Shaman race debate

[DevGrousis]

I know this might be hidden in the forums somewhere, and trust me I tried to find a thread dedicated to it, but failed. So here goes:

What race is the best choice for shammy? Obviously good and evil both have implications to difficulty level in travel, banking, etc. But based on stats alone, which will give me the biggest leg up.

Secondary question ive got: I only have about 500p cash right now. Is it worth spending a week or so farming some plat with my 42 enc, or are shamans not gear dependent at all? If so, where are some good spots I could farm with my ench? I was thinking halfling guards would be relatively easy. Any tips there?

Thanks and sorry if this is reposty

Dev

[Sampten]

Probably Iksar because of their natural regen abilities. As a shaman you will canni often. As an iksar you will naturally regain HP faster.

[Juryiel]

For shaman, Ogre is the undisputed best class. There are many factors to consider, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that Ogres are Ogres. Unlike other races which are nowhere near as Ogre-like as Ogres, with most of them actually being not even remotely Ogre-like, Ogres have the unique ability to be Ogres. Ask yourself, do you really want to be going up against PD or AoW (when velious comes out) while simultaneously not being an Ogre?

[Samoht]

there are more questions to ask than simply "what race"

do you want to solo? do you want to pvp? do you want to be able to travel freely and take druid ports without fear of getting attacked at certain rings? do you have cash to afford fungi? torpor?

ogres have frontal stun immunity
trolls and iksar have regen
iksars lack bash

all are KoS to most other races (iksar more so)

barbs have bash, aren't KoS everywhere, but lack the perks of the other races

so get your priorities straight and you'll be able to answer your own question. then pick the race that looks the coolest.

[khanable]

People can make decent arguments for troll and ogre. Play whatever race you like and get good at it. Brief summary of talking points for each race:

Ogre: stun immunity, no regen, can use plate, dat sta/str so gud
Troll: regen, can use plate, good sta/str
Iksar: regen, no plate, meh sta/str
Barb: no regen, can use plate, ok sta/str

edit: as mentioned above, big guys get bash too

[Ele]

Some light reading:
http://wiki.project1999.com/Shaman
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134483
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172855
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168526
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165980
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118245
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147407
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146409
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142345
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134615
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140802
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140500

People are going to say Iksar or Troll or Ogre. Barb is easily left behind simply on Racial abilities, but have the least amount of exp penalty.

You need to take into account the racial exp penalties that affect Iksar/Troll/Ogre.

Troll probably most well rounded. Slam/Regen

Ogre if you want to eek out the tiniest sliver of performance upgrade for frontal stun immunity.

Iksar can't use JBB , if you are inclined to want that item.



If you aren't dropping a fungi+Epic on this shaman and plan to go through the ropes and level normally, try Iksar or Troll.

You also need to consider that most of it becomes a wash once you get level 60 and the spell Torpor which will break your bank.

[Samoht]

People can make decent arguments for troll and ogre. Play whatever race you like and get good at it. Brief summary of talking points for each race:

Ogre: stun immunity, no regen, can use plate, dat sta/str so gud
Troll: regen, can use plate, good sta/str
Iksar: regen, no plate, meh sta/str
Barb: no regen, can use plate, ok sta/str

edit: as mentioned above, big guys get bash too

slightly misleading, shaman class gets chain, not plate, but some unclassified armor is only useable by plate races (chitin, jaundiced, etc) because it LOOKS like plate.

shamans don't get plate, but iksar can't wear everything the other guys can

[loramin]

I know this might be hidden in the forums somewhere, and trust me I tried to find a thread dedicated to it, but failed. So here goes:

What race is the best choice for shammy? Obviously good and evil both have implications to difficulty level in travel, banking, etc. But based on stats alone, which will give me the biggest leg up.

Stats are the worst (from a power-gaming perspective) way to pick a race. Racial abilities are far more relevant ...


Ogre is the best race if you get to level 60 and get Torpor. Torpor basically negates the benefits of Troll/Iksar regen, so at this (very late) stage of the game Ogre has the only racial that matters (and no one cares about XP penalties at level 60)
Iksar are the next best at 60, because regeneration is awesome until you get Torpor, and because Iksar have an AC bonus that is still useful at 60. Iksar can't use the Jaundiced Bone Bracer, which is a very useful item from 45-59, but by the time you get 60 it's not so relevant
Trolls are basically same as Iksar, except with no AC bonus and they can use the Jaundiced Bone Bracer (and they need slightly less faction work). This makes Trolls slightly worse than Iksar at 60 (because of no AC bonus) but better up until then because of the JBB
Barbarians have the lowest XP penalty and don't need faction work, so they'll level the fastest. But once they get to 60 they have no cool racials.


So basically, IF you want the most powerful race, and if you're in it for the long haul it's hard to argue against Ogre; it is the best race once you have level 60/Torpor. If you don't think you'll ever save up 100k for Torpor, maybe consider Iksar (better at 60) or Troll (almost as good at 60, and will have an easier time getting there). Only pick Barbarian if you really hate fixing faction or are in a hurry to level up (or, like me, you're just a masochist who loves Barbarian Shaman).

[Samoht]

ogre racial only slightly matters. you still get interrupted by push when channeling fails. it only prevents you from getting stunned from frontal cone, so a bash from the rear or side will still stun/interrupt.

ogre is only more beneficial when you intend to solo a lot at max level and can take full advantage of the stun immunity.

[loramin]

ogre racial only slightly matters. you still get interrupted by push when channeling fails. it only prevents you from getting stunned from frontal cone, so a bash from the rear or side will still stun/interrupt.

ogre is only more beneficial when you intend to solo a lot at max level and can take full advantage of the stun immunity.

That's true, the Ogre frontal stun immunity is not a HUGE ability. Certainly other races can be perfectly viable Shaman, and can even solo Velious mobs without it. And yeah, if you're the rare Shaman who plans to never solo at level 60, then it's really not that great.

But the point is, when you compare it to other race's abilities, at level 60/with Torpor no one else has anything better. Iksar/Troll regen just doesn't matter much when you can heal yourself so easily with Torpor. Iksar have a few more points of AC, but the difference those few points make in practice is extremely minimal (and perhaps completely meaningless for a raid Shaman who can get enough AC to hit the cap?). And the Barbarian's faction/low XP penalty is also completely meaningless at 60.

So it's not that the Ogre's racial is anything that great, it's just better than everything else (at 60/with Torpor).

[khanable]

slightly misleading, shaman class gets chain, not plate, but some unclassified armor is only useable by plate races (chitin, jaundiced, etc) because it LOOKS like plate.

shamans don't get plate, but iksar can't wear everything the other guys can

When I say "plate" I basically mean the following armor sets:

Jaundice (kunark)
Rune Etched (hate)
Totemic (old world)

[Rararboker]

I always just pick ogre because its my favorite race. My first char on live was ogre and I have continued that proud tradition here.

[slappytwotoes]

When I say "plate" I basically mean the following armor sets:

Jaundice (kunark)
Rune Etched (hate)
Totemic (old world)

Don't underestimate these sets either. While nothing here is BIS, you might be wearing Rune Etched or Totemic for a long time. The Jaundice clickies (especially JBB) are powerful time/mana savers till 60.

Much love for ikky but pre-60 and at 60 other races are better.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

For shaman, Ogre is the undisputed best class. There are many factors to consider, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that Ogres are Ogres. Unlike other races which are nowhere near as Ogre-like as Ogres, with most of them actually being not even remotely Ogre-like, Ogres have the unique ability to be Ogres. Ask yourself, do you really want to be going up against PD or AoW (when velious comes out) while simultaneously not being an Ogre?

Ogre or not to Ogre, that is the question.
Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of being called "fatty" all the time
Or to roll a human to avoid those troubles
And by avoiding, end them. To not be an Ogre, to be...
To be what? Not Ogre?
Fuck that.

[Itap]

Never played an Ogre. So ugly. Not fun to roleplay either, imo.

[DevGrousis]

If it helps, I do plan to solo most of my way to 60, but then again i've never played a shammy before, its just been something i've always wanted to do.

I do think that being KOS everywhere in the world would get really annoying, especially with banking, but I've never really played an evil toon, so you guys tell me: is it that big of a bummer?

I wouldn't play an Ogre because they're too ugly for me. So I guess my choice is between Barbarian and Iksar

[Cecily]

Trolls are the best pure raid shamans. The regen and extra STA makes a difference. Iksars are a good non-fat compromise. Barbs are just as ugly as the rest, so not much benefit to them at all. Would never play an ogre.

[loramin]

Barbs are just as ugly as the rest
My beautiful bear-hat-wearing avatar takes issue with that; be warned that you insult a Wolf of the North at your own peril! ;)

[Rararboker]

If it helps, I do plan to solo most of my way to 60, but then again i've never played a shammy before, its just been something i've always wanted to do.

I do think that being KOS everywhere in the world would get really annoying, especially with banking, but I've never really played an evil toon, so you guys tell me: is it that big of a bummer?

I wouldn't play an Ogre because they're too ugly for me. So I guess my choice is between Barbarian and Iksar

I only play evil characters myself and never really noticed banking to be an issue. I guess it might seem like that if your used to being good since you probably stick close to good aligned cities? As an evil race you do the opposite, you try to stick close to evil cities. For me I do 1-5 Nektulos, 5-10 EC, 10-15 befallen, 15-30Uguk. From there it changes daily but it is usually CoM, Lguk, SolB or something like that.

[iruinedyourday]

after having leveled a barb to 60 I would consider a troll. but then again shaman is so fun I may try a ogre after that, maybe I'll top it off with a nice tall frothy glass of iksar.

[Timelord]

I know this might be hidden in the forums somewhere, and trust me I tried to find a thread dedicated to it, but failed. So here goes:

What race is the best choice for shammy? Obviously good and evil both have implications to difficulty level in travel, banking, etc. But based on stats alone, which will give me the biggest leg up.

Secondary question ive got: I only have about 500p cash right now. Is it worth spending a week or so farming some plat with my 42 enc, or are shamans not gear dependent at all? If so, where are some good spots I could farm with my ench? I was thinking halfling guards would be relatively easy. Any tips there?

Thanks and sorry if this is reposty

Dev


Imo from playing multiple shamans to 60 and playing in Velious in mind:

Ogre is the best with frontal stun immunity for soloing in Velious specifically, then Troll for stats/regen, Iksar for regen, Barb for being able to visit your favorite good cities. In that order.

The easiest route would be to go barb or iksar and max wisdom so yo have more mana for soloing, then spend 250 on spells and the rest on cheap wisdom gear or a good weapon for the lower levels.

Hardest time for a shaman is 1-33. This is the time when you are stuck without very damaging spells and need to melee at the lower levels to kill things. This is if you are planning to solo, in groups you generally will heal.

Not worth the time farming on your enchanter. There isnt much you can buy with the money you would make that would really boost the experience of leveling your shaman, and at 39 you could easily farm the stuff the enchanter is farming and just get xp toward the shaman instead of xping the enchanter.

[DevGrousis]

Ok, I decided I'm going with the Iksar. Any starting stat ideas, aside from full on WIS ( referring to Timelord )

[Erydan Ouragan]

Ok, I decided I'm going with the Iksar. Any starting stat ideas?

All in wisdom imo, as you have buffs for other stats.

[Samoht]

Max stam then wis or vice versa

[DrKvothe]

Put as many points as you can at start into stamina, then the rest into wis. This isn't one of two equal answers, it's the right one.

The question of races has two right answers: troll and ogre. Iksar is basically troll but with much, much lower stats and severely limited gear access at the high end until velious. At 60 and with torpor (which is really, really expensive, you don't just automatically get torpor when you hit 60), the troll regen bonus is pretty negligible. There's considerable debate over how valuable frontal stun immunity is at 60, and answers range from very negligible to very important.

But hitting 60 and raising the money for torpor is not easy. It's very likely, even probable, that you won't reach 60. I mean you didn't on your enchanter, right? All the way up until having torpor, it's pretty well agreed upon that racial regen > frontal stun immunity. And as a 60 shaman with torpor, you're gonna be a bad ass mofo with or without frontal stun immunity. The hard part is getting there. That's why I'd roll troll.

Farm up a bit more cash with your enchanter and twink out your shaman a bit. 5/55 rings and a good weapon are pretty game-changing from 1-34.

[BlkCamel]

/cough *Signature*

[DevGrousis]

/cough *Signature*

reading your guide is what made me start to even THINK about an evil shammy haha I was dead set on a Barb and then I read your guide and began thinking of all the cool shammy evilness there was to be had!

[Sage Truthbearer]

Put as many points as you can at start into stamina, then the rest into wis. This isn't one of two equal answers, it's the right one.

