Class defining epic

[nuuki]

What would you guys say is the most impactful epic in the game and why? How would you rate them all in order if you had to list them out?

1. Mage? The beast pet?
2. Monk? Crazy fists and haste?
etc. etc.
..
13. Enchanter? Buff basically as good as VoG? Who cares?
14. Necro? Free dot? So?

What do you guys think?

[Pint]

cleric obviously

[Loke]

For raiding utility, cleric. For overall "class defining" - bard without question.

Just to expand - cleric epic has a ton of utility, but doesnt really change the way the class is played. Its a spell they already get, and while super useful, doesnt have nearly the impact on the class as the bard epic does. The cleric epic is really only game changing when youve got a pile of bodies to rez, where as on my bard everything i do is improved by having the epic to such am extent that it actually opens up new play style options that are unavailable to a non-epic bard.

Cant argue against the situational utility of the cleric epic, but in my mind the bard epic is definitely the most "class defining", as ambiguous as that phrase may be.

[Crawdad]

1. Cleric
2-3. Rogue or Bard
<Huge gap here>
4. Everyone else except
<huge gap here>
5. Necro

(Expounding)
Bards will always have theirs equiped here, Clerics only get an "upgrade" out of NToV, Rogues will still equip theirs offhand at least.

Cleric's makes wipe recovery a breeze, especially with a necro/monk+rez stick.
Rogue's lets them start doing that crazy DPS that they do.
Bard's is honestly #1 in what it adds to the class, but its not as amazing as silly Dps/Rez sticks until fights last longer.


Warrior/Monk/SK/Ranger/Pally/Ench/Mage/Wiz/Druid/Sham are all nice but don't really change anything for the class and are replaced with NToV/ST/AoW loot except to click.

Necro's is incredibly hard to finish and not great until Snare stacks with Root... and even then the VP sticks are better. It does however resemble a duck.

[kaev]

Only the Paladin gets a true flaming epeen to wave about. Even if the particle effect looks more like a backyard gas grille than a flaming sword, it's the best the game has to offer.

The EQ Paladin Motto: Live fast, ram your flaming agro magnet up some dragon's ass, leave a good looking corpse.

[-Catherin-]

Bard epic is really the only epic I can think of that fundamentally changes how the actual class operates and is played. Depends what your definition of class defining is but to me that covers it.

[Kileras]

i wish i could get a bard epic some day... it is depressing to know it is basically impossible.

[Ele]

cleric obviously

[Ezalor]

cleric/bard

everything else is just a varying degree of "it's nice to have"

[azeth]

1. cleric
2. bard
3. magician
4. rogue (consider BiS for Rogue in Kunark doesnt involve RB, but it's insanely easy to obtain and reasonably may be your permanent primary weapon if you're casual even throughout Velious)
5. ranger (offhand)

[iruinedyourday]

Wait no shaman on the list so far? The difference between one with and one without is practically the difference between two different classes altogether.

Different.

[nuuki]

Yea I was trying to get at what changes the class fundamentally and sounds like Bard epic is probably it, though I don't really understand why. Isn't its multiplier weaker than some instruments? Can you layer in instruments on top of it?

Cleric epic seems one of the weakest from this perspective. All it does is save a bit of time and mana after a wipe doesn't it?

Rogue also seems pretty weak to me. There are weapons out there with basically the same ratio as the Ragebringer and haste items with almost as much haste, so all in all it doesn't seem to add much.

[Cecily]

Rogue also seems pretty weak to me. There are weapons out there with basically the same ratio as the Ragebringer and haste items with almost as much haste, so all in all it doesn't seem to add much.

You don't understand rogues then. The answer is 40 atk if you were wondering why its so good.

[Cecily]

Cleric epic seems one of the weakest from this perspective. All it does is save a bit of time and mana after a wipe doesn't it?

If by a bit of time and mana you mean only 18,000 mana saved per 30 dead people, yeah it's not that great.

[zanderklocke]

Yea I was trying to get at what changes the class fundamentally and sounds like Bard epic is probably it, though I don't really understand why. Isn't its multiplier weaker than some instruments? Can you layer in instruments on top of it?


Many songs have a singing modifier that is not affected by an instrument. The bard epic improves all songs that are singing only by 180%. Look at the bard list of songs: http://wiki.project1999.com/Bard
Any song that lists "Singing" next to it can now be improved 180% which might make these songs more effective than other instrument modified songs. Therefore, the bard has to rethink what songs are best to twist now. For example, on raids that require only MR, it's better to play "Singing" songs and not equip the drum and do percussion resist songs anymore. Another example, by twisting some DS songs, bard epic can easily have their group DS on players be over 50 damage. That's super helpful to a tank.

Furthermore, the epic proc is group buff that is:
Spell haste 55%
Str +30
Atk + 30 (this is the winning one which is awesome for rogue dps groups)

Once the epic gets switched to the modifier working in offhand in Velious, bards will be able to equip all useful instruments (horn, lute, and drum) in the primary slot and the epic in the offhand slot to maximize instrument/singing modifiers on all songs. This will be nuts in terms of how overpowered songs will be able to be.

[Crawdad]

Yea I was trying to get at what changes the class fundamentally and sounds like Bard epic is probably it, though I don't really understand why. Isn't its multiplier weaker than some instruments? Can you layer in instruments on top of it?

Rogue also seems pretty weak to me. There are weapons out there with basically the same ratio as the Ragebringer and haste items with almost as much haste, so all in all it doesn't seem to add much.

Bard epic is important because its the only item until Luclin that modifies the Singing skill. It also acts as a weak (1.8) version of any instrument, but the singing is what matters.

Rogue epic will still be used far into Velious (I think its only sent to off-hand after NToV) because of its contribution to Dps.

Cleric epic seems one of the weakest from this perspective. All it does is save a bit of time and mana after a wipe doesn't it?

You're underselling it. There's a reason every guild wants every one of their clerics to be epic'd.

[-Catherin-]

Bard epic provides a modifier that covers all instruments at the same time. even though the modifier is weaker it allows you to use every type of song under the sun without wasting time swapping instruments in and out, creating an incredible cumulative effect.

This also allows you to melee while still getting a great bonus from your songs, which brings into play the procing of the bard epic which is unique in itself. its a group haste proc that also adds atk that stacks and you cant get anywhere else.

Also bard epic is the only thing in the game that also increases your singing mod. If you look at the songs listed under singing only you will see that a lot of them are some of the best songs in the game.

It does not completely eliminate the need to use other instruments sometimes but it greatly cuts down on how necessary they are and because of that the class becomes a lot easier and fun to play

[Ele]

Yea I was trying to get at what changes the class fundamentally and sounds like Bard epic is probably it, though I don't really understand why. Isn't its multiplier weaker than some instruments? Can you layer in instruments on top of it?

Cleric epic seems one of the weakest from this perspective. All it does is save a bit of time and mana after a wipe doesn't it?

Rogue also seems pretty weak to me. There are weapons out there with basically the same ratio as the Ragebringer and haste items with almost as much haste, so all in all it doesn't seem to add much.

Bard epic modifies Singing, which you can not replicate on any item. It also allows modification of any song without swapping instruments in exchange for slightly smaller boosts over the top end instruments. It does change the way bards approach numerous encounters and settings.

Cleric epic is basically a requirement of the class post 50, especially if you intend to raid at all. It isn't a little bit of time and mana, it is a ton of time and mana. It is the difference between a 45 minute recovery and a 5 minute recovery. Does it "change" the class? Not really, something they already do. Does it define them? Certainly.

