarely gets you close to your final destination. The Nexus port was almost infinitely inferior to hiring a porter unless you were flat broke, and it was a godsend if you were playing at odd hours and there were zero porters available for hire.

The wizards and druids who offered port & translocate for hire services made the world small. The nexus port reinforced and emphasized the size of the game world by making you walk to & from a single hub per continent.

[Hawala]

Oh baloney. The Nexus port was like taking a boat: slow, clumsy, rarely gets you close to your final destination. The Nexus port was almost infinitely inferior to hiring a porter unless you were flat broke, and it was a godsend if you were playing at odd hours and there were zero porters available for hire.

The wizards and druids who offered port & translocate for hire services made the world small. The nexus port reinforced and emphasized the size of the game world by making you walk to & from a single hub per continent.

Are you trolling?

[Orruar]

Are you trolling?

Are you an idiot? Oh wait, reading the rest of your replies, you are. Do you really think the bazaar turned EQ into a solo game? Do you get most of your player interaction in EQ via the EC tunnel? The EQ developers rightly realized the valuable and interesting part of human interaction in EQ was killing stuff with groups large and small, not in haggling over the price of an fbss.

[Vaderman]

The EQ developers rightly realized the valuable and interesting part of human interaction in EQ was killing stuff with groups large and small, not in haggling over the price of an fbss.

And that takes the living breathing sandbox world idea and turns it into grindquest.

[Hawala]

Are you an idiot? Oh wait, reading the rest of your replies, you are. Do you really think the bazaar turned EQ into a solo game? Do you get most of your player interaction in EQ via the EC tunnel? The EQ developers rightly realized the valuable and interesting part of human interaction in EQ was killing stuff with groups large and small, not in haggling over the price of an fbss.

Ya'll keep thinking social interaction has to be some sort of grand philosophical debate between two players or something

[Bristlebaner]

It went from fantasy to sci-fi.

[Ezalor]

y'all are arguing over an expansion that isnt gonna happen here no matter what your opinion is on it

just sayin

[wormed]

y'all are arguing over an expansion that isnt gonna happen here no matter what your opinion is on it

just sayin

Werd. :cool:

[Lorian]

I think its ok sticking to Velious, but to me Luclin was great and I have lots of good memories from that place. I started playing just a month or so after Luclin was launched and I'd say that I had more interaction with people back then, maybe because I had 40+ hours a week to play.

Also, the EC tunnel (which i never experienced on live) is not contributing to the social aspects of this game and people would be playing the actual game a LOT more if they did not have to spend so much time in there.

I remember that during PoP, KC was still always camped and KC loot was still top notch (I was mighty proud of my full suit of Singing Steel). Kunark content was definitely not trivialized during the PoP era!!

I would assume most of the resistance to Luclin comes from people with no life outside of EQ that sees their existence in the game (and thus their whole life) being threatened by casual players being able to enjoy the game as much as they do.

[joedirt87]

Was mixed on luclin looking back. I got into eq only a few more before it released. I was not a fan of the zones, but I liked a lot of the other implementations. Was mixed on the graphics and beast lords. But AA's were a cool idea and I'm surprised no other games took that idea. The bazaar was nice.

[picklefixer]

Several reasons.

Lots hated the bazaar. They say it killed the buyer-seller social interaction. How is that a bad thing? I don't know. I guess people like to lowball with ridiculous offers. I've never had a meaningful interaction while trading, because i treat EC like i treat Wal-Mart. I get in, but my shit, and get out. I don't try to make friends with the cashier.

Lots hated the spires and easier transportation, too. I guess a 30 minutes round trip is too easy. I've never had any meaningful social interaction with a porter either. I'm polite and friendly and i tip decently considering my meager financial means, but i've never had a real conversation with someone that ported me.

I often see the "aliens and spaceship" argument, which is downright parroting the WoW argument when TBC came out. There is no spaceship in Luclin, that was world of warcraft. I guess people need their orcs/frogloks/kobolds to be happy.

The long grind of Luclin is my favorite argument, because it tells a lot about people. Most common complaints heard are "VT shard farming is too long" and "Mobs have too many hitpoints and take forever to die, so it's boring". Now that is funny.

See, the thing is most p99 players like to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they're "oldschool and hardcore". WoW and other modern MMOs are too easy, they say. There's no challenge, no sense of accomplishment. That's pretty much bullshit, because lots of people refuse to group with hybrids, the xp being too slowed down too much. I've seen people in EC ask for a port to Lavastorm, which is 2 zones away.

P99 players are huge fucking casuals at heart. If something takes too long to kill, then it's boring and not efficient enough. They spend the hardest and longest part of the road to 60 in Chardok, paying for AE pulls instead.

So the thought of VT shard farming, Ssra bane weapons molds farming and actually spending more than 15 seconds per mob while clearing Vex Thal trash, is horrible.

They like it hard, but not too hard. Just hard enough to congratulate themselves for playing "old-school EQ", but not so much to the point where they actually have to pay attention to whats happening in the game because then, they can't watch netflix at the same time.

Luclin absolutely rocks.

I want to be this mothafuckers friend !

<Insert SweetAss Sig Here>
Mrtwig

[wormed]

I definitely recall the Ssra weapon farm. As much as it was a pain, when you could actually finally down something in Ssra, and with, usually, the most minimal numbers possible, it was a great feeling.

I clearly liked Luclin enough to play into PoP, so I got no issues with it but could be just that my memory is fuzzy.

[Dacien]

Ya'll keep thinking social interaction has to be some sort of grand philosophical debate between two players or something

Just having to rely on someone else for a port or having to actually interact with players selling things made the world feel alive. You start taking stuff like that away and it just becomes a single player game that other people inhabit.

Well said.

[Castigate]

Lots hated the spires and easier transportation, too. I guess a 30 minutes round trip is too easy. I've never had any meaningful social interaction with a porter either. I'm polite and friendly and i tip decently considering my meager financial means, but i've never had a real conversation with someone that ported me.


On live I almost never got ported anywhere, I was way too poor for that, which I might add is a problem foreign to this server due to timeline. I did play a Bard so it cut down on my travel time some, but I would pretty often spend a good two hours or more going from GFay (Sol Ro server trade hub), out to perma where me and a few buds in my noobish guild would farm items that really weren't worth all that much looking back. On the way I'd often grab people running around BB, the Commons, or Karanas and take them where they were going, wasting even more time on pointless shit and not getting anything really done. I was a noob for sure, but the world felt so massive and real that I couldn't avoid getting sucked into the life like that. Sure if I actually do play nowadays I'll get ports wherever I go, and it's just a plat transaction like you say, but I understand that if I hadn't built up a bank or a rep here then I really might not have that convenience.

I had quit EQ by the time Luclin came out, so most of the hate people give it I don't really understand and avoid commenting on, but the Nexus fucks something that fundamentally makes this game impressive to me.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Ya'll keep thinking social interaction has to be some sort of grand philosophical debate between two players or something

Just having to rely on someone else for a port or having to actually interact with players selling things made the world feel alive. You start taking stuff like that away and it just becomes a single player game that other people inhabit.

I've got a fever, babies, and the only cure, is more Durkheim.

[Erydan Ouragan]

I want to be this mothafuckers friend !

<Insert SweetAss Sig Here>
Mrtwig

Then look me up in game, we can definitely be friends because p99 won't ever have Luclin, which is the expansion that kills all the friendships and makes everyone asocial.

[Synthlol]

Lots hated the bazaar. They say it killed the buyer-seller social interaction. How is that a bad thing? I've never had a meaningful interaction while trading.

The bazaar is easier and more efficient, nobody argues that. The interactions between live traders in EC/GFay/NFP were never enriching or life altering. It's just what you have to do in classic everquest to trade items. The requirement to coordinate with other players is part of what gives the game its 'soul', if you will, and it loses some if its charm when you don't have to.

Even if you find it annoying and inconvenient, the game would feel boring and meaningless without these kinds of hurdles.


Lots hated the spires and easier transportation, too. I've never had any meaningful social interaction with a porter either.

I don't really think that Luclin affected the porting dynamic in classic EQ at all, as the spires were more of an alternative to boats than ports.

It was the books in PoP which removed the requirement to coordinate with other players in order to quickly move around Norrath. Again, there isn't anything rewarding or enriching about soliciting a port, but the fact that you must have assistance from a druid or wizard to travel instantly across multiple zones is a defining aspect of the classic era. The game started to feel lifeless when this requirement was removed, even if it was more convenient that way. It also robbed druids and wizards of a huge exclusive class benefit. It was never about great friendships being forged with <Dial a Port> members.



I often see the "aliens and spaceship" argument, which is downright parroting the WoW argument when TBC came out. There is no spaceship in Luclin.

There may not be spaceships, but Luclin shifted the primary setting of the game in a way that made it feel disconnected. All of Norrath had a very cohesive feel to it, and moving the current content to a different world destroyed that.

[dallow2345]

Personally I stopped playing live the first time right around Luclin as my puter couldn't handle the graphics and made the whole zone a giant miserable lag. I returned a few years later to a total different game that had two people left from everyone I knew before and had zero social interactions. I will leave comments on what caused that to those that were there.
What I want to say though, I really don't understand people that come to a free server running a game by volunteers who have said "this game will run only until this point" and the first thing they do is say "can we go further"? It really is mind boggling.

[stormlord]

The spires were virtually required. Why? Because each expansion kept making the world bigger and bigger and bigger which was spreading players out too much. This had these effects:
1) Makes it harder to form a group because have to travel further
2) Spreads out players thinly so they see and interact with others less

So: The spires actually improved the community. Believe it or not.

A lot of players say it was better when everybody bartered or sold things in EC or GF. But what they miss is the extensive use of the forums for trading. Many players on p1999 use the forums to sell their stuff! So the talk about it improving the community is untrue, since so many are choosing to use the forums. I would not be surprised if this was true back when Velious was live. Forums were invented long ago.

Right there I just shot down two the popular reasons Luclin is hated.

BUT I agree SOME of the player models suck. Some of the animations attached to them suck too. Moreso, the number of polygons in the environments/models was greatly increased and doesn't jive well with the much lower poly areas in pre-luclin zones. So on a purely visual stance, Luclin is a huge departure from the older game.

I also agree the CHARACTER of the zones/races/monsters changed. The names were strange, like someone else said Barg Berg Xar Fiend XI. There were creatures that resembled aliens. In general, a lot of the creatures and enviros were strange. It reminds me a lot of later expansions like GOD and OOW. I did not like the feel of the visuals in Luclin/God/Oow/etc. Reminds me of Morrowind too - had a lot of strange things.

Someone said they added ZEMs immediately prior or after Luclin. I agree this did have an appreciable affect on the population in older zones. It moved a lot of players into Luclin or Kunark, leaving older zones more empty. The Paludal Caverns is a wonderful example. Not only did it have a high ZEM, but it was nextdoor to a city AND the bazaar. There're also many cases where ZEMs moved players from one segemnt of the old world to another, meaning parts of the old world were more empty than others.

Regarding Paludal Caverns:
Older zones had alreayd been destroyed somewhat by the ease with which players could buy kunark/velious armor/weapons/etc. Items received in older zones and quests were almost worthless by comparison, meaning the sense of reward was diminished. This happened before Luclin launched.

For a new player who wasn't a cat to get to Paludal Caverns they had to find a spire which meant some potentially dangerous travelling. They also had to find a bind, as Soulbinders weren't available yet. It was really only older players who took full advantage of the Paludal Caverns. This of course is what would happen on p1999 since so many here know the game so well. However, some might stay in the old world anyway since even with Luclin p1999 is still the most genuine progression server in existence.

Paludal Caverns usually was full. So players would spread out a bit on the assumption it was full. This didn't stop a lot of players from moving to Luclin anyway to level up. It kept some in old world.

Those are my thoughts.

[Cecily]

That's a fantastic post ^

[kaev]

Oh baloney. The Nexus port was like taking a boat: slow, clumsy, rarely gets you close to your final destination. The Nexus port was almost infinitely inferior to hiring a porter unless you were flat broke, and it was a godsend if you were playing at odd hours and there were zero porters available for hire.

The wizards and druids who offered port & translocate for hire services made the world small. The nexus port reinforced and emphasized the size of the game world by making you walk to & from a single hub per continent.Are you trolling?

No, are you?

[iruinedyourday]

this forum thread should be in off topic.

[Ohno]

P99 staff catered to the lowest denominator when they added the loot pinata rules.

I thought the lowest common denominator was all the people who spend all day in game (if you think about it).

I guess the welfare/diability check is like a loot pinata :)?

[86753o9]

Yet another "why can't we have luclin/pop on the anti luclin/pop server?" thread.

Jesus, if you like the post velious expansions why do you play on this server? Why don't you play on one of the other servers that have those expansions? You know, the expansions that drove most of us to seek out project1999. Every week somebody starts this thread. Shit get's old. This server is called project 1999. The clue is in the name. This server was created by players, for players who didn't like it when sony took a giant dump on their beloved game in the form of luclin and subsequent expansions. Stop trying to turn project 1999 into project free live everquest every week.

God damn.

[myriverse]

People Q-Q that it drew away from the fantasy realm.

Which is dumb. A planet having a moon and having wizard using spires to teleport to this other moon sounds like it fits into Fantasy as well. Not that different than finding a new continent like Kunark or Velious.
Exactly. At the end of the day, no one was fighting aliens in space; they were just fighting more magical creatures in more magical zones.

