Wizard vs Magician epic

[nuuki]

Hello guys

I like having an end goal in mind when playing and want to focus on wizard or magician, but wondering if someone can help me understand which class' epic is harder to obtain, and whether any changes to its difficulty are seen in the velious expansion.

Appreciate the help.

Thanks

[mr_jon3s]

Both are hard but a wizard doesn't really need his epic where a mage with epic is just insane dps. Once they revamp the planes months maybe years into velious it should be eaiser to get both.

[wycca]

Both are horrid to get right now. So much so that I'd not consider the epic for either class to be achievable if you're posting in this forum.

Eventually though, I believe Mage epic will be easier than Wizard epic for many people, since it gets moved off Inny to Minis/trash.

[nuuki]

Thanks guys for the response.

So both are super hard even if I played until 60 and joined a guild? Is the epic only available to just a select few people?

wycca would that make the magician epic much easier or are there other bottlenecks too?

And how come you say wizard doesn't really need the epic? It seems pretty great to me, or is it not?

[dafier]

On live, years ago...

Speaking ONLY for mage epic:

I achieved 2 mage epics. Both were after they moved the earth staff drop off of Inny to the Arch Mage mini in hate. (that time frame)

Over all I think it's not bad at all. You have to be prepared to camp....days if not many hours for items. And, for the most part you need help from others to take down specific mobs. But as of right now on this server, the era, I think the most difficult parts would be PoS Isle 7 crown (which can be purchased with PP) and Inny for the Earth staff.

Autropos isn't too bad if you have a couple groups and HOPEFULLY he will have the staff in hand.

Anyway, if you have a influence in guild and people are willing to help, then I think this would be not as bad as you think.

Another point.... I heard Inny can only be tagged by certain people from certain guilds. That is a pain .....a big one.

[dafier]

Thanks guys for the response.

So both are super hard even if I played until 60 and joined a guild? Is the epic only available to just a select few people?

wycca would that make the magician epic much easier or are there other bottlenecks too?

And how come you say wizard doesn't really need the epic? It seems pretty great to me, or is it not?

Wizard epic is VERY nice however they epic is for pure stat base increases only.

Mage epic is stat base increase and a pet that is a absolute monster.

Mage >>>>>>>> Wizard

When talking about epic and class benefits.

[Colgate]

? the wizard epic is a free 800 point rune that you can use to manastone and/or mana robe to med up super fast, not to mention the rune itself gives +3 mana regen

hardly just a stat increase

[maskedmelon]

The issues here for Mage epic are due to endgame congestion. Still achievable though. Just need to get 60, grow a beard, put on a diaper and app to TMO. Celsius launch may ease things a bi, followed by revamp which will do the same.

[nuuki]

On live, years ago...

Speaking ONLY for mage epic:

I achieved 2 mage epics. Both were after they moved the earth staff drop off of Inny to the Arch Mage mini in hate. (that time frame)

Over all I think it's not bad at all. You have to be prepared to camp....days if not many hours for items. And, for the most part you need help from others to take down specific mobs. But as of right now on this server, the era, I think the most difficult parts would be PoS Isle 7 crown (which can be purchased with PP) and Inny for the Earth staff.

Autropos isn't too bad if you have a couple groups and HOPEFULLY he will have the staff in hand.

Anyway, if you have a influence in guild and people are willing to help, then I think this would be not as bad as you think.

Another point.... I heard Inny can only be tagged by certain people from certain guilds. That is a pain .....a big one.

Is the change from Innoruuk to the mini really that big of a deal? If a guild is fighting in the plane wouldn't they just kill everything anyway?

[nuuki]

The issues here for Mage epic are due to endgame congestion. Still achievable though. Just need to get 60, grow a beard, put on a diaper and app to TMO. Celsius launch may ease things a bi, followed by revamp which will do the same.

So right now only this one guild has people with the mage epic? So far to be honest I have seen exactly 0 mages with their epics so I would totally believe that.

[azeth]

So right now only this one guild has people with the mage epic?

There are probably 6 guilds that have Innoruuk kills since 12/31/14.

Level up, join one, ???, profit.

At the moment, I'd say the Wizard epic is harder to obtain due to the value of Venril Sathir's drops over Innoruuks. My understanding is that guilds would favor VS over Inny if both were up and they could choose only one.

[dafier]

? the wizard epic is a free 800 point rune that you can use to manastone and/or mana robe to med up super fast, not to mention the rune itself gives +3 mana regen

hardly just a stat increase

I stand corrected. Thank you.