Can you explain why? The Wis vs. Sta section of the wiki seems to break down everything mathematically and show that the case for WIS is pretty strong.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Shaman

[Swish]

the troll regen bonus is pretty negligible.

Not true, troll/iksar regen at 60 is OP versus other races :)

[iruinedyourday]

Not true, troll/iksar regen at 60 is OP versus other races :)

to be fair at 60 i stoped relying on regen for anything other than, meh, ill just regen that last bit of 10% hp....

Regen is wholy overrated at 60 IMO that is unless you dont have torp.

[Samoht]

Can you explain why? The Wis vs. Sta section of the wiki seems to break down everything mathematically and show that the case for WIS is pretty strong.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Shaman

i can't think of a single class where the wiki suggestions are actually the most optimal setup...

[Cecily]

I redid the rogue suggestions. They were bad... lol. Someone was saying dex / str or something awful.

[applesauce25r624]

I know this might be hidden in the forums somewhere, and trust me I tried to find a thread dedicated to it, but failed

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aproject1999.com%2Fforums+best+race+shama n

[Cecily]

If people didn't ask the same questions over and over again we wouldn't have anything to talk about.

[DrKvothe]

Yes, blackcamel has pointed out that I have a barb shaman as my main on blue. But I also have a troll shaman on red, and I gotta say the racial regen is HUGE while leveling.

Can you explain why? The Wis vs. Sta section of the wiki seems to break down everything mathematically and show that the case for WIS is pretty strong.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Shaman

Your mana pool just doesn't mean that much. We don't do anything equivalent to quad'ing, where you need a big mana pool to finish. For us it's all about mana over time, and wisdom doesn't help with that.

Wanting hp only tangentially has to do with mana over time; regen + canni is our mana regen booster, and while more hp doesn't make canni more effective, it IS important because you'll always almost be missing a large chunk of your hp from canni. You'll also be taking hits regularly, either from slowing or root breaks, and you need to be able to survive those hits despite missing the hp you canni'd.

Note that iksar base stam is terrible.

[iruinedyourday]

If people didn't ask the same questions over and over again we wouldn't have anything to talk about.

yea its kinda the whole point of a 15 year old game ahha

[BlkCamel]

Put as many points as you can at start into stamina, then the rest into wis. This isn't one of two equal answers, it's the right one.

The question of races has two right answers: troll and ogre. Iksar is basically troll but with much, much lower stats and severely limited gear access at the high end until velious. At 60 and with torpor (which is really, really expensive, you don't just automatically get torpor when you hit 60), the troll regen bonus is pretty negligible. There's considerable debate over how valuable frontal stun immunity is at 60, and answers range from very negligible to very important.

But hitting 60 and raising the money for torpor is not easy. It's very likely, even probable, that you won't reach 60. I mean you didn't on your enchanter, right? All the way up until having torpor, it's pretty well agreed upon that racial regen > frontal stun immunity. And as a 60 shaman with torpor, you're gonna be a bad ass mofo with or without frontal stun immunity. The hard part is getting there. That's why I'd roll troll.

Farm up a bit more cash with your enchanter and twink out your shaman a bit. 5/55 rings and a good weapon are pretty game-changing from 1-34.

This really is the best advice, DrKvothe doesn't have one incorrect statement in this post. As others have stated (even as me being Ogre) Troll is best overall Shaman (Raid/Group) and Ogre is best Solo'er/Slower. Unless you have specific goals for your Shaman, should go Troll (Again even though I am a proponent of Ogre).:D

[DevGrousis]

I guess it comes down to gear selection then, because I'll honestly never be a high end raid player. I just have too much other shit going on outside of the game to commit that type of time to a single sitting.

Some people have said that Iksar will be fine with gear once Velious drops. But when do we expect that to happen? Sometime within the next couple of months? or more?

[BlkCamel]

I guess it comes down to gear selection then, because I'll honestly never be a high end raid player. I just have too much other shit going on outside of the game to commit that type of time to a single sitting.

Some people have said that Iksar will be fine with gear once Velious drops. But when do we expect that to happen? Sometime within the next couple of months? or more?

Go iksar, You understand you will be missing out on some clickies and have no end game ambition. Knowing this there is no real risk to going Iksar, the regen bonus and good looks will go a long way with this type of play-style. Iksar get some gear I wish my Ogre could use so don't feel too bad about that. As far as Velious it may not matter when that drops if you feel you will play that casually. Even if Velious is 6 months (realistic time-frame tbh) you will be maybe 40-50 with reasonable play time. Velious shines 55+.:D

[indiscriminate_hater]

I guess it comes down to gear selection then, because I'll honestly never be a high end raid player. I just have too much other shit going on outside of the game to commit that type of time to a single sitting.

Some people have said that Iksar will be fine with gear once Velious drops. But when do we expect that to happen? Sometime within the next couple of months? or more?

i heard next week

[BlkCamel]

i heard next week

From an RnF post, which was debunked as being a year old?:D

[Pint]

Pick iksar if you're new and don't have the money to twink, pick ogre if you want to grind to 60 for torpor and lots of named soloing. Although any good 60 shm can solo without frontal immunity.

[Samoht]

After reading and posting in this thread, I still don't know what race I would personally pick, lol. It's kinda hard to decide. Troll has really good stats, regen, and slam while Iksar have tails and can't wear armor. Ogre stun immunity sounds cool, but I really believe it's overhyped. Best thing about barbs is their hats.

[Samoht]

Don't forget the disciple of innorruuk if you go troll with inny diety. It's almost negligible, but just as useful as Ogre stun.

[Samoht]

yeah, i think that this is the way it goes:

troll beats iksar because slam, armor (iksar can't even wear GEBs), and stats

troll beats ogre and barb because regen

oh yeah, i don't think it's been mentioned that iksar has forage, too. that puts them firmly above barb and probably tied with ogre.

i would roll troll, innoruuk (http://wiki.project1999.com/Regent_Symbol_of_Innoruuk), 25 stam, 5 wis, and pick the face with one eye poked out

[Zoesha]

Troll > Everything

Same regen as an iksar and can wear plate. Don't worry about being too big, you get Shrink spell and can make the potions too.

[Cecily]

I think if I could keep my troll brownie sized all the time, I'd play one.

[Gatorsmash]

Troll > Everything

Same regen as an iksar and can wear plate. Don't worry about being too big, you get Shrink spell and can make the potions too.

This ^

Troll is best hands down. I just started on this server and so happy I went troll

Iksar- no slam. That extra AC won't mean win/lose either way post 25-30. Inny swamp better then FoB (Smaller, more $ and can move into upper guk)

Barb- blind, no regen.

Ogre- no regen. For the few times that frontal slam immunity saves you, that regen has helped you for the first 35+ levels which is a lot of IRL time.

...and a few things people seem to never mention.

- Those Inny necklaces (str debuff, str drain,snare). They really help up to when you get the snare one at lvl 15. I'm using the first two at lvl 14 and that's -25 str combined to that yellow mob I'm solo'ing.

- The lack of downtime due to regen can't be over stated. Once you get to 60?? All that time I'm running by a sitting ogre/barb shaman doesn't make me worried about what's going to happen in 45 lvls

- We are sexy. That big green junk in the trunk? Those druids port me for free

[xexbis0]

If you roll anything but Iksar, just remember to ALWAYS play in first person.

[loramin]

troll beats ogre and barb before you get Torpor because regen


Troll > Everything before you get Torpor

FTFY ;)

Seriously though, I'm not saying Trolls are bad, and statistically speaking I'd imagine the majority of the Shaman on this server never get Torpor. But IF you plan to get 60, get Torpor, and then play that character for a long time afterwards (which, realistically, you're probably only going to do if you are in to raiding) ... then keep in mind that regen pretty much stops being useful at that point.

[curtischoy]

disciple of innorruuk

i would roll troll, innoruuk, 25 stam, 5 wis, and pick the face with one eye poked out

What is this disciple of innorruuk? Why is it important to be innorruuk diety?

BTW I would pick troll.

[Catashe]

What is this disciple of innorruuk? Why is it important to be innorruuk diety?

BTW I would pick troll.

Innoruuk clerics and shaman get a clickie snares.. its kinda weak and sad but better than no snare

[Lojik]

FTFY ;)

Seriously though, I'm not saying Trolls are bad, and statistically speaking I'd imagine the majority of the Shaman on this server never get Torpor. But IF you plan to get 60, get Torpor, and then play that character for a long time afterwards (which, realistically, you're probably only going to do if you are in to raiding) ... then keep in mind that regen pretty much stops being useful at that point.

You won't get torpor if you never get 60, and being a troll will make it easier to get there. Also it's not like regen counters torpor, shaman at 60 will still cast fungal regrowth and wear fungi tunics. Is torpor more important than those things? Yes, but it's not like those things stop being useful.

Also if you go troll/iksar and cazic, very nice item to use 35-54 or so http://wiki.project1999.com/Initiate_Symbol_of_Cazic_Thule, can also make good use of it through 60 if you're creative.

[Samoht]

What is this disciple of innorruuk? Why is it important to be innorruuk diety?

BTW I would pick troll.

click my link in the post you quoted

[Ezalor]

i noticed a huge difference in being able to channel a root while tanking a mob on an ogre shaman vs a troll shaman

you could still easily root as a troll, just a little more annoying

just my 2 cents

[Jarnauga]

Cool people play barbarians.

[maskedmelon]

But the point is, when you compare it to other race's abilities, at level 60/with Torpor no one else has anything better.

So it's not that the Ogre's racial is anything that great, it's just better than everything else (at 60/with Torpor).

This is the most important point. Aside from the facials that Loras pointed out, racial choice doesn't matter.

The only other important consideration is vanity. Barbarians are the only non-ugly shaman race and even they struggle in that regard :/

[loramin]

The only other important consideration is vanity. Barbarians are the only non-ugly shaman race and even some of them struggle in that regard :/

FTFY.

Big beautiful bear hat for the win!

Cool people play barbarians.

[Sage Truthbearer]

Here's another thing to consider on the vanity side of things, the Velious spell Form of the Great Bear (http://wiki.project1999.com/Form_of_the_Great_Bear).

Trolls and Iksars get a black kodiak bear.
Barbarians get a white polar bear.
Ogres get a rather dull looking brown bear.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/scowls/Shammysquad.jpg

[DrKvothe]

Pre-torpor, troll is best. Post-torpor, all are so OP that race won't make a difference. I'd rather make the hardest part of the game easier than be technically but not noticeably better when I'm already a God.

[Daldaen]

Tempted to reroll my Iksar Shaman as a Barbarian in light of Polar Bearness...

[Ele]

Tempted to reroll my Iksar Shaman as a Barbarian in light of Polar Bearness...

This buff brought to you by Coca-Cola(R).

[arsenalpow]

Race choice doesn't provide a bonus to skill piloting the class. The best shaman I've ever played with is an iksar. Who needs a JBB anyways.

[Ele]

Who needs a JBB anyways.

Lazy people.

[loramin]

Who needs a JBB anyways.

Me! Say what you will about it, the JBB is the best way for any epic-less shaman to level from 45-60.

If you do have an epic though the JBB stops being nearly as important of course.

[Daldaen]

Me! Say what you will about it, the JBB is the best way for any epic-less shaman to level from 45-60.

If you do have an epic though the JBB stops being nearly as important of course.

Why be epicless?!?

[maskedmelon]

Here's another thing to consider on the vanity side of things, the Velious spell Form of the Great Bear (http://wiki.project1999.com/Form_of_the_Great_Bear).

Trolls and Iksars get a black kodiak bear.
Barbarians get a white polar bear.
Ogres get a rather dull looking brown bear.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/scowls/Shammysquad.jpg

Omg I never knew this ^^ polar bear ftw!

[loramin]

Why be epicless?!?

Because you're a programmer who lives on the Left Coast and works until 6:30, so the earliest you can get online is 7:00pm PST (when it's too late to raid) :( Plus my weekends tend to be busy IRL, so even though I've been in three different guilds I've only managed to make it to a handful of Fear raids (and I've never gotten a tear from any of them).

Someday ...

[Conky]

iksar, unless you wanna be a big ass scratching fat ass.

[slappytwotoes]

As a barb 60 sham, I can say the only time I've EVER wanted to be an ogre was in lower guk tanking 10ish lvl 35-40 mobs at 60 DSpot PLing people.

As an ogre, you stand in a wall and lol while toporing, as a barb you just have to try twice usually.

At 60 soloing WW dragons on beta? It's identical, zero difference, nada, none, zilch.

Maybe I would of died one more time in literally ever on p1999 being barb compared to ogre.

Clearly you should play a troll. Female bewbs saggier than octomom

[Rodcet]

I myself rolled an Ogre, as I love Ogres, but I hate giving up regen. If I had rolled a troll/iksar, I would be thinking the same thing about stun resist though.