Nor do I agree that the Bazaar and spires adversely changed the community. If anything they only enhanced it.

That said, if the Devs want to stop at Velious, I'm more than cool with that. Better than nothing. I'll scream every week for cats on the moon, but only between my having lots of fun playing P99.

/cheer Devs

Jesus, if you like the post velious expansions why do you play on this server? Why don't you play on one of the other servers that have those expansions?
Basically, the boxing rule is the only reason I'm here, not any kind of grognard ideal. It wasn't until long after Ykesha that things started to get bad, imo.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Yet another "why can't we have luclin/pop on the anti luclin/pop server?" thread.

Jesus, if you like the post velious expansions why do you play on this server? Why don't you play on one of the other servers that have those expansions? You know, the expansions that drove most of us to seek out project1999. Every week somebody starts this thread. Shit get's old. This server is called project 1999. The clue is in the name. This server was created by players, for players who didn't like it when sony took a giant dump on their beloved game in the form of luclin and subsequent expansions. Stop trying to turn project 1999 into project free live everquest every week.

God damn.

First, take a deep breath, you seem mad.

Now, this thread (and all the others) are not official petitions or campaigns to move away p99 from it's original intentions. We're only discussing the reasons why we think Luclin is great.

We are aware that Luclin/PoP are never going to happen and we're fine with it, so don't worry, it's just a discussion.

Now to answer your question about why we play on here? Well in my case it's simple.

The Everquest i love to play are the Luclin/PoP eras. So it's a choice between p99 and live, p99 being the closest one to these eras.

I'm aware there are other emu servers, but none have limits on boxing, so when you see 350 players in the login screen, that means there's about only 100-150 real people playing, if that. Community is important in EQ, and p99's community is fantastic. Not so much the on forums, but in game i've met tons of people and made friends since the first day i started playing here. The server feels alive, so despite a lack of Luclin/PoP, it's great to play here because of the people.

P99 is also incredibly well-managed. The server is very authentic, no weird xp modifier and custom items that make everyone overpowered. The dev team and GMs are making a lot of efforts to provide us with a top-notch server. They're doing a mighty fine job, considering they're all volunteers and nobody makes a cent off of it.

So i guess what i really want is a PoP server, but with p99 community and ruleset. Call it Project 2004 or Project Golden Age i don't care, but that's exactly what i want. In the meantime, i'll keep playing p99 and bitch about the lack of Luclin/PoP and how it would be better with AAs and new spells/content, but it doesn't mean i don't enjoy the server as it is right now.

And i know i'm not alone.

[myriverse]

There may not be spaceships, but Luclin shifted the primary setting of the game in a way that made it feel disconnected. All of Norrath had a very cohesive feel to it, and moving the current content to a different world destroyed that.
No more disconnected than Velious felt.

[Andurian]

Why not make EC the Bazaar zone? Limit the satchels to small, for stuff like words/runes etc the small junk that is a pita to sell. So people still have to sell weapons/armor as normal.

The nexus porting is on non issue.. how many people actually take boats seriously?

Luclin added a lot of good and bad, we can pick out the bad and add the good.

I played till I think Ldon, but I consider PoP the last classic expack.. if you remove stones to old world. It had a lot of fun raiding and content.

[Kowalski]

Riddled with bugs, endless patches, constant crashing, and cats !

[Swish]

Riddled with bugs, endless patches, constant crashing, and cats !

Raid content was p gud, AAs we're a good idea...not flawless but it added some nice things.

I had a cat shaman, was gr8.

[Bolix]

First, take a deep breath, you seem mad.


So i guess what i really want is a PoP server, but with p99 community and ruleset. Call it Project 2004 or Project Golden Age i don't care, but that's exactly what i want. In the meantime, i'll keep playing p99 and bitch about the lack of Luclin/PoP and how it would be better with AAs and new spells/content, but it doesn't mean i don't enjoy the server as it is right now.

And i know i'm not alone.

lol erydan, my sentiments exactly, you are not alone!

[Zlain]

You can have your preference as far as content all you want, but additional Classes(BST, BRZ, Gnome Pal, etc) from expansions post Velious are things that should be in. OPTIONS. MMOs succeed or fail based on the amount of options they provide a player. The longevity of the server is damaged when the developers straight refuse to implement these options because of their preferences. Granted they can do this cause of the nature of this project, but it's also why they'd never make it in any type of actual studio.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Raid content was p gud, AAs we're a good idea...not flawless but it added some nice things.
.

I found the end content very fun at the time, and it was fun to compete during that era. I thought the keying system for the end content was reasonable, and had to be done, and as I said, was fun to compete for. Getting into Vex Thal meant something, man. We called it "candyland." On hindsight, it foretold of the loot inflation to come in PoP, but at the time, it was pretty mighty.

As to the AA's, if by "not flawless but also added some nice things" I would agree if by that you mean, they were as if someone said, "Here, have few nice sized diamonds. They are somewhere in the 9 tons of morning-after-taco-bell shit I just dumped onto your front yard," where the yard is the game, the diamonds are the abilities that didn't either suck or nerf the game, and the 9 tons of shit is the AA system itself.

[Detoxx]

How come people dont want to put Metal Gear Sold into p99? I like metal gear sold.

you can hide in boxes.

that preditor camo ninja suit is awesome

you can hide bodies in lockers

Bunch a bosses.

New snake, old snakes, and young snakes.

I understand that the game cube version wasnt very good, but still all the otherswere.


https://youtu.be/sXX5drqRD9s

[Safon]

Ya'll keep thinking social interaction has to be some sort of grand philosophical debate between two players or something

Just having to rely on someone else for a port or having to actually interact with players selling things made the world feel alive. You start taking stuff like that away and it just becomes a single player game that other people inhabit.

This guy has it right, and it's pretty great knowing all you pro Luclin dipshits are never getting what you want on this one

[Swish]

This guy has it right, and it's pretty great knowing all you pro Luclin dipshits are never getting what you want on this one

Shit, we probably shouldn't even be talking about anything beyond Velious on a forum including memories of later expansions etc, that would be a silly thing to do.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Getting into Vex Thal meant something, man. We called it "candyland." On hindsight, it foretold of the loot inflation to come in PoP, but at the time, it was pretty mighty.


I'd give a lot to be able to raid Vex Thal. I started to play in Luclin but only started raiding during PoP, so we didn't do VT anymore. I'm not a lore guy at all, but Luclin lore fascinates me, i love the whole Akhevan story line. Mobs having names that are literally in akhevan is one of the coolest things i've ever seen in a game. They invented a language for a computer game, how can you not like it?!

http://www.temerityguild.org/forums/showthread.php?10267-A-Grammar-and-Lexicon-of-the-Akhevan-language

When you realize "a Qua Liako Xakra" is actually "a Minor Knight Spirit".. Literally the spirit of a fallen knight that was low-ranked, and that every mob name means something, that you learn a culture and a lore invented for a computer game, it starts to get pretty immersive. At least for me, 'cause me and languages, that's a thing.

As for the loot inflation, that's an inevitable consequence of progression. You need the gear from the previous expansion to beat the current expansion and the gear from the current expansion trivializes the previous expansions. It is also needed for the next expansion. And so on.

The thing is, there is a point when the gear (spells and skills and AAs too) becomes ridiculous. This is why i think Luclin/PoP was the peak of the game. Nice focii and FT for casters. Stats and weapon ratios that "made sense". Interesting clickies and procs but nothing over the top while the content was still challenging. You couldn't gear up in a groupable instance that gave gear 90% as good as raiding gear. Nobody ever soloed Aten Ha Ra in PoTime gear, so it's not like it made everyone completely overpowered.

Thus why my argument that Luclin/PoP are classic. It's the same game, you need tanks and clerics and CC, you need to get to camps in static zones. If you want the best gear, you have to compete for it. It's just better with more content available, additional spells/skills/AAs that were missing and oh shit i'm rambling again.

[Zlain]

anti luclin people are the 40yr old mid life crisis people that crashed and burned after velious.

[Necabo]

Do you live in Cuba or something? Most of us can go to amazon.com and buy pretty much anything.

No. For Everquest, I simply prefer using the East Commons auctioning system, rather than the Bazaar.

[Lich]

I really liked SoL except for the new character models. I thought the new models were too generic and they looked ridiculous. The content was good and the BL class was interesting.

[SCB]

Two, it can refer to nerfing the game, where things become too easy and the player becomes too powerful. This is what happened with everquest


Both Luclin and PoP were objectively harder than Velious at the group level, the raid level, and with what was available at the solo level.

This argument makes no sense.

[Omnifiend]

Several reasons.

Lots hated the bazaar. They say it killed the buyer-seller social interaction. How is that a bad thing? I don't know. I guess people like to lowball with ridiculous offers. I've never had a meaningful interaction while trading, because i treat EC like i treat Wal-Mart. I get in, but my shit, and get out. I don't try to make friends with the cashier.

Lots hated the spires and easier transportation, too. I guess a 30 minutes round trip is too easy. I've never had any meaningful social interaction with a porter either. I'm polite and friendly and i tip decently considering my meager financial means, but i've never had a real conversation with someone that ported me.

I often see the "aliens and spaceship" argument, which is downright parroting the WoW argument when TBC came out. There is no spaceship in Luclin, that was world of warcraft. I guess people need their orcs/frogloks/kobolds to be happy.

The long grind of Luclin is my favorite argument, because it tells a lot about people. Most common complaints heard are "VT shard farming is too long" and "Mobs have too many hitpoints and take forever to die, so it's boring". Now that is funny.

See, the thing is most p99 players like to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they're "oldschool and hardcore". WoW and other modern MMOs are too easy, they say. There's no challenge, no sense of accomplishment. That's pretty much bullshit, because lots of people refuse to group with hybrids, the xp being too slowed down too much. I've seen people in EC ask for a port to Lavastorm, which is 2 zones away.

P99 players are huge fucking casuals at heart. If something takes too long to kill, then it's boring and not efficient enough. They spend the hardest and longest part of the road to 60 in Chardok, paying for AE pulls instead.

So the thought of VT shard farming, Ssra bane weapons molds farming and actually spending more than 15 seconds per mob while clearing Vex Thal trash, is horrible.

They like it hard, but not too hard. Just hard enough to congratulate themselves for playing "old-school EQ", but not so much to the point where they actually have to pay attention to whats happening in the game because then, they can't watch netflix at the same time.

Luclin absolutely rocks.


Pretty much this. Luclin was pretty hardcore compared to the 16 second dragon kills we have now. So of course the casual loving are going to complain about it. Also, there is a reason I still try to name a character Caen anytime i go to another game of any type. Best weapon and most amazingly designed weapon of all time, ever. Anybody who says otherwise is a filthy casual scum who couldn't raid in SoL. Happiest, most memorable day of my life. Don't tell my wife I said that.

[eisley]

Although I didn't hate Luclin at all, I did hate what I saw of Vex Thal. Loved AA's, Ssra, etc. But being in a hardcore guild, having to farm that key while also being in high school, the game required me to not sleep for several nights, and then after I finally got in, early VT was incredibly tedious. Being a shadowknight, I stopped asking for buffs or bothering to do anything but hit auto attack and tab over to DAoC or something, because it didn't matter either way. Fastest way to farm AA's was to solo Fungus Grove, which lost its charm eventually. It was simply the catalyst that caused my attention to sway elsewhere, and I could no longer justify playing every day, going casual and eventually quitting.

[SCB]

Luclin was the nail in the coffin for the "hardcore" because it demanded of the "hardcore" what they had always demanded of everyone else - absurd timesinks.

Ironically, Luclin is the reason instanced MMO's succeeded, and the crowd here that hates instanced MMO's is the very reason why they are now the mainstay.

I always love these little talks, because it always ends in them just shitposting nonsense because they can't accept that EQ had flaws.

[Buellen]

Not fan of luclin, but for totally different reason than most of you. I hated hated hated the incomplete feel of the expansion. SO much potential with all the different cities and for what NOTHING. As another poster posted only ssra and vexthal had any work put into them the rest of cities where just plain empty shells some half assed quest and nothing else.

Most who raided luclin can tell you it was FUN my guild first Emperor Kill was fricken awesome. I will never never forget wining the emp sword on my paladin. Raiding vex thal andjust loosing that earing http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=12973 by 1 DKP to my friend MONK made me almost cry. Yes i know that earing is better for monk /war but i wanted that dam thing for my paladin8).

Keying process was a hug time sink

[Dacien]

Yet another "why can't we have luclin/pop on the anti luclin/pop server?" thread.

Jesus, if you like the post velious expansions why do you play on this server? Why don't you play on one of the other servers that have those expansions? You know, the expansions that drove most of us to seek out project1999. Every week somebody starts this thread. Shit get's old. This server is called project 1999. The clue is in the name. This server was created by players, for players who didn't like it when sony took a giant dump on their beloved game in the form of luclin and subsequent expansions. Stop trying to turn project 1999 into project free live everquest every week.

God damn.

Wait, so you do or do not like the Luclin idea?

[Rararboker]

Luclin was the nail in the coffin for the "hardcore" because it demanded of the "hardcore" what they had always demanded of everyone else - absurd timesinks.