Rogue epic is their strongest weapon in Kunark and provides easy 40% haste and +40 attack. The attack bonus doesn't get replicated (in near that amount) on any item in Velious or Kunark. Rogues are certainly defined by their epic in Kunark and it still has huge potential in Velious for a while.

[Loke]

to answer why bard epic, because a) singing mod doesnt exist outside of epic and b) allows you to mod all songs of different instrument types, while meleeing, without having to switch instruments. That 2nd one opens up a lot of possibilities considering the bard class is largely about doing as many things as possible in the limited time alloted to you with song duration. Certain things that you wouldnt have time to do due to switching or different song types immediately become feasible and effective.

[iruinedyourday]

Shaman drastically has the most class/game changing effect on it.

A bard doesnt swap insterments with its epic, and gets to hit things while it sings, ok.. but you're still providing the same group features as you are with instruments, just wtih more ease.

a cleric can rez more, sure.. but again its just taking what they usualy do, and makes it easier.

An epic shaman changes from a group centric buff/heal/utility party member.. to a solo, dps, killing machine.

I mean the # of things you can kill that you couldn't kill before, goes from 0 to 8+ at a time.. that's a drastic change. More drastic of a change of game-play than I can think any other epic provides.

[kaev]

Cleric epic seems one of the weakest from this perspective. All it does is save a bit of time and mana after a wipe doesn't it?


It saves quite a fair bit of time after a group wipe. When a raid wipes the huge amount of time saved by manaless rezzing can easily be the difference between "regroup and try again" & "go home". Clerics don't just have to rez after a wipe, and they don't have canni to jack their mana regen thru the roof while rebuffing everybody.






The game is still FashionQuest tho, flaming sword trumps all where it really counts: in the EC tunnel. Nobody looks better. The Paladin is the ultimate EQ poseur when he gets his epic.

[-Catherin-]

Shaman epic doesn't change how the class is played, but simply makes them more mana efficient because they have an extra way to do damage. looking at it that way, Torpor is more class defining than the epic is.

Bard epic literally changes how the class is played on a fundamental level, which was what the OP was asking. Other epics are more about making the classes a bit more powerful at what they already are able to do.

[iruinedyourday]

Shaman epic doesn't change how the class is played, but simply makes them more mana efficient because they have an extra way to do damage. looking at it that way, Torpor is more class defining than the epic is.

Bard epic literally changes how the class is played on a fundamental level, which was what the OP was asking. Other epics are more about making the classes a bit more powerful at what they already are able to do.

100% disagree. A shaman without an epic is draaaaaaaaaaaaaastically different than one with.

I mean seriously, you may be thinking of a raid shaman.. sure then you are the same with or without an epic.

But for the other 99% of the game, your playstyle will change 100%.

You will not solo sebilis for xp and loot without one, you wont solo the efreeti AND all the imps for xp.

you wont solo every LDC in solb without one, you wont kill everything on the city of mist 2nd floor.

Sure you can go to these places and use the same strategies that the epic uses to kill A MOB.. but you wont be doing it as an efficient strategy that would make it a viable rout for XP.

So this means youre doing something, and playing the class 100% different with than you would be doing without an epic.

To me this is the most drastic change in playstle of any class once an epic is obtained.. there is nothing that compares to this frequent of different gameplay in classic EQ.

A topor shaman is still going to have a bad time killing every imp in solB for xp without an epic, not that you would with topor cus you're obviously already 60 and dont need that xp anymore, but if you wanted to go head to head, the epic shaman with topor would decimate the non epic sham.

shaman hands down is the most class defining epic.

A shaman with an epic can handle any and all xp camps that a group of 6 holds down on eq, on its own.. and without an epic it wouldnt even come close to doing that.

[dafier]

What fundamentals does the Bard epic bring in Velious? Seriously, what's different from Kunark Epic Bard to Velious Epic Bard?

[-Catherin-]

What fundamentals does the Bard epic bring in Velious? Seriously, what's different from Kunark Epic Bard to Velious Epic Bard?

Question had nothing to do with velious so I don't see your point. and the same question could be asked of any class when you put it that way. But the answer, as with any other class... is none. Velious going live doesn't change how an epic works.

Although bard epic does get changed so it will work in offhand too which is going to be really nice.

[Loke]

Also, the shaman epic is really only useful in solo / leveling scenarios. On raids the effect is essentially useless and in a group situation you'd need to have stunningly bad dps for its long duration and low dps start to have any real impact.

Definitely a good epic, but far more situational than the bards.

[iruinedyourday]

Also, the shaman epic is really only useful in solo / leveling scenarios. On raids the effect is essentially useless and in a group situation you'd need to have stunningly bad dps for its long duration and low dps start to have any real impact.

Definitely a good epic, but far more situational than the bards.

The quesation isnt what epic changes RAIDING more than any other epic, it asks what is the most clsas defining epic.

99% of the game is not raiding, 100% of the gameplay is changed with an epic on a shaman. There for the shaman epic is the most drastic change to gameplay you will find in EQ hands down.

[-Catherin-]

The quesation isnt what epic changes RAIDING more than any other epic, it asks what is the most clsas defining epic.

99% of the game is not raiding, 100% of the gameplay is changed with an epic on a shaman. There for the shaman epic is the most drastic change to gameplay you will find in EQ hands down.

Class defining typically considers the full spectrum of what a class is capable of. So its natural that raiding and solo and grouping is all part of it.

[dafier]

What would you guys say is the most impactful epic in the game and why?
What do you guys think?

I think that was why I asked my question. I am not trying to be a smart ass.

People mentioned Bard epic having the most impact, and my question is why? What's the difference of the Bard epic now, in Kunark, compared to Velious, and why does it impact the game the most (making it the #1 choice answer for some people on this thread)?

[kaev]

Also, the shaman epic is really only useful in solo / leveling scenarios. On raids the effect is essentially useless and in a group situation you'd need to have stunningly bad dps for its long duration and low dps start to have any real impact.

Definitely a good epic, but far more situational than the bards.

That's not true really. In a group using root CC any DoT class boosts your kill rate by softening up the rooted mobs, and a manafree DoT with solid net damage is nice. The real reason is that so few epic shamans can be bothered to group in the first place. (I know if I had a shaman he'd become my goto solo toon the second he got his epic.)

[Crawdad]

The quesation isnt what epic changes RAIDING more than any other epic, it asks what is the most clsas defining epic.

99% of the game is not raiding, 100% of the gameplay is changed with an epic on a shaman. There for the shaman epic is the most drastic change to gameplay you will find in EQ hands down.

The gameplay isn't changed though, you're just more mana efficient. Shaman would still be root rotting 8+ mobs if they had the natural efficiency to do so. Plus, its efficient for soloing only; Epic vs Non-epic rogue is night vs day for soloing/grouping/raiding/tunnelquesting.

Bard is fundamentally changed by their epic.

Cleric's epic changes the game in groups and raids-- like someone else said, you go from wipe and scoot to wipe and another attempt.

[Ele]

I wish the thread starter would pick a question for us to answer:

Title: Class defining epic
Quest in OP: most impactful epic
Later in thread: which epic changes the class fundamentally

[-Catherin-]

Also in raiding scenarios your epic bards are always going to get the MT and melee DPS groups while the non-epic bards will be with the casters, since not having an epic doesn't change what they can bring to a caster group but an epic bard significantly impacts the melee and MT groups

Can't really think of another class where their role in a raid group literally hinges on having an epic or not.

[Ravager]

Druid for Spring and Autumn cleanups.

[iruinedyourday]

The gameplay isn't changed though, you're just more mana efficient. Shaman would still be root rotting 8+ mobs if they had the natural efficiency to do so. Plus, its efficient for soloing only; Epic vs Non-epic rogue is night vs day for soloing/grouping/raiding/tunnelquesting.