[nuuki]

There are probably 6 guilds that have Innoruuk kills since 12/31/14.

Level up, join one, ???, profit.

At the moment, I'd say the Wizard epic is harder to obtain due to the value of Venril Sathir's drops over Innoruuks. My understanding is that guilds would favor VS over Inny if both were up and they could choose only one.

And the wizard epic doesn't change at all in Velious like the magician one?

[dafier]

Is the change from Innoruuk to the mini really that big of a deal? If a guild is fighting in the plane wouldn't they just kill everything anyway?

In my opinion, yes. Well...my thought process is still thinking Live, NOT P99. Inny back in the day was a VERY tough boss. Yes, guilds could take him down but not many did. I remember Inny being left up for days at a time due to raid forces not gathering to kill him. The minis especially for epic quests were easier to kill and didn't require the overall raid power to get the item.

So, yes. It was a HUGE deal.

[maskedmelon]

Is the change from Innoruuk to the mini really that big of a deal? If a guild is fighting in the plane wouldn't they just kill everything anyway?

You would expect that to be the case, but it is not. Inny is regularly killed without clearing Hate :/

And to your other question, no not just one guild with Mage epics, but due to the raid structure that one has historically offered the best chance of obtaining it for various reasons.

It is not a hopeless endeavor though, just something you will likely need to wait quite some time for ^^

[azeth]

In my opinion, yes. Well...my thought process is still thinking Live, NOT P99. Inny back in the day was a VERY tough boss. Yes, guilds could take him down but not many did. I remember Inny being left up for days at a time due to raid forces not gathering to kill him. The minis especially for epic quests were easier to kill and didn't require the overall raid power to get the item.

So, yes. It was a HUGE deal.

well, the major reason its a "HUGE deal" is that the mini bosses will have like a 3 day respawn. Inny has 7 with variance.

[maskedmelon]

And the wizard epic doesn't change at all in Velious like the magician one?

You mean availability? We'll many raid guilds will move on to Velious progression, so that may free up old world raid targets some, bit hard to say. It all depends on how much time players have ^^ Just be glad you aren't a ranger ^^

[Velerin]

After doing mage epic here and a couple times on live one piece of advice I give all new mages is to knock out some of the epic stuff while leveling.
Lots of the early mage epic is low level really rare drops and doing these at 50+ will drive you crazy. Do them while you get exp and they are much better. Najena in 20s, Sol A in high20s/30s (power of fire), SK in 30s and always keep an eye out for an errant Quill (stay near his roaming paths). Kill Phinney every chance you can (The water staff is also a focus for your 50+ water pets.) People here do Sky everyday so the crown is easy. Don't let anyone gouge you, since there's like thousands lying around in guild banks.
The earth staff is the bottleneck since its a rare drop off a highly contested mob.

[Tiggles]

Mage epic is easy.

Join TMO and you will get a staff eventually. Don't listen to the haters.

[skootr]

And the wizard epic doesn't change at all in Velious like the magician one?

Wiz epic will no longer require cazic skin, there will be an NPC in fear that you hand an item to and have to kill (with assistance) post Velious epic quest changes. Still need drop from VS though so that will be the bottle neck. Right now CT skin and VS drop are the bottle necks, though a multi-quest turn in on the skin does happen every so often.

[Nefarum]

Both the wizard and mage epics are pretty hard to get. In Velious the main bottleneck for the wizard epic (Venril Sathir) doesn't change, so I'd say the wizard one is a bit harder to obtain.

It's possible to get them, but you'll need to join a top raiding guild to do so.

[skootr]

I'd rank both epics pretty important to the classes. 800hp rune +3 mana regen that stacks with every other mana regen is pretty sweet with how mana dependent wizards are to be of any use. Manastone makes it crazy good, but that is only in old world zones. If I recall correctly Manarobe cast time isn't the best so was not worth using until mounts came out and you could med/cast.

[Nefarum]

If I recall correctly Manarobe cast time isn't the best so was not worth using until mounts came out and you could med/cast.

You can get off exactly one manna robe cast between server ticks, so sit, cast, sit is faster than just meditating.

[dafier]

Again I did both Mage epics in Velious time frame. It wasn't too difficult. Bottle necks were Water and Earth staff. They literally had me waiting for weeks if not months. The pay off was well worth it.