Ironically, Luclin is the reason instanced MMO's succeeded, and the crowd here that hates instanced MMO's is the very reason why they are now the mainstay.

I always love these little talks, because it always ends in them just shitposting nonsense because they can't accept that EQ had flaws.


Yet it won't be released here. Guess nonsense wins?

lol

[Erydan Ouragan]

Why not make EC the Bazaar zone? Limit the satchels to small, for stuff like words/runes etc the small junk that is a pita to sell. So people still have to sell weapons/armor as normal.


Oh man, great idea.

Luclin had The Bazaar, p99 can have The Tuunel.

Not really though. I'm more an all-or-nothing kind of guy and i want to preserve authenticity. Either a fully authentic classic/kunark/velious server and another one that goes up to PoP, or nothing.

[iruinedyourday]

every time I see this thread inside my head i hear the voice answer the question, 'because it sucks, its not eq'

So thats my reason.

[Erydan Ouragan]

every time I see this thread inside my head i hear the voice answer the question, 'because it sucks, its not eq'

So thats my reason.

That's because you define EQ by superficial things, like graphics. The spirit of the game is preserved in Luclin, as well as in PoP. Static zones, no instancing, raid spawn competitions, class interdependence. It's still all there, THAT is everquest.

In the same thread you made other arguments too:

Its just a different game.

there are lots of reasons why luclin is not classic EQ

1. the itimization decimiates 80-90% of the camps in classic EQ, so the pop in these zones drops, the value of *classic nameds becomes worthless.

2. new models are stupid and ugly and should go to hell

3. world of warcraft gaming, all that shit, we dont like, if we liked it we wouldnt be playing p99

Your itemization argument doesn't hold. That's the nature of MMOs. Current Veeshan's peak gear trivializes stuff from classic. Look at the solo artist challenge thread, you'll see that with enough gear, you trivialize not only classic, but most of kunark as well.

NToV gear remains relevant, well into Luclin, because it's THAT good. Of course, when you start gearing up in Vex Thal, you replace a few pieces, but Kunark -> Velious gear is a far bigger power jump than Velious -> Luclin.

So you don't like new models, fine. I personally love them. To each their own.

Your last argument is just dumb, though. How is Luclin WoW gaming? No instancing or dungeon finders, you can't "respec" your AAs to become something else. Sure there was mounts, but they weren't really used for movement (except by pallies/SKs) because most casters bought the slowpoke one to be able to cast while sitting in combat.

It might not be the EQ you love, but Luclin/PoP is still classic. Just not by your definition.

[iruinedyourday]

Its just the difference between cargo shorts and pants.

[Clark]

Luclin is the best expansion. We will see Luclin.

[Clark]

every time I see this thread inside my head i hear the voice answer the question, 'because it sucks, its not eq'

So thats my reason.

How dare you take it back; TAKE IT BACK THIS ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::m ad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[eqpower]

Depend for what class u play. Velious are ultra boring for mago, i have do all ntov looking the ground making rod rod rod rod rod rod rod. Or before raid coth * 50 time lazy ppl cuz the way to tov is "dangerous" and coth is so easy. Luclin was so cool for mago and liberated them.
Vex thal was so cool, only quest for entrance was hard, but after its CANDY LAND. Farming the faction for velious was more boring than doing the quest for vex thal for me.

Gl for mago with velious ))

[ccs88]

because soe catered to the lowest denominator starting at the release of SoL

cat people were dumb
bazaar ruined trading
new graphics looked like shit
new ui was dumb
mounts were dumb
porting to nexus was dumb

THIS. Mostly the graphics and bazaar for me. Also there were tons of exploit bugs, and why are we in space? Let's keep the medieval fantasy theme going here.

[SCB]

Yet it won't be released here. Guess nonsense wins?

lol

Absolutely perfect example of a nonsense shitpost.

Thanks for the demonstration.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Both Luclin and PoP were objectively harder than Velious at the group level, the raid level, and with what was available at the solo level.

This argument makes no sense.

If you read this thread, you will find I said the raid content was challenging and good. But specifically, the travel and AA system especially gave players too much gameplay power.

The game was getting quite easy, if you were already in a platinum level raiding guild, which I am guessing you were not. The content was time-consuming, not hard.

And tossing tons of hp on a mob does not = harder. It just = moar timesink. Which they needed, since they were making the players overpowered.

[gildor]

I find it funny that so many people mention bazaar ruining interaction, when as it stands with the wiki and auction trackers..it is essentially a bazaar without having a trader mode on..very little interaction..

Player A: What are you asking for X item?
Player B: Wiki has it at Y price
Player A: Ok

...how is that different..shrug

[iruinedyourday]

How dare you take it back; TAKE IT BACK THIS ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::m ad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

rofl sorry I cant, I'm just a Karanas man.

[Doil_Boil]

I'm guessing we won't see Luclin for one major reason:

the server staff has no interest in it.

[Arteker]

monk tears during luckin filled new oceans

[AceOfAngels]

Why not play velious before bitching about why Luclin isn't out ?

[Alanus]

Overall, Luclin wasn't that bad. It had a lot of good content:
- Katta vs Seru
- That war thing you had to do to get smithing components
- Maidens Eye had some nice, but not overpowering, 1 group camps
- Umbral was nice for casters to solo at
- The Deep was a fun zone with good camps
- Ssra was amazing
- Akheva and Acrylia were pretty fun
- Emp keying was not THAT bad, but the bane weapons for him were stupid

There was a lot to do and keep busy with. However, the end zone sucked. Vex Thal shards were not that different from Veeshan's Peak medallions, but Vex Thal itself completely sucked. Mobs had way too many HP and clearing it took way longer than it should have. If you started raiding at 4, you'd be lucky to be done by midnight and if you left the Aten goos up, some guild that was on another continent would clear them before you woke up.

Honestly, AAs were nice, but they set the stage for when they made content that you had to have AA for. I.e. in PoP, good luck killing most elemental stuff without MGB heals. I think that was the stupidest thing ever. AA shouldn't be mandatory, they should've been more "helpful, but not necessary"

[Andurian]

It will sort itself out.

If enough people want Luclin or PoP an emulator will pop up that will offer that and those people will go play there.

[renton1231]

I had two problems with Luclin. First, it was the beginning of the end for the porting business. I understand that people had to wait for the spires to activate, but part of the challenge of Everquest was mobility, if you chose to play a class that had limited options.

Second, the bazaar destroyed the East Commonlands trade. We can haggle over prices in East Commonlands, and it's more true-to-life as far as the idea of not having all items available at all times to buy.

Particularly pertaining to point 2. Most of the people against baz and luclin in general look at things through rose colored glasses.

Most of us aren't kids/teenagers anymore. We don't have 6 hours to spend sitting in EC tunnel anymore waiting for that one guy selling the item we want to log on. Baz enabled us to see if the item we wanted was for sale, buy it and leave.

[Synthlol]

I find it funny that so many people mention bazaar ruining interaction, when as it stands with the wiki and auction trackers..it is essentially a bazaar without having a trader mode on..very little interaction..

Player A: What are you asking for X item?
Player B: Wiki has it at Y price
Player A: Ok

...how is that different..shrug

It doesn't 'ruin' interaction, it removes interaction.

It's different because in one case there is interaction, and in the other there is not. The bazaar is like going to a store; you either pay the listed price, or you don't buy it. EC tunnel opens the opportunity for haggling and bartering.

It is not essentially a bazaar without having a trader mode on. You just aren't keen enough to sense the different implications between the two.

[Rais]

Some of the AA abilities should have been put in at the start of classic. Like spell crits for wizards. That was something that was needed from day one to separate wizards from other mage type classes. Not do damage, but to showcase their burst damage. Same with other caster AAs.

People fear the moon because it was new. Some of it sucked, but some of the zones kicked ass. Saying bazaar was what was the start of the downfall is just silly. If me sending a tell to someone about an item for a price etc is part of the game then killing moon snakes is just as worthy. The afk ec tunnel people are just like the bazaar. Just if you had the bazaar you can sell your shit without having to deal with people calling you names, spamming you with spells to try and lag out or train you.

[Fanguru]

The bazaar was so liberating.
EC tunnel is a tedious spam of macros or shift+up, while telling low-ball offers they can fuck off and no, you will not trade your hiero cloak for a full set of banded, a bard only weapon and a stack of bone chips.

[iruinedyourday]

If you dont like the EC tunnel, then I cant help you. :(

[Secrets]

The Luclin zones were void of life.

You had NPCs with flavor text, and very few meaningful quests.

No one cares about the Nexus port bullshit, It meant nothing at the time. It was just a matter of the zone population being ass (Case and Point: Marus Seru, Shadeweaver), the zone connection being horrendous, Vex Thal being the only meaningful quest... list goes on.
There's also some Luclin spells that were horrendously OP.
Beastlords? Basically shamans that suck.

The good things out of Luclin were arguably Hollowshade Moor, Dawnshroud, Griegs End, Grimling Forest. If the Bazaar was launched with offline selling, I'm sure it would have been better and more accepted than the online selling dickery.
Also, solution to Nexus portin? Don't make Druids/Wizards able to port there, or make the only way to get there being via Druids/Wizards, but not both.

In terms of PoK... the only way I would like to see Knowledge done if ever implemented is only accessible from Druids/Wizards, and keep the stones in the zone. That way Druids/Wizards can just port there and you don't have to say 'port to nro, port to sro, port to wc' but instead 'port me to pok'

That's it. Luclin was a horrible expansion outside of the good things I listed.

[Madbad]

make PoK FFA PvP zone

[Clark]

The Luclin zones were void of life.

You had NPCs with flavor text, and very few meaningful quests.

No one cares about the Nexus port bullshit, It meant nothing at the time. It was just a matter of the zone population being ass (Case and Point: Marus Seru, Shadeweaver), the zone connection being horrendous, Vex Thal being the only meaningful quest... list goes on.
There's also some Luclin spells that were horrendously OP.
Beastlords? Basically shamans that suck.

The good things out of Luclin were arguably Hollowshade Moor, Dawnshroud, Griegs End, Grimling Forest. If the Bazaar was launched with offline selling, I'm sure it would have been better and more accepted than the online selling dickery.
Also, solution to Nexus portin? Don't make Druids/Wizards able to port there, or make the only way to get there being via Druids/Wizards, but not both.

In terms of PoK... the only way I would like to see Knowledge done if ever implemented is only accessible from Druids/Wizards, and keep the stones in the zone. That way Druids/Wizards can just port there and you don't have to say 'port to nro, port to sro, port to wc' but instead 'port me to pok'

That's it. Luclin was a horrible expansion outside of the good things I listed.

This is very personal and unfair justifactions man. Please don't try to ruin it for us. Luclin was my favorite expansion. I hope to see it here someday.

[Itap]

This is very personal and unfair justifactions man. Please don't try to ruin it for us. Luclin was my favorite expansion. I hope to see it here someday.

I honestly liked SoL, minus the character models. Cats are not terribly far from a roleplay standpoint, since we had the Kerran on Odus

[Daldaen]

The Luclin zones were void of life.

You had NPCs with flavor text, and very few meaningful quests.

No one cares about the Nexus port bullshit, It meant nothing at the time. It was just a matter of the zone population being ass (Case and Point: Marus Seru, Shadeweaver), the zone connection being horrendous, Vex Thal being the only meaningful quest... list goes on.
There's also some Luclin spells that were horrendously OP.
Beastlords? Basically shamans that suck.

The good things out of Luclin were arguably Hollowshade Moor, Dawnshroud, Griegs End, Grimling Forest. If the Bazaar was launched with offline selling, I'm sure it would have been better and more accepted than the online selling dickery.
Also, solution to Nexus portin? Don't make Druids/Wizards able to port there, or make the only way to get there being via Druids/Wizards, but not both.

In terms of PoK... the only way I would like to see Knowledge done if ever implemented is only accessible from Druids/Wizards, and keep the stones in the zone. That way Druids/Wizards can just port there and you don't have to say 'port to nro, port to sro, port to wc' but instead 'port me to pok'

That's it. Luclin was a horrible expansion outside of the good things I listed.
Sigil Earring of Veracity was a fantastic quest line. As was the Loyalist Shield.

Earring of Solstice was another fantastic quest line -- That most people don't actually understand is the quest took a lot of figuring out, most people just saw the guide on EQTraders and did it after the full guide was released.

Luclin spells being horrendously OP... not really :/. The two most cited are KEI + Group Aego. The problem with this is they are merely a matter of convenience when compared to Kunark spells. Group version of Aegolism just allows you to group the buff. KEI is just the combination of GoB+E+C2 rolled into 1 super expensive, group only spell.

The problem with them, was more a problem with those spells being castable on level 1s when you grouped with them. Not so much them being OP at level 60. If you added these spells in Velious, you really wouldn't see much change with raiding or grouping.

Other spells of mention would be Bard AoE Songs (AE Resists and Regen). This allowed raids with few bards to still reap the benefits of bardage without requiring 1 per group. 1 per group was still optimal but it greatly enhanced raiding when you only had 2 bards present on AE Heavy events. Druid SoE, merging See Invis/Levitate/SoW was fantastic for convenience. Several others got some more group buffs for single velious spells or the reverse situation. All matters of convenience.