Bard is fundamentally changed in your options by their epic. Clerics epic changes the game in groups and raids--like someone else said, you go from wipe and scoot to wipe and another attempt.

Whoah you think being able to click rez instead of cast it, is more of a change than being able to rot 1 mob inefficiently to being able to handle any and all group exp camps, by yourself?

Name me one epic that allows you to go from an inefficient strategy into one that can easily solo any groupable content.

[zanderklocke]

If you have the sky horn, swap that in for epic during McVaxius cast for rogue or tank group for more DS and DPS. Mmm.

[zanderklocke]

Can we change this thread to most game changing item now?

<- Voting for puppet strings.

[dafier]

Also in raiding scenarios your epic bards are always going to get the MT and melee DPS groups while the non-epic bards will be with the casters, since not having an epic doesn't change what they can bring to a caster group but an epic bard significantly impacts and melee and MT group.

Can't really think of another class where their role in a raid group literally hinges on having an epic or not.

THAT makes sense to me. Thank you. Ya, I was innocently wondering what is the difference between a bard with an epic in Kunark compared to Velious, but I wasn't completely finished with my question.

This helps me understand the fundamental difference, better.

[-Catherin-]

If you have the sky horn, swap that in for epic during McVaxius cast for rogue or tank group for more DS and DPS. Mmm.

I was thinking specifically the psalm of heat and cold songs, which come with a stackable damage shield, that are singing mod only :)

Going to be pretty big in Velious where the MT having as much DS as possible will make a big impact on long drawn out fights.

[zanderklocke]

I was thinking specifically the psalm of heat and cold songs, which come with a stackable damage shield, that are singing mod only :)

Going to be pretty big in Velious where the MT having as much DS as possible will make a big impact on long drawn out fights.

Psalm with epic, blazing vambraces/singing steel bracer, and mxvaxius with sky horn. Yum yum.

[Crawdad]

Whoah you think being able to click rez instead of cast it, is more of a change than being able to rot 1 mob inefficiently to being able to handle any and all group exp camps, by yourself?

Name me one epic that allows you to go from an inefficient strategy into one that can easily solo any group able content.

I'd put Shaman near the top in the #4 position I posted earlier, next to Ranger's Swiftwind and Warrior's Blade of Strategy. No guild or group really cares if you have your Shaman epic. Clerics though.

[Ele]

Whoah you think being able to click rez instead of cast it, is more of a change than being able to rot 1 mob inefficiently to being able to handle any and all group exp camps, by yourself?

Name me one epic that allows you to go from an inefficient strategy into one that can easily solo any groupable content.

Soloing group content isn't 100% of the game.

[-Catherin-]

blazing vambs are nice in a smaller setting but in raids where we should always have access to a mage, or AT LEAST a druid, they will have much better DS for the tank :)

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

For raiding utility, cleric. For overall "class defining" - bard without question.

Just to expand - cleric epic has a ton of utility, but doesnt really change the way the class is played. Its a spell they already get, and while super useful, doesnt have nearly the impact on the class as the bard epic does. The cleric epic is really only game changing when youve got a pile of bodies to rez, where as on my bard everything i do is improved by having the epic to such am extent that it actually opens up new play style options that are unavailable to a non-epic bard.

Cant argue against the situational utility of the cleric epic, but in my mind the bard epic is definitely the most "class defining", as ambiguous as that phrase may be.

I think this is a crucial distinction in thinking about eq's epics. I know from an enchanter's perspective, it is why I was part of the protest on the effect once it was discovered (had 60 and VoG already when it was solved), and refused to get it, and will also never get it here on p99. If I have to tell you why a buff stick pisses off an enchanter, you do not understand the class. We wanted some kind of effect that impacted combat -- a better mem blur, an unresistable stun (with a high reuse time of course), or a slow to free up a combat slot.

But a manaless buff? A lot of us saw the writing on the wall when the epic got solved: They have run out of ideas about what to do with the enchanter class, and in fact want to unwind what our cc role is and shift us to buffers.

Velious then proved us right. Fuck the buff stick. Really.

Sadly, what should have been the epic won't ever be on p99. Notice what it is named, btw:

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/e/3/e36cbfc966fb1ac48b51c9a06ee222d0.png

[captnamazing]

the most class defining epic is the neckbeard's poopsock.

[iruinedyourday]

Soloing group content isn't 100% of the game.

To be fair that is true. But on blue, anything else, raiding included is only 0.001% of the game.

Its just a totally different play style, completely new avenues that were not available are now available...

soloing group content isnt 100% of the game, but things you can do with your shaman changes that much once you get an epic.

To me no other class 'changes' once the epic is obtained, some minor roll changes in a raid for bard sure, ill grant it that. But for a shaman the whole class changes once you get an epic, totally different class altogether with rather than without an epic.

Granted in sky, youre going to do the same things I know, but come on did you make your shaman to sit and buff people on raids? I dont think so.

Shaman, biggest change from epic, ergo most class defining epic.

[Cecily]

but come on did you make your shaman to sit and buff people on raids? I dont think so.

I think that's uh.. yes. Yes, that is why people make shamans. To buff people, yes.

[clellaen]

I think that's uh.. yes. Yes, that is why people make shamans. To buff people, yes.

Nope

[Varren]

Nope

Hey clellan, role red

[clellaen]

Hey clellan, role red

Nope.

[Varren]

Nope.

It'll toughen you up. You could finally get vengeance on all of us red players by killing us!

[clellaen]

My vengeance is watching your server slowly die from the inside out

[clellaen]

Did that sound bitter? I'm not bitter, you all saved me sooo much time in my life ;)

[mr_jon3s]

Mage epic is huge. You will always have it on you, best pet till planes of power, does insane dps, and it looks awesome. When the plane of hate revamp happens I think you will see a huge shift in the server with more mages being able to get epic.

[Varren]

Did that sound bitter? I'm not bitter, you all saved me sooo much time in my life ;)

I'm really glad thats true. How do you spend your time now?

[clellaen]

I'm really glad thats true. How do you spend your time now?

I like to spend my time improving the EverQuest community with gentlemen like yourself so that we can all have a great server (or two!) to play on

[nuuki]

Thank you all for the contributions. Lots of gems in this thread, which is what I was ultimately hoping for.

And sorry for the confusion. I should have worded things a little better, but my original thought was around what drastically and fundamentally alters a class from all perspectives and isn't just a "nice to have" essentially.

Thank you again! :)

[citizen1080]

Bard doesn't get replaced till...sometime after PoP? Pretty sure that makes it a winner.

[Crawdad]

Bard doesn't get replaced till...sometime after PoP? Pretty sure that makes it a winner.

Some of the Bard elemental plate from PoP (Vambraces (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=17831), Chest (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=17791), Boots (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=17830)) match epic instrument mods. They already have a replacement for the Epic singing mod in Shadowsong Cloak (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=8979)... and if you're lucky eventually a Songblade of the Eternal (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=21697).

[Varren]

I like to spend my time improving the EverQuest community with gentlemen like yourself so that we can all have a great server (or two!) to play on
Me too. Stop trashing red or ill come over there and... and... undercut your tunnel sale!

[wycca]

Epic List (each category eliminates previous) -
Best Epic for Entire Server - Cleric
Best Epic for Entire Guild - Bard
Best Epic for Individual Class - Magician
Best Epic for You to Poop On - Necromancer

[PDX0621]

Mage epic is huge. You will always have it on you, best pet till planes of power, does insane dps, and it looks awesome. When the plane of hate revamp happens I think you will see a huge shift in the server with more mages being able to get epic.

