Expected Problems/Solution Needed

[Sampten]

I think the environment here on P99 is going to create some serious headaches with Velious's launch and something "unclassic" is going to need to be implemented prior to the launch to resolve these issues before the get out of hand instantly.

As it pertains to 3 huge Velious Quests:

Killing Dain, and turning his head in to KT yields Belt of the Dwarf Slaying.
Killing KT and turning his head in to Yelinak yields CGS/White Dragonscale Boots/ White Dragon Head.
Killing Yelinak and turning his head into KT yields Gauntlets of the Dragon Slaying
Oh and you need Dain up to do the 10th ring war

The problem with all of is the server environment created here will prevent people from doing these turn ins.

When a mob spawns currently, it's engaged within seconds. Velious will not change that.

How are people going to be able to do these turn ins, and/or spawn the 10th ring war when these mobs will be snap pulled/killed on spawn?

This needs to be addressed via some sort of additional NPCs that are not killable or sorts. Unclassic? Sure, but it's a necessity.

Secondly is the Cobolt Scar key. One could just block everybody by killing the quest mob, and preventing others from doing the quest, or the mob could just be made "unkillable". The quest is as simple as running from Skyshrine to Kael and back. If the mob is killable, it's going to create a bloody mess of hundreds of people trying to either somehow get "FTE" (see 200+ people on blue for an FFA VS yesterday).

Unfortunately in both situations "Play Nice" isn't going to hold up. I'd like to think that the devs are going to be proactive here and address a problem before it's a complete mess for GMs and Guides but these issues should be addressed head on, rather than after the fact.

[Littlegyno 13.0]

Excellent question.

Almost positive you don't need Dain up to spawn the ring war, you need him to get the Declaration of War.

[Ele]

Will purposely starting and failing the ring war while a guild is attempting Dain be raid interference?

Will tagging a raid mob for faction be raid interference?

[Sampten]

Will purposely starting and failing the ring war while a guild is attempting Dain be raid interference?

Will tagging a raid mob for faction be raid interference?

These are more GM questions than actual prevention of play questions.

The inability to complete the turn-ins is a problem because raid mobs and turn in mobs happen to be the exact same thing in these instances. With the way mobs are snap pulled on spawn, this won't change in Velious.

Furthermore, the locking down of the quest mob to prevent others from gaining access to Cobolt Scar is a prevention of play issue.

While trying to stick to "classic" is understanding, these clear issues should be addressed (IMO) before launch by either creating a turn in NPC somewhere, and/or simply making a mob "unkillable".

[Kegluas]

Will the guild that kills Statue have the rights to AoW for that cycle? the first attempt? or is he going to be FFA?

[Sampten]

Will the guild that kills Statue have the rights to AoW for that cycle? the first attempt? or is he going to be FFA?

Again, this is a GM question, not a prevention of play question.

They are different animals.

[Littlegyno 13.0]

u dont have this issue on red99 yowl. just saying.

[Daldaen]

Tagging other guild's mobs for faction hits shouldn't be interference. That happened all the time. So long as you wait until the mob is being DPS'd and you just get 1 point of damage in, so that you cannot mess with their mob, you should be set.

AoW I'll imagine is like all spawned mobs. You have 20min then he goes FFA. See Efreetis in Sky.

The city lord quests, so long as their spawn times are fixed durations, and you know when the next spawn is, it should be manageable. If they add 16 hour variance to Velious (worst decision imaginable, add station cash, mercenaries and defiant gear while you're at it), then it's a huge issue.

The CLASSIC Respawn on KT, Yelinak and Dain is exactly 7 days. Obtain the respawn timer and be there at the time waiting to turn in. I imagine many of these will be CoTH engages which takes 12s to cast etc. You do have a small window and some pullers are going to die giving you some window to turn in also I'm sure. Plus sim repops, etc.

[Sampten]

The CLASSIC Respawn on KT, Yelinak and Dain is exactly 7 days. Obtain the respawn timer and be there at the time waiting to turn in. I imagine many of these will be CoTH engages which takes 12s to cast etc. You do have a small window and some pullers are going to die giving you some window to turn in also I'm sure. Plus sim repops, etc.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen/heard to be honest and has absolutely nothing to do with variance. You have 12 seconds or less to do a turn in, or in the case of Yelinak, 3 turns ins before somebody pulls said raid mob....you've got to be kidding me.....

That's not a solution to what is going to be a major problem.

Since the server ends at Velious, the amount of guilds competing for these mobs will only exponentially increase.

This needs to be addressed via a "non classic" NPC, and you could stick that NPC near the zone in for each of these zones. Regardless, this is something that Nilbog and others need to discuss, figure out a solution, and test.