Good things of mention beyond this for Luclin:


AAs allowed you to exp on your main character and not be throwing it away, actually meaningfully progressing your character. Come Velious my druid at max EXP will gain nothing being in a group, I am better served sitting outside the group and letting people get more exp by me not being inside the group while we farm or quest. Thats dumb.

Tradeskills became meaningful. Baking/Brewing adds decent stat food (Misty Thicket Picnics and Kaladim Constitutionals for example). These are "minor" stats compared to gear but it gave min/maxers something to get and allowed tradeskillers to profit. Smithing/Tailoring's revamp with 2.0 versions of Cultural that were actually pretty solid beyond just the 1 good set in classic (dwarves OP crap). Pottery added the Faith/Hate stones, a 30s portal to the guild-hall of the race/diety for Clerics/Shamans. A nice alternative to an OT hammer, fantastic addition to the game. Leatherfoot Haversack bags were introduced in Luclin also. PoP really refined the Tradeskills adding even more value to every TS (PoP Bows, Pottery Focus Items, Jewelry from every plane, Armor sets from EPs and half the other planes, Baked/Brewed goods from every plane...)

Spells + AAs Balanced out classes. Druid's getting Tunare's Renewal was huge to give them a solid role on raids without unbalancing the game and replacing clerics entirely. Looking at the old Cleric posts complaining about druids getting a 3k HP heal compared to their 10k HP heal for the same cast/mana is hilarious. Adding in Wizard critical blasts + raremode spells. Ranger's getting EQ + AM3, etc.

Rare Mode spells - This sort of was introduced in Velious/Chardok Revamp. But I am a big fan of this, basically certain spells would only drop from a single camp or single named/raid mob. This made spells not something that everyone's alt just has for free. You had to actively camp them, and sometimes the camps sucked, but this is a case that brought communities together, in the same way monks remininsced about how terrible camping Raster was or Targrin. The same conversations and memories about camping someone's Levitation or Dead Men Floating or Elemental/Purifying Chorus, etc.

Beastlords - This class took awhile for Verant to sort them out but by PoP they were pretty solid. Decent DPS, utility spells (Spiritual line was HP/Mana Regen stacking with others, plus the SV line having HP/ATK on the Brell HP spell slot). At 65 they finally got a slow that made them a valuable slower in a group. Their pets were solid and could tank in a pinch if needed. With AAs, specifically MGB Paragon they filled a crucial raid role on endurance fights, making raiding a bit more intricate and interesting.

[iruinedyourday]

This is very personal and unfair justifactions man. Please don't try to ruin it for us. Luclin was my favorite expansion. I hope to see it here someday.

you are the only one making me feel guilty about t his whole thing successfully clark.

Ok first of all, I appreciate luclin because its EQ and if my 99 friends like luclin then its OK by me.

But still, I don't want it on p99 ever.. a recycle server will be WAY more what the doctor ordered for this box!

[Magnar]

Tiered raiding was good, itemization was good, storyline was terrible (with the exception of Ssra), beastlord was stupid, moon cats should all be put in a garbage bag and thrown into a river.

[Madbad]

But still, I don't want it on p99 ever..!

Thankfully Lord Nilbog agrees with you.

http://i.imgur.com/jppEWpG.jpg?1

Just say no!

[Toobit]

I LOVED the vampires

[buffmagnum]

With the rumors of a second server I would think one would go to Luclin. Seems like there are enough wanting that. I wonder when spells stacked and when I can make other classes spells. Bazaar are for those with jobs... ot that kinda job! I look forward to not having to camp AC...or more like fight for the camp. AA sow. You had a choice to get levels or just be more awesome at 55. Yeah I likes TS but I would want more a fresh server regardless how far the expansions go.

[Daldaen]

Oh and I completely forgot focus effects being added in Luclin. And item linking. Both great additions to the game. Focus effects made gearing as a caster far more fun and interactive. Once Velious drops, capping main stats becomes a lot easier and it becomes a game of HP/Mana/Resists after that for most people. Adding in focus effects to make your primary role more effective makes the game far more fun to play as a caster. It gave life to many items that were previously terrible when they retroactively added Focii to prior expansion stuff too.

Luclin was one of the best expansions EQ had as far as additions to the game.

The thing I find funny is, the same players who decry the entire expansion in threads like these are the exact same ones who go into bug threads I make about removing item linking, or removing access to multiple chat bars (another Luclin addition), or removing percentages in UIs (another Luclin addition) and QQ about me wanting to remove everything that's fun about the game.

Either love classic for all its inherent tedious and unwieldiness (I'm making this a word if it isn't already). Or love Luclin for all those features you would complain about being removed if the client allows for it some day down the line.

[maskedmelon]

I don't really care for item linking and with the wiki it is doesn't really save much time anyway so I don't understand why it is still here. Most of the time you are interested in an item it is either for buying or selling, so you are going to look at the wiki anyway.

I say we as a community atone for this sacrilege by removing item linking and along with scroll-to-3rd-person and moveable UIs.

Restore Classic 2015!

[Daldaen]

Scroll to 3rd person was like... A GoD or later update.

Item linking is fixed in the client, they would have to try really hard to remove it.

UIs should be moveable just not nearly as moddable as they are. Only 1 chat box, only 1 Hotbutton bar, no percentages or XP bars outside the inventory window, etc.

[maskedmelon]

Scroll was in before GoD. I quit at LDoN and remember it was added in my time.possibly PoP, but I'd have thought SoL, because I remember the first time I tried it oh was waiting at the spires in GFay and why I would wait there during PoP just doesn't make sense. Though, there is a lot that I look back on that doesn't make sense ^^

[Daldaen]

Scroll was in before GoD. I quit at LDoN and remember it was added in my time.possibly PoP, but I'd have thought SoL, because I remember the first time I tried it oh was waiting at the spires in GFay and why I would wait there during PoP just doesn't make sense. Though, there is a lot that I look back on that doesn't make sense ^^

It definitely wasnt in during PoP. That was the hardest adjustment going from Live -> EQMac server. No scroll wheel was annoying. But you got used to F9ing your way to victory.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Scroll was in before GoD. I quit at LDoN and remember it was added in my time.possibly PoP, but I'd have thought SoL, because I remember the first time I tried it oh was waiting at the spires in GFay and why I would wait there during PoP just doesn't make sense. Though, there is a lot that I look back on that doesn't make sense ^^

Yep scrollback was before GoD, don't remember exactly which expansion but i definitely remember using that view when i was playing.

Focus items were amazing. In some cases, a crappy mage summoned ring with mana conservation was worth using over an expensive ring. In velious we'll get FT on only a couple rare items. People are gonna lose their shit over Golden Leaf Earring from Tunare.

People view Luclin as "the beginning of the end" for EQ when it's the opposite. Classic/Kunark/Velious is the strong foundation, Luclin and PoP made the game feel complete. In my opinion, instanced dungeons and raids is the cut-off point between "classic" and "modern" EQ or MMOs as a whole.

Added functionality and improvements don't ruin a game, they make it better, and that's what Luclin and PoP were. "Oh no, druids can be main healers and wizards can do acceptable dps in groups, this sucks" said no one ever.

There's a reason why a lot of people say that PoP was the golden age of everquest. It's because it was, and it was glorious.

[Lorian]

moon cats should all be put in a garbage bag and thrown into a river.

Explain why would a moon cat would be any worse than a jungle lizard??

[maskedmelon]

Explain why would a moon cat would be any worse than a jungle lizard??

Is this a serious question?

I could get on board with moon rabbits....

[Erydan Ouragan]

Explain why would a moon cat would be any worse than a jungle lizard??

Exactly. This is why it boggles my mind when people use the argument "because it's cats on the moon!!"

Iksars being "lizards from the swamp" is no different. It's still not classic. But they consider them being classic because in their mind classic/kunark/velious is classic, when it's not. Classic is level 50 and old world only.

Killing "aliens" on the moon is the same as killing "seals" on a frozen beach. I think graphics play a huge part in what is defined as classic.

I define classic by the gameplay, not by the looks.

[maestrom]

Killing "aliens" on the moon is the same as killing "seals" on a frozen beach.

Pretty sure they're Otters.

And if you killed them you're a monster.

But I agree. Luclin wasn't perfect, but the AA system was such an incredible innovation because it allowed people with unpredictable time to increase the power of their character without having to be raid. AA's occupied this kind of weird space in my mind where I was max level, so I didn't NEED to level any more, but if I wanted to grind exp or camp something (unsuccessfully) I didn't feel like I was just wasting my time. AA's created in game rewards for playing the game in a way that previously had no reward but were often doing anyways (killing level appropriate monsters at max level). Loved it.

[Dacien]

In my opinion, instanced dungeons and raids is the cut-off point between "classic" and "modern" EQ or MMOs as a whole

The idea of this in eq makes me sad. They might as well throw in a dungeon finder and make death cost plat instead of xp.

Classic eq is so vibrant and immersive strictly due to social interaction and being a "hard mode" MMO.

My thing is, let's keep those qualities while poaching zone, race/class, and loot content from subsequent expansions. With elongated release timetables, of course.

[Roguejm11]

I myself had a lot of fun with luclin. But I see the devs hate it and am just wondering why?

Alternate abilities made it so alot of classes were useful and gave you a reason to keep playing your main even after you hit 60.

The bazaar made shoping a breeze just turn your mule into an npc while your away doing real life stuff.

KEI the greatest spell ever made.

New race and class.

Bunch of raid targets.

New leveling spots.

I understand that bane weapons and lucid shards were a pain in the ass. Also the raid targets had a bunch of hp.

Luclin was the greatest expansion Sony ever did for EQ in my opinion. But it is not up to use for the p99 guys to decide that. There has been talk of a 2nd p99 server that "could" go to Luclin and even PoP, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Especially with Velious just coming.

[PDX0621]

Cuz haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate - T. Swift

/thread

[maskedmelon]

You know, I really enjoyed Eternal Sonata. While it was somewhat lacking in content it was still great fun. I particularly enjoyed the phases combat mechanics that evolved as the characters leveled and progressed brought content. The history lessons on Chopin and his work were masterfully interjected at cutscenes adding further depth to gameplay. Overall, I'd give it a solid 10/10 on entertainment value.

But as with Luclin and for the same (among other) reasons reiterated numerous times herein, it is not Classic Everquest, a simple and far from subtle distinction that our Lords Nilbog and Rogean thankfully understand.

[curtischoy]

I think that this is the only thread that has 150+ posts and has actually (for the most part) stayed on topic.

[Vorkon]

I think that this is the only thread that has 150+ posts and has actually (for the most part) stayed on topic.

More or less people arguing the same points that have been argued before. Passing opinions off as facts, etc...

I didn't think Luclin followed the classic theme of EQ, others here have argued it did. I don't think anyone is right or wrong.

If people are that fired up about wanting Luclin/PoP, there are other emu's that have those things. If they want the P99 feel they are just going to have to gut it out and live through what Rogean/Nilbog's vision of classic is.

[Rararboker]

Luclin was the greatest expansion Sony ever did for EQ in my opinion. But it is not up to use for the p99 guys to decide that. There has been talk of a 2nd p99 server that "could" go to Luclin and even PoP, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Especially with Velious just coming.

Got prof? Never heard anyone official mention another p99 server moving into the forbidden territory of SoL/PoP.

[kaev]

Explain why would a moon cat would be any worse than a jungle lizard??

Isn't it obvious? They're furry! And if you don't lock them out of the nursery they'll sleep on the baby's face and smother it! Most importantly tho, cats are good for chasing the little red dot from a laser pointer and forcing you to vacuum 63x as often as any sane human being would ever choose, it would be heretical and blasphemous to repurpose them for use outside of their divinely ordained place in the world.

[Synthlol]

But they consider them being classic because in their mind classic/kunark/velious is classic, when it's not. Classic is level 50 and old world only.

Pre-kunark is Vanilla.

Pre-luclin is Classic.

Let me fix it for you...

But they consider them being classic because in their mind vanilla/kunark/velious is classic. Vanilla is level 50 and old world only.

[Seltius]

I thought there was alot of unfinished content that really disappointed me about Luclin along with the rush to release feel. I remember doing Ring of Fire event when the expansion was released and getting statless items. A pair of boots that looked cool with the studded leather graphic but that had no stats and I dont think they were even equippable at the time. Later they added clicky SoW charges and made them no drop so my lowbie Beastlord mule had them along with some other drops and couldnt give them to anyone who was actually on the raid. Other events and zones were incomplete. There were places that felt like there should be more to them that eventually the only thing they had was a rare or two or maybe a shard for the VT key.

I remember an NPC that I kited on my druid around a small courtyard for probably an hour while the rest of my guild range attacked him because everytime he hit someone he would proc DA from a hammer. That was probably the most fun I remember in that expansion. Vampires were neat but when you only really remember 1 raid fondly and everything else is kind of blah it doesnt make for alot of enthusiasm for that expansion.

It was like Sony felt they had to release the expansion early before completing or polishing it. After that they seemed to get more into the swing of things and still released the expansions too fast but they appeared to be more complete. This was just the first one and the mistakes showed.




Disclaimer-This is just my opinion and feelings no Devs or Sony employees were hurt in the posting of this thread. Though I did club a few baby Otters in honor of Velious.

[Rec]

kitties in space

[Itap]

If you can't see how going from fighting dragons on middle-earth to warping to the moon to fight aliens is, in essence, the downfall of Everquest lore, I can't help you.