That being said, does regen really do that little once you have torpor? Would there ever be a scenario where a troll would have to torpor one less time compared to an ogre/barbarian in a group situation? I have a strong feeling the answer is no, but I'm curious either way.

In the end, I usually hear that the only racial that makes any difference is the stun resist. That, or the small AC bonus from Iksar (despite the fact that they lose out on other things). I used to play on Rallos Zek, so believe me... I love any extra regen I can get. But Torpor, if you can afford it eventually, really seems like it would make the extra regen pointless, with stun resist being the only racial that even helps a tiny amount in the end.


-Edit-
Also, I feel that most people who claim the stun resist doesn't do much usually do not play ogres. Those that are 100% for ogres seem to not be able to live without the stun resist. Trust me, if you've played NOTHING but ogres, you notice the stuns. It's so odd tanking something only to end up getting stunned on a non-ogre race. It's the only thing I truly loved about AAs. Some classes got stun resist as an AA, and it opened up so many other choices... Iksar Warrior... mmmm.

[loramin]

That being said, does regen really do that little once you have torpor?

That's sort of a subjective question, but a Troll standing regens 12HP a tick. A Troll (or any Shaman) with Torpor on them regens 300 per tick. That should give you some idea.

[Rodcet]

That's sort of a subjective question, but a Troll standing regens 12HP a tick. A Troll (or any Shaman) with Torpor on them regens 300 per tick. That should give you some idea.

So, 120 HP per minute vs 40 HP per minute, standing, at 60. I can see why, once you have torpor, an extra 80 HP per minute wouldn't do a whole lot. Over time, possibly, but I think torpor in a group situation should be topping you off. Never played a high-end shaman, so I dunno.

[Greasemonkey83]

If you're thinking 60, then its Ogre, period.

[iruinedyourday]

If you're thinking 60, then its Ogre, period.

wrong. If you're thinking Frontal stun is the most important to me then its ogre, period.

[iruinedyourday]

I will concede that arguably ogre is the best class for shaman, because you dont get obnoxious tells from noobs that try to convince otherwise every time you're camping something.

[Malrubius]

FSI is pretty much a waste since it does nothing to keep your spells from being interrupted. I play an Ogre and I know this to be true.

On top of that, you are a Shaman. If you don't have time to cast a spell, eat lunch, take the dog for a walk, between mob swings, then you are doing it wrong anyway.

Really, anybody pointing to FSI as some game-breaking reason to play an Ogre is in denial. Ogres are cool though, so just admit that that is the reason you rolled one and move on. :)

[Synthlol]

FSI is pretty much a waste since it does nothing to keep your spells from being interrupted. I play an Ogre and I know this to be true.

On top of that, you are a Shaman. If you don't have time to cast a spell, eat lunch, take the dog for a walk, between mob swings, then you are doing it wrong anyway.

Really, anybody pointing to FSI as some game-breaking reason to play an Ogre is in denial. Ogres are cool though, so just admit that that is the reason you rolled one and move on. :)

How do you know that when you're getting interrupted, it's because of bash damage that didn't stun you?

Serious question.

[Timelord]

Ok, I decided I'm going with the Iksar. Any starting stat ideas, aside from full on WIS ( referring to Timelord )

The reasons you go full wisdom is because it helps at lower levels more then hp does especially since you can regen hp faster then mana. Also when Velious hits and you can just buff up your stamina to the cap, you will rather have spent those points to get you near the wisdom cap. I think its like 250 or 255. With avatar its really easy to reach max stamina.

[Malrubius]

The reasons you go full wisdom is because it helps at lower levels more then hp does especially since you can regen hp faster then mana. Also when Velious hits and you can just buff up your stamina to the cap, you will rather have spent those points to get you near the wisdom cap. I think its like 250 or 255. With avatar its really easy to reach max stamina.

Put another way, WIS is the only base stat (that you care about) that you can't buff through the roof later on.

That's also why WIS is the most important stat to look at in Shammy equipment (the others being Mana, which you likewise can't self-buff, and Resists which buffs alone won't make super-high).

[Darkatar]

The reasons you go full wisdom is because it helps at lower levels more then hp does especially since you can regen hp faster then mana. Also when Velious hits and you can just buff up your stamina to the cap, you will rather have spent those points to get you near the wisdom cap. I think its like 250 or 255. With avatar its really easy to reach max stamina.

Avatar: 1 : Increase STR, AGI, DEX and ATK by 100 (not stam)

As an ogre sham, with med-high end gear that dumped STAM primary and 5 to wis, I'm sitting at 221ish stam and 212 wis in mana capacity gear(with HP rings), with self+enc buffs. A few verrious pieces (and form of the great bear +10 wis/2hpreg buff) will cap my missing 43 wis.

[Synthlol]

How do you know that when you're getting interrupted, it's because of bash damage that didn't stun you?

Serious question.

Still interested in this answer, please. Very curious.

[Darkatar]

Still interested in this answer, please. Very curious.

Not sure if I'm reading the question correctly.

If you are bashed while casting (as a non-ogre) you will instantly fail your spell and be stunned a moment (similar to ducking the spell)

If you are bashed while casting (as ogre) you will continue to attempt the cast, as if you had taken regular melee hits, while receiving no stun

Edit: You still need to successfully channel after being bashed as an ogre. If your back is against the wall chances are you won't get melee pushed enough for it to be a serious issue unless you're underwater or something

[Synthlol]

Frontal Stun Immunity is pretty much a waste since it does nothing to keep your spells from being interrupted. I play an Ogre and I know this to be true.


Here it is claimed that although ogres are immune to the stun when bashed in the face, a landed bash still causes 100% chance of spell interrupt.

In other words, he claims that even if it didn't have a stun component, bash would stop spell casts every time it lands.

I'd like to know how he knows this.

[Darkatar]

Here it is claimed that although ogres are immune to the stun when bashed in the face, a landed bash still causes 100% chance of spell interrupt.

In other words, he claims that even if it didn't have a stun component, bash would stop spell casts every time it lands.

I'd like to know how he knows this.

I'm asssuming he played an ogre to level 10 and had 5 skill in channeling, and failed his spell every time he got bashed because his channeling sucked.

I'm often able to cast through 2-3 unslowed mobs, even without my back on the wall.

[Synthlol]

I'm asssuming he played an ogre to level 10 and had 5 skill in channeling, and failed his spell every time he got bashed because his channeling sucked.

I'm often able to cast through 2-3 unslowed mobs, even without my back on the wall.

As suspected, Malrubius has no idea what he is talking about, and people who say FSI is meaningless are simply trying to rationalize their lack of it.

Thank you Urrsa.

[Darkatar]

My pleasure.

Here's a few samples:

________________________
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:12 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:12 2014] You haven't recovered yet...
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:14 2014] An ire ghast bashes YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:14 2014] An ire ghast hits YOU for 54 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:16 2014] You resist the Disease Cloud spell!
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:18 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:18 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:01 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:05 2014] A scorn banshee hits YOU for 100 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:06 2014] A scorn banshee bashes YOU for 39 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:07 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:07 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:38 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:41 2014] You have healed Ginfizzie for 300 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:41 2014] Cleric of Innoruuk bashes YOU for 46 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:44 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:44 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:03 2014] You begin casting Malo.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:03 2014] King Tranix pet hits YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] King Tranix pet bashes YOU for 14 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] You feel your lifeforce drain away. You have taken 27 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 59 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:05 2014] King Tranix bashes YOU for 46 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 124 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 41 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix pet tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:08 2014] Urrsa has healed you for 300 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:08 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:42 2014] You begin casting Paralyzing Earth.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior bashes YOU for 36 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Your Paralyzing Earth spell has worn off.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior hits YOU for 74 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior kicks YOU for 31 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior hits YOU for 49 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:45 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
________________________
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] You begin casting Torpor.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 100 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] An ire ghast bashes YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:42 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 64 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] A spite golem pet bites YOU for 35 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 128 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 103 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 72 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk bashes YOU for 54 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] A loathling lich slices YOU for 132 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] You resist the Gravity Flux spell!
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] A spite golem pet bites YOU for 29 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 111 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] You fall into a state of torpor.
_______________________
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:10 2015] You begin casting Torpor.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:11 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:11 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 128 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav kicks YOU for 49 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 200 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:14 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 144 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:14 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 176 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:16 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 160 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:16 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:17 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:17 2015] You fall into a state of torpor.
_______________________
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You begin casting Enstill.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You haven't recovered yet...
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You can't use that command right now...
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A shin ghoul knight bashes YOU for 7 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] Your legs feel weak.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A shin ghoul knight tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A greater ice bones bashes YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A greater ice bones bashes YOU for 15 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:10 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
_______________________

Edit: It's worth noting any of these regular melee attacks could have also been stuns (kicks too)

[Clark]

Ogre. Troll isn't as bad PVE, however, Troll is horrible for pvp with the terrible innate fire resist.

[Darkatar]

Ogre. Troll isn't as bad PVE, however, Troll is horrible for pvp with the terrible innate fire resist.

I've played troll and ogre to >lv50 and will never roll a troll or iksar shaman for PVE. the regen seems frivolous when you can torp for 300/tic and gain mana. (granted that is late-game, but I enjoy the late-game)

[Clark]

For sure Torpor is where it's at. If Ogre wasn't a choice though I'd pick Troll.

[BlkCamel]

My pleasure.

Here's a few samples:

________________________
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:12 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:12 2014] You haven't recovered yet...
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:14 2014] An ire ghast bashes YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:14 2014] An ire ghast hits YOU for 54 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:16 2014] You resist the Disease Cloud spell!
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:18 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:18 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:01 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:05 2014] A scorn banshee hits YOU for 100 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:06 2014] A scorn banshee bashes YOU for 39 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:07 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:07 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:38 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:41 2014] You have healed Ginfizzie for 300 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:41 2014] Cleric of Innoruuk bashes YOU for 46 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:44 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:44 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:03 2014] You begin casting Malo.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:03 2014] King Tranix pet hits YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] King Tranix pet bashes YOU for 14 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] You feel your lifeforce drain away. You have taken 27 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 59 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:05 2014] King Tranix bashes YOU for 46 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 124 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 41 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix pet tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:08 2014] Urrsa has healed you for 300 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:08 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:42 2014] You begin casting Paralyzing Earth.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior bashes YOU for 36 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Your Paralyzing Earth spell has worn off.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior hits YOU for 74 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior kicks YOU for 31 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior hits YOU for 49 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:45 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
________________________
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] You begin casting Torpor.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 100 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] An ire ghast bashes YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:42 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 64 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] A spite golem pet bites YOU for 35 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 128 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 103 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 72 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk bashes YOU for 54 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] A loathling lich slices YOU for 132 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] You resist the Gravity Flux spell!
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] A spite golem pet bites YOU for 29 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 111 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] You fall into a state of torpor.
_______________________
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:10 2015] You begin casting Torpor.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:11 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:11 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 128 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav kicks YOU for 49 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 200 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:14 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 144 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:14 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 176 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:16 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 160 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:16 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:17 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:17 2015] You fall into a state of torpor.
_______________________
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You begin casting Enstill.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You haven't recovered yet...
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You can't use that command right now...
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A shin ghoul knight bashes YOU for 7 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] Your legs feel weak.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A shin ghoul knight tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A greater ice bones bashes YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A greater ice bones bashes YOU for 15 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:10 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
_______________________

Edit: It's worth noting any of these regular melee attacks could have also been stuns (kicks too)

And this why I chose ogre on p99 when I was a barb on live. Notice darkatar gets bashed 2 or 3 times after the spell was cast and still gets the spell off on top of the normal melee. Those that don't play ogre just don't understand the difference. :D

[skorge]

Troll. This is from a guy who has owned a level 60 barb, ogre and troll shaman here on P99.

From my post a year ago:

I guess it depends on the player. As a 60 ogre shaman I've only had frontal stun immunity put to use a very small handful of times.

I personally value regen higher, because the regen is ALWAYS in effect. During the course of your ogre's playtime, the frontal stun immunity is being put to use about 0.01% of your playtime.

Even while playing on the Red server did I rarely see my frontal stun immunity put to use (one time I got a gate off vs 3 players because of it, wow lol).

Remember, a troll won the Best of the Best here. Don't under estimate regen.

[Rodcet]

Troll. This is from a guy who has owned a level 60 barb, ogre and troll shaman here on P99.

From my post a year ago:

I guess it depends on the player. As a 60 ogre shaman I've only had frontal stun immunity put to use a very small handful of times.

I personally value regen higher, because the regen is ALWAYS in effect. During the course of your ogre's playtime, the frontal stun immunity is being put to use about 0.01% of your playtime.