What does it look like?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

...Best Epic for Entire Server - Cleric....


lol so true.

[Cecily]

Think about Everquest without rogue epics for a minute.

[fastboy21]

another way of doing it would be to think about which classes (on live) were able to stop equipping their epics first and which weren't even carried around in bags.

there were some that were out by late kunark and early velious. others that lasted all the way to plane of time or beyond.

my two most "class defining" were the bard and the wizard. both are game changers in terms of play style. both looked hella cool. bard would equip his until plane of time, wizard would carry his until plane of time; outliving the usefulness of many other epics.

i'm partial though; I played bard and wizard on live.

[Cecily]

Maybe that's a question of poor itemization. Some epics are better than others. Some are bad. Any given epic for a specific class is the best epic that class will get.
This debate is silly.

[Samoht]

But on blue, anything else, raiding included is only 0.001% of the game.

i'm pretty sure you made this statistic up only to justify your point of view. if you're a level 60 and not interested in alts, sometimes you might only log in for bat phones making raiding more than 99% of your game (the other 1% is reserved for ports to get to raids).

my two most "class defining" were the bard and the wizard..

haha. nope. wizard epic is just barely above necro on the rankings best to worst.

[fastboy21]

I wasn't trying to win a debate...its just chatting. So edgy p

You're right that itemization in future expansions (unfairly) cut the life or usefullness of the certain epics out early...but the fact is that bards were still holding on to their epics years after most classes had put them into bags or bank slots. Top gear PoP bards, when you picture them, are still holding that singing short sword (until PoP drop from inny)...so you associate the item with bards more because they had it for much longer than most classes in their hands.

Also, the bard epic happens to just look very very cool =P

As for my love of the wizard epic, I already said that I'm very partial because I played a wiz on live and that was my first epic ever. First love, etc.

[Cecily]

I'm not saying you are. Just other people aren't agreeing with my bias towards rogue epic, which is the best epic, and therefore thread is wrong and silly.

[Samoht]

1. Bard - no other epic is as class changing or offers as much diversity as the bard epic moving bards from mana batteries to front line fighters
2. Cleric - streamlines one of the class defining features and makes it manaless
3. Rogue - high backstabs, check, haste, check, AP buff, check
4. Ranger - like a rogue, without backstabs
5. Magician - revolutionary pet, but pets are only a percentage of what mages do considering nukes, rods, and coth
6. Warrior - one of the best taunt procs in game OR one of the best 2h DPS weapons in game. neat gimmick.
7. Paladin - taunt proc isn't class defining, but it's good. have stuns from other sources.
8. Monk - magic fists that you can click for haste when no other haste is available. that's cool.
9. Druid - a dot click for soloing with a snare component
10. Shaman - a dot click for soloing with no snare
11. Enchanter - they have the opposite problem of the cleric. haste is nice, but VoG has better stats and WR is faster. the spell also has stacking problems, but you will still cast it a lot on raids
12. Wizard - the mana regen and shield are nice, but are both kind of insignificant in combat
13. ShadowKnight - probably most useful for its 2h bash, but then only really benefits races without slam
14. Necromancer - it's a free snare/dot, but they already get snare/dots and it does not stack with root

[Daldaen]

another way of doing it would be to think about which classes (on live) were able to stop equipping their epics first and which weren't even carried around in bags.

there were some that were out by late kunark and early velious. others that lasted all the way to plane of time or beyond.

my two most "class defining" were the bard and the wizard. both are game changers in terms of play style. both looked hella cool. bard would equip his until plane of time, wizard would carry his until plane of time; outliving the usefulness of many other epics.

i'm partial though; I played bard and wizard on live.

Good bards dumped theirs in PoWater! That Hydrotha Mask was the shit.

And Cleric epic is best. After a Cazic Thule run I rezzed probably 30 people. The amount of time it takes a cleric to med for 30 rezzes is over an hour and a half. The amount of time the cleric epic saves is huge.

[wycca]

Wiz epic is sorta lackluster. If you're looking at items as hard to get as an epic, you also have to consider every other option.

The wiz epic replicates the effect (plus a minor boost) of the spell manaskin for 0 mana and 0 reagents. That's not nothing, but it's also not a ton.

You can't really look at the clicky as a boost to mana regen (ie assuming you combine it with a mana stone or manna robe). It's more dps and less work clicking to just pickup a Rend robe, a Hoshkar staff, or a Velk robe.

As a free rune on AE fights - it does have some minor use. It's worthless for the most part in Kunark because most raid mobs die before it eats through your manaskin+manaskin combo. In velious, it has some more use. A well adjusted wizard can likely mana-dump on an AE mob fast enough to not take significant damage from any AE's before ducking behind a wall. It's sole major use is re-runing during breaks hiding behind a wall. That isn't horrid, but hey, diamond wands rot also, so it's not quite as good as it could be.

As far as stats, the wiz epic disappoints. It's good for pure mana fights, but not game-changing. If the mob has a MR, PR, or FR/CR AE, then you're going to instead be using a phinny staff or a staff of gabstik. In fact, the wiz epic is the only epic, where the items you turnin, add up to better stats than the final epic.

TL:DR - The wiz epic is nice, but it's hardly game changing. A mana-free rune is useful, but is not class defining or game changing. There's a reason it's ~#3 on my Kunark wish list behind 2 other clickies.


Also, just wanted to put out that Rangers are probably the most lucky melee class in terms of epic. They get the major advantages of the rogue epic in the offhand, in the mainhand they get another great weapon with a slow/agro proc. Additionally, they get the effect of the monk epic in a friggin PoSky cloak. It's a great raid epic for them and a phenominal solo epic.

[Erydan Ouragan]

I'm not saying you are. Just other people aren't agreeing with my bias towards rogue epic, which is the best epic, and therefore thread is wrong and silly.

I agree, rogue epic is the most defining epic, it's not even a contest.

Except a few other minor things (like picklock or CRs), rogues only do one thing and have a single purpose. Damage. Their epic have the most impact because it directly increases the damage they do, which, coincidentally, is pretty much the only thing they're doing.

Other classes have workarounds and other skills/spells, meaning their epic won't create a strong impact like it does for rogues.

Which leads to me disagreeing with most people in this thread gushing about the bard epic, when in reality, while it's nice... It's definitely not *that* amazing.

The most common argument is the singing mod. It's true that it's the only item in the game that modifies singing. But does it really matter? In the grand scheme of things, not really, no.

So what does increased singing modifier gives to a bard. Well, it gives you slightly better resists and DS from psalms, a better single-target snare/AC/AGI debuff with the level 51 song and a bit more mana per cast with the level 32 song. Haste and slow values on songs are never modified, whether from the voice modifier on the epic or by any instruments. Is it good? Yep, no doubt. Game-changing? Not even close.

The epic proc is surely very nice. 55% haste is better than what you can provide with songs, albeit still under what a chanter will give to melee in a raid setting. So unless you're in a melee-heavy group without a chanter, the proc basically becomes a +30STR/ATK for the melee group. Is it nice? Yes, of course. Does it give you whiter teeth and a bigger penis? Nope.

The epic also gives bard the luxury to not switch instruments during combat, or to play certain songs that require an instrument. You also give slightly better stats from songs that have stats associated to them due to the all-around 18 mod given by the epic, while you melee. Is it desirable? Of course. Is it worth selling your wife and child for it? I don't think so.

Now, when i read things like:

Bard epic is really the only epic I can think of that fundamentally changes how the actual class operates and is played. Depends what your definition of class defining is but to me that covers it.