It has nothing to do with the Vah Shir. It has everything to do with classic EverQuest Lore.

The Vah Shir were originally from the continent of Odus (http://everquest.wikia.com/wiki/Odus) , but when the Erudites (http://everquest.wikia.com/wiki/Erudites) moved there, a clash occurred and the Vah Shir were teleported by the Erudites to the moon.

I mean, really?

The Vah Shir were excommunicated from their homeland and sent to the moon of Luclin by Erudites, but are tolerant of all races and religions? Not even a little grudge?

So in actuality, the Erudites are not the oppressed race, but it is the Vah Shir.

SoE should have given a portion of Odus back to the Vah Shir in future expansions, as an apology for teleporting them off of Norrath.

[Swish]

If you can't see how going from fighting dragons on middle-earth to warping to the moon to fight aliens is, in essence, the downfall of Everquest lore, I can't help you.

It has nothing to do with the Vah Shir. It has everything to do with classic EverQuest Lore.



I mean, really?

The Vah Shir were excommunicated from their homeland and sent to the moon of Luclin by Erudites, but are tolerant of all races and religions? Not even a little grudge?

So in actuality, the Erudites are not the oppressed race, but it is the Vah Shir.

SoE should have given a portion of Odus back to the Vah Shir in future expansions, as an apology for teleporting them off of Norrath.

Far from it, didn't they show Luclin exploding in the sky at the start of EQ2? Poor cats. Kerrans were just a poor man's vah shir in that game, they didn't have the grace or cat style of the vah shir :(

http://eq.jeuxonline.info/guides/races/images/VSH2.jpg http://eq2.ru/assets/images//Races/kerra.jpg

[Vaderman]

If you can't see how going from fighting dragons on middle-earth to warping to the moon to fight aliens is, in essence, the downfall of Everquest lore, I can't help you.

Luclin Fantasy Creatures
--------------------

Shades
Vampires
Cat People
Grimlings
Akhevans
Shissar
Gantru
Lightcrawler
Giant Insects
Rockhoppers
Muck Beetles
Thought Horrors
Troglodytes
Fungoids
Owlbears



Luclin Alien Creatures
----------------
Centi

[maskedmelon]

Pre-kunark is Vanilla.

Pre-luclin is Classic.

Let me fix it for you...

This is the most elegant explanation thus far. Classic embodies a design philosophy and set of ideals that were uniformly embraced throughout the first three releases. SoL was a departure from those ideals.

[Itap]

Luclin Fantasy Creatures
--------------------

Shades
Vampires
Cat People
Grimlings
Akhevans
Shissar
Gantru
Lightcrawler
Giant Insects
Rockhoppers
Muck Beetles
Thought Horrors
Troglodytes
Fungoids
Owlbears



Luclin Alien Creatures
----------------
Centi

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/scenery/maiden-natives.jpg

[Daldaen]

This is the most elegant explanation thus far. Classic embodies a design philosophy and set of ideals that were uniformly embraced throughout the first three releases. SoL was a departure from those ideals.

Which were?

Still most content required groups.
Still all raid mobs required raids
Still much of the best gear was the result of quests
Still if you want to group you go to a zone where grouping occurs and LFG
Still if you want loot someone has to kill the mob and sell it to you or you have to kill it yourself

I don't see any deviation from "classic" in Luclin or PoP. The main deviation I would cite is the lessened importance of race/faction in those expansions. Which is based on lore. These people on Luclin, they don't know much of the people from Antonica, Faydwer or Odus so they are friendly to all, or in many cases they are apprehensive. In the Plane of Knowledge they have transcended the infighting among races as a greater threat looms (the gods themselves) and the unity of all the mortals of Norrath is required to meet this new threat. So even that is acceptable.

Race had a large importance with the stat bonus and innate bonuses early on, read every thread min/maxers make on these forums. Come PoP however, those bonuses are mostly irrelevant, which was a good development because people who started way back when didn't know anything about stat differences etc. It allowed everyone to get on an even field despite their original stat allocation or character creation. Where as a dark elf warrior is at a sizable stat disadvantage to a barbarian or ogre in vanilla.

[maskedmelon]

Which were?

Still most content required groups.
Still all raid mobs required raids
Still much of the best gear was the result of quests
Still if you want to group you go to a zone where grouping occurs and LFG
Still if you want loot someone has to kill the mob and sell it to you or you have to kill it yourself

I don't see any deviation from "classic" in Luclin or PoP. The main deviation I would cite is the lessened importance of race/faction in those expansions. Which is based on lore. These people on Luclin, they don't know much of the people from Antonica, Faydwer or Odus so they are friendly to all, or in many cases they are apprehensive. In the Plane of Knowledge they have transcended the infighting among races as a greater threat looms (the gods themselves) and the unity of all the mortals of Norrath is required to meet this new threat. So even that is acceptable.

Race had a large importance with the stat bonus and innate bonuses early on, read every thread min/maxers make on these forums. Come PoP however, those bonuses are mostly irrelevant, which was a good development because people who started way back when didn't know anything about stat differences etc. It allowed everyone to get on an even field despite their original stat allocation or character creation. Where as a dark elf warrior is at a sizable stat disadvantage to a barbarian or ogre in vanilla.


There are several reasons SoL is a departure from Classic Everquest:

1. Setting - the game changes from adventures in slaying dragons and orcs to battling aliens in outer space.
2. Community - introduction of the nexus/bazaar was the beginning of unraveling of the Classic Everquest community. The world expansion also furthers dilution of the player population.
3. Mechanics - the alternate advancement system was a radical departure from original EQ game design. While it has it's merits, it would ultimate trivialize a vast amount of content on a locked server like this one.

SoL was not classic Everquest. It was a departure from it. Some people do not consider Velious or Kunark classic for their roles (albeit to a much lesser extent) in some of the above (expanded world, changed mechanics, etc.), but most just view the tweaks in those expansions as a fleshing out of the original design.


I think I would be most appropriate to refer to Luclin as the beginning of the end. It set in process a set of design philosophies that ultimately transformed classic EQ into something different. On it's own, it is closer in design to the original trilogy than subsequent expansions were to the original trilogy, but the original trilogy was obviously more uniform with itself than Luclin was with it.

Incrementalism makes it difficult to establish cut offs because each person values things differently from the next. In the case of classic EQ I make that cut-off based on clearly identifiable change. Personally, I would prefer just vanilla and Kunark because Velious radically alterred end game, placing too much emphasis on it. Of course Kunark increased level cap and added a new mechanic (disciplines), but otherwise largely let be the way we played the game.

In the end preference can't really be reasoned with. I like what I like because I like it and you like what you like because you like it. We can come up with all sorts of reasons why, but ultimately those reasons only make sense to those with shared preferences ^^

[Taryth]

If you can't see how going from fighting dragons on middle-earth to warping to the moon to fight aliens is, in essence, the downfall of Everquest lore, I can't help you.

It has nothing to do with the Vah Shir. It has everything to do with classic EverQuest Lore.



I mean, really?

The Vah Shir were excommunicated from their homeland and sent to the moon of Luclin by Erudites, but are tolerant of all races and religions? Not even a little grudge?

So in actuality, the Erudites are not the oppressed race, but it is the Vah Shir.

SoE should have given a portion of Odus back to the Vah Shir in future expansions, as an apology for teleporting them off of Norrath.

So warping to planes is ok, but warping to a moon is not ok. Fighting cthulhu-like squid-men in a burning plane ruled over by a . . . giant . . . thing is ok, but not a humanoid cat race on the moon? Floating islands lorded by genies and bird men is ok, but not temples with snake men? Lizard men temples are ok, but not snake men. Got it.

Mental gymnastics.

[myriverse]

If you can't see how going from fighting dragons on middle-earth to warping to the moon to fight aliens is, in essence, the downfall of Everquest lore, I can't help you.
Barrier Peaks! One of the best old school D&D modules of all time. Spaceship, aliens, robots. 100% pure awesomeness. If you don't see it, you're beyond help.

Dammit... now I'm hungry for a froghemoth! That's behemoth frog... or is it frog behemoth...

[Rangerboy]

I really loved Luclin and PoP. I understand and respect if Project 99 does not want to implement it into their classic server since classic is fun too, but on the other hand I think it would be a good idea maybe to set up a P99 team 2 or something to have a PoP server. I wonder what would happen if DayBreak decides to open a direct PoP server with no progression, how many people would go to it. I've lost a lot of trust in EQ live, and I doubt that would ever happen, but im pretty sure that would lower the P99 population (for better or for worse).

[maskedmelon]

I really loved Luclin and PoP. I understand and respect if Project 99 does not want to implement it into their classic server since classic is fun too, but on the other hand I think it would be a good idea maybe to set up a P99 team 2 or something to have a PoP server. I wonder what would happen if DayBreak decides to open a direct PoP server with no progression, how many people would go to it. I've lost a lot of trust in EQ live, and I doubt that would ever happen, but im pretty sure that would lower the P99 population (for better or for worse).

If PoP is the sweet spot for you, I would suggest checking out TakProject (macemu).

[Cazlo]

I find it funny that so many people mention bazaar ruining interaction, when as it stands with the wiki and auction trackers..it is essentially a bazaar without having a trader mode on..very little interaction..

Player A: What are you asking for X item?
Player B: Wiki has it at Y price
Player A: Ok

...how is that different..shrug

The difference is that you at least still have to talk to someone in order to buy something from them.

[Neoptolemus12]

Incrementalism makes it difficult to establish cut offs because each person values things differently from the next. In the case of classic EQ I make that cut-off based on clearly identifiable change. Personally, I would prefer just vanilla and Kunark because Velious radically alterred end game, placing too much emphasis on it. Of course Kunark increased level cap and added a new mechanic (disciplines), but otherwise largely let be the way we played the game.

This I think hits the nail on the head, the gameplay changes of Luclin were a natural response to the change in priorities that happened during Velious. As players became more concerned with raiding and less concerned

[kaev]

...
Personally, I would prefer just vanilla and Kunark because Velious radically alterred end game, placing too much emphasis on it. Of course Kunark increased level cap and added a new mechanic (disciplines), but otherwise largely let be the way we played the game.
...

Completely agree. All of my RL & in-game friends from original EQ, except for one die-hard roleplayer, were gone within a couple months of Velious release. It was the emphasis on the raid game in the content design that chased them off.

Original EQ was a casual gamer's paradise. At release, there was only Naggy and Vox. The planes were not obvious as the harbingers of doom that they were, at the time they were reservations to keep the self-proclaimed ubers away from normal decent human beings.

Kunark was allright. The dungeon bosses of Kunark were in the style of Vox & Naggy, Kunark's overland dragons were an extension of the concept of original EQ's zone sweepers like the EC griffins and NK's Grimfeather, and VP was just another plane to keep the epeen-obsessed occupied someplace away from the sane population.

Then the brakes came off with Velious.

Once you've gone Velious you're not :classic: anymore. The emphasis on interesting bits of lore and minor quests and storylines for low level characters and roleplayers is gone with Velious. Everything is about mechanical loot acquisition. Storylines & lore drive nothing, they are pasted on afterthoughts in the style of the shittiest of the epic quest storylines from Kunark.


Even so I'm having fun. Done lots of things I didn't do the first time around on live. Looking forward to doing plenty more stuff that's new to me in coming years of Velious.

[Itap]

So warping to planes is ok, but warping to a moon is not ok. Fighting cthulhu-like squid-men in a burning plane ruled over by a . . . giant . . . thing is ok, but not a humanoid cat race on the moon? Floating islands lorded by genies and bird men is ok, but not temples with snake men? Lizard men temples are ok, but not snake men. Got it.

Mental gymnastics.

Warping to a plane where a certain god or demi-god rules is aligned with classic EverQuest lore. Warping to outer space like we're on a NASA mission is quite the stretch for a D&D type MMO.

That Expansion seems so forced, everything from Lore, Zones, Mobs, character models, and the list goes on. Don't you remember when SoL was released, that half the raid zones and quests were broken or unfinished.

Also, I was being a little facetious with my OP.

[Seltius]

I think I would be most appropriate to refer to Luclin as the beginning of the end. It set in process a set of design philosophies that ultimately transformed classic EQ into something different. On it's own, it is closer in design to the original trilogy than subsequent expansions were to the original trilogy, but the original trilogy was obviously more uniform with itself than Luclin was with it.

Incrementalism makes it difficult to establish cut offs because each person values things differently from the next. In the case of classic EQ I make that cut-off based on clearly identifiable change. Personally, I would prefer just vanilla and Kunark because Velious radically alterred end game, placing too much emphasis on it. Of course Kunark increased level cap and added a new mechanic (disciplines), but otherwise largely let be the way we played the game.

In the end preference can't really be reasoned with. I like what I like because I like it and you like what you like because you like it. We can come up with all sorts of reasons why, but ultimately those reasons only make sense to those with shared preferences ^^


Wasnt SoV the last expansion that Verant did completely? IIRC Sony took over right before SoL was released(well before it was ready to be released) So alot of the change in direction and the mechanics in the game along with the rushed releases were due to an almost complete overhaul of the team working on the project.

Anyone who questions how incomplete SoL was on release need only look at archived threads about VT, AC, and other zones, mechanics, and encounters that were broken or unfinished some of which I am sure you would still find broken today.