Even while playing on the Red server did I rarely see my frontal stun immunity put to use (one time I got a gate off vs 3 players because of it, wow lol).

Remember, a troll won the Best of the Best here. Don't under estimate regen.



I would bet that the person who won best of the best would've won if he were an ogre as well.

[theaetatus]

Stun immunity is just so good that you'd be foolish to pick anything other than Ogre if you're min/maxing. When the shit hits the fan or you're breaking a camp, stun immunity saves you so many more hp than 1 hp/tick (up to 50) or 4-7 hp/tick (51-59) ever will.

You should min/max for difficult situations, not easy ones. Sure, if you're sitting back buffing people and having an easy time, that extra 70ish hp per minute will be a slight advantage but these aren't the situations to min/max for.

Ogre all the way unless you really can't handle the character models.

[phro]

Everyone says ogre all the way as if the entire play experience can be boiled down to a few moments where you're tanking some hits.

Regen is so incredibly huge when you factor in time and the fact that it is always in effect. Canni effectively makes it permanent breeze that stacks with clarity and all your other available mana regen.

Over the course of any moderately leveled character the one with regen will have healed millions and millions of HP for free that you didn't have. With Canni how many more spells will have been able to cast over the same play time? You don't think one of those hundreds of thousands of HPs or one of those single spells will save me or my friends as much as not getting stunned in one situation where shit is already hitting the fan?

[maskedmelon]

While I understand the benefits of both FSI and racial regen, I think this thread fails to address the fact that anything other than barbarian will suffer irreparable damage to their self esteem due the likely housands of hours spent ugly ^^

[Brut]

If your class can pick Ogre as race, should be Ogre. /nod

[Hawala]

Well, my two cents...

I'm an ogre and I went ALL AC. I use Totemic/JB/Targishin's Bone Mask etc. Key items I bought: FBSS, JBB, Granite Face Grinder, of course buy a Fungi Tunic if you can.

Even though my wisdom isn't great, I can still solo meleeing at lvl 50.


Buff yourself and your pet up, chloro, haste, stats, and talisman. Slow the mob, don't even bother dotting. Melee to death.

If you run low on HP, root it and rub your JBB.


Alternatively, spam rub your JBB in melee range, when you are between casts you'll hit for 120. In this case, ditch the FBSS and get a belt with more AC on it because you'll only be swinging your hammer every 8 seconds.

Another idea I've toyed around with is rerolling a Barbarian, using the same tactics and equipping a Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer for the proc. In this case rubbing your JBB and relying on the exact same proc from your hammer.

[loramin]

Everyone says ogre all the way as if the entire play experience can be boiled down to a few moments where you're tanking some hits.

Those "few moments" are the most important fights in many Shaman's lives.

When you are level 60 with Torpor, and you want to solo something beefy (like say some Velious content), regen barely helps, but front stun immunity does.

Since "level 60 with Torpor soloing baddass stuff" is the pinnacle of many Shaman's aspirations, Ogre is popular because at that very end stage the Ogre racial is useful and the Troll/Iksar racial isn't. It has nothing to do with which one can be used more often, and everything to do with having the most useful ability at the "pinnacle" moments.

Now, personally I don't buy that argument (as evidenced by my polar bear hat), but I'm just saying, you can't dismiss Ogre as being about "a few moments" because there's a huge difference between the easy fight against a blue when you are leveling and the insanely hard fight that you do at the very end of your career.

[theaetatus]

Over the course of any moderately leveled character the one with regen will have healed millions and millions of HP for free that you didn't have. fan?

Considering from 1-50 you're only gaining 10-40 hp per minute at most this is just hyperbole.

You shouldn't be min/maxing for the easy stuff where regen helps, you should min/max for the tough stuff like breaking a camp solo or when your group suddenly gets a ton of adds. This is when bash immunity will save you and your group.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Vah Shir shamans are the best, imo, because it means you're in Luclin and the game is infinitely more fun from Luclin until PoP.

[loramin]

I think this thread fails to address the fact that anything other than barbarian will suffer irreparable damage to their self esteem due the likely housands of hours spent ugly ^^
Now there's an argument I can get behind. And then with Polar Bear form in Velious ...


Another idea I've toyed around with is rerolling a Barbarian, using the same tactics and equipping a Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer for the proc. In this case rubbing your JBB and relying on the exact same proc from your hammer.

I've done just that, and while it's fun I can promise the BSH is underwhelming. Not that it sucks, but when you combine it with the JBB ... well the JBB gives you like 6-10 Winter's Roars per fight (depending on what you fight) while the BSH gives maybe 1-2. So the BSH is still useful, but at best its 1/5 as useful as the JBB.

IMHO the BSH is way cooler to have from 30 to 45, as those 1-2 Winter's Roars have a much bigger effect at those levels (and you don't have the JBB yet to make it seem inferior). It's also not a bad weapon from 1-30 either, if you're just looking for a good twink weapon for a Barb shaman.

[loramin]

Vah Shir shamans are the best, imo, because it means you're in Luclin and the game is infinitely more fun from Luclin until PoP.

LOL what racials did the Vah Shir even get? I vaguely remember something about being able to fall a bit and not get hurt; was there anything else?

[Erydan Ouragan]

LOL what racials did the Vah Shir even get? I vaguely remember something about being able to fall a bit and not get hurt; was there anything else?

Apart from looking fantastic and be considered a "good" race? No.

They were considered a large race too, so kitties ate a lot of kibbles :/

EDIT: They can't slam either, but Luclin.

[DrKvothe]

HP regen doesn't just help with "easy" situations pre-60, it helps with hard ones. Try solo'ing HS North or SolB imps without any racial regen or fungi; you're going to have a really tough time keeping your mana up to break rooms and keep up with spawns. Troll regen is a huge blessing for things like this.

Stop marginalizing the difficulty of getting to 60 and buying torpor. It's not easy and most people never get there. Once you do get there, there's not a single torpor shaman on this server that doesn't already feel like a god, and if they're not able to solo WW dragons on beta it's because of tactics and skill, not racial bonus.

[iruinedyourday]

HP regen doesn't just help with "easy" situations pre-60, it helps with hard ones. Try solo'ing HS North or SolB imps without any racial regen or fungi; you're going to have a really tough time keeping your mana up to break rooms and keep up with spawns. Troll regen is a huge blessing for things like this.

Stop marginalizing the difficulty of getting to 60 and buying torpor. It's not easy and most people never get there. Once you do get there, there's not a single torpor shaman on this server that doesn't already feel like a god, and if they're not able to solo WW dragons on beta it's because of tactics and skill, not racial bonus.

Getting to 60 with a shaman is Eeeeeeeeez

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

Getting to 60 with a shaman is Eeeeeeeeez

Huehuehue

[theaetatus]

HP regen doesn't just help with "easy" situations pre-60, it helps with hard ones. Try solo'ing HS North or SolB imps without any racial regen or fungi; you're going to have a really tough time keeping your mana up to break rooms and keep up with spawns. Troll regen is a huge blessing for things like this.

Yeah, I'm sure being able to cast 1 extra turgur's roughly every 6 minutes really makes the difference.

Also, that's being optimistic... When you consider that having to recast a spell after a bash and taking 1 or 2 more rounds of melee from 1 or 2 mobs in HS also completely undoes about 10 minutes of regen bonus, frontal stun immunity particularly shines in places like HS.

P.S. I must have missed the patch where only trolls can use fungi.

[kagrobb]

Those "few moments" are the most important fights in many Shaman's lives.

When you are level 60 with Torpor, and you want to solo something beefy (like say some Velious content), regen barely helps, but front stun immunity does.

Since "level 60 with Torpor soloing baddass stuff" is the pinnacle of many Shaman's aspirations, Ogre is popular because at that very end stage the Ogre racial is useful and the Troll/Iksar racial isn't. It has nothing to do with which one can be used more often, and everything to do with having the most useful ability at the "pinnacle" moments.

Now, personally I don't buy that argument (as evidenced by my polar bear hat), but I'm just saying, you can't dismiss Ogre as being about "a few moments" because there's a huge difference between the easy fight against a blue when you are leveling and the insanely hard fight that you do at the very end of your career.


This post begins to touch the surface of the ogre solo ability of difficult targets at the level 60. On live I played a shm and during the velious era in group/thurg quest/epic click I could and did solo guardian wurms outside of VP ent for spells with my crappy shm pet. I have said this before but was called a liar by other shaman. root the mob malo the mob slow it, then cannit to full if you need to reslow/cripple click epic dot dot dot reroot. at this point you will start to get summoned you can either try to keep pet up or just back up since it takes a few seconds to get resummoned. Root slow rot canni topor until you have killed the mob.

Tedious yes, duo with sk or pally is far easier and far faster, but this is doable if you are bored enough or want to try to grind out some plat for spells. The caveat is that you need topor already to do this since no other heal line is going to keep this going.

Being able to tank a mob in the face as you recast slow or canni or topor yourself is worth its weight in gold at any level not just 60. So many times even as a lowbie shm it has saved me from losing spell casting and finished that slow or healed through a beatdown by a mob. Start thinking about slows on ae ramp mobs and having to bellycast on everything. :D

*edit* got a ton of necro spells for the guild necros before i got my avatard spell on live

[iruinedyourday]

Huehuehue


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/EQ/EoV.JPG

[Synthlol]

What race is the best choice for shammy?

Here's a few samples:

________________________
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:12 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:12 2014] You haven't recovered yet...
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:14 2014] An ire ghast bashes YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:14 2014] An ire ghast hits YOU for 54 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:16 2014] You resist the Disease Cloud spell!
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:18 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 17:44:18 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:01 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:05 2014] A scorn banshee hits YOU for 100 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:06 2014] A scorn banshee bashes YOU for 39 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:07 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 17:58:07 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:38 2014] You begin casting Torpor.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:41 2014] You have healed Ginfizzie for 300 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:41 2014] Cleric of Innoruuk bashes YOU for 46 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:44 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Tue Dec 30 18:10:44 2014] You fall into a state of torpor.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:03 2014] You begin casting Malo.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:03 2014] King Tranix pet hits YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] King Tranix pet bashes YOU for 14 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] You feel your lifeforce drain away. You have taken 27 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:04 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 59 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:05 2014] King Tranix bashes YOU for 46 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 124 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix hits YOU for 41 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:06 2014] King Tranix pet tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:08 2014] Urrsa has healed you for 300 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:09:08 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
________________________
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:42 2014] You begin casting Paralyzing Earth.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior bashes YOU for 36 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Your Paralyzing Earth spell has worn off.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior hits YOU for 74 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior kicks YOU for 31 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:44 2014] Fire giant warrior hits YOU for 49 points of damage.
[Tue Dec 30 19:11:45 2014] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
________________________
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] You begin casting Torpor.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 100 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:41 2015] An ire ghast bashes YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:42 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 64 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] A spite golem pet bites YOU for 35 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 128 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 103 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk hits YOU for 72 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:44 2015] Cleric of Innoruuk bashes YOU for 54 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 32 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] A loathling lich slices YOU for 132 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] You resist the Gravity Flux spell!
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:45 2015] A spite golem pet bites YOU for 29 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] An ire ghast hits YOU for 111 points of damage.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Sat Jan 31 00:13:47 2015] You fall into a state of torpor.
_______________________
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:10 2015] You begin casting Torpor.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:11 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:11 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 128 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav kicks YOU for 49 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 200 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:12 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:14 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 144 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:14 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 176 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:16 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 160 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:16 2015] Brigadier G`tav slashes YOU for 192 points of damage.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:17 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
[Sat Feb 28 13:16:17 2015] You fall into a state of torpor.
_______________________
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You begin casting Enstill.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You haven't recovered yet...
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:08 2015] You can't use that command right now...
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A shin ghoul knight bashes YOU for 7 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] Your legs feel weak.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A shin ghoul knight tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A greater ice bones bashes YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:09 2015] A greater ice bones bashes YOU for 15 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 04 16:51:10 2015] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
_______________________



Also, that's being optimistic... When you consider that having to recast a spell after a bash and taking 1 or 2 more rounds of melee from 1 or 2 mobs in HS also completely undoes about 10 minutes of regen bonus, frontal stun immunity particularly shines in places like HS.

Darkatar and theaetatus have put the final nails in the coffin with these posts. Anyone who claims that racial regen makes for a better shaman than frontal stun immunity has no credibility on the subject.

/thread

Edit: TL;DR - Ogre

[loramin]

Anyone who claims that racial regen makes for a better shaman (at level 60 with Torpor) than frontal stun immunity has no credibility on the subject.

FTFY. Even with those logs I'm still pretty sure that racial regen > frontal stun immunity for a level 30 shaman.