I just shake my head. A bard with, or without epic operates and is played the exact same way. You still mez and charm for CC, you still buff the melee in combat and help casters regen mana. You still give resists to your group in a raid.

Sure, you get some nice bonuses and an awesome proc (if there's no enchanter around), but that's it. Being able to give +40 MR or 10 more points on a damage shield isn't game-changing in any way whatsoever. At the very best, you will be able to pump more mana in the longer velious fights in the caster group, which might be noticeable to them after puretone fades.

The raving comments in this thread about the bard epic leads me to think that people are affected by the sunken cost fallacy, which makes you believe something is better because you have invested a lot in it. I had my epic during PoP, i raided and grouped with it. It is certainly nice and if someone magically offered me a bard epic MQ for free, i'd absolutely take it.

But "fundamentally changes the way the class operates as a whole". Not even close.

[Samoht]

And Cleric epic is best. After a Cazic Thule run I rezzed probably 30 people. The amount of time it takes a cleric to med for 30 rezzes is over an hour and a half. The amount of time the cleric epic saves is huge.

that's not how raid recovery works, though. without the epic, you would focus on rezzing other clerics first and then necros, mages, and enchanters to contribute to your rezzers so that it wouldn't be one single cleric rezzing the entire raid force. the epic truly only helps on the first few clicks, after that the difference is going to be marginal.

A bard with, or without epic operates and is played the exact same way.

We'll agree to disagree.

[Erydan Ouragan]

1. Bard - no other epic is as class changing or offers as much diversity as the bard epic moving bards from mana batteries to front line fighters


That is just ridiculous.

A bard should always do what's best for the group/raid. If you're in the melee group, you buff the melee. If you're in the tank group providing DS, you should provide the best DS available (which means switching your epic for a brass instrument when applying Mcvaxius). If you're in the caster group, you pump mana.

In a normal group setting, in special cases like a melee-heavy group without a chanter around, then yes, you want to melee to keep the epic proc buff at all times.

But if the caster group is struggling for mana while you're meleeing on the account that you have your epic, then you're playing badly.

[Erydan Ouragan]

We'll agree to disagree.

Well then, by all means, tell me what is so different in the way an epic vs a non-epic bard is played.

[Samoht]

tell me what is so different in the way an epic vs a non-epic bard is played.

well first of all, bard is a melee hybrid. if a bard is forced to use instrument for mods 100% of the time, he would be doing negligible damage with his autos from an empty hand. with epic, he only does slightly more than negligible damage, but at least there's a weapon in that hand now. if that's not a different way to play, i don't know what is.

[fastboy21]

If you are max'ing there is no other item in the entire game until late PoP that adds voice mod. For a class that is basically not gear dependent it is an extremely important item to have. If you are a guild bard (raiding) then the ones with epic are the more usefull; it doesn't matter how good you are, if you don't have epic you'll always play second fiddle (see what I did there?) to the ones that do for tank grps, etc.

It doesn't change how you play in the sense that you are memming different songs or twisting any differently.

It does make a big difference in having an instrument mod on all the time AND being able to melee. But its still just twisting and hitting auto attack; that's not what he meant by game changing though imo.

[Daldaen]

that's not how raid recovery works, though. without the epic, you would focus on rezzing other clerics first and then necros, mages, and enchanters to contribute to your rezzers so that it wouldn't be one single cleric rezzing the entire raid force. the epic truly only helps on the first few clicks, after that the difference is going to be marginal.



We'll agree to disagree.

Nope nope nope.

I understand you could cleric Rez some clerics then some mana batteries. But EVERY wipe, if you have a raid force of 50 players, Rezzing all of them costs 50*700*0.9=31500 Mana. Without buffs that's 1575 Med ticks. Over 2.5 hours of medding. That can be split by multiple clerics on the raid, and that can be accelerated with enchanters, bards and Necromancers. But that is still a huge amount of unnecessary downtime. Cleric epics give you more attempts per night and more clears completed instead of being called halfway through because they get people up faster with no mana burned.

Bard epic is good. It's addition to singing equates to 56 extra resist for an entire group. That's like adding a Tranix Crown, Earring of Essence, and 2 Jacinth Rings worth of resists to everyone in the group. Just because of that bard epic.

So it will save you mana in-fights from healing and increase DPS because people live longer.

Also some people mentioned it earlier - No bard mana songs are modifiable. The cantata modifies the HP given, the mana however cannot be increased. If it's bugged on this server and is getting modified, I will endeavor to Nerf this with all my power, because that is not classic.

But in the long run, a cleric epic will save more time and end up getting you more loot.

If only one class epic were allowed to resist. From a raider and grouper standpoint, cleric epic would be winner hands down.

[nuuki]

1. Bard - no other epic is as class changing or offers as much diversity as the bard epic moving bards from mana batteries to front line fighters
2. Cleric - streamlines one of the class defining features and makes it manaless
3. Rogue - high backstabs, check, haste, check, AP buff, check
4. Ranger - like a rogue, without backstabs
5. Magician - revolutionary pet, but pets are only a percentage of what mages do considering nukes, rods, and coth
6. Warrior - one of the best taunt procs in game OR one of the best 2h DPS weapons in game. neat gimmick.
7. Paladin - taunt proc isn't class defining, but it's good. have stuns from other sources.
8. Monk - magic fists that you can click for haste when no other haste is available. that's cool.
9. Druid - a dot click for soloing with a snare component
10. Shaman - a dot click for soloing with no snare
11. Enchanter - they have the opposite problem of the cleric. haste is nice, but VoG has better stats and WR is faster. the spell also has stacking problems, but you will still cast it a lot on raids
12. Wizard - the mana regen and shield are nice, but are both kind of insignificant in combat
13. ShadowKnight - probably most useful for its 2h bash, but then only really benefits races without slam
14. Necromancer - it's a free snare/dot, but they already get snare/dots and it does not stack with root

Thank you sir this is awesome

[Erydan Ouragan]

well first of all, bard is a melee hybrid. if a bard is forced to use instrument for mods 100% of the time, he would be doing negligible damage with his autos from an empty hand. with epic, he only does slightly more than negligible damage, but at least there's a weapon in that hand now. if that's not a different way to play, i don't know what is.

That is a common way of thinking, and terribly wrong.

Bard melee damage is negligible, even with the epic. With a dual wield cap of 210 and no double attack, their damage is laughable at best. Paladins/SKs have a double attack cap of 235 and no DW.

This means, mathematically, with equal gear/buffs, paladins/SK will out-melee a bard due to the fact that they will have more double attack checks than bards will have dual wield checks.

So, assuming a bard is in a melee group in a raid setting, he shouldn't be meleeing at all. He should stand close to the melees in his group and switch instruments appropriate to the songs he's playing in order to provide the maximum buffing effects.

Playing McVaxius Berzerker Crescendo with a McVaxius Horn of War (23) will net more STR/ATK than played with the epic (18). Multiply that STR/ATK gain in a group full of rogues and monks, that will net more damage as a whole than the bard would be able to do by himself.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Bard epic is good. It's addition to singing equates to 56 extra resist for an entire group. That's like adding a Tranix Crown, Earring of Essence, and 2 Jacinth Rings worth of resists to everyone in the group. Just because of that bard epic.

So it will save you mana in-fights from healing and increase DPS because people live longer.

Also some people mentioned it earlier - No bard mana songs are modifiable. The cantata modifies the HP given, the mana however cannot be increased. If it's bugged on this server and is getting modified, I will endeavor to Nerf this with all my power, because that is not classic.


I agree that +56 extra resist is nice, but if you really wanted to boost resists, you'd be playing elemental/purifying rhythms with a drum for even more resists!