[maskedmelon]

Wasnt SoV the last expansion that Verant did completely? IIRC Sony took over right before SoL was released(well before it was ready to be released) So alot of the change in direction and the mechanics in the game along with the rushed releases were due to an almost complete overhaul of the team working on the project.



Sony was always involved. VI started in Sony, was spun-off and re-acquired. However, the spirit of your question/argument is spot on because the original developers (Brad & co) departed to form their own company (Sigil) and begin work on VSoH around that time.

[Seltius]

Sony was always involved. VI started in Sony, was spun-off and re-acquired. However, the spirit of your question/argument is spot on because the original developers (Brad & co) departed to form their own company (Sigil) and begin work on VSoH around that time.

Right I guess I should have clarified that the dev team that worked on the project changed and they dropped the Verant section when they just changed it to Sony Online Entertainment. So with the changes in the Dev team and direction so changed the feel and spirit of the game.

[Taryth]

Warping to a plane where a certain god or demi-god rules is aligned with classic EverQuest lore. Warping to outer space like we're on a NASA mission is quite the stretch for a D&D type MMO.

That Expansion seems so forced, everything from Lore, Zones, Mobs, character models, and the list goes on. Don't you remember when SoL was released, that half the raid zones and quests were broken or unfinished.

Also, I was being a little facetious with my OP.

You don't know what DnD is if you think it didn't include "outer space."
I don't see what your reservation is with porting to the moon. Spaceships aren't involved. It's Wizards and Druid, and magical portal spires. There's nothing sci-fi about it. Spelljammer and Planescape were both around long before EQ released, and EQ is based on the principles set forth by DnD.

What about the lore was "forced"? It finally integrated the Shissar into the playable scope of EQ lore. What about the mobs and zones was "forced"? Can you elucidate, or will you continue to throw out vague notions that you can't actually explain?

The character models were love-hate. I think they're great. I don't see what the problem is. They're stiffly animated, but the models themselves are fantastic. They consume a great deal of resources, which sucked at the time SoL was released, but that's no longer an issue.

I wasn't raiding at the time of SoL release, so I don't really know or care about that. It could be completed/fixed here (or on another server, though), so I don't see why that is such an issue, either. Luclin was to Velious what Kunark was to Vanilla. An expansion that spanned all levels and vastly increased the possibilities of play. I think spell foci and AA were my favorite parts of SoL.

I hope the devs at least include spell foci in any future custom content, if nothing else.

[Secrets]

I hope the devs at least include spell foci in any future custom content, if nothing else.

+1 for this, spell foci is the one thing I completely forgot about that is absolutely balanced in EQ

[Atmas]

I often wonder what the reaction would have been to Luclin would have been if the same content was just on an island over some previously uncrossed mountains instead of the moon.

Ssra was an awesome zone surrounded by the awesome concept of The Grey. Vex Thal sucked but the loot was good. Honestly the updates with AAs, resists, and other fight scripts added so much more to the mechanics than Velious. Don't get me wrong, I like Velious and it has great content including fights, faction, and zones, but mechanically most classes are just getting stats +X%. Which was fine with Velious, but another expansion like Velious would have been bleh.

Also people will have different opinions on different aspects. I personally don't care much for EC, and if people wanted to haggle that opportunity didn't go away. I also liked mounts because they were a good addition to advance a character without being game breaking, which is what you want from most content. As a wizard who made money from ports I felt in no way threatened by the Nexus, a person using the Nexus ports to get somewhere might spend 30 minutes in transit and not even be at their destination. Really not much different than boats. In fact I probably made a lot more money because on a PvP server the Nexus and Bazaar were a good hangout spot to port people from.

[Clark]

Luclin is the best expansion, follow by Kunark, then Velious.

[Clark]

This one's for you Swish!

http://imgur.com/gallery/piR2jvS

[Daldaen]

Luclin is the best expansion, follow by Kunark, then Velious.

PoP -> Luclin -> The Rest

[Jumjum]

PoP -> Luclin -> The Rest

This is the description of someone who likes things given to them and not have to earn them :).

[Erydan Ouragan]

PoP -> Luclin -> The Rest

Lore-wise, i prefer Luclin over PoP, but purely for gameplay/AAs/spells PoP was the cherry on top.

Playing on a classic server compared to a PoP server, is kind of like comparing living in a shack versus living in a fully furnished house with electricity and running water.

The Luclin+PoP combo took a game that was "good" to "phenomenal". It's crazy how it's still the same game, yet so much better.

[wycca]

There's definitely no denying that the base gameplay/classes/mechanics in Classic->Velious was old and stale by the time they launched Luclin. Sorry, it's just a fact. People may not agree with Luclin, but Luclin+PoP = a great combo. Even LDoN and GoD made for a good combo as it explored Augs (which was a worthwhile game addition) and instancing.

For all the hate that the Moon gets, there's no denying that it's a real shame there is no Emu with as high of a production value as P99 working on Luclin+PoP.

[Daldaen]

This is the description of someone who likes things given to them and not have to earn them :).

I liked coordinating a raid to take on Rathe council.

You know the raid where you have to offtank 6 mobs that quad for 2k when tanks barely can reach 10k HP buffed. Also you had to mez 6 mobs at 5%, and keep them Mezzed for several hours. Then when all were ready you had to kill them within a 7 minute window. Keeping enchantees coordinated to lock down mobs and groups of Offtanks alive to deal with unmezables was a feat in an era when there wasn't much voice chat prevalent, and your raid was 60 people with about 10-15 boxes.

Suggesting PoP was an era when things were handed to you is laughable, especially at the raid level. PoP was far more challenging than any Content in Velious. Velious is all corner tank 1-2 AEs and maybe rampage and flurry, but that's it. It's extremely bland when you compare it to PoP.


PoP simply had better groupable content, better raid content, better tradeskills, some solid quests, awesome lord, and about the closest they ever got to balancing the PvE game at the group and raid levels.

A man can dream one day a server locked in PoP will exist with the attention to detail that P99 pays. Or SOE sells the EQMac client and code to someone who then hosts an Authentic PoP server with Classic UI restrictions, AC, Combat tables, everything. Mmm soo tasty

[Synthlol]

Which were? I don't see any deviation from "classic" in Luclin.

You can't be serious....


In addition to: the lessened importance of race/faction

SoL introduced a new graphics engine, Alternate Advancement, the Bazaar, horse mounts, bane weapons, and beastlords.

Get it together, Daldaen.

[kaev]

PoP simply had better groupable content, better raid content, better tradeskills, some solid quests, awesome lord, and about the closest they ever got to balancing the PvE game at the group and raid levels.


PoP sucked donkey balls for casual players. It was a shit sandwich smothered in shit gravy unless you were a dedicated raider. Most useless EQ expansion ever for the casual: "Here have some free shit handed to you with zero interesting gameplay attached, now go away except we want you to keep paying that subscription fee every month." Original+Kunark were immeasurably superior to PoP if you weren't drinking the EQ raider kool-aid.

[Telin]

Luclin/PoP = 80% time in Bazaar or PoK

I'll stay in Norrath.

[Aviann]

This is the description of someone who likes things given to them and not have to earn them :).

This is a quote from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

You ever raided in PoP, son? I'm guessing you haven't considering the uneducated remark you made about his opinion. PoP endgame was increasingly difficult without the right toolset. PoW for example. If you didn't know that shit was challenging as fuck when the top guilds attempted it, you are definitely not worthy of what you just said.

It took me a year to get that sword off the prismatic dragon in PoValor for my paladin... and it looked fucking sweet as fuck too. Best 2h graphics in the game at the time imo.

[Aviann]

Not to mention when we finally got to PoTime it was broken and we took a raid suspension for actually getting as far as we did for no god damn reason... Literally a raid suspension for testing ourselves in a plane we deserved to finally be in after a lot of effort.

I still love you Jumjum, but PoP wasn't all about handouts. It had an intense and contested endgame as well as a fuckton of quests that were dealing with the Gods and demigods themselves, which was amazing as hell, even to the casual.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Shit handed to you for free? Yeah..

Like Daldaen said, the rathe council event in PoE was extremely challenging, because one mistake or bad luck, it was over.

I remember us doing it, the whole thing took hours. Everyone had to pay attention and stay focused. Overdps and kill the mob? Wipe it and start over. Chanter gets a bad string of resist and mob wakes up? Chanter gets 1 rounded, mob is free and attacking everyone in the mez-cave, that's another wipe.

Thinking PoP was a welfare expansion with handouts is ridiculous. Not only the raids were hard, but you also had to compete for them, and competition was ferocious. Between guilds and between players in the same guild too. The drama over Blade of War from RZ... Guilds disbanded because of that shit.

[wycca]

PoP sucked donkey balls for casual players. It was a shit sandwich smothered in shit gravy unless you were a dedicated raider. Most useless EQ expansion ever for the casual: "Here have some free shit handed to you with zero interesting gameplay attached, now go away except we want you to keep paying that subscription fee every month." Original+Kunark were immeasurably superior to PoP if you weren't drinking the EQ raider kool-aid.

There were new quests and tradeskills available. There was a neat group flag system that led to Tower of SolRo, BoT, HoH, etc. You got rewarded, in the end, with challenging group content and ornate.

[Eliseus]

Luclin/PoP = 80% time in Bazaar or PoK

I'll stay in Norrath.

Yeah I agree, because using the tools provided on this website for people to know what you are selling or sitting in ecommons all day is way different.

On topic. Most of the hate is derived from ignorance OP. People use stuff like "cats on the moon" to validate the hate for an expansion for a game that is about fantasy. Most stuff like the 30 min spires and bazaar are actually completely irrelevant and just more BS to be spewed to try and validate the hate some more.

I do understand the hate for the graphics though. That being said its 2015 and if you are playing EQ in the first place because you think the graphics are phenomenal then there is other issues at hand. It does though take away from the "nostalgia" that some people are looking for. Luckily there was this really cool thing you could do called not enabling them.

I'm sure though wether it was ever implemented or not, the pop would stay roughly the same, and honestly with the talked about "green" server it would be interesting to see the devs keep imitating live better then live.

This all being said, Luclin AND PoP both caused NO negative impact on the game and was not "the beginning of the end" so many people try to claim, hence the growing subs that existed during that time. Again, it is completely fabricated that some majority of population somewhere in no where land hated Luclin, because it's not true. Maybe the majority on this forums, but I can't speak for that nor feel you would ever get accurate condenenses given the amount of trolls etc.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Yeah I agree, because using the tools provided on this website for people to know what you are selling or sitting in ecommons all day is way different.

On topic. Most of the hate is derived from ignorance OP. People use stuff like "cats on the moon" to validate the hate for an expansion for a game that is about fantasy. Most stuff like the 30 min spires and bazaar are actually completely irrelevant and just more BS to be spewed to try and validate the hate some more.

I do understand the hate for the graphics though. That being said its 2015 and if you are playing EQ in the first place because you think the graphics are phenomenal then there is other issues at hand. It does though take away from the "nostalgia" that some people are looking for. Luckily there was this really cool thing you could do called not enabling them.

I'm sure though wether it was ever implemented or not, the pop would stay roughly the same, and honestly with the talked about "green" server it would be interesting to see the devs keep imitating live better then live.

This all being said, Luclin AND PoP both caused NO negative impact on the game and was not "the beginning of the end" so many people try to claim, hence the growing subs that existed during that time. Again, it is completely fabricated that some majority of population somewhere in no where land hated Luclin, because it's not true. Maybe the majority on this forums, but I can't speak for that nor feel you would ever get accurate condenenses given the amount of trolls etc.

That's correct, bold part for emphasis.

You see a lot of hate for Luclin/PoP on these forums because this is a server dedicated to classic. So it has a high concentration of people who think classic EQ is the best, and that anything added after ruined the game. Like you said, growing subs during these expansions is the proof that the game was doing great.

I was an avid forum reader during the time i played, i remember the reactions people had when new stuff was added. You could almost hear the collective orgasm of rangers when archery mastery and endless quiver were implemented. They felt that, finally, their class became what it was supposed to be all along.

I remember clerics throwing their panties in a bunch over druids getting their ghetto CH, but then divine arbitration+group heal became the new way to heal when they realized they could be a battle cleric by summoning a proccing hammer of what the fuck and regen mana standing with yaulp. Suddenly druids having a CH didn't matter so much, because clerics were still needed in raids and group healing became fun and interactive.

I remember people being slack-jawed at wizard dps. They went from hate/sky port bitches to desired in groups due to crits, mana conservation and spell dmg focii, harvest AA and FT on gear becoming more prevalent. Warriors were not struggling for threat like they do on p99. Even though they didn't have weapon proc AA in PoP yet, they had ingenuity, allowing them to crit from procs. Casters having Spell Casting Subtlety AA made it that they generated less threat. That helped warrior tanking a lot, while still being raiding tank kings.

There was some people who didn't like it, but the huge majority of people playing during Luclin/PoP were loving the game and where it was at.

"Cats on the moon" is just a meme, it doesn't mean anything other than "meh, i just don't like it", it's not a real argument. Because there are no real arguments. They can say they don't like it, they can state their preferences and their reasons, while emotional, are valid for them.