[Samoht]

FTFY. Even with those logs I'm still pretty sure that racial regen > frontal stun immunity for a level 30 shaman.

that's because it is. common player will never see 60, much less torpor. ogre fanbois are already ogres trying to justify their choice (confirmation bias). anybody that will never make it to 60 is ok rolling any race they choose, but probably best off picking troll.

[Bristlebaner]

If shrink worked everywhere then ogre > all.

[kagrobb]

that's because it is. common player will never see 60, much less torpor. ogre fanbois are already ogres trying to justify their choice (confirmation bias). anybody that will never make it to 60 is ok rolling any race they choose, but probably best off picking troll.


Tanking the mob is the face and still casting your slow/root/dot/debuff works at any and all levels. Racial regen is nice and wonderful at lower levels, but as you level up you get diminished returns from regen. You regen less of the damage % you take per hit at higher levels. Also if you are talking about regening while sitting versus standing and using canni to regen mana and then heal yourself up with a spell line other than topor say chloroblast you will still are going to be full hp/mana than just siting and regening mana and hp at the same time regardless of race/fungi use.

Don't get me wrong troll/isky are great and pre regen spell they are more potent but as soon as shaman get that line and can self ast regen the playing field in the hp regen dept gets a little more level. I would say that it is easier to level up at the lower levels for troll/isky for sure, but that advantage is less noticeable at higher levels.

Oh and using the JBB should not be a deciding factor for not picking the isky shaman since all shaman get that spell and it just gives a longer cast time nuke, but clicking the Kunark BP for bramblecoat should be though since that is a spell that does not appear in the the shaman spell lineup and gives a small ac boost and dmg shield.

[loramin]

Oh and using the JBB should not be a deciding factor for not picking the isky shaman since all shaman get that spell and it just gives a longer cast time nuke

Wow, spoken like someone who's never had a JBB. There is a HUGE difference between the Winter's Roar a Shaman can cast, and the one the JBB can cast, and that difference is mana. With a JBB I can kill a mob using only slow, or using only a few roots, or even using only my pet (if the mob is low enough that it won't kill dogdog).

Good luck killing anything using only a single slow's worth of mana without a JBB (or epic).

[DrKvothe]

Tanking the mob is the face and still casting your slow/root/dot/debuff works at any and all levels. Racial regen is nice and wonderful at lower levels, but as you level up you get diminished returns from regen. You regen less of the damage % you take per hit at higher levels. Also if you are talking about regening while sitting versus standing and using canni to regen mana and then heal yourself up with a spell line other than topor say chloroblast you will still are going to be full hp/mana than just siting and regening mana and hp at the same time regardless of race/fungi use.

Don't get me wrong troll/isky are great and pre regen spell they are more potent but as soon as shaman get that line and can self ast regen the playing field in the hp regen dept gets a little more level. I would say that it is easier to level up at the lower levels for troll/isky for sure, but that advantage is less noticeable at higher levels.

Oh and using the JBB should not be a deciding factor for not picking the isky shaman since all shaman get that spell and it just gives a longer cast time nuke, but clicking the Kunark BP for bramblecoat should be though since that is a spell that does not appear in the the shaman spell lineup and gives a small ac boost and dmg shield.

Lots wrong with this post. Pretty much all of it.

[iruinedyourday]

Based on these threads I recomend not making a shaman at all, so you can just avoid all this douchbaggrry

[kagrobb]

Wow, spoken like someone who's never had a JBB. There is a HUGE difference between the Winter's Roar a Shaman can cast, and the one the JBB can cast, and that difference is mana. With a JBB I can kill a mob using only slow, or using only a few roots, or even using only my pet (if the mob is low enough that it won't kill dogdog).

Good luck killing anything using only a single slow's worth of mana without a JBB (or epic).


you took that the wrong way. I said that should not be the decciding fector since we get that spell, we do not get bramblecoat spell line ever ... jbb is and has always been insanely nice for nuking things sans mana.

[loramin]

I said that should not be the decciding fector since we get that spell, we do not get bramblecoat spell line ever ... jbb is and has always been insanely nice for nuking things sans mana.

I'd say being able to kill mobs for 0 mana (or one slow's worth of mana for a harder mobs) absolutely should be a "decciding fector". The fact that we get the same spell for mana has absolutely nothing to do with it, because the value of the JBB is in the free damage part, not the "be able to cast a specific Shaman spell" part.

[phro]

Those "few moments" are the most important fights in many Shaman's lives.

When you are level 60 with Torpor, and you want to solo something beefy (like say some Velious content), regen barely helps, but front stun immunity does.

Since "level 60 with Torpor soloing baddass stuff" is the pinnacle of many Shaman's aspirations, Ogre is popular because at that very end stage the Ogre racial is useful and the Troll/Iksar racial isn't. It has nothing to do with which one can be used more often, and everything to do with having the most useful ability at the "pinnacle" moments.

Now, personally I don't buy that argument (as evidenced by my polar bear hat), but I'm just saying, you can't dismiss Ogre as being about "a few moments" because there's a huge difference between the easy fight against a blue when you are leveling and the insanely hard fight that you do at the very end of your career.

You dismissed my advice to not base your choice on a "few moments" by citing an incredibly unlikely endgame for almost all people who would be asking themselves which race shaman to be.

Pick your class based on leveling to 60, buying a spell for 100k plat, and raiding the gear to get you to a point where your stun immunity advantage gives you a special achievement text in a video game OOOOOOORRRRRR you can regen a bunch of HPs 100% of the time you play no matter what you end up doing.

[Ezalor]

You dismissed my advice to not base your choice on a "few moments" by citing an incredibly unlikely endgame for almost all people who would be asking themselves which race shaman to be.

troll regen is 100% useless until "highly unlikely endgame"

look at the graph below. it doesnt even really kick in until lvl 51+

if i had to choose if i want frontal stun 1-60 or slightly better regen 51+ it's a no brainer

http://i.imgur.com/PlWqoQB.png

[phro]

Double or better 100% of the time. Ogre apologetics are strong.

Fewer than 1% of shaman that get made will solo anything that matters. 100% of the Iksar and Trolls are going to regen.

Having a guild, the knowledge, the time, and the ability to be an epic soloing shaman? Great, you know you NEED to be ogre so reroll or pick that from the outset. Literally EVERYONE else benefits more from the regen.

[iruinedyourday]

Double or better 100% of the time. Ogre apologetics are strong.

Fewer than 1% of shaman that get made will solo anything that matters. 100% of the Iksar and Trolls are going to regen.

Having a guild, the knowledge, the time, and the ability to be an epic soloing shaman? Great, you know you NEED to be ogre so reroll or pick that from the outset. Literally EVERYONE else benefits more from the regen.

haha this is whats so funny about you ogre fans, you are so deluted and unskilled in life that you think you NEED to be anyything to do endgame.

Could you please enlighten me and the rest of the game as to which mobs can be killed by an Ogre that cannot by another shaman race? Just name one.

[Synthlol]

haha this is whats so funny about you ogre fans, you are so deluted and unskilled in life that you think you NEED to be anyything to do endgame.

Could you please enlighten me and the rest of the game as to which mobs can be killed by an Ogre that cannot by another shaman race? Just name one.

Rolling ogre doesn't make encounters possible, it makes them easier than the alternatives do.

[rollin5k]

Shaman is the world of Warcraft of everquest

[DevGrousis]

I'm not saying that i've proven or disproven any bit of this really good discussion, but I just dinged 15 on my Iksar Sham, and you know how many times i've been stunned out of a spell? 4 times. SO FAR (and i know i havent gone very far at all) frontal stun immunity would be useless for me. meanwhile, regenning twice as fast has litterally allowed me to have half the downtime. Which IMO, as a solo grinder that's not twinked, has been a massive advantage.

[eisley]

consider the initiate necks. i wish i learned of the iksar one earlier, chain casting undead fear at 2 sec with no recast is... pretty powerful in some situations, such as splitting certain rooms, etc.

[theaetatus]

Double or better 100% of the time. Ogre apologetics are strong.

Fewer than 1% of shaman that get made will solo anything that matters. 100% of the Iksar and Trolls are going to regen.

Having a guild, the knowledge, the time, and the ability to be an epic soloing shaman? Great, you know you NEED to be ogre so reroll or pick that from the outset. Literally EVERYONE else benefits more from the regen.

If you're a shaman that's never going to get hit and never going to solo anything, sure. If you want to solo stuff that's vaguely difficult at any level or break a camp, the stun immunity will be much more useful.

Regen is useful when you're doing easy stuff, frontal stun immunity is better when you're doing difficult stuff. I know which situation I prefer to min/max for.

[eqgmrdbz]

Why i chose Barb on live, and why i chose it again on P99, yes the other races have neat bonuses, but they also have huge draw backs.

Ogres do not get stunned, but you are big and hard to maneuver in tight spaces, you are also hated in good cities, so limited banking options, you can prolly solo best with Ogre. 5% Xp penalty more than Barbs.

Trolls you regen faster, but you are also big and hard to maneuver in tight spaces like Ogre. Also hated in good cities, limited banking options. Less downtime, but also 10% Xp penalty more than Barbs.

Iksar you regen faster, but are hated everywhere, very limited banking. AC bonus, but limited gear options compared to the other races. Less downtime, but again 10% Xp penalty compared to Barbs.

Yes at 60 Barbs do not have the race bonuses, but at 60 those bonuses are less of a factor. Play what you like, i prefer Barbs because its easier i guess.

[webrunner5]

Ogre or go home. Why make a toon that is lesser for your needs. A Shaman is one of the FEW classes that can solo in Veloius. You will need all the help you can get in it. And a Ogre is that extra help to maybe save your butt. :p

[Daldaen]

Ogre or go home. Why make a toon that is lesser for your needs. A Shaman is one of the FEW classes that can solo in Veloius. You will need all the help you can get in it. And a Ogre is that extra help to maybe save your butt. :p

Id bet there are equal numbers of times where stun immunity getting a spell off saves you as there are where the 80 extra HP a standing Troll gets over a minute of regening, will save you.

Shamans should never have 100% HP due to always Canning. This also means that Regen is always active, always benefitting. Sure you're getting 300 HP from your torpor per tick. But you can get 312 as a troll or Iksar.

I really wish we had the real classic version of Torpor on here for awhile that would drain 50 mana a tick. That was way more balanced :/.

[DrKvothe]

I think we've all agreed that the racial regen bonus is great while leveling, but there's an ongoing idea in this thread that it only helps with "easy stuff." The suggestion that racial regen doesn't help on hard stuff pre-60 is just plain false. Pre-torpor it's very rarely burst damage that kills a shaman, where not getting bashed means you can cast that one spell that will save you. What's more likely to kill you or force a reset is the additional mana burden of a root break or an add when you were already having trouble holding down the other four. Pre-torpor, if something is doing enough damage that bash is the difference between life and death, it's too tough for you to solo anyways. If you've got more than 2 mobs beating on you, it's because you screwed up somehow. Hopefully you screwed up right next to a wall, otherwise FSI won't get your cast off!

On the other hand, root rotting 4+ mobs is all about 1) the break and 2) mana/hp management. The break is gonna cost you a puppy, and is thus a mana issue itself when attempting to hold down multiple such rooms. You want to hit as many med ticks as possible, you want to position the mobs in such a way that you're not getting hit and if one breaks you can root and still have somewhere to move to, etc. The harder the fight the fewer the med ticks you're going to catch. FSI will save you the occasional extra round, but this should be rare if you're playing properly. Fights are likely to last 6-10 minutes, so regen actually really matters to the total amount of mana you have at your disposal.

Using canni 3 (and assuming the 100 to 47 value on wiki is accurate), at 59 a standing ogre gets ~34 mana per minute while a standing troll gets ~67 mana per minute. If you're missing a lot of med ticks because you're scrambling to keep everything rooted/dotted or you're busy positioning, this is a ridiculous difference. It's a 47 mana per minute difference if you're hitting every med tick.

[Ezalor]

I think we've all agreed that the racial regen bonus is great while leveling, but there's an ongoing idea in this thread that it only helps with "easy stuff." The suggestion that racial regen doesn't help on hard stuff pre-60 is just plain false. Pre-torpor it's very rarely burst damage that kills a shaman, where not getting bashed means you can cast that one spell that will save you. What's more likely to kill you or force a reset is the additional mana burden of a root break or an add when you were already having trouble holding down the other four. Pre-torpor, if something is doing enough damage that bash is the difference between life and death, it's too tough for you to solo anyways. If you've got more than 2 mobs beating on you, it's because you screwed up somehow. Hopefully you screwed up right next to a wall, otherwise FSI won't get your cast off!