The level 32 mana song is modified by the voice modifier on the epic, though. In luclin, bards get Amplification at level 30, which is a self-buff that increases singing and works with that song. They also get Voice of the Serpent, which is a range clicky item that gives Resonance, a +singing buff. It drops from a named in Ssra :(

Cantata of soothing is a string-based song and only the hp regen gets modified by having a lute equipped. That's not a bug, because if the mana regen component was able to be modified, it would be absurdly overpowered.

[falkun]

Everyone saying the rogue epic is more class defining than the bard epic is trolling. The ATK from the rogue epic is 10 better than the bard's, but the bard supplies that 30 ATK to the entire group. Rogues have other items they could use for the haste, and BIS DPS weapons do not include the rogue epic even in Kunark, let alone Velious. Bards had their epic equipped essentially 100% of the time from Kunark through the PoP EPs.

Wycca's list for cleric, bard, and mage epics is accurate.

[fastboy21]

That is a common way of thinking, and terribly wrong.

Bard melee damage is negligible, even with the epic. With a dual wield cap of 210 and no double attack, their damage is laughable at best. Paladins/SKs have a double attack cap of 235 and no DW.

This means, mathematically, with equal gear/buffs, paladins/SK will out-melee a bard due to the fact that they will have more double attack checks than bards will have dual wield checks.

So, assuming a bard is in a melee group in a raid setting, he shouldn't be meleeing at all. He should stand close to the melees in his group and switch instruments appropriate to the songs he's playing in order to provide the maximum buffing effects.

Playing McVaxius Berzerker Crescendo with a McVaxius Horn of War (23) will net more STR/ATK than played with the epic (18). Multiply that STR/ATK gain in a group full of rogues and monks, that will net more damage as a whole than the bard would be able to do by himself.

This is very true. The only problem is that for some songs the **only** instrument (voice mod) is the epic. It so happens that some of those voice mod songs are critical for bards. You are certainly right that some important songs aren't voice (drum for resists, horn for attk and ds, lute for hp regen, etc.).

[Erydan Ouragan]

This is very true. The only problem is that for some songs the **only** instrument (voice mod) is the epic. It so happens that some of those voice mod songs are critical for bards. You are certainly right that some important songs aren't voice (drum for resists, horn for attk and ds, lute for hp regen, etc.).

Some voice songs are critical for bard? Which ones? :confused:

The only singing songs that get increased values are the 51 snare+AC/AGI debuff, the 32 mana song and psalms. Haste and slow are never modified.

Let's not take the 51 song into account. So it's about the mana regen increase and the resists/DS from psalms?

I agree it's nice, but certainly not "critical". Maybe if you're on mana-pumping duty in a caster or cleric group during a long fight in velious, you'd want your epic, yeah.

[koros]

Rogue epic can be banked permanently with Velious drops. It's not class defining for anything more than making the class "good", pretty easily.

[Samoht]

That is a common way of thinking, and terribly wrong.

Bard melee damage is negligible, even with the epic. With a dual wield cap of 210 and no double attack, their damage is laughable at best. Paladins/SKs have a double attack cap of 235 and no DW.

i don't understand what your point is here. i said that the damage was negligible. you said the damage was negligible. was i wrong or was i wrong?

the question asked that i was answering asked what was DIFFERENT between having an epic and not. equipping weapons for DW is clearly a different way to play to meleeing with an open fist because you have a lute or horn offhand. the damage is still pretty much negligible, but it's definitely different.

raiding bards basically go from weaponless casters twisting songs on raid to a melee class twisting songs on raids. and that's how it's different.

he shouldn't be meleeing at all.

wow. wrong. so wrong.

[zanderklocke]

I agree that +56 extra resist is nice, but if you really wanted to boost resists, you'd be playing elemental/purifying rhythms with a drum for even more resists!

This depends...if it is a purely a one type of resist fight, the epic will always be better than the drum.

You are correct when it is a fight that necessitates two types of resists.

[zanderklocke]

Can BDA get Deajay his epic already?

There is no bard on this server more deserving of an epic than Deajay.

[Erydan Ouragan]

i don't understand what your point is here. i said that the damage was negligible. you said the damage was negligible. was i wrong or was i wrong?

the question asked that i was answering asked what was DIFFERENT between having an epic and not. equipping weapons for DW is clearly a different way to play to meleeing with an open fist because you have a lute or horn offhand. the damage is still pretty much negligible, but it's definitely different.

raiding bards basically go from weaponless casters twisting songs on raid to a melee class twisting songs on raids. and that's how it's different.



wow. wrong. so wrong.

If both you and i state that melee damage is negligible, whether you have your epic or not, then why bother with melee (other than applying/refreshing the epic proc) when you can provide better stats by switching instruments, which will net a higher damage increase than if you were meleeing in the first place?

This depends...if it is a purely a one type of resist fight, the epic will always be better than the drum.

Fair enough. Thanks Zan, i don't remember the values with the epic equipped, that was a long time ago and i was using psalm of veeshan anyways :P

[Samoht]

applying/refreshing the epic proc

done~

[Daldaen]

The only reason rogue epic is class defining is because you can buy one at level 1 and it changes the class having access to your epic at level 1.

Praise MQ sellers and twinks!

[PDX0621]

What does it look like?

Still waiting, still curious.

3. Rogue - high backstabs, check, haste, check, AP buff, check

According to wiki, the effect is worn? Is there a min level on this, or would it apply while worn to a level 1 for example?

[Rararboker]

lvl 1

[Erydan Ouragan]

done~

You're aware that the proc lasts for 2m30s right?

Melee until it procs (and it procs a lot) then switch to instruments to provide the best buffs possible.

[Samoht]

The only reason rogue epic is class defining is because you can buy one at level 1 and it changes the class having access to your epic at level 1.

Praise MQ sellers and twinks!

and not because it's one of the only 15 damage (or higher) piercing weapons available for rogues in the game!

[Daldaen]

Efreeti War Spear is 15!

[Samoht]

Efreeti War Spear is 15!

too rare. and slower than RB.

Gunthak Harpoon too clunky. and slower than RB.

the other two are actually better than RB but are velious raid drops.

[-Catherin-]

I agree that +56 extra resist is nice, but if you really wanted to boost resists, you'd be playing elemental/purifying rhythms with a drum for even more resists!



The rule here to remember is that guardian rhythms (percussion) will stack with any one of the other rhythm songs or any one of the other psalms (singing only). with only drums there is no point in using the psalms as they wont be modified

Drums alone let you add any two resists plus magic by 83 plus magic by an additional 83 using guardian rhythms. the combinations are:

83CR/83FR/166MR
83DR/83PR/166MR
153MR

The problem here is that i dont know of any targets that use two different elemental type AEs. its always one elemental type or one elemental type plus magic (fear usually). so at least one of those resists in any of the combinations is not serving a purpose unless you are doing something like fighting two different element dragons at the same exact time.



The epic allows you a lot more freedom to tailor your resists targetting the specific situation when used along with the drums. Use the epic for the Psalm songs and the drums for the Rhythms. The combinations are:

125CR/83MR
125FR/83MR
125DR/83MR
125PR/83MR
208MR

Now you can really boost a second resist depending on what the target is and get groups to 255 in both needed resists a lot easier. MR is pretty easy to max with GMR and modest gear and 83 from bard song. its usually getting whatever second needed resist to max at the same time where it gets tricky. Epic makes this much more realistic.

And on targets where only one resist is necessary, drums do not even come close to epic in buffing any single resist



So no, drums are not the answer for the best resists. They reach their full potential when paired with the epic

These figures were used with a level 60 bard with an epic and a selos drum

And this is only addressing what the epic does for the resist lines

[iruinedyourday]

This thread is definitely wrong and silly, Cecily.