This is going to create an absolute nightmare for the GMs and Guides. Without being proactive, this is going to be a complete cluster*****

[Daldaen]

Eh I dunno how many will be done in 12seconds and variance does matter. Yelinak won't be pulled in 12s. He will be like Trakanon. Except more extended. People will CoTH down an engage force then get their DPS down after. Tormax will probably get pulled right away, and Dain possibly as well.

There's a big difference between show up at 8:00 PM and he will spawn. And hang around between 2 AM and 6 PM and he will spawn.

I dunno. I'm not an enormous fan of some non-classic mechanics, so that 3 quests may be more easily completed.

If you are in possession of these raid mob's heads, your guild is the one who is perpetrating the instant engage issue. In which case you can likely hault it yourself or come to an agreement with your competition to... /gasp, rotate the mobs so that when its your spawn you can leave it up to allow people to do turnins then kill?

[Sampten]

Eh I dunno how many will be done in 12seconds and variance does matter. Yelinak won't be pulled in 12s. He will be like Trakanon. Except more extended. People will CoTH down an engage force then get their DPS down after. Tormax will probably get pulled right away, and Dain possibly as well.

There's a big difference between show up at 8:00 PM and he will spawn. And hang around between 2 AM and 6 PM and he will spawn.

I dunno. I'm not an enormous fan of some non-classic mechanics, so that 3 quests may be more easily completed.

If you are in possession of these raid mob's heads, your guild is the one who is perpetrating the instant engage issue. In which case you can likely hault it yourself or come to an agreement with your competition to... /gasp, rotate the mobs so that when its your spawn you can leave it up to allow people to do turnins then kill?

This is a proactive discussion that need to be thought out about from a developer standpoint. How do I prevent a problem which is unavoidable? What's the best way to do it?

What about the Cobolt Scar quest mob?

It's not black and white. What's stopping Guild A from blocking Guild B, C, D and E from gaining access to CS/SG/WW/ToV by simply perma-killing the quest mob for weeks on end?

I have zero faith in people's ability to cooperate here. The raid atmosphere is toxic and these people genuinely do not respect one another. People aren't going to wait for others to do a turn in. That just gives them a bigger buffer to get people online ready to engage said mob. That "gentlemen's agreement" will fail. People will complain and GMs will deal with unnecessary drama. Why create more work for GMs?

Your solution is to sit there and wait and hope to make a turn in? In the event of variance, that means sitting there, waiting for 16 hours, in hopes of getting a turn in done before a pull. Whether or not their is variance in my opinion is moot. A logical solution needs to be implemented.

This server isn't "classic" There's many things here that aren't classic. An NPC in each of these zones that can be utilized for the turn ins hardly makes this "unclassic" It simply addresses a problem with the emulation and its community.

[Raev]

1. Both Wenglawks and Ziglark are currently invulnerable. Anyone with 200 platinum will be able to get a Cobalt Scar key.

2. I don't see any Velious bosses being engaged instantly, at least at first. Velious targets aren't as trivial as Kunark ones.

[Grimjaw]

while were at it, I try to turn in my jboots quest but other people are killing him to spawn some other npc. can we make it so that hasten is always up?

[ArumTP]

People kill ragefire before we can buy imbue fire opal spell as well

[Coffee]

u dont have this issue on red99 yowl. just saying.

dang ima go make a new char on red, pm sent

[Colgate]

real glad that when i want to turn in a dain head i can kill any other guilds trying to attack king tormax

[vouss]

while were at it, I try to turn in my jboots quest but other people are killing him to spawn some other npc. can we make it so that hasten is always up?

[Jeni]

I feel like blue has made their bed and can now sleep in it.

[Misek84]

I think people have been smoking that kunark grass for way to long to think that dain/tormax/yel will b pulled as they spawn not letting someone complete the rather rare head quests. Raid forces will be spread out alot more considering the huge increase in targets and you cannot just zerg a raid mob with 30 and expect to win in velious like you did in kunark. Lets not go crazy and change quest dynamics just because of unfounded suspicions that velious will be so trival that the main raid mobs can b engaged within secs of spawning like in kunark lol

[Man0warr]

Not to mention the people with these heads to turn in will be part of the guilds most capable of pulling the raid targets when they spawn - I think they will figure something out.

[Nirgon]

real glad that when i want to turn in a dain head i can kill any other guilds trying to attack king tormax

[maximum]

This needs to be addressed via some sort of additional NPCs that are not killable or sorts. Unclassic? Sure, but it's a necessity..

If you are right about Velious Frozenpoop-socking, this seems like the best idea. A "King Tormax Quest NPC" mob near KT's spawn makes the most sense.

[Daldaen]

If you are right about Velious Frozenpoop-socking, this seems like the best idea. A "King Tormax Quest NPC" mob near KT's spawn makes the most sense.

No.

These mobs being dead was part of the annoyance of these quest. Also those who are doing the quest are the exact players who are killing the mobs, they can figure something out amongst themselves to complete these quests.