On the other hand, root rotting 4+ mobs is all about 1) the break and 2) mana/hp management. The break is gonna cost you a puppy, and is thus a mana issue itself when attempting to hold down multiple such rooms. You want to hit as many med ticks as possible, you want to position the mobs in such a way that you're not getting hit and if one breaks you can root and still have somewhere to move to, etc. The harder the fight the fewer the med ticks you're going to catch. FSI will save you the occasional extra round, but this should be rare if you're playing properly. Fights are likely to last 6-10 minutes, so regen actually really matters to the total amount of mana you have at your disposal.

Using canni 3 (and assuming the 100 to 47 value on wiki is accurate), at 59 a standing ogre gets ~34 mana per minute while a standing troll gets ~67 mana per minute. If you're missing a lot of med ticks because you're scrambling to keep everything rooted/dotted or you're busy positioning, this is a ridiculous difference. It's a 47 mana per minute difference if you're hitting every med tick.

you made a good argument for why regen is good at level 59

but levels 1-49, the regen is not really a big diff

i hope no one thinks they're gonna have fungi regen 1-49 while leveling up

check the graph

http://i.imgur.com/vcysw6K.jpg

[loramin]

Using canni 3 (and assuming the 100 to 47 value on wiki is accurate), at 59 a standing ogre gets ~34 mana per minute while a standing troll gets ~67 mana per minute. If you're missing a lot of med ticks because you're scrambling to keep everything rooted/dotted or you're busy positioning, this is a ridiculous difference. It's a 47 mana per minute difference if you're hitting every med tick.

I'm trying to follow your logic, but having trouble.

Fights don't normally last that long, so can we say a minute is a reasonable average length? If so we're talking about regen Shaman having 47 more mana a fight than a non-regen Shaman. That's about 1/5 of an ice strike, or about 120 direct damage. Maybe a bit more if you use a DoT instead.

Now if we consider fighting a Seafury Cyclops (a green to a 59 shaman), they have 4700 HP. So the difference between a regen shaman and a non-regen shaman is ... 1/40th of a (green) mob's hit points. Perhaps 1/30th if you use a DoT instead (too lazy to calculate).

I just don't see a very convincing argument there: an extra 1/30th of a green mob's HP per fight isn't a very strong reason to pick a race. But to be fair, I'd expect a similar calculation of frontal stun immunity's benefits to be just as unimpressive.

Seems to me the real moral of this story is that neither racial benefit really matters that much, at level 59 at least.

[theaetatus]

Using canni 3 (and assuming the 100 to 47 value on wiki is accurate), at 59 a standing ogre gets ~34 mana per minute while a standing troll gets ~67 mana per minute. If you're missing a lot of med ticks because you're scrambling to keep everything rooted/dotted or you're busy positioning, this is a ridiculous difference. It's a 47 mana per minute difference if you're hitting every med tick.

You're missing the point. Even if, by some miracle, you're not getting hit by anything while you break this tough camp, you're still only getting enough mana for one more slow every 5-6 minutes.

However, it is much more likely you're getting bashed and eating several extra rounds of melee while trying to get off a root or slow, negating the regen bonus entirely and actually ending up with less hp than if you had been an ogre.

Yes, we all know shamans are 'op' and any race will be good at this sort of stuff, but all other things equal, an ogre has a clear advantage at doing tougher stuff. If you're choosing a shaman race and don't care about min/maxing, pick whichever one you prefer the models for. If you are min/maxing, pick ogre.

[citizen1080]

Ogre for solo, iksar for raiding, trolls for blind people (so ugly)

[loramin]

Ogre for solo, iksar for raiding, trolls for blind people (so ugly)

And Barbarian for pragmatic people who don't have the luxury of being able to play EQ all day (and thus don't have time to waste on racial XP penalties or on factioning).

And people who like polar bear hats.

[citizen1080]

And Barbarian for pragmatic people who don't have the luxury of being able to play EQ all day (and thus don't have time to waste on racial XP penalties or on factioning).

And people who like polar bear hats.

^

[Ezalor]

vanity is the only thing that should matter in picking your race

polar bear hats are cool but overall i think barbs are the #2 worst looking shaman besides iksars

[citizen1080]

I <3 my iksar shaman w/ Guise. I get to choose between sexy and sexier.

[iruinedyourday]

vanity is the only thing that should matter in picking your race

polar bear hats are cool but overall i think barbs are the #2 worst looking shaman besides iksars

dude my barb shaman looks like Van Helsing... hes the mo fookn bawse

only one hyphenated word required to win the fashion argument...

eye-patch

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/EQ/vanhellsing.jpg

I challange you to show me a shaman that looks more fuckn vampire slayer than that.

ps thats not a feather hanging from my spear, thats a vampire scalp.

[webrunner5]

Ogre for solo, iksar for raiding, trolls for blind people (so ugly)

Thank you. A person that knows. :D Stun resist DOES matter solo whether you like it or not in Velious when fights last 4 to 5 minutes not 35 seconds like now. duh. :(

[Ezalor]

dude my barb shaman looks like Van Helsing... hes the mo fookn bawse

only one hyphenated word required to win the fashion argument...

eye-patch

i'm biased as i mained a barb shaman on live and am sick of looking at them

they're still not nearly as boring as iksar shamans though

[iruinedyourday]

i'm biased as i mained a barb shaman on live and am sick of looking at them

they're still not nearly as boring as iksar shamans though

im hellof jellous every time I see a troll in full plate...

troll w/ de mask is a tough call from ogre with de mask.. I think i would want Ogre with De mask if i was going to have the ultimate shaman, just so you could always dangle the 'i have frontal stun' & 'i can walk through doors' & I look absolutely the most awesome as a DE.. DE shaman is unarguably the coolest looking shaman.

But damn, Trolls come pretty close! the only downside to troll is you have to wear full plate, or you look like a homeless man... which is ironically how a Ogre looks with or without full plate or full BIS gear.

[arsenalpow]

Skarry has a pretty dope troll shaman. Guise and firepot bound too. I'd still play an iksar if I was forced to play the most unfun raiding class in the game, being giant is weird. The sit animation is weird in first person.

[DrKvothe]

Loramin:I'm trying to follow your logic, but having trouble.

Fights don't normally last that long, so can we say a minute is a reasonable average length? If so we're talking about regen Shaman having 47 more mana a fight than a non-regen Shaman. That's about 1/5 of an ice strike, or about 120 direct damage. Maybe a bit more if you use a DoT instead. I'm assuming the shaman in question has an epic. Any shaman with epic > any shaman without epic, regardless of race, starting stats, or other gear. If you're root-rotting with an epic, 47 more mana is about half a paralyzing earth, and each paralyzing earth is 2 epic clicks long. So 47 mana is ~1300 damage, not 120. Most mobs I was trying to exp off of in my upper 50s took at least 4 epic clicks. See my response below for more details, or check blkcamel's evil shaman guide.

Theaetatus:You're missing the point. Even if, by some miracle, you're not getting hit by anything while you break this tough camp, you're still only getting enough mana for one more slow every 5-6 minutes.

However, it is much more likely you're getting bashed and eating several extra rounds of melee while trying to get off a root or slow, negating the regen bonus entirely and actually ending up with less hp than if you had been an ogre.
Since we're talking about breaking tough rooms, we're talking about a shaman with an epic. Otherwise your mana just isn't going to hold up. The way you break such a room is to send a dog in, PE everything while they kill your puppy, then cycle through with a new PE and epic clicky then tab to next mob and repeat. If mobs are high enough lvl that they tend to break PE early, can toss in a malaisement or malosi too.

[Nycon43]

What awesome velious camps are ogre shaman going to be soloing that won't be poopsocked for months?

[Catashe]

What awesome velious camps are ogre shaman going to be soloing that won't be poopsocked for months?

Nothing.. and add years to that =)

[phro]

What awesome velious camps are ogre shaman going to be soloing that won't be poopsocked for months?
Exactly.

As an ogre you trade double your free HPs recovered in perpetuity for a slight edge on content that .01% of shaman ever attempt.

If you're committed to invest a few hundred hours on a character leveling, raiding, farming torpor and you're sole purpose for the character is to solo crazy stuff then you're one of those obsessive types where the actual leveling is the least investment in time.

Ogre fanboys, please name one mob that was soloed by an Ogre shaman that hasn't also been soloed by a troll shaman at some point.

[citizen1080]

Exactly.

As an ogre you trade double your free HPs recovered in perpetuity for a slight edge on content that .01% of shaman ever attempt.

If you're committed to invest a few hundred hours on a character leveling, raiding, farming torpor and you're sole purpose for the character is to solo crazy stuff then you're one of those obsessive types where the actual leveling is the least investment in time.

Ogre fanboys, please name one mob that was soloed by an Ogre shaman that hasn't also been soloed by a troll shaman at some point.

Western wastes dragons are the Superbowl of shaman solo farming. When anyone brings up ogre being the master race this is usually what they reference. Didn't play a shaman on live till Pop so couldn't tell you if trolls/iksar solo these easily as well.

[Catashe]

Western wastes dragons are the Superbowl of shaman solo farming. When anyone brings up ogre being the master race this is usually what they reference. Didn't play a shaman on live till Pop so couldn't tell you if trolls/iksar solo these easily as well.

Yea and I sure Luclin was close to being out or out when they actually HAD a chance to do them because in Velious people killed them all the time... No one just soloing them for kicks

[Bristlebaner]

I chose ogre for looks and stats. Iksar are cool but their stats are weak.

[theaetatus]

Exactly.

As an ogre you trade double your free HPs recovered in perpetuity for a slight edge on any content where you get hit at all.


Fixed that one for you.


Ogre fanboys, please name one mob that was soloed by an Ogre shaman that hasn't also been soloed by a troll shaman at some point.

Literally no-one has ever claimed ogres can solo content that trolls etc cannot. It just makes soloing harder content slightly easier, just as extra regen makes easy content like buffing raids slightly easier.

[Synthlol]

0.01% of shaman ever attempt.



Wow, one in every ten thousand shaman?

Or do you need to go back to grade school and relearn your numbers?

[phro]

I'd bet the number of shaman who soloed a WW dragon vs the number of shaman created on live would be even lower than that.

[iruinedyourday]

im playing a ogre shaman now, on red. I cant tell if it makes a difference becuse XP is flying at me to fucking fast to know what the hell is going on.

[arsenalpow]

Slowscales soloed Lodi as an iksar with no betabuff, just his own gear

[skorge]

Everyone says ogre all the way as if the entire play experience can be boiled down to a few moments where you're tanking some hits.

Regen is so incredibly huge when you factor in time and the fact that it is always in effect. Canni effectively makes it permanent breeze that stacks with clarity and all your other available mana regen.

Over the course of any moderately leveled character the one with regen will have healed millions and millions of HP for free that you didn't have. With Canni how many more spells will have been able to cast over the same play time? You don't think one of those hundreds of thousands of HPs or one of those single spells will save me or my friends as much as not getting stunned in one situation where shit is already hitting the fan?

Lol I love this debate, and Phro understands why Troll = #1 shaman race, even in Best of the Best tournaments.

Put simply regen > all traits in the game. In fact, regen is so good, Verant made trolls and iksars suffer from the largest exp penalty in the game because of it. They knew enough about basic math to understand exactly what Phro just said here - a troll/iksar shaman regens thousands and thousands of more hps over ogres/barbs giving them more casts via canni/manastone, in their lifetime, allowing them to level faster, powerlevel players easier, group with people easier, etc. Regen is KING yo.

Also, if you think that ogre shaman can solo mobs that trolls/barbs/iks can't then you are dead wrong. That frontal stun immunity racial ogres have is just "nice" to have, that is all. Regen is also "nice" to have. Which one do you want? One that is ALWAYS in effect or one that is very rarely in effect?

PS - to those who don't know why I pick trolls as #1, it's the simple fact they can wear and use the JBB (the snare neck is an added bonus). If Iksars could wear the JBB they would get my number #1 pick. The JBB is just too good to pass up, unfortunately, for iksars.

[Teppler]

Also, if you think that ogre shaman can solo mobs that trolls/barbs/iks can't then you are dead wrong. That frontal stun immunity racial ogres have is just "nice" to have, that is all. Regen is also "nice" to have. Which one do you want? One that is ALWAYS in effect or one that is very rarely in effect?


The one that's "nice" to have that is more likely to help on the more challenging encounters.

[Widan]

Ogre on red or don't play a shaman imo

[douglas1999]

Regen is nice and on paper it sounds good to have it as a base attribute, but I can't remember a time I've ever noticed one shaman to be particularly more effective than another in a group situation based on their race. And as far as playing a shaman, I've always played barb mainly because I like not being hated everywhere, and once you have an epic\torpor and to a lesser extent a jbb you are so ridiculously overpowered it really does not mean jack shit what race you are.