Ok guys here, if you change the shaman epic to provide a slow instead of what it does now, you'd see 100% less shamans than you do now.

Ergo the class is defined by its epic.

[citizen1080]

This thread is definitely wrong and silly, Cecily.

Ok guys here, if you change the shaman epic to provide a slow instead of what it does now, you'd see 100% less shamans than you do now.

Ergo the class is defined by its epic.

uh...

[Samoht]

uh...

yeah, i have no idea what he's talking about or where he's going with this. there's a class that can already solo without their epic, and their epic allows them to solo slightly more efficiently after level 50, and that alone makes it more class defining than other epics.

i think that deserves a solid 10th out of 14 on my list. if the only requirement is that it lets you solo easier the druid epic alone beats the shaman epic, lol.

[Loke]

DPS is never negligible when raiding. In a group, maybe, especially if it detracts from doing other things, but for a bard on a raid, the 20-25 dps you can get from melee still counts towards the total damage to the mob. 25 dps is 1500 damage a minute. That is comparable to pally dps. In fact, I used to routinely rate my dps on raids based on whether or not i out dps'd corova (a low bar, i know, but i needed a metric of some sort).

Additionally, the 30 atk from epic, plus the 25 from modded mcvaxius is 55 to the entire group, which is super significant. Plus higher DS, resists, and doing melee dps.... it is an aggregate effect. You can just single out one thing that improves with the bard epic, because bards arent a class that is about doing one thing well. Bards do everything okay, and their epic gives them more options to do almost everything better. You cant just do a point to point comparison because you have to factor in everything. Sure, drums might give you more resist overall, but to get that yourr sacrificing MR from psalm (most important resist by far), atk from mcvaxius, and 25ish dps. For you econ majors out there, it is all about opportunity cost, and epic completely changes the landscape of your next best option.

Also, try fear kiting without epic, that alone highlights the type of playstyles that epic opens up. I can chain fear, snare and stack dots, all while meleeing, which would be basically impossible without epic. Given that is a minor utility with limited uses, but just one example of how bard epic opens up new options.

[Samoht]

Bards do everything okay, and their epic gives them more options to do almost everything better.

and this my friend is why it's the #1 class defining epic

[-Catherin-]

and this my friend is why it's the #1 class defining epic

Style points too, since bards are all about style :p

http://i.imgur.com/pAyOaiB.jpg

[kenzar]

9. Druid - a dot click for soloing with a snare component

14. Necromancer - it's a free snare/dot, but they already get snare/dots and it does not stack with root

Druid epic is the most useless atm. It's snare component makes it mutually exclusive with root. Ensuring that a druid will never get more than 66% of the dot's damage without another person keeping the npc still/fearing. A Necro can at least fear after using their snare/dot epic and get 100% dmg without another player being present. Now after velious root/snare stacking changes, that's a different story. But until then, the druid epic is the biggest piece of garbage.

[koros]

too rare. and slower than RB.

Gunthak Harpoon too clunky. and slower than RB.

the other two are actually better than RB but are velious raid drops.

Who the hell cares if it's 15 damage? BS is only a portion of their damage, so there are better main hand, offhand, and mainhand/offhand combos in terms of raw dps (read: what rogues care about). It's not class defining

[Vorkon]

While you could probably make a case for epics on an individual scale, it makes more sense to do a tierlist type thing, where Cleric/Bard/Rogue are the top 3 regardless of order.

I always felt that the effort that went into the Warrior Epic was overwhelming for what you got, due to the live timeline of expansion releases, It felt that 3-4 months into Velious, I had replaced mine with something else, Primals/Kierzens Flame/Blade of carnage/ntov 2handers. I still used the Blade of Strat for a while (proc), but this too was eventually banked. I felt that some of the other classes epics had a far greater shelf/usefulness timeline.

[iruinedyourday]

yeah, i have no idea what he's talking about or where he's going with this. there's a class that can already solo without their epic, and their epic allows them to solo slightly more efficiently after level 50, and that alone makes it more class defining than other epics.

i think that deserves a solid 10th out of 14 on my list. if the only requirement is that it lets you solo easier the druid epic alone beats the shaman epic, lol.

disagree. A shaman simply cannot do what he can with his epic.

however some people only think about lvl 60 best in slot as the only factor that matters about anything.. so without a doubt a lvl 60 shaman with bis gear doesnt even need an epic anymore.

But leveling a shaman with an epic vs leveling a shama without an epic is as different as leveling a shaman vs leveling a mage or some other class.. so to me that is class defining because it drastically changes what you do with the class.

but whatever ive never played a bard with an epic.

I just disagree with yall and thats it

[Samoht]

disagree. A shaman simply cannot do what he can with his epic.

wait, shaman epic is a raid buff now?

But leveling a shaman with an epic vs leveling a shama without an epic is as different as leveling a shaman vs leveling a mage

no not really considering levelling a mage with epic pet would probably be more sweet than levelling a shaman with epic dot

[Guzum]

I think people tend to forget that Mage epic is a spell. You can die and summon a new epic to help with a CR. No other class can let their corpse rot without worrying about losing your pixels.

[citizen1080]

Anyone who has played a bard pre and post epic can tell you that its a whole new class after you get your epic. It is amazing. At one time or another I have played every class with and without epic..and bard epic is hands down the biggest game changer.

Does this mean i don't value my shamans epic? Shit no...its great for solo, meh for groups, crap for raids...but shaman is a great solo class so it is still a great epic.

But bard epic actually changes how you play. Shaman epic just gives you an extra free dot.

[Daldaen]

I will say once the patch allows offhand epic mod and Drum of the Beasts is available. Primary Drum + Secondary Epic. And Primary Silverwing Lute + Secondary Epic become the baller combinations of the day.

[Kileras]

i started a bard because i always wanted the epic. did so before i realized ill never be able to get it because of trak drop and not being able to get in a hardcore guild because of playtime. bummersalad. time to start saving for that MQ.

[Cecily]

Rogues won't be banking their Ragebringers in Velious until they get a Primal Velium Warspear, Massive Heartwood Thorn, and Claws of Lightning or equivalent offhand. Even then the damage might be close. 40 worn ATK, aka Vengeance VIII, is pretty huge. From what I recall, it was 1500 ATK (including avatar), 41% haste, and two post epics to see a benefit from swapping out epic. I'm not entirely sure rogues can hit that point yet.

AoB x3, CoP, Avatar. Perhaps. But the vast, vast majority of rogues will never get rid of their epic.

[Freakish]

Mage epic saves you thousands of malachites. That is just...too amazing.

[koros]

Rogues won't be banking their Ragebringers in Velious until they get a Primal Velium Warspear, Massive Heartwood Thorn, and Claws of Lightning or equivalent offhand. Even then the damage might be close. 40 worn ATK, aka Vengeance VIII, is pretty huge. From what I recall, it was 1500 ATK (including avatar), 41% haste, and two post epics to see a benefit from swapping out epic. I'm not entirely sure rogues can hit that point yet.

AoB x3, CoP, Avatar. Perhaps. But the vast, vast majority of rogues will never get rid of their epic.

I had a rogue with all those weapons in this exact era, and I parsed for dozens of hours. You don't need need a MHT to make epic bankable. Primal + CoL does, Vyemm + CoL does, etc. Few other combos as well.

[-Catherin-]

I will say once the patch allows offhand epic mod and Drum of the Beasts is available. Primary Drum + Secondary Epic. And Primary Silverwing Lute + Secondary Epic become the baller combinations of the day.