[Ele]

Both the wizard and mage epics are pretty hard to get. In Velious the main bottleneck for the wizard epic (Venril Sathir) doesn't change, so I'd say the wizard one is a bit harder to obtain.

It's possible to get them, but you'll need to join a top raiding guild to do so.

VS becomes a 3 day spawn on April 17, 2001 (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010417a.html).

[Nefarum]

VS becomes a 3 day spawn on April 17, 2001 (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010417a.html).

Interesting.

[wycca]

Thanks guys for the response.

So both are super hard even if I played until 60 and joined a guild? Is the epic only available to just a select few people?

wycca would that make the magician epic much easier or are there other bottlenecks too?

And how come you say wizard doesn't really need the epic? It seems pretty great to me, or is it not?

PoHate/Fear revamp - 3-14-01 - (Mage staff moves to Magi+regular Revs, CT skin eliminated)
VS timer adjustment - 4-17-01 -

Mage epic - Lots of various parts. On P99 Quillimaine is no big secret. Additionally, you can buy the PoSky Isle 7 piece. Phinny isn't actually too hard, he can be duo'd with a 55+ mage and a 49+ mage or necro np. This leaves the PoHate staff. Right now Inny is a 7day spawn and is a hot target. As mentioned above, he moves to a 72hr (with 12hr variance) mini-boss who is level 55 (can likely be solo'd, at least duo'd np). There's some evidence that, at start, Magi was on an 8hr timer. Additionally, the regular male revs have about a 2% chance to drop the staff as well.

Wiz epic - Major parts are - Tola powder, Phinny Staff, CT Skin, and VS staff. The tola powder is tougher to get than the Phinny staff (which as mentioned above, can be duo'd by the right classes). Not a huge block though. CT is super sought after and is arguably harder to kill than Inny by guilds. Additionally, VS is probably the most contested mob in the game - with the largest # of guilds competing for him and the fastest engage times. Even with the skin eliminated, and VS going to 3 days, its still a harder epic (in terms of mob difficulty/competition) than the Mage one with more competition.

As far as epic value, there are alot less Mages than Wizards on the raid scene. Nevertheless, the Mage epic, especially given that we will never see PoP, is the best epic in the game. The epic pet is such a huge upgrade. For a wizard, you have Manaskin available. Sure it costs mana and dots, but it provides a similar rune and 2 mana regen. This is hardly game changing for the class by itself - nice to be sure, but not game changing. It's much nicer when you start combining it with a Manna Robe or Manastone. However, they both are expensive and have various limitations. Manastone cannot be used in Kunark or Velious or the Planes, and the Manna Robe has a cast time - you can zone for the stone, or do the sit/stand/cast dance on the Robe, then click your epic (or diamond rod) for some mana regen. This is not a short or hassle-free ritual. At that point, you'd start to wonder if it may not just be better in many circumstances to not spend the mana in the first place and have to screw with it, and to instead use a clicky robe. If you're already talking Manastone or Manna Robe or Inny or CT or VS, then you also have to consider the Rend Robe, Hoshkar Staff, Velk Robe, Inny wand, etc. Rend robe is 55dps, Hoshkar staff is a 30dps lure, Velk robe is 40dps, etc with no sitting/clicking/zoning/etc. Sunstrike (most mana efficient wiz nuke) is 230dps over it's 7sec cast, but it costs 405mana after spec - ~14 manastone/robe clickies per epic click = 280 mana, so you'll need at least 2 epic clicks. That's 30sec there, plus you can't spam manastone (and manna robe is 3sec), but ignoring all of that, Sunstrike, with 37sec (7sec cast+30sec of epic clicking) is now down to 43.6dps. While wizards mana regen doesn't just apply to their nukes, it is the main focus of their mana regen. By the time you add in click delay for manastone (and or zoning to an old zone), plus you add in sit/cast for manna robe...the epic isn't so hot when it comes to dps boosts - it's in a class with at least 3 other items. The mana-free and reagent-free rune is pretty great, but...how much of an impact vs. Manaskin, Diamond Rod, etc? An epic mage is defined by their epic...whereas an epic wizard - I don't think there is a huge difference between a non-epic, assuming you're comparing the entire raid scene's loot choices. There is a reason that the wiz epic is something I've passed on more than once.

In the end, Wizards gain less with their epic than Mages do and, IMO, have some decent alternative arrangements that provide much of the same perks.