But as far as the gameplay, class balance (inter & versus content) and general improvements, there is simply no way you can't deny the game was just better during Luclin/PoP. Not "not like it", that's fine to not like it, but to actually say "the game was worse than it was during classic/kunark/velious", sorry that's being delusional.

There are preferences and there are facts. Luclin/PoP made the game better, that's just a fact.

[Alhill]

I loved luclin, but it was the begging of the end, I hope we never see it :P:P

[iruinedyourday]

you know what else had growing subs, world of warcrafat.

[ArumTP]

That's correct, bold part for emphasis.

You see a lot of hate for Luclin/PoP on these forums because this is a server dedicated to classic. So it has a high concentration of people who think classic EQ is the best, and that anything added after ruined the game. Like you said, growing subs during these expansions is the proof that the game was doing great.

I was an avid forum reader during the time i played, i remember the reactions people had when new stuff was added. You could almost hear the collective orgasm of rangers when archery mastery and endless quiver were implemented. They felt that, finally, their class became what it was supposed to be all along.

I remember clerics throwing their panties in a bunch over druids getting their ghetto CH, but then divine arbitration+group heal became the new way to heal when they realized they could be a battle cleric by summoning a proccing hammer of what the fuck and regen mana standing with yaulp. Suddenly druids having a CH didn't matter so much, because clerics were still needed in raids and group healing became fun and interactive.

I remember people being slack-jawed at wizard dps. They went from hate/sky port bitches to desired in groups due to crits, mana conservation and spell dmg focii, harvest AA and FT on gear becoming more prevalent. Warriors were not struggling for threat like they do on p99. Even though they didn't have weapon proc AA in PoP yet, they had ingenuity, allowing them to crit from procs. Casters having Spell Casting Subtlety AA made it that they generated less threat. That helped warrior tanking a lot, while still being raiding tank kings.

There was some people who didn't like it, but the huge majority of people playing during Luclin/PoP were loving the game and where it was at.

"Cats on the moon" is just a meme, it doesn't mean anything other than "meh, i just don't like it", it's not a real argument. Because there are no real arguments. They can say they don't like it, they can state their preferences and their reasons, while emotional, are valid for them.

But as far as the gameplay, class balance (inter & versus content) and general improvements, there is simply no way you can't deny the game was just better during Luclin/PoP. Not "not like it", that's fine to not like it, but to actually say "the game was worse than it was during classic/kunark/velious", sorry that's being delusional.

There are preferences and there are facts. Luclin/PoP made the game better, that's just a fact.

ALL THIS

[Lorian]

But as far as the gameplay, class balance (inter & versus content) and general improvements, there is simply no way you can't deny the game was just better during Luclin/PoP. Not "not like it", that's fine to not like it, but to actually say "the game was worse than it was during classic/kunark/velious", sorry that's being delusional.

There are preferences and there are facts. Luclin/PoP made the game better, that's just a fact. +1

Best post so far in the thread!

[Daldaen]

You can't be serious....


In addition to:

SoL introduced a new graphics engine, Alternate Advancement, the Bazaar, horse mounts, bane weapons, and beastlords.

Get it together, Daldaen.

New graphics engine for player models you could turn off.

AAs - Playing and earning experience, increases characters power. Sound very Classic and DnD like.
Bazaar - Increased the amount of low end stuff for sale. Stuff that previously got destroyed, that wasn't worth the time to sell in EC now got put up in the bazaar. This was an excellent addition.
Horses - Made playing a caster in an outdoor zone a bit more convenient, and provided a decent money sink in game. For purposes of traveling they were pretty useless unless you got a raid one, group one or spent 100k. They certainly didn't devalue SoW for your general gamer.
Bane Weapons - Same idea as Invulnerable Willowisps. Just another mechanic with some lord behind it on why you cannot hurt extremely powerful mobs. Superman had kryptonite. Emperor Ssra and LIS had Banes.
Beastlords - Great class added. Finally the slowing role in a group could be filled reliably by a hybrid. More buffs/special abilities. A pet class for people who prefer Melee over casters. It was a decent mix of many existing classes with some unique aspects.

I wasnt a fan of the nee PC models in many cases. But the rest were great improvements to the game. Banes were annoying to farm, but were hardly required to complete the content.

[Telin]

New graphics engine for player models you could turn off.



i have to say that this option didn't help because It still affected how others were seeing me. I didn't like the fact that other players were looking at different models than me. It broke my immersion.

[Daldaen]

i have to say that this option didn't help because It still affected how others were seeing me. I didn't like the fact that other players were looking at different models than me. It broke my immersion.

Haha. Not sure if serious.

But if serious, I hope we can break the use of Luclin Models and updated Textures here on P99. Also breaking UIs with pet windows, percentages, multiple hotbar pages, multiple chat boxes, item linking.

One day I hope P99 wrecks all those things. Maybe by the time Green99 is out. Then we will see who really likes classic EQ.

[maskedmelon]

This all being said, Luclin AND PoP both caused NO negative impact on the game and was not "the beginning of the end" so many people try to claim, hence the growing subs that existed during that time. Again, it is completely fabricated that some majority of population somewhere in no where land hated Luclin, because it's not true. Maybe the majority on this forums, but I can't speak for that nor feel you would ever get accurate condenenses given the amount of trolls etc.

Not sure I can say I've seen anyone argue this, because we understand that we are minority and that's why we are here on Project 1999 and the reason a select few of us were (the development team) were ambitious enough to restore that experience.

If you want PoP go play TakProject. If a similar experience will suffice, go play anything else. If neither of those appeal, persuade someone to make a server to your liking. Otherwise you are stuck with what we have here :/ Sorry.

[Itap]

There is a reason why Project 1999 has had the highest population over any other EverQuest Emulator over the past 5 years.

I look at classic Everquest (Vanilla +RoK and SoV) as a separate game from SoL and beyond. I'm not denying that the game did not get better with Luclin, but it deviated from, what I feel, the original design. Again, just my opinion.

But I guess every MMO has to adapt and cater to everyone or else people will lose interest and SOE will lose subscription money.

[Seltius]

You all are starting to lose sight of the point here. It isnt that PoP or even Luclin wasnt fun. It is the fact that they were no longer considered classic content by the people who make the decisions and put all the effort and work into this server. I dont know that I have ever seen Luclin or PoP called classic content before. I know SoV was pushing it but there are at least common threads between SoL and Kunark/Vanilla EQ. That being the original Dev team and locations.

Oh and I did get to raid PoP content and it was amazing. I wish I could go back and play through that expansion again but if the Devs here decide not to add it well at least I am getting to relive Vanilla-SoV to an extent and am grateful.

[pasi]

Daldaen and Secrets hit most of the pro-Luclin points already.

I think that other than zone/NPC graphic schemes, the biggest negative against Luclin is the lack of a traditional camp/PH style dungeon. Luclin has a ton of minimal-use flyover zones, but so do Velious and Kunark. There are a ton of camps in Luclin, but there is really no dungeon with the traditional camp/PH seen in Guk, SolB, Sebilis, Velketors, etc.

The closest thing to this would be Maiden's Eye (which was the most populated exp spot during SoL). Unfortunately, Maiden's Eye was outdoors and most of the good shit was no-drop. Fungus Grove mostly followed a random-drop model, Acrylia was an AE zone, and Umbral Plains was a plane with a few long spawn PHs.

As mentioned above, there was an abundance of camps and ways to make money in Luclin, you just had to be very pro-active and pre-form a group prior to reaching a destination. That 100% does not work with PUGs and imo, contributed heavily to the expansion's reception.

[Daldaen]

Ssra was a decent camp zone. Vah Shir illusion, Ring of Shissar components, Summoned Fangs clicky pouch, Voice of the Serpent Clicky, Fast Horses. Not to mention the other 10 named in zone with decent stat items but not clickies.

Beyond that though you're mostly correct, Ssra wasn't quite the size/number of camps as Sebilis but it was pretty decent with several keyed and locked areas with more named. It was size able enough to support several groups. It had a bit less of a "crawl" style setup since it was more open to get from entrance to most camps. It probably had the same number of named/camps as Velketors but the majority of the loot was no drop.

The Deep had a few decent named mobs, but half the zone didn't get used by many because of the fear of death by invis bridge. It's a shame more people didn't do the floating moss rock quest, which was a really neat idea.

Akheva Ruins was just a bad zone outside of the raid content. Acrylia was an AE fest, the inner sanctum was very unique and the trials/events there were cool but very few got to do them before revamp. Griegs was mostly empty but you could spawn named in traps I think, many of which were very interesting drops like bind wound skill modifiers and such. I *think* that's about it as far as high level dungeons go.

I think the No Drop loot thing is worth mentioning also as that tended to be one shift in Velious and later Luclin. A lot of loot started to become no drop, which I think is a good thing. Less farming AC or Rogue Epics or Fungi King for the 100th time to buy an upgrade. Instead you had to go camp or quest the upgrade yourself. But I'm do understand some people aren't a fan of this.

[Erydan Ouragan]

I think the No Drop loot thing is worth mentioning also as that tended to be one shift in Velious and later Luclin. A lot of loot started to become no drop, which I think is a good thing. Less farming AC or Rogue Epics or Fungi King for the 100th time to buy an upgrade. Instead you had to go camp or quest the upgrade yourself. But I'm do understand some people aren't a fan of this.

But trading items is classic! If everything is no-drop, how can i tunnelquest and flip items to make enough money so that i can buy a whole set of end-game gear and pay for a PL?

This is why i like classic, it's hard and unforgiving and it forces people to be social and makes the game feel alive. That's why when i solo with my fungi and epic and die at level 22, i send a tell to an epic cleric 6 zones away and ask him to come rez me.

[Mandalore93]

*quivers slightly*

Luclin was one of the best ground breaking expansions in MMO history. It introduced 3d mounts, automated trading, and different ways to condense a smaller low level population through things like Paludal Caverns and the nexus.

And "Oh no! Cats on the MOON?!?!?!" God forbid the developers try something new and even give it a somewhat solid high fantasy background.

[tristantio]

The rarity of NO DROP gear in EQ is what made it so good and replayable (twinking) IMHO.

[Nommie]

Skip luclin. Launch planes of power with no PoK books.



I would be okay with this actually. POK killed porters as well as Luclin making mounts which i could care less. and cat people and Moon zones were junk graphics were crap however i did like AC

[maskedmelon]

The rarity of NO DROP gear in EQ is what made it so good and replayable (twinking) IMHO.

Also what makes it unique, or classic. Virtually every modern mmo employs no drop equipment. SoL/PoP (cannot recall which) where we first started seeing level restricted gear (outside of procs/effects).

[maskedmelon]

*quivers slightly*

Luclin was one of the best ground breaking expansions in MMO history.

Even though the perspective is different, this perfectly illustrates why Luclin is uniquely disqualified as Classic Everquest. Thanks for your support ^^ <3

[Mandalore93]

No, it's exactly why it's a part of classic EverQuest. EQ1 was THE ground breaking MMO. Luclin and PoP in particular continued and heightened that trend.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Also what makes it unique, or classic. Virtually every modern mmo employs no drop equipment. SoL/PoP (cannot recall which) where we first started seeing level restricted gear (outside of procs/effects).

Velious introduced level restrictions on some items, actually.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Fellspine%27s_Tail

Granted, that's on very few items, but from there, we can make the logical conclusion that Velious was the beginning of the end.

[Millburn]

No, it's exactly why it's a part of classic EverQuest. EQ1 was THE ground breaking MMO. Luclin and PoP in particular continued and heightened that trend.

Well..no that's not how that works man. Yes Luclin and PoP were ground breaking and heightened that trend but that's exactly why they are not classic everquest. They're wholesomely Everquest, quintessential even .. but no, not classic by any stretch of the imagination. They are the vanguard of modern Everquest. That's not knocking them, I enjoyed what they had (sans the shit models) but come on man...you're reaching.

[Synthlol]

Ok, besides the fact that beastlords were the first new class added, they really weren't too much of a depature from the classic game. They kinda sucked before PoP anyways.

Also, bane weapons weren't a huge part of the expansion, sure.


AAs - Playing and earning experience, increases characters power. Sound very Classic and DnD like.

You're being lazy.

Increasing PC power is the focus of all of these types of games, making this a poor argument for it representing classic everquest. AA's greatly increased the potency of the game's classes, but the new content was simply balanced around this new potency level. This trivialized an inordinate amount the previous content, on a scale far greater than the new items on Velious or Kunark empowered players with respect to the previous iteration of the game.

What AA's really did was renew a massive experience grinding responsibility in order to keep your character relevant. In classic, you had to make it through the marathon that was 1-60, but then you were done. You just had to show up to raids or hit the camps you wanted to. Shadows of Luclin made simply being max level insufficient in a sense. Before Luclin, max level was a defining achievement.

Bazaar - Increased the amount of low end stuff for sale. Stuff that previously got destroyed, that wasn't worth the time to sell in EC now got put up in the bazaar. This was an excellent addition.

This is a reason why you like the bazaar. It is not a reason why the bazaar doesn't represent a departure from classic.

The bazaar was excellent in the sense that it made buying selling easier, more efficient and less time consuming, but that is exactly why it doesn't belong here. Classic Everquest isn't about automation; this isn't a Showtime Rotisserie economy. It's about the challenge of finding what you want.

Removing the social interaction from trade was a deathblow to the spirit of the game. Why do you think Nilbog is so proud of his EC tunnel? Why do you think p99 is the highest populated emulated server? Trade is accomplished via the barter system. You're advocating the Wal-Mart system.