[Jaxon]

It sounds like getting a head to turn in implies you'll be doing tracking duty for your guild next week. These mobs aren't like Ragefire; you're gonna have at least 12 seconds and in some cases a minute or two to do the turn in. I don't see the problem here.

[Daldaen]

All 3 of them are 7 day exact timers, so you will know or be able to figure out the exact spawn time. Sometimes it may happen that you miss it and have to try to get it next week. Or sometimes if that 7 day respawn is at a bad time for you, wait for sim repops.

[Supaskillz]

If timers have no variance, why would anyone have time to turn in. People will be buffed and ready to engage when the mob spawns.

[Daldaen]

That is dependant on which rules they keep.

If they keep the "You cannot poopsock on a spawn point" rule, Yelinak will require CotHs, upwards of 2-3min before an engage force is viable I would think.

Dain will require pulling/splitting. As will Tormax. If they start to come down hard on training shit around and require people to clear in, that would be helpful. And if they keep no FTEing with a tracker, that will buy more time as well

But again, these quests are only really relevant for raiders who are killing them. If your guild is the one FTEing Tormax 1s after spawn, tough shit you can't turn in Dain's head.

The only one thats relevant IMO is the Dain due to shawl/ring quests , who will take some time setting up especially if they don't allow people to poopsock down the well.

A lot of the raid rules in Kunark going forward to Velious need some clarification on whats allowable and whats not.

[Buhbuh]

Red99 - winning

[Brocode]

didnt they say that FTE thing is off on velious?

[Ele]

didnt they say that FTE thing is off on velious?

Mobs still have FTE messages in Velious.

[Teneran]

On Live I had the Dain's head and needed to turn in to Tormax, who was often killed by a Euro guild on my server before I got online. So ... once I had the faction I had to camp my character in the throne room and had my girlfriend log me in when I was at work and do the turn in for me.

So ... these issues were on live somewhat. That said, there was no way you had 12 seconds or 2-3 minutes only to do a turn in (that's ridiculous); it was more like a few hours absolute worst case. You might have had a small annoyance factor like I described above but there is nothing "classic" about what's being potentially described in this thread.

Also, on Live people tagged bosses for faction all the time, that was accepted practice as long as doing so didn't interfere with the raid.

Killing Statue means you get AoW; you spawned it, it's your mob. Since AoW despawns I would think some reasonable time to engage would be required and he would go FFA on a wipe.

[Daldaen]

What people seem to not grasp is.

If you are turning in a city leaders head to an opposing city leader. Your guild is getting kills. If your guild is getting kills, they are solely at fault for these mobs being tagged within 10 seconds of spawn.

You do not deserve or warrant an unclassic fix for a problem you are creating yourself.

Learn to be adults for once and maybe agree with your competition to rotate these mobs and not kill them the second they spawn. Then you will have plenty of time to turn in your piece.

[Man0warr]

In the current rules, the main problem I see coming up is the 2 person limit near the boss when waiting for spawn.

If you have people in your guild waiting for Dain/Tormax/Yelinak to spawn, you are disqualifying your guild from tracking the boss.

Either a provision for this will need to be added to the rules (questers and trackers can't FTE), or some sort of pseudo rotation will evolve.

[Pringles]

In the current rules, the main problem I see coming up is the 2 person limit near the boss when waiting for spawn.

If you have people in your guild waiting for Dain/Tormax/Yelinak to spawn, you are disqualifying your guild from tracking the boss.

Either a provision for this will need to be added to the rules (questers and trackers can't FTE), or some sort of pseudo rotation will evolve.

so figure it out, its not rocket surgery - new rules are not needed.

[Supaskillz]

What people seem to not grasp is.

If you are turning in a city leaders head to an opposing city leader. Your guild is getting kills. If your guild is getting kills, they are solely at fault for these mobs being tagged within 10 seconds of spawn.

You do not deserve or warrant an unclassic fix for a problem you are creating yourself.

Learn to be adults for once and maybe agree with your competition to rotate these mobs and not kill them the second they spawn. Then you will have plenty of time to turn in your piece.

I do not think its fair to assume that you have to be in a guild killing dain to need dain for a quest.

I do not expect to be getting city leader kills unless they are on some sort of rotation. I do however have ambition to do the ring quest because I think it is an awsome quest and it is doable without getting some FTE kill. If they introduce variance I will have to poopsock dain in order to hand in an item, something my schedule would not allow me to do. If the spawns are fixed I have to hope that (a) I can get a spawn timer from a guild who likely tries to protect that information and (b) be able to sneak in a turn in before they engage (which could be almost istantly depending on wether or not people are allowed to be in zone before the spawn).

I am not certain that is appropriate to make a non-classic fix, I think this discussion however is valuable for the community have and I hope that the attitude of the majority is not just tough shit if you are not in the guild getting the kills.