Also I just like how barbs look. Best plate helmet graphics in the game.

[iruinedyourday]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/EQ/worshipme.jpg

[theaetatus]

Also, if you think that ogre shaman can solo mobs that trolls/barbs/iks can't then you are dead wrong. That frontal stun immunity racial ogres have is just "nice" to have, that is all. Regen is also "nice" to have. Which one do you want? One that is ALWAYS in effect or one that is very rarely in effect?


I love it... No-one ever claims this but it's always the reply when people disagree with ogres being on top.

I'll take the racial ability that works best when doing tougher content, not the ability that works best when doing easy stuff, because, easy stuff is always easy.

[Synthlol]

I love it... No-one ever claims this but it's always the reply when people disagree with ogres being on top.

At this point, anyone who claims that the optimal race for a shaman (in terms of high-end solo content) is not ogre is simply attempting to rationalize not choosing an ogre.

Misrepresenting the opposing argument is just one of the ways they accomplish this.

[Bristlebaner]

The real issue is by rolling any race but ogre...you unfortunately are not an ogre.

[DrKvothe]

At this point, anyone who claims that the optimal race for a shaman (in terms of high-end solo content) is not ogre is simply attempting to rationalize not choosing an ogre.

Misrepresenting the opposing argument is just one of the ways they accomplish this.

Narrowly defining "optimal race for a shaman" by "high-end solo content" is misrepresenting the full scope of the game in an attempt to rationalize not choosing troll. Partial fungi > defense against a predictable and relatively harmless ability.

There will be encounters that you'd rather have a snare clicky than FSI once snare and root stack. Runners r bad.

[Synthlol]

Narrowly defining "optimal race for a shaman" by "high-end solo content" is misrepresenting the full scope of the game in an attempt to rationalize not choosing troll.

I don't have a shaman. No skin in this game. Nice try, though.

[Clark]

Ogre.

[phro]

Remember kids the best reason to be ogre is to be stun immune so you can kill the same dragons that trolls, barbs, and iksar do. It's a must have racial. /s

[theaetatus]

Remember kids, the best reason to be troll is to be able to buff people on raids very slightly faster.

[phro]

Once again you can't get it out of your head that there is more to this game than the very end. If any other race can do what you do then what is your argument?

[Ele]

Once again you can't get it out of your head that there is more to this game than the very end. If any other race can do what you do then what is your argument?

How many rezs do they have to get versus an ogre though?

[Lojik]

Not really any bad choice for shaman race, best fit probably depends on your play style

[Bristlebaner]

If I was a 45 iksar I would be mad I couldn't use mana free clickies in Jaundiced.

[Orruar]

We've had like 30 threads on this already, but yet the ogre-is-best meme persists. FSI is a fairly crappy racial bonus for a class that has the best slows in the game. A slowed mob bashes once every 32 seconds. Many times the mob will kick rather than bash, and many of the bashes miss. The result? FSI stops a frontal stun once every few minutes. Whoopdy-fucking-doo.

I'm a barb. If I could re-roll, I'd go troll. Ogre isn't even on the map. I seriously question whether the people who advocate ogre have actually played a shaman at the high end. How many of you solo HS south or anything else remotely difficult?

[Bristlebaner]

I keep hearing this 32 second nonsense. You do realize mobs don't spawn pre-slowed. Truth bomb.

Being able to cast through stuns when you have have one or more unslowed mobs bashing your face in is very powerful. Again this is a solo focused racial. If you only group you will likely have a tank and thus this is less important.

It's min/max. If you are not worried about being as strong as possible then move along. People play gnome warriors which is proof enough not every player is looking to be optimally built.

[theaetatus]

Once again you can't get it out of your head that there is more to this game than the very end. If any other race can do what you do then what is your argument?

As has been stated many many times, any race can do the harder content. The argument has never been 'which shaman race can solo stuff the others cannot?', it's just a case of min/maxing for specific situations. Min/maxing for easy situations like buffing a raid seems rather pointless, it will be easy for any race of shaman.

Choose between one extra cast of Talisman of Kragg every 10 minutes or completely ignoring bash. One of these will help in difficult situations, the other will not.

[Samoht]

completely ignoring bash

which race gets this bonus? pretty sure i know the answer already (hit: none).

orgre immunity is A) front cone only and B) does not make one immune to push. hits from back and side will still interrupt. multiple mobs hitting you will still interrupt on a failed channel.

ogres do not get to completely ignore bash as implied by many posters here.

[Orruar]

I keep hearing this 32 second nonsense. You do realize mobs don't spawn pre-slowed. Truth bomb.

Being able to cast through stuns when you have have one or more unslowed mobs bashing your face in is very powerful. Again this is a solo focused racial. If you only group you will likely have a tank and thus this is less important.

It's min/max. If you are not worried about being as strong as possible then move along. People play gnome warriors which is proof enough not every player is looking to be optimally built.

You do realize ogres still get interrupts from push, which causes far more interrupts than bash? In any difficult solo situation, an unslowed mob beating on you is going to be an unnecessary risk regardless of what race you are. If you can't figure out how to effectively slow a mob (or multiples) before they're beating on you, you have no place talking about soloing as a shaman. There are several tactics/tools available to make sure you don't have an unslowed mob beating on you.

Honest question here. How often do you solo HS south?

[AstyTZ]

I recently had to go through this decision process, so I'll share my experience.

My main on Live was a troll shaman. My main on The Combine (progression) was a troll shaman. I've had multiple other troll shamans through my EQ career. When I rolled my shaman on P99 in April 2010, I decided to try something different: an ogre shaman. I leveled him up to 50 back in the pre-Kunark days but eventually ended up quitting the server and stripping him.

I have been playing here again for a year now (with a monk main) and recently decided I wanted to un-retire Asty. These were the two choices I gave myself:

-Gear up and continue playing ogre Asty (pros: level 50, full Rune Etched, FSI; cons: no regen, on the same account as my main, looks dumb)
-Delete ogre Asty and reroll as troll Asty (pros: regen, would be on a different account, looks awesome; cons: level 1, no Rune Etched, no FSI)

I couldn't simply keep Asty and just make a new troll shaman, because the name was non-negotiable for me. If I am going to play a shaman, his name is going to be Asty. The account issue ultimately didn't weigh in much - I thought it would be nice to have the ability to allow a guildie/friend to play either the monk or the shaman while I play the other, but that would probably come up so infrequently that it didn't really make a difference.

I will say that I was very very close to deleting my ogre shaman and rerolling as a troll, but not for the reason you might think. My reason was that trolls look infinitely cooler than ogres in my opinion, but there might be some nostalgia there for me since my earlier mains were trolls. I ultimately decided to keep the ogre, and I am very happy with my decision.

Ogre Asty is currently level 55, so no PE yet. I root-rot sometimes up to 6-7 mobs at a time soloing CoM 2nd/3rd floor at the moment (usually just 4 though). 7 is the absolute limit when we're talking using Enstill and keeping the epic rolling on everything, for what it's worth. I'm not sure I would be comfortable with more than 4 as a troll because I wouldn't be nearly as confident in my ability to not die if a couple roots decided to break at the same time. I virtually never get interrupted as an ogre. It's pretty incredible. Having the confidence level to root-rot an extra mob or two compared to a troll helps mitigate any experience I would "lose" due to my slower regen.

As a kid playing a troll shaman, I always underestimated this ability. I remember on Live, if a root broke and I had no room to maneuver (which is often the case in dungeons), I would usually let the mob get to me and do a round before recasting my root. There was no point in starting the spell only to have it get interrupted because you got bashed when the mob reached you. Playing an ogre now and knowing I can soak up that initial bash and still channel my root/heal/etc is very comforting.

I could solo WW dragons on my troll shaman back in the day, and I plan to do so on my ogre eventually as well if I can ever find one of them alive on P99 (probably not). Both can solo the same content and I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.

Side Note: Are there people out that that are concerned with min/maxing that have no aspirations of attaining level 60/torpor? If this is the case, I'd say just play whatever you prefer.

I love trolls. Love 'em. But I gotta go with ogre on this one. After being on both sides of the coin, the only reason I'd play a troll shaman over an ogre shaman at this point would be purely for cosmetic reasons (which is a valid reason in my book).

[theaetatus]

which race gets this bonus? pretty sure i know the answer already (hit: none).

orgre immunity is A) front cone only and B) does not make one immune to push. hits from back and side will still interrupt. multiple mobs hitting you will still interrupt on a failed channel.

ogres do not get to completely ignore bash as implied by many posters here.

Yeah, don't be an idiot and turn away from mobs beating on you while trying to channel a spell. :) It's that simple.

Why are people even bringing up interrupts from push like it's something only ogres are affected by?

[Synthlol]

Once again you can't get it out of your head that there is more to this game than the very end.

This is true, until you do get to the very end.

If any other race can do what you do then what is your argument?

The argument is that they do it more easily.

God, you're thick.

[citizen1080]

I recently had to go through this decision process, so I'll share my experience.

My main on Live was a troll shaman. My main on The Combine (progression) was a troll shaman. I've had multiple other troll shamans through my EQ career. When I rolled my shaman on P99 in April 2010, I decided to try something different: an ogre shaman. I leveled him up to 50 back in the pre-Kunark days but eventually ended up quitting the server and stripping him.

I have been playing here again for a year now (with a monk main) and recently decided I wanted to un-retire Asty. These were the two choices I gave myself:

-Gear up and continue playing ogre Asty (pros: level 50, full Rune Etched, FSI; cons: no regen, on the same account as my main, looks dumb)
-Delete ogre Asty and reroll as troll Asty (pros: regen, would be on a different account, looks awesome; cons: level 1, no Rune Etched, no FSI)

I couldn't simply keep Asty and just make a new troll shaman, because the name was non-negotiable for me. If I am going to play a shaman, his name is going to be Asty. The account issue ultimately didn't weigh in much - I thought it would be nice to have the ability to allow a guildie/friend to play either the monk or the shaman while I play the other, but that would probably come up so infrequently that it didn't really make a difference.

I will say that I was very very close to deleting my ogre shaman and rerolling as a troll, but not for the reason you might think. My reason was that trolls look infinitely cooler than ogres in my opinion, but there might be some nostalgia there for me since my earlier mains were trolls. I ultimately decided to keep the ogre, and I am very happy with my decision.

Ogre Asty is currently level 55, so no PE yet. I root-rot sometimes up to 6-7 mobs at a time soloing CoM 2nd/3rd floor at the moment (usually just 4 though). 7 is the absolute limit when we're talking using Enstill and keeping the epic rolling on everything, for what it's worth. I'm not sure I would be comfortable with more than 4 as a troll because I wouldn't be nearly as confident in my ability to not die if a couple roots decided to break at the same time. I virtually never get interrupted as an ogre. It's pretty incredible. Having the confidence level to root-rot an extra mob or two compared to a troll helps mitigate any experience I would "lose" due to my slower regen.

As a kid playing a troll shaman, I always underestimated this ability. I remember on Live, if a root broke and I had no room to maneuver (which is often the case in dungeons), I would usually let the mob get to me and do a round before recasting my root. There was no point in starting the spell only to have it get interrupted because you got bashed when the mob reached you. Playing an ogre now and knowing I can soak up that initial bash and still channel my root/heal/etc is very comforting.

I could solo WW dragons on my troll shaman back in the day, and I plan to do so on my ogre eventually as well if I can ever find one of them alive on P99 (probably not). Both can solo the same content and I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.

Side Note: Are there people out that that are concerned with min/maxing that have no aspirations of attaining level 60/torpor? If this is the case, I'd say just play whatever you prefer.

I love trolls. Love 'em. But I gotta go with ogre on this one. After being on both sides of the coin, the only reason I'd play a troll shaman over an ogre shaman at this point would be purely for cosmetic reasons (which is a valid reason in my book).

I solo'd up there as well. I have also root rotted 7-8 dogs in KC multiple times with no issues on my iksar shaman. Solo'd parts of HS with no issues as well. My red shaman is ogre..my blue is iksar.

[Orruar]

Why are people even bringing up interrupts from push like it's something only ogres are affected by?

Because interrupts from push are actually far more common than interrupts by bash. The ogre advocates keep pretending like FSI is some kind of amazing ability that means you can cast spells without worrying about interrupts. The truth is that if you play ogre, you still have to plan for interrupts and the best way to solo tough mobs is to ensure they are slowed before you start tanking them. And once slowed, bash interrupts come every few minutes. At that point, the paltry benefit of troll/iksar regen is more valuable.

[AstyTZ]

I solo'd up there as well. I have also root rotted 7-8 dogs in KC multiple times with no issues on my iksar shaman. Solo'd parts of HS with no issues as well. My red shaman is ogre..my blue is iksar.