Horses - Made playing a caster in an outdoor zone a bit more convenient, and provided a decent money sink in game. For purposes of traveling they were pretty useless unless you got a raid one, group one or spent 100k. They certainly didn't devalue SoW for your general gamer.

You just argued that everyone riding a horse while simultaneously bypassing Everquest's major concession required for timely mana regeneration didn't detract from the game's identity.

[maskedmelon]

from there, we can make the logical conclusion that Velious was the beginning of the end.

If you say so. I guess that just adds more marks against SoL then :/ since it is after your well reasoned "beginning of the end."

[Mandalore93]

Well..no that's not how that works man. Yes Luclin and PoP were ground breaking and heightened that trend but that's exactly why they are not classic everquest. They're wholesomely Everquest, quintessential even .. but no, not classic by any stretch of the imagination. They are the vanguard of modern Everquest. That's not knocking them, I enjoyed what they had (sans the shit models) but come on man...you're reaching.

Your reasoning is just as subjective as mine and everyone else's here haha. This thread has no actual meaning of course. People who are here are here for Classic to Velious and people who are on the TAKP or P2002 are there for Classic to PoP.

[Millburn]

Your reasoning is just as subjective as mine and everyone else's here haha. This thread has no actual meaning of course. People who are here are here for Classic and people who are on the TAKP or P2002 are there for Classic + Luclin and PoP.

[Mandalore93]

I was speaking classic as in Vanilla and using the word "to" means that it includes everything up to and including PoP. :P

By the way, Ann Arbor? Out in L-town myself

[Millburn]

By the way, Ann Arbor? Out in L-town myself

I really need to update that! I bought a house out by Grand Blanc now so I'm not really in the A2 area anymore. I really miss it though =(

[iruinedyourday]

if you dont understand that the EC tunnel and the karanas are classic everquest then you just dont understand classic everquest.

[Eliseus]

Not sure I can say I've seen anyone argue this, because we understand that we are minority and that's why we are here on Project 1999 and the reason a select few of us were (the development team) were ambitious enough to restore that experience.

If you want PoP go play TakProject. If a similar experience will suffice, go play anything else. If neither of those appeal, persuade someone to make a server to your liking. Otherwise you are stuck with what we have here :/ Sorry.

Get off your high horse. Can people not argue the greatness of an expansion without caring if it was ever implemented or not?

[khanable]

if you dont understand that the EC tunnel and the karanas are classic everquest then you just dont understand classic everquest.

+1

go play wow you cat cuddlers

:p

[maskedmelon]

Get off your high horse. Can people not argue the greatness of an expansion without caring if it was ever implemented or not?

Not sure I follow the high horse deal. I was acknowledging that we players who prefer classic EQ are in fact a minority. How that elevates us in your mind is beyond me.

But yes, you are free to discuss whatever you like. Interestingly though the title of the thread is "Why do people seem to hate Luclin so much?" But it has served as a pitching ground for the glory of Luclin. And that's fine, but don't go off half-cocked on people who are answering the question.

If you like I can go create a thread titled "Why do people seem to like Luclin so much?" And we can rehash this whole discussion again, but backwards! ^^

[Eliseus]

Do it.

[Millburn]

Hard to take this guy seriously after this quote...

http://i.imgur.com/LGEdx.gif

[slappytwotoes]

Luclin and PoP were fun but that doesn't make them classic.

[Norathorr]

I did not hate luclin, I just found it underwhelming compared to velious. A lot of it felt incomplete. Seru and Karts for example should have had lots and lots of quest arcs. The seru side in particular felt rather barren and forgotten. I liked the shard quest as I had some really fun groups particularly in Me when our cleric fell asleep and we fought by his side until 3 hours later a gm finally despawned him. Ssra was a great raid zone I adored it. Vt was horrible mobs with high Hp and zero strategy. Vt from an encounter point of view felt unfinished.

Atmosphere-wise luclin felt wrong to me. It looked almost like another game and I know its the moon but it was so far detached I just felt I was not in my good old eq anymore. I think i loved velious so much that luclin was doomed to come second best to it in my mind.

[Clark]

Best expansion.

[webrunner5]

The ONLY Expansion I would call "Classic" is Velious. It is the first Expansion that they finally sort of got all the damn stupid things they did wrong in the first 2 Expansions right.

But don't get me wrong, EQ even at the start was, and still is, pretty amazing when you think how much stuff they had to dream up to make it all happen sort of right. :)

[Jauna]

Luclin took everything that was EverQuest and blew its ass out of proportion.
Mobs AC, holy shit everything was so hard to hit unless you already had raid gear
AA points, I honestly loved the idea of hitting max level to work on other alts while still being on call, but a level 51's level worth of exp for a single AA point, and many abilities went on the 2/4/6 scale, some even costing 9 AAs.. ugh.
Bane weapons, I love camping for loot as much as the next guy but fuck that shit right in the ass, ssra was not as bad as the other dude in the white city. I remember being in either CtV back on whatever fucking server it was after bertox split taking 3 hours to kill emp ssra because we only had like 3 bane weapons
Ring events, they were fun the first few times but.. no, just no.
12 hour vex thal raids, as if getting the key was bad enough you had to break that raid down into 2 or 3 trips and hope the whole "honor" thing stuck with other guilds because of a rotation.
Mixed feelings about the Bazaar, sometimes I wish it was there, other times I hang out in EC just to feel less alone. Dont lie, you do this too.
key camps.

[Speedi]

I enjoyed all expansions up to PoP. Ssra temple was fun times!

[stormlord]

Daldaen and Secrets hit most of the pro-Luclin points already.

I think that other than zone/NPC graphic schemes, the biggest negative against Luclin is the lack of a traditional camp/PH style dungeon. Luclin has a ton of minimal-use flyover zones, but so do Velious and Kunark. There are a ton of camps in Luclin, but there is really no dungeon with the traditional camp/PH seen in Guk, SolB, Sebilis, Velketors, etc.

The closest thing to this would be Maiden's Eye (which was the most populated exp spot during SoL). Unfortunately, Maiden's Eye was outdoors and most of the good shit was no-drop. Fungus Grove mostly followed a random-drop model, Acrylia was an AE zone, and Umbral Plains was a plane with a few long spawn PHs.

As mentioned above, there was an abundance of camps and ways to make money in Luclin, you just had to be very pro-active and pre-form a group prior to reaching a destination. That 100% does not work with PUGs and imo, contributed heavily to the expansion's reception.
I don't think you're going to win this argument. There were a lot of PH's in Luclin.

I'd like to explore this some more though to see if there's any merit.

Another argument I saw was the original development team wasn't around for Luclin. Far as I know, that's untrue. Most of hte original team were gone by 2002, but Luclin launched in late 2001, meaning at least some of the originals were still there during development. Now, it's true Verant was reorganized to become SOE in 2001, so perhaps some management changes happened after it was apparent Everquest was a huge success. BUT I haven't seen anything hard to prove that.

I do prefer the original Everquest up to Velious. I just think many of us over-romanticize things like the EC tunnel. Many also don't appreciate how large the world had become and why the Spires helped to actually strengthen the community by keeping it from being too widely dispersed.

I think it's primarily mudflation which ruined the early game. But this happens in all MMORPGs. You can't blame that on SOE or Smedly. It's a systemic problem. Mudflation attempts to cure an ever-inflating power divide between the lower levels and higher levels. That combined with things like too many zones and a decreasing new player population (and outdated tech) ended up butchering the early game.

Many players in WoW are going after classic WoW servers for the exact same reason we go after p1999. But probably 99% of the players are mistaken about who or what's to blame. I've only met a couple who realize much of teh blame is rooted in development habits and mudflation. Most never get that deep and just reside on the surface, assuming it's some crony in management trying to ruin their game.

[pasi]

I don't think you're going to win this argument. There were a lot of PH's in Luclin.

I'd like to explore this some more though to see if there's any merit.

There's a lot of PHs, but there is no zone that fits what I'm saying.
Luclin did not have a traditional Guk-style dungeon with groups occupying well-known "camps" with short respawn nameds/PHs that mostly have droppable gear for loot.

I know this sounds specific, but it's really not. It's pretty much the blueprint for EQ's most beloved zones: Guk, Mistmoore, SolA, SolB, Sebilis, Karnors, Velketor's, Bastion of Thunder, etc. This is the case until the Cazic Revamp later on in Luclin. The Chardok revamp in Velious doesn't really count as Luclin, but its the closest thing until the CT revamp.

Just quickly going through Luclin zones and if they fit that model:
Akheva Ruins: No.
Dawnshroud Peaks: No.
Echo Caverns: No.
Fungus Grove: I know what you're thinking, but no.
Grieg's End: I love the original Griegs, but no.
Grimling Forest: No.
Hollowshade Moor: No.
Katta Castellum: No.
Marus Seru: No.
Mons Letalis: No.
Netherbian Lair: No
Paludal Caverns: No.
Sanctus Seru: No.
Shadeweaver's Thicket: No.
Shadow Haven: No.
Shar Vahl: No.
The Bazaar: No.
The Deep: I know what you're thinking, but no.
The Grey: PHs and good droppables, but no.
The Nexus: No
The Scarlet Desert: No.
The Tenebrous Mountains: Vampires castle, but mostly no.
The Twilight Sea: No.
The Umbral Plains: No (Essentially a planar zone w/ long respawn PHs)
Vex Thal: No.

The Maiden's Eye: Close, but not a dungeon and mostly no-drop stuff.

Ssraeshza Temple: Arguably Yes. I would just have to see it being used that way to believe it. There's a couple droppable items worth a buck, but the main reason people grouped there was Comm Rings. I can't imagine convincing a PUG to camp a anything else.

[Eliseus]

Your list is 100% biased. Some of those zones fit exactly what you claim they don't.

[pasi]

I'm definitely open to hear which. It's definitely biased by my experiences, but I'd love to hear what other servers grouped.

I left off Acrylia on accident which was originally going with the other 2 "sort of" ones. Acrylia is the most prolific AE zone in the game, but could potentially fit this model provided that it weren't always occupied by AE.

[stormlord]

I'm definitely open to hear which. It's definitely biased by my experiences, but I'd love to hear what other servers grouped.

I left off Acrylia on accident which was originally going with the other 2 "sort of" ones. Acrylia is the most prolific AE zone in the game, but could potentially fit this model provided that it weren't always occupied by AE.
Ok I went through your posts, trying to find the common points. I produced this:

to be traditional camp/ph (in the flavor of Guk, SolA, SolB...), must be/have:
- dungeon
- well known camps
- mostly droppable (and worthwhile) gear
- short respawn named/ph
- PUG-friendly

cannot have/be:
- outdoors
- most of the worthwhile gear is no-drop
- random-drop model
- ae zone (what do you mean exactly by this?)
- mostly long spawn named/ph
- must be pro-active and pre-form group prior to reaching destination

How would you modify that?

I'm struggling to pin down what you're trying to say. Help me piece it together.

No offense intended, or sarcasm.

[iruinedyourday]

Luclin did not have a traditional Guk-style dungeon with groups occupying well-known "camps" with short respawn nameds/PHs that mostly have droppable gear for loot.

I think this is a good litmus test to see if something is classic EQ or not.

*edit* also as of the first expansion the game became more and more 'less classic'. One of the things that I think defines EQ is what pasi says, that I quoted. There was a specific goal to start making the game less like this as early as the Kunark expansion.

The anger the player base had to camp over crowding promoted them to create random drops on mobs you find in kunark. The seb cloak, RBG, sarnak earring, BotH.. all that stuff is designed to reduce the core stuff some of us fans of the very original EQ think, defines EQ. Dungeons being over crowded and players camping static names.

Sure you may not feel that defines EQ becuse you came to your own during luclin.. but all that means is that though you like classic eq, you're nostalgic about something else.

I can tell you I was disappointed with EQ the first time I killed something with a unique name, that didnt drop anything. Something Kunark has in the vast majority over preKunark EQ.

So all I'm saying is if the game started changing as early as kunark, how can you expect fans of the original EQ to agree that an expansion that did something so brazen as to take players off the fucking planet, change all the character models, and add robot merchants for players, to be considered classic?!

[Erydan Ouragan]

robot merchants for players

Ak'Anon not classic!!1

[Beebo11]

I miss centi shortsword and centi longsword

[11bangbang]

i liked everything about luclin.

[Daldaen]

I dunno, people love Velious.

But Velious doesn't Really have a Guk style zone other than maybe Velketors. And Velketor's is really small for what is the Guk style part. There's the spiders which are maybe 2 camps and the dogs which are maybe 2 camps.

Ssra had an equal amount of named and camps, with more quests and better/more interesting raid content. The main difference being that Ssra loot is mostly No Drop. Whereas Velks is mostly tradeable.

No Drop makes you actually have to go out and quest or group your own gear, which I'm a big proponent of. However Kunark people can just flip stuff in EC and buy up whatever they want, which is dumb and not in the spirit of classic at all.

Beyond that though, Velious doesn't have many/any named/ph camp dungeons. There are dungeons like Dragon Necropolis or Siren's Grotto or Kael, but they are all dungeons with high numbers of trash and very few named/ph camps, if any. Which about describes most Luclin dungeons.