Its going to be crazy awesome. Denon's Horn of Disaster from sky is also primary and can be held with epic in offhand. That covers all of them. Other than wind which is also available already but serves no useful purpose.

[Uuruk]

My class defining epic is my autofire program.

[Waedawen]

Druid Epic right now (and probably later) is by far the most useless epic. It's either a really cool Stat Sword, or a really cool Stat Sword with a pathetic DoT.

Magician Epic is CRIMINALLY underrated for how powerful the pet is and the options it opens up for the player. The thing is seriously, seriously awesome. It's stronger than 90% of the player base, for Christ's sake.

Bard and Cleric epics are tied for how beneficial and useful they are over all. The time/energy/difficulty benefits of each are simply uncalculable and unfathomable. Imagine *not* having clicky res.

But as far as Class Defining? I'd have to say the Warrior epics. I don't know how to explain it, but there is a distinct difference between a Warrior with light sabers and a Warrior without them.

[iruinedyourday]

no not really considering levelling a mage with epic pet would probably be more sweet than levelling a shaman with epic dot

I don't know what you mean about the raid buff jab. But It's true a Mage would prob be able to solo as well as a shaman if he had an epic and would essentially change the way the Mage is played too I concede that.

The shaman being able to output as much mana free dps as he's able to with an epic makes it more than just 'another' dot.. Or even more than just a free dot.

They simply wouldn't be the solo master class they are with out the epic, period.

But like I said I don't agree and that's just that, I think the shaman epic is more class defining than bard or cleric.

[Gotze]

I don't know what you mean about the raid buff jab. But It's true a Mage would prob be able to solo as well as a shaman if he had an epic and would essentially change the way the Mage is played too I concede that.

The shaman being able to output as much mana free dps as he's able to with an epic makes it more than just 'another' dot.. Or even more than just a free dot.

They simply wouldn't be the solo master class they are with out the epic, period.

But like I said I don't agree and that's just that, I think the shaman epic is more class defining than bard or cleric.

agreed, magician epic is INSANE but your options to do raw soloing dont really go up, you just become a more faster and efficient soloer, such as seafuries, droga, etc

[Cecily]

Druid Epic right now (and probably later) is by far the most useless epic. It's either a really cool Stat Sword, or a really cool Stat Sword with a pathetic DoT.

I agree that it's bad now, but it'll open much better soloing options for druids with snare/root stacking. It's 3 mins of 55 dmg a tick. Not much, but coupled with ES arms or any of the quest wrists you can add another 36 a tick to that. Suddenly, we're doing 91 damage a tick for only 75 mana spent on the root. That's actually really good. 910 damage a minute, if you're patient, and can spend another 525 mana to add an additional 202 damage. 293 damage a tick for 600 mana spent is pretty good, I think.

[khanable]

But as far as Class Defining? I'd have to say the Warrior epics. I don't know how to explain it, but there is a distinct difference between a Warrior with light sabers and a Warrior without them.

Disagree, warrior epics are pretty meh in the grand scheme of things. Can tank better (that is, generate more hate) with two VP weapons.

They're colorful stat-sticks with a good ratio (slow, however) and one decent aggro proc.

[Nibblewitz]

Token wizard here.

The Staff of the Four is fairly game changing. In raid and group situations, I usually flux mobs and park them with root. Having a free 800 point rune makes this extremely efficient.

[Decad]

Cleric, Bard, Wizard in that order.

[citizen1080]

Token wizard here.

The Staff of the Four is fairly game changing. In raid and group situations, I usually flux mobs and park them with root. Having a free 800 point rune makes this extremely efficient.

i will agree that wizard is game changing on red

[Waedawen]

druids with snare/root stacking. It's 3 mins of 55 dmg a tick. Not much, but coupled with ES arms or any of the quest wrists you can add another 36 a tick to that. Suddenly, we're doing 91 damage a tick for only 75 mana spent on the root. That's actually really good..

This is absolutely true, all of it. It's goin' be gud, for sure, it's just that I, personally simply hate the fact that Summoning mobs are (mostly) the only mobs that drop good stuff.

Disagree, warrior epics are pretty meh in the grand scheme of things. They're colorful stat-sticks with a good ratio (slow, however) and one decent aggro proc.

Well duh, yeah. There are better weapons. But there aren't any weapons that quite 'appear' the same, is my angle here.

[Doors]

Depends on the server. Cleric and bard good on both.

Wizard / rogue is game changing on red.

[fishingme]

To be fair that is true. But on blue, anything else, raiding included is only 0.001% of the game.

Its just a totally different play style, completely new avenues that were not available are now available...

soloing group content isnt 100% of the game, but things you can do with your shaman changes that much once you get an epic.

To me no other class 'changes' once the epic is obtained, some minor roll changes in a raid for bard sure, ill grant it that. But for a shaman the whole class changes once you get an epic, totally different class altogether with rather than without an epic.

Granted in sky, youre going to do the same things I know, but come on did you make your shaman to sit and buff people on raids? I dont think so.

Shaman, biggest change from epic, ergo most class defining epic.

I have to agree here. Bard still does what bard does, sings songs. Shaman gets to literally destroy 10+ mobs at a time with epic. Not just that though, all the people who get pissed off at epic shamans for killing many mobs at the same time end up coming to the forums to complain about how much more badass epic shamans are? It's far too game changing, heck it even changes the forums without even trying.

[Detoxx]

Wizard epic is only surpassed by the bard epic in longevity. Its 800pt rune and 3 mana regen with no regeant or mana is good till after PoP iirc.

[Vekonis]

I would say shaman epic is pretty high on the list.it truly is what makes a shaman a powerhouse soloer

[iruinedyourday]

I would say shaman epic is pretty high on the list.it truly is what makes a shaman a powerhouse soloer

I have now played a shaman at 60 with an epic and one without.

The difference is so drastic the two feel like different classes. You literately cannot do 90% of what you can do with an epic.

It is THE class defining epic IMO.

[Hakun]

I guess I am missing something but I don't understand why the shaman epic is considered so powerful? Druids and Necros for instance get a free dot as well. The only real difference I can see is that Shamans have slow making it easier to survive a hard hitting summoning mob.

[Daldaen]

I guess I am missing something but I don't understand why the shaman epic is considered so powerful? Druids and Necros for instance get a free dot as well. The only real difference I can see is that Shamans have slow making it easier to survive a hard hitting summoning mob.

Druid/Necro are also Snare DoTs.

Shaman allows them to nearly mana-free Root-Rot mobs. Come Velious, the Druid/Necro ones are also usable for this purpose when root/snare stack.

But currently Shamans can level 50-60 solo by just casting epic + Root and no other spells, with decent speed/efficiency.

[Hakun]

Come Velious, the Druid/Necro ones are also usable for this purpose when root/snare stack.
Missed the stacking part. Thanks for the clarification!

[Samoht]

That's not class defining, though. It's a small niche use that allows shamans to solo already trivial mobs that they'd otherwise be able to solo anyway. It doesn't add any new versatility, and it adds absolutely nothing to groups or raids. It just makes trash farming easier to do while avoiding groups.

[Clark]

Druid/Necro are also Snare DoTs.

Shaman allows them to nearly mana-free Root-Rot mobs. Come Velious, the Druid/Necro ones are also usable for this purpose when root/snare stack.

But currently Shamans can level 50-60 solo by just casting epic + Root and no other spells, with decent speed/efficiency.

This + cleric for mass rezzing.

I think I'd add wizard and monk epic too because it's best in slot forever.

[Jimjam]

The shaman epic quest gives shamans instaclick self sow... I loved these so much on live.