I am talking pre-Paralyzing Earth - not sure if you are also. In my experience, enstills simply don't last long enough to do more than 7 simultaneously while maintaining the epic dot on each, even at max duration. Most of the discussion points were talking about ogres only being superior at 60/torpor, but I've found there are some tangible pre-60 benefits as well.

Edit: I guess technically you can do 8 (I ran the numbers), but it's tough to work the resist debuff in there because the timing is incredibly tight, and with the root changes, you've very unlikely to get max duration enstills without it.

Root Hits Epic Hits Root Break Epic Break
M1 00:00.0 00:09.0 01:36.0 01:33.0
M2 00:11.5 00:20.5 01:47.5 01:44.5
M3 00:23.0 00:32.0 01:59.0 01:56.0
M4 00:34.5 00:43.5 02:10.5 02:07.5
M5 00:46.0 00:55.0 02:22.0 02:19.0
M6 00:57.5 01:06.5 02:33.5 02:30.5
M7 01:09.0 01:18.0 02:45.0 02:42.0
M8 01:20.5 01:29.5 02:56.5 02:53.5

[Stonecrush]

I've slowly read through this entire thing due to the entertainment value.

When I played Live, I ran an Ogre Warrior, Ogre Shm and an Iksar Necro. I rarely ran into fights I couldn't handle.

On live with AA's and the worn Regen gear it made the ogre shm very nice. Of course racial regen became a rather moot point on Live.

On Project 1999 I am running a Troll shm of the Innorruk flavor (sad there isn't cultural for this yet.). I like the challenge and not relying on frontal stun immunity.

Regen seems very very useful here, compared to Live.

[phro]

As has been stated many many times, any race can do the harder content. The argument has never been 'which shaman race can solo stuff the others cannot?', it's just a case of min/maxing for specific situations. Min/maxing for easy situations like buffing a raid seems rather pointless, it will be easy for any race of shaman.

Choose between one extra cast of Talisman of Kragg every 10 minutes or completely ignoring bash. One of these will help in difficult situations, the other will not.
You're min maxing for an event that will only be possible years from now if ever. This is an emulated server. Are you counting on it to be up once people are bored enough to not be killing those dragons in groups?

Min maxing for an isolated end of career solo event is not min maxing at all unless that is the sole purpose for your character. You may be the best race for soloing dragons, but soloing dragons is not even a fraction of most anyones play time. The fact that not being ogre doesn't preclude you from the same feats makes it an even lazier argument.

[Ele]

Has anyone said gnome yet?

Gnome

[Bristlebaner]

Ogre FSI isn't only for soloing dragons. It helps in every situation where you're taking melee hits.

That's why it's the best racial - because when you're getting face rolled by mobs you will be more likely to get that crucial spell off (root) where as the non-ogre counterpart is more likely to be back at bind point.

Enough of this "It's only for soloing the hardest mobs in the game" stuff.

[citizen1080]

Ogre FSI isn't only for soloing dragons. It helps in every situation where you're taking melee hits.

That's why it's the best racial - because when you're getting face rolled by mobs you will be more likely to get that crucial spell off (root) where as the non-ogre counterpart is more likely to be back at bind point.

Enough of this "It's only for soloing the hardest mobs in the game" stuff.

Apparently you take a lot more hits than the rest of us. I've played epic ogres/barbs/iksar...and while i rolled ogre on red because stuns come more often there. On blue I will take regen all day long.

[phro]

This is true, until you do get to the very end.



The argument is that they do it more easily.

God, you're thick.
The point is that soloing a dragon isn't the measure of a racial. God you're thick.

[phro]

Ogre FSI isn't only for soloing dragons. It helps in every situation where you're taking melee hits.

That's why it's the best racial - because when you're getting face rolled by mobs you will be more likely to get that crucial spell off (root) where as the non-ogre counterpart is more likely to be back at bind point.

Enough of this "It's only for soloing the hardest mobs in the game" stuff.
And you've quantified this advantage how?

Summary ogre argument so far:
1) Troll/Iksar is the best race when not taking hits.
2) Ogre is the best race when taking hits.

4) Therefore Ogre is the best race.

[iruinedyourday]

I just dinged 30 on my ogre shaman, compared to barb.. and GOD DAMN this shit is a pain in the ass to buy spells and sell loot for plat.. I mean, god damn the troll Sham guild leader killed me while i was going to train! lol

One thing I noticed was while doing some soloing was I was waiting for the mob to run up and hit me, before I began casting root.

Thats a side effect of the barb sham..

soon, I started casting root as the mob was running at me, he'd hit me halfway through cast, AND ID CONTINUE CASTING LOL

thats pretty cool -______________-

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/EQ/worshipme.jpg

[Orruar]

I just dinged 30 on my ogre shaman, compared to barb.. and GOD DAMN this shit is a pain in the ass to buy spells and sell loot for plat.. I mean, god damn the troll Sham guild leader killed me while i was going to train! lol

One thing I noticed was while doing some soloing was I was waiting for the mob to run up and hit me, before I began casting root.

Thats a side effect of the barb sham..

soon, I started casting root as the mob was running at me, he'd hit me halfway through cast, AND ID CONTINUE CASTING LOL

thats pretty cool -______________-


Even as an ogre, you can be interrupted by push. So it's still ideal to time spells in between melee swings. This is one problem with people who play ogre. They think FSI means they don't need to pay attention to when they are casting spells and they end up playing sub-optimally. If you're looking to min/max, you're going to be paying attention to mob swing timers anyway. Ogre is really the choice for lazy people, not for the power gamer.

[iruinedyourday]

Even as an ogre, you can be interrupted by push. So it's still ideal to time spells in between melee swings. This is one problem with people who play ogre. They think FSI means they don't need to pay attention to when they are casting spells and they end up playing sub-optimally. If you're looking to min/max, you're going to be paying attention to mob swing timers anyway. Ogre is really the choice for lazy people, not for the power gamer.

no no, this is out of experience.

yes of course you can be pushed to interrupt spells

but when what I've been fighting SO FAR, it is how i described. I'm not playing imaginary eq in my head here.

mob runs at me to attack, it hits me, I haven't been interrupted. fact.

on barb did that same exact thing with the exact same mobs cause me to get interrupted? yes.

is the strategy different, and in this particular case nice? absolutely.

will a mob push me in the future? duh.

[Stonecrush]

I pull with slow if I care, or I nuke if I don't. Then I time the next spell for after the initial hit which that hit usually falls in the cool down spot.

Some people like to play the game on Hard mode instead of meh, I want it to be easy and not worry about timing.

[Grobb 1999]

Troll shaman with inn click necklace-

Being able to control runners in tight dungeons/packed mobs without having to root and take the extra hits from lvl 15 till forever equals = XP saved (from add deaths) or time/mana over the coarse of your entire playing time.

If you're a smart solo'r it's not even a argument.

/thread. I'll get the lights

[phro]

Some people like to play the game on Hard mode instead of meh, I want it to be easy and not worry about timing.
Agreed. It's highly confusing for me to argue with people who base the decision on being able to do the hardest things in game, while they simultaneously advocate which race you HAVE to be to make it easier.

[theaetatus]

No-one is saying which race you HAVE to be or even basing decisions on the hardest things in game, simply that if you're min/maxing (what this question is all about) you should min/max for difficult situations, i.e. being hit by multiple or hard-hitting mobs for whatever reason (breaking camps, root breaks, trains, difficult solo mobs), not for easy situations (being able to cast 1 more Talisman of Kragg every 10 minutes while buffing a raid).

[BlkCamel]

No-one is saying which race you HAVE to be or even basing decisions on the hardest things in game, simply that if you're min/maxing (what this question is all about) you should min/max for difficult situations, i.e. being hit by multiple or hard-hitting mobs for whatever reason (breaking camps, root breaks, trains, difficult solo mobs), not for easy situations (being able to cast 1 more Talisman of Kragg every 10 minutes while buffing a raid).

/Agree, Too many people are getting caught up in this preach mentality. No one is saying you have to be this to do that, you have to be this, or your not as good as that. No one is trying to convince anyone that already made a Shaman what to do, but giving insight to a new Shaman who has yet to choose. Add to the discussion don't get defensive.

All Shaman are powerful, All Shaman have to deal with push, All Shaman have techniques to deal with situations (That's why we're Shaman), but some feel some Racial Abilities are better than others. They have laid out their arguments, just as you and anyone else can, for why they think what they think. No one has to take any of this personal, no one is trying to make anyone question why they chose what they chose.

I played a Barb Shaman on live 99-06, at first I knew no different and loved it. But as I grew and learned more about the game I envied the Troll's regen the most. Then the game progressed and new expansions applied new difficulties which enlightened me and others to the benefits of certain skills.

Yes regen is always on and is great. Free Fungi when sitting and half a Fungi while standing. All Shaman want/need Fungi so Troll equal Fungi+/1.5!!! Except what me and many others have realized is that, it is not what a racial ability can do for you, but what a racial ability can do for others.

Frontal Stun Immunity allows you to:

Slow any mob @ 100% and know you can channel the next spell no matter what(Root/Heal/Slow on another mob);

Off-tank any mob knowing you can still Slow/Root/Heal others while off-tanking said mob (using slow for mass agro);

Slow-tank any mob (which means can JBB on said mob, without worry about root breaking), and still root/rot 4+ other mobs at the same time;

Channel Slow/Torpor/Root/Gate/Sup Heal/Epic click with confidence spell will go off. How many times have you non Ogre's tried to heal/root/torp/gate/epic and had it interrupted and you had to try again? How many times has this caused you death? How many times have you really been interrupted while epic clicking/JBB clicking/Rooting/Slowing/Healing??

Check your logs and post them, I bet if Ogre and Non-Ogre Shaman posted their logs the amount of failed casts is 5X higher for non Ogre. JBB/Epic/Torpor are all long casts, an interrupt anytime is a major loss in efficiency. Ogre's just do not have to worry about this, like other races do.

Again to address push, for those that want to use this argument. All Shaman have to deal with push, because of this we all use walls/environment to negate this. If all Shaman have to deal with push, and all Shaman are using technique to mitigate this, then it is not something that should be used as an argument against one race or the other. All races have to deal with push and do, if they don't, they don't make it to 60 with Torpor and Epic. Push is not an issue because we all know how to deal with it. The push argument really needs to be dropped by all parties.:D

[Turp]

Has anyone said gnome yet?

Gnome
Anything is possible...
http://wiki.project1999.com/images/EQ000173.jpg


My vote is robe resist>frontal immunity.
When are you going to be tanking AoW?
http://wiki.project1999.com/images/EQ000097.jpg

[Orruar]

Did they change how push/damage interrupts casting on P99? Last I checked, cornering yourself did absolutely nothing to reduce the number of interrupts.

[fiveeauxfour]

dat ikky shammer in the robe is mucho sexo

[BlkCamel]

dat ikky shammer in the robe is mucho sexo

/Agree :D

I do wish Ogre could use or IGS!:D

[BlkCamel]

Did they change how push/damage interrupts casting on P99? Last I checked, cornering yourself did absolutely nothing to reduce the number of interrupts.

Walls/Corners work great to reduce interrupts by push, so I am not sure why you would have problems.:D

[Orruar]

Walls/Corners work great to reduce interrupts by push, so I am not sure why you would have problems.:D

I know that's how it worked on live, but are you sure it works that way here? Long ago when I tested it, being cornered did 0 to help you. It was as if it was coded such that the chance of interrupt was purely based on how much damage you received, and not your starting/ending location. If they have since changed it, that does improve things for the ogre argument. You can always time around bash and so troll/iksar are still better at 60 due to their regen, but certainly ogre is less of a worthless race if damage interrupts are much rarer than they were previously.

[kaev]

They changed interrupts to be mostly push-based some time back. Was a great change, controlling your position and being able to take advantage of terrain to minimize interrupts (or maximize your interrupt chance vs chealing/gating NPCs) was so big on live, it's nice to have it here.

[BlkCamel]

I know that's how it worked on live, but are you sure it works that way here? Long ago when I tested it, being cornered did 0 to help you. It was as if it was coded such that the chance of interrupt was purely based on how much damage you received, and not your starting/ending location. If they have since changed it, that does improve things for the ogre argument. You can always time around bash and so troll/iksar are still better at 60 due to their regen, but certainly ogre is less of a worthless race if damage interrupts are much rarer than they were previously.

There have been changes to the way channeling works on this server since its inception. Most recently Haynar has been working on these types of things, his most recent change actually made it harder to channel from moves. But yes walls very effective.

Patch Notes: December 1st, 2014

Haynar: Moved player channeling checks based on distance moved to a linear model. This makes it a little more difficult to channel with small moves.