One last note, the Wiz epic requires 3 seperate staffs. Each of which have some pretty great stats, specifically resists. In fact, the Wiz epic is the only one where the items turned in, combined, have better stats than the final epic. On any fight that requires MR, PR, FR/CR - there's a good chance you're going to not be using your epic and instead are going to be using the Tola or Phinny staffs for the resists. In this area, the wiz epic is also weaker than the mage epic IMO (which is both a pet AND a primary item).

In the end, the wiz epic is a slightly better mana-free Manaskin. You don't NEED it as a wizard because there's other things you can get which provide or circumvent the benefit it theoretically provides. The mage epic, has no such similar limitations.

TL:DR - Mage epic will eventually be a ~3day bottleneck on a mob that can likely be duo'd or a 12hr respawn on another mob that can be duo'd plus a bunch of camping you can do soloish. That in no way compares to the wiz epic, which is undoubtedly harder and with more competitive mobs. There is no real comparison to the Mage epic, which defines a Mage, with the Wizard epic, whose utility is diminished by a plethora of raid alternatives. Mage epic = easier and defining, Wiz epic = harder and value diminished by presence of Manaskin+other items (ie not class defining).

[nuuki]

Wow that's amazing, thank you.

How good truly is the mage epic pet? I understand some of the hardest solo content is in the Howling Stones zone and it seems only Necro/Enc/Shaman can solo in there. Would an epic mage be able to do so, as well?

[falkun]

Nevertheless, the Mage epic, especially given that we will never see PoP, is the best epic in the game.

Clerics and bards would like to have a word with you. Cleric epic never gets banked. Ever. And bards were using their epics until instrument mods started getting added to other gear in the EPs of PoP.

[Velerin]

1 vs. 1 the mage epic is a beast, esp for things that can be stunned. He has a ton of hp (4k unbuffed) and 50 point self DS. Adds still kick his ass since mages have no cc other than root nets however so you can't really solo HS, seb, etc. without burning a lot of nets to split a camp.

[nuuki]

1 vs. 1 the mage epic is a beast, esp for things that can be stunned. He has a ton of hp (4k unbuffed) and 50 point self DS. Adds still kick his ass since mages have no cc other than root nets however so you can't really solo HS, seb, etc. without burning a lot of nets to split a camp.

Oh ok. So then is it in a raid setting that the crazy pet truly shines or just adding a lot of dps to xp/camp groups?

[Velerin]

He really shines in duos/trios where you can utilize his tanking abilities and great DS. I haven't parsed but I don't know how much better his raw dps is over a well positioned focused 60 water pet.

[wycca]

Clerics and bards would like to have a word with you. Cleric epic never gets banked. Ever. And bards were using their epics until instrument mods started getting added to other gear in the EPs of PoP.

I always broke it down like this to explain those epics (each tier eliminates the epic from contention btw) -

Best Epic for Entire Server - Cleric
Best Epic for a Raiding Guild - Bard
Best Epic for an Individual Player - Mage

Saving a bit of discussion, there were several other great epics that persisted - Rogue epics were worn for a long time in the range slot, Monk gloves lasted until GoD at the least.


As far as the Mage epic pet itself - it's just a beast against content. While mages still lack critical support things for some camps, it has a ton of uses. For one, you can bank a couple (3 to be exact) for splitting places, but even then I'd probably carry a bag of root nets.

There is no problem with the pet, which is a giant wrecking machine. I once trained up the KC basement and verix on my cleric to an epic mage. I'd root mobs, cheal the pet, and continue to root. After a few minutes the mage pet had chewed through all of the mobs. A mage can't do that solo, but I can't think of any other class that could do the same thing that fast or that easily. It's just a friggin beast. Don't forget the mage was still there as a casting class. The pet was easy to heal, did great dps, was a great tank overall, had a killer dmg shield, and we just really never were in trouble even though there were probably 10-15 mobs on us. I honestly thought the guild mage was joking when he said - just train it up, cheal the pet, and root mobs that he's not on. I trained them up as sort of a joke response - except he was serious.

[maskedmelon]

How does one 'bank' the pet?? o.O

[Darkatar]

How does one 'bank' the pet?? o.O

Corpse epics.

[maskedmelon]

Corpse epics.

Beyond being ludicrous, I don't see how this helps :/

[wycca]

You can corpse bank, but I was thinking of summon pet, wait 10 minutes, summon new staff, wait 10min for spell cool down = three pets